Open letter to Theymos regarding Butterfly Labs (BFL)

[Maged]

No, they will not receive a scammer tag over the matter of their ASICs being late until several months go by with no progress. Stop asking.

How about for failing to pay up on bets posted on this forum?

Theymos is looking (has looked?) at that. I'm not sure where that is at. Personally, I don't want to have to look at it, since anything BFL-related is extremely time-consuming.

EDIT: It looks like this is resolved, at least for BFL:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content/134-butterfly-labs-donates-1000-btc-charity-bitcoin-related-projects.html

No, they will not receive a scammer tag over the matter of their ASICs being late until several months go by with no progress. Stop asking.

Does selling raw chips and offering people to "upgrade" their fully functional miner orders to useless chips count as progress ?

Yes, absolutely. It means they have at least the chips.

[San1ty]

It's ridiculous that we are still taking about this, at least it seems the moderators here have some common sense:
Being Ridiculously Late, Twisting the Truth, Being bad ad PR != SCAMMING

All this really is, is bad management of the project they started, nothing more.

[ripple]

Selling chips doesn't confirm BFL have chips in stock.

BFL labs announcement states: "Chip delivery schedule is approximately 100 days through end packaging once your order is placed."

Note the use of the word "approximately". Approximately can be interpreted many ways by a company that has little respect for ethics or values.  

What is more certain than their delivery schedule, is the concern that by the time customers receive a rig from BFL, that the difficulty level will be drastically higher, due to the glut of chips on the market from Avalon and others.

Quote from: Kouye on Today at 00:55:25
  Does selling raw chips and offering people to "upgrade" their fully functional miner orders to useless chips count as progress ?

Quote from: Maged on 04 June 2013, 05:55:26
  Yes, absolutely. It means they have at least the chips.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/3014-butterfly-labs-announces-bulk-chip-sales.html

A lot of people are going to be cancelling their orders for mining equipment with BFL due to the very late delivery schedule.  BFL is not going to be too much worried about this as they have already collected tens of millions of US Dollars from their pre-order scam.  They are comfortably sitting on high-interest earning advance monies obtained at interest-free rates from customers, which would never have been obtainable from financing houses or banks.

Consider if you were a director of BFL, and assuming you have the ethics of which we have become aware, then would you care if customers cancelled a few orders.  Probably not, as you would be concentrating on using the millions of dollars in pre-order money you have collected for new Ponzi-type investment schemes.

So don't think of your cancelled orders as completely wasted... so not only will you have helped finance the creation of bitcoins by the four secret BFL mining farms in Kansas, but you will also have been individually helping finance director's holiday homes in Costa Rica.

[SGExodus]

What's up with the Moderators and Owner of this forum to side with BFL so much?   Selling your soul just because of the ads revenue?

No honest company continue to advertise their products and accepting pre-order when they can't deliver their products within reasonable time frame.   They should have stopped taking pre-order long time ago until they can fulfill at least 50% of their backlog.

At this point, they are behaving like typical ponzi.   Using money collected from recent order to refund the past order customer.

Stamp them with a Scammer Tag until they can clear at least 50% of their back order.   

Otherwise, you guys are equally liable for assisted scamming.

[becoin]

They are simply patological liers. As of now, they didn't stole anyone's money.

Oh, they did. They did! They refused to honor full bitcoin refunds. They stole a dozen of bitcoins from me alone!

[wrenchmonkey]

No, they will not receive a scammer tag over the matter of their ASICs being late until several months go by with no progress. Stop asking.

Does selling raw chips and offering people to "upgrade" their fully functional miner orders to useless chips count as progress ?

No, but shipping the first month's worth of Jalapeno orders (as of yesterday) does....

It's ridiculous that we are still taking about this, at least it seems the moderators here have some common sense:
Being Ridiculously Late, Twisting the Truth, Being bad ad PR != SCAMMING

All this really is, is bad management of the project they started, nothing more.

Exactly. Having management/PR issues =/= "scamming", it just = lots of pissed off customers, many of whom are too big of pussies to just get a refund if they can't take the wait.

They are simply patological liers. As of now, they didn't stole anyone's money.

Oh, they did. They did! They refused to honor full bitcoin refunds. They stole a dozen of bitcoins from me alone!

Businesses are not required to serve as a hedge for you against exchange rate fluctuations. You paid Bitcoin through a service which converted your bitcoin into cash which was paid to them. The exchange rate happened to favor Bitcoin, so you consider yourself entitled to a return on that. Yet if Bitcoin had crashed to 10% of its paid USD value, and they'd tried paying you back the same value in bitcoin, you'd be pitching a fit. If you received a refund, you were given 100% of the value/purchasing power that you paid, on the day you made the payment. You're a fool if you believe that companies are responsible to hedge against exchange rate changes, and pay you the greater of any possible outcome.

[smoothie]

Whats interesting is that if I follow a parallel scenario to the BFL route, I could very well amass 300 BTC from buyers on BitCoinTalk.org

...Then due with as I please for many months (investing, gambling, whatever) and if I am lucky, when my customer(s) become irate. Return to them what they are due.

My benefits from doing this are that I borrowed 300 BTC from the community, made actual income money with it, but failed to live up to expectations for many months. (many months = more than 4)

I can still come out smelling absolutely clean in the eyes of the Mods and Admins by simply returning to the buyers what was theirs minus whatever that income generated or the promises I meant to keep....and I'll never get a SCAMMER Tag.

