Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet without any value or legal power

[fxsurfer]

And what can you do with your fiat money (Dollars, Euros, etc.) if noone accepts it anymore because too much of it was printed and now noone wants the paper anymore? How much Bitcoins can you print? Where is the inflation, in fiat or in Bitcoins?

It's all a question of trust. As long as people (not all of course) trust in bitcoin and are willing to pay for it, there is a worth of the coins. Same goes for fiat and all currencies and assets.

I already answered this. Since Dollars are backed by debt, and debt is backed by collateral of specified immovable or movable property, if nobody wants to accept dollars those who recieved the loans are forced to accept them since otherwise they would not be able to repay their debts, a legal case would be established against them, and the bank would take their property. No such legal obligations are behind Bitcoins as the software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations. That's why, on their own, Bitcoins are completely useless.

[jekjekman]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

Good luck to your opinion though but I just withdrawn with my Bitcoin into my Fiat local money amounting $1000 yesterday and I guarantee you that it is not an empty numbers because I am now spending it with my things and food. This is a modern technology digital currency and we are here in the digital world so I think it is necessary to have it, they are still haters that really can't accept that fact.

Bitcoins as of now when I am typing this is backed up by $72,987,343,018 and with that I am confident that it has a value and not an empty numbers because it is full of numbers that resulted of billions. It is true that Bitcoin is not tangible but it has a value right now even you deny it all day.

[iram1011]

Right, Bitcoin doesn't have any "intrinsic value", but so does the $1 bill. In truth, almost nothing in the world of trading and money has “intrinsic value.” Money has only the value that is ascribed to it over time. Fiat currency, issued by nations, has always faced distrust from skeptics who say it is backed only a government’s good faith. Then comes gold, gold itself has no intrinsic value. Its supply is limited (as is bitcoin, a strength of the digital currency), creating a relationship between supply and demand that cannot easily be manipulated. But gold itself has no value per se other than that ascribed to it by humans over time.

Bitcoin is disruptive technology opening new avenues of exchange and enrichment, empowering individuals, and weakening the hold of the state and large corporations, it do have potential even if the price is running on faith and supply and demand. It can sustain its value.

[Pursuer]

it always amuses me to see how some people go through all the trouble of creating a new account, typing some long text on a "bitcoin oriented forum" which majority of its users understand bitcoin even if it is little understanding, and then they speak of bitcoin without any understanding of it.

saying it on a regular forum that regular people visit may fool one or two gullible ones, but here....

[fxsurfer]

Good luck to your opinion though but I just withdrawn with my Bitcoin into my Fiat local money amounting $1000 yesterday and I guarantee you that it is not an empty numbers because I am now spending it with my things and food. This is a modern technology digital currency and we are here in the digital world so I think it is necessary to have it, they are still haters that really can't accept that fact.

Bitcoins as of now when I am typing this is backed up by $72,987,343,018 and with that I am confident that it has a value and not an empty numbers because it is full of numbers that resulted of billions. It is true that Bitcoin is not tangible but it has a value right now even you deny it all day.

Of course that you can exchange Bitcoins for fiat, goods and services - this is their basic purpose, that's why they even exist in the first place and this is how those who inveneted them are coming into possession of real property in exchange for nothing.

What I am arguing is that Bitcoins are just emptly numbers without any real value to its owner - he can't eat them, drink them, wear them, drive them, sit on them, enter into them, please the aesthetic senses with them or made a legal case to come into possession of goods and services with such capacities, like in the case of fiat. Simply put, those who invented Bitcoin received real market values in the form of goods, services and fiat, in exchange for some empty numbers recorded in a public ledger called a blockchain. Can this blockchain be used to satisfy human needs? No. Can this blockchain be used to establish a legal case and get some kind of value out of it? No. Thus, Bitcoin is neither good nor service nor money not asset, but instead it is some empty number on the internet.

[BingoDog]

Everyone has the right to the opinion, I can't deny that but I would like to see some real agruments and informations for whatever the attitude is. Bitcoin has the value that can't be measured on traditional way like classic fiat currencies and not the same rules can't be applied. But for understanding that some knowledge about bitcoin, cryptocurrencies and blockchain is needed but that is obviously mising here.

[fxsurfer]

Right, Bitcoin doesn't have any "intrinsic value", but so does the $1 bill. In truth, almost nothing in the world of trading and money has “intrinsic value.” Money has only the value that is ascribed to it over time. Fiat currency, issued by nations, has always faced distrust from skeptics who say it is backed only a government’s good faith. Then comes gold, gold itself has no intrinsic value. Its supply is limited (as is bitcoin, a strength of the digital currency), creating a relationship between supply and demand that cannot easily be manipulated. But gold itself has no value per se other than that ascribed to it by humans over time.

Bitcoin is disruptive technology opening new avenues of exchange and enrichment, empowering individuals, and weakening the hold of the state and large corporations, it do have potential even if the price is running on faith and supply and demand. It can sustain its value.

That is not true. Money has intrinsic value because it is backed by debt, while debt is backed by imovable or movable property. In the past, monetary system was based on a gold standard. Today, monetary system is based on a property standard.

[paul00]

It is millenial and bitcoin is part of it where another alternative way of investment has been created. We should not compare it in banks where we use to have the actual cash on our side which will be deposited to our bank accounts. I think it's better to align it with stocks. Maybe it is also an empty numbers for some but it has its own values where we can convert it. Bitcoin has its own terms and policy and so far i have not heard of anyone yet who has been denied for it bitcoin value once converted or encashed to authorized partners.

[hendra147]

i doubt bank have the money enough to all people, if all people withdraw his money from bank to cash, im sure bank didnt have money to pay all customer, for me the number balance in bank is just number no more.

[RelBunny]

Right, Bitcoin doesn't have any "intrinsic value", but so does the $1 bill. In truth, almost nothing in the world of trading and money has “intrinsic value.” Money has only the value that is ascribed to it over time. Fiat currency, issued by nations, has always faced distrust from skeptics who say it is backed only a government’s good faith. Then comes gold, gold itself has no intrinsic value. Its supply is limited (as is bitcoin, a strength of the digital currency), creating a relationship between supply and demand that cannot easily be manipulated. But gold itself has no value per se other than that ascribed to it by humans over time.

Bitcoin is disruptive technology opening new avenues of exchange and enrichment, empowering individuals, and weakening the hold of the state and large corporations, it do have potential even if the price is running on faith and supply and demand. It can sustain its value.

That is not true. Money has intrinsic value because it is backed by debt, while debt is backed by imovable or movable property. In the past, monetary system was based on a gold standard. Today, monetary system is based on a property standard.

You used one word right, and i made it bold for you. Today.
What you lack of is vision of the (very near) future. And lack of understanding what bitcoin actually is and how it works.
And you have delusions about currently used money.

And you're just repeating yourself constantly without really discussing anything, referring only to the points where you can basically copy-paste what you already said.

So yes, congratulations, you are officialy a troll on some forum.

[krishnapramod]

You have been quite repetitive about numbers. In simple words, Bitcoin is mathematical/cryptographical representation of money, programmable money. As far its value is concerned, it is again quite simple, utility, Bitcoin has all the attributes of money, be it store of value, unit of account, and medium of exchange. Yeah right now Bitcoin isn't a reliable medium of exchange, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be. To make it more simple, as with any currency, Bitcoins value comes from its perceived value, people who use it and think it's valuable.

Yeah, Fiat money is debt and debt is Fiat. Backed by debt and value generated by enforcement. Money is created when loans are issued and debts incurred; money is extinguished when loans are repaid.

If all the bank loans were paid up, no one would have a bank depo­sit, and there would not be a dol­lar of cur­rency or coin in cir­cu­la­tion. This is a stag­ger­ing thought. We are com­pletely depen­dent on the com­mer­cial banks for our money. Someone has to bor­row every dol­lar we have in cir­cu­la­tion, cash or cre­dit. If the banks create ample syn­the­tic money, we are pro­s­per­ous; if not, we starve. We are abso­lutely with­out a per­manent mone­tary sys­tem.  When one gets a com­plete grasp upon the pic­ture, the tra­gic absur­dity of our hope­less posi­tion is almost in­cred­ible. - Robert H. Hem­phill

[eternalgloom]

And what can you do with your fiat money (Dollars, Euros, etc.) if noone accepts it anymore because too much of it was printed and now noone wants the paper anymore? How much Bitcoins can you print? Where is the inflation, in fiat or in Bitcoins?

It's all a question of trust. As long as people (not all of course) trust in bitcoin and are willing to pay for it, there is a worth of the coins. Same goes for fiat and all currencies and assets.

I already answered this. Since Dollars are backed by debt, and debt is backed by collateral of specified immovable or movable property, if nobody wants to accept dollars those who recieved the loans are forced to accept them since otherwise they would not be able to repay their debts, a legal case would be established against them, and the bank would take their property. No such legal obligations are behind Bitcoins as the software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations. That's why, on their own, Bitcoins are completely useless.

But fiat currency can also lose almost all value though, maybe it's unlikely that the Dollar or Euro would, but there are other examples of currencies losing all value.

Just take a look at Venezuela or Zimbabwe, their currency lost pretty much all value. I don't know what that meant for debts in those currencies.

[Carmen01]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

legal power yes but not no value read here in forum for your knowledge more about bitcoin because this is so much good like you say power i think bitcoin is everything here you can ask to help you and learn by other ideas to read only with no pay in terms of earnings and etc

[jc89]

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

If my analysis is correct, I think that the same can be said to money. If nobody wants to accept them they are just pieces of paper with numbers, places and faces of known person in them. Everything in this world can lose its value if no one acknowledge it and that includes money not just bitcoin. We know that btc is valueless when it started but then people started realizing its value thus making it valuable to people like me. I just hope you're not one of those people who speak rudely of btc then later on purchased and invested in it.

[Hagmonar]

I think there is no deferent for fiat and butcoins they are they same that there is a value for people but if you realy understand bitcoin then you can say that bitcoin is superior specialy in securety and and fastest transaction

[el kaka22]

I think it's the same with cash, if no one wants to use it then the money is the same as paper can be worthless. different again with gold because gold is no price is not the same as cash. while the price of money in clay from his nominal writing.

In fact it is depending on the interest of the people. some time when we take interest in some thing its value start  increasing, but when we ignore it then it also lose it value, and i think we have very good examples from our daily life. For example if we study Doge it was in its peak position when people were taking interest in it, but later one due to lack of the interest of the people Doge price start decreasing and now it is about to die.

the first thing that you said i agree with that, its how the people accept it, whose speculations that OP raises are already been ask before hand, we are now in the stage where peoples interest are already been gathered the value of this great investment  already been supported by silent businesses and yet a lots of establishment are also setting their business integrating with btc.

Any object or idea that is supported by the common public will gain power with time and once this phenomenon takes place, no matter how hard a haters try to kill that, it won't disappear.
Bitcoin is in power now and many people are completely depending upon bitcoin. It also has no owner due to its decentralized nature so it will live a life equal to the planet's remaining life.

[Jake052478]

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

Actually, this is the reason why China had to stop the exchange of ICO in their country.  The lack of legal basis is the main reason.  Korea is following through.  Maybe because, it is hard to imposed tax on the transaction being made with this digital currency.  Measuring it is also impossible because there are no regulations as to the usage of it.  I don't know, but for as long as it has not been resolved, this problem  will eventually caught itself in limbo.  Unless, lawmakers will try to regulated specially the problem of how to taxed cryptocurrency.

[atc1-REAL]

While what you say was true at a point, say during 2009-11, now its market value will continue to keep it running as perceived value is a big thing in the market. And some countries have started to accept its value as a defacto asset, so that will further legitimize this system.

[miyaka26]

Bitcoin is literally the internet of money, don't presume that it has no value or just an empty coin over the internet network because it has no physical manifestation or you cannot touch it in your own bare hands, dollars, gold and any other forms of money has no value at all if there is no demand of it, precious metal is expensive because it lacks supply.

[dothebeats]

Geez, even those numbers on your bank account don't really mean anything, but because the government shoves this shit into our asses, we can't do anything but agree that these papers do have value.

Let's get back to your logic: if someone doesn't agree that this piece of paper and numbers on my bank account has value, can I do something about it? No. Honestly we all just believe that these numbers, papers and nickel/brass/whatever carry value and legal liability because the government told us so. I mean, I can make my own money out of paper, draw it with crayons and let people believe that it's worth something, right? As long as someone agrees with me, my piece of paper will carry value.

Everything in this world really is worthless at start, but because groups of people keep on agreeing that something is worth X, it becomes valuable and carries value, same as bitcoins, dollar, gold, oil and whatnot.