Why?

Because....that is okay. I got mine, my customers got theirs (minus my promises to keep) and I will never get a Scammer Tag. Why?

Because that is okay as a standard on BitCoinTalk. Am I right?

You seem to think we're private detectives, or the cops. How are we supposed to know what they're doing? Open an investigation? Flash our moderator badge and hand over our BITCOINTALK.ORG warrant? If people feel comfortable leaving their money with them, that's fine and dandy by me, who the hell are we to stop them? People ask for refunds, they get them back. If they stop getting them back, or BFL disappears, then it's time for a scammer tag.

This is a forum, not a police station. Or a nursery for that matter.

BadBear, you don't have to know what they are doing behind the scenes to know they have lied and not delivered on their promises.

"UNTRUSTWORTHY" might be an appropriate tag to give them BFL cowboys? No?

[smoothie]

No, they will not receive a scammer tag over the matter of their ASICs being late until several months go by with no progress. Stop asking.

How about for failing to pay up on bets posted on this forum?

JUST IN:

BFL is now paying themselves in the form of a charity organization they created. No joke. They are literally paying themselves the 1000 BTC without any proof that any of it goes to any charity(s).

[smoothie]

No, they will not receive a scammer tag over the matter of their ASICs being late until several months go by with no progress. Stop asking.

How about for failing to pay up on bets posted on this forum?

Theymos is looking (has looked?) at that. I'm not sure where that is at. Personally, I don't want to have to look at it, since anything BFL-related is extremely time-consuming.

EDIT: It looks like this is resolved, at least for BFL:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content/134-butterfly-labs-donates-1000-btc-charity-bitcoin-related-projects.html

No, they will not receive a scammer tag over the matter of their ASICs being late until several months go by with no progress. Stop asking.

Does selling raw chips and offering people to "upgrade" their fully functional miner orders to useless chips count as progress ?

Yes, absolutely. It means they have at least the chips.

1. So because they made a new website that they own and control and put up that they paid XX btc to Y party then it is all settled? Just take their word for it? Bullshit. Piratat40 could then easily put up on his website "PAID ALL MY INVESTORS BACK PLUS 7% WEEKYL INTEREST" in BIG BOLD letters and be free and clear of being a scammer right? Come on that is some fucked up logic.

2. So if they give customers the option to exchange their WORKING DEVICE ORDER for chips that may or may not be functional at all or even potato chips for that matter, that is progress?

When will you people in control of this forum start to take things a bit more seriously and actually do some research or better yet require that BFL cowboys prove the shit they claim is indeed legit.

I.E. that charity bet could be done through an escrow, say JOHN K.

Well there you go, you folks have all the suggestions you need to determine if BFL is full of shit or not...why am I thinking nothing will come of this?

Oh because so far BFL is going on 12 months without really doing anything in terms of delivering products to their customers. And no 40-60 devices shipped in 2 months time since they got their prototype working is not DELIVERING. It is fraud on so many levels given their initial and continual advertisements of their products from June 2012 until March 2013.

Not to mention concerning their chips you have to wait 100 days. The way I see it is they advertising to sell something as another pre-order after this past year of waiting for their "ASICs" should not be considered progress nor serious at all.

[hayek]

I think we can all agree that the insane amount of time it took for them to get their act together was ridiculous, but in the end they are shipping now and real customers are receiving their ASIC (at a slow pace).

But for the love of god give the scammer tag thing a rest, The blatant trolling might have been funny in 2012, even in early 2013, but now it just got downright boring!

If I sell you something on Ebay and then take a year to ship it that is a scam. The product loses value, especially a competitive product like an ASIC miner.

Try an post criticism on their own forums. It will be deleted. BFL may not be a classic scam but it is absolutely, beyond an shadow of a doubt a disgusting company that mistreats its customers for its own gains.

[farlack]

People who paid 2k bitcoins, expecting to get their product and make a ROI of 30 days or less for a $30,000 product.
Now valued at $250,000 worth of bitcoin, and make their original ROI in how long?


Seems like a pretty legit way to make some money, collect $30,000 in bitcoin, wait for the price to go up, refund in usd keep the $250,000 in bitcoin.

[Maged]

EDIT: It looks like this is resolved, at least for BFL:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content/134-butterfly-labs-donates-1000-btc-charity-bitcoin-related-projects.html

1. So because they made a new website that they own and control and put up that they paid XX btc to Y party then it is all settled? Just take their word for it? Bullshit. Piratat40 could then easily put up on his website "PAID ALL MY INVESTORS BACK PLUS 7% WEEKYL INTEREST" in BIG BOLD letters and be free and clear of being a scammer right? Come on that is some fucked up logic.

It's progress. Proof that the money was given to charity can be provided at a later point within a reasonable time period. Charity organizations don't set themselves up instantly.

[Kouye]

The transactions to Luke and Con Kolivas seem legit (even though some shade remain about the relationship between Luke and BLF).
I couldn't get an easy google confirmation about the EFF address, but didn't have that much time to look into it either.

All in all, I consider they payed off 15% of their bet debt.

[smoothie]

EDIT: It looks like this is resolved, at least for BFL:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content/134-butterfly-labs-donates-1000-btc-charity-bitcoin-related-projects.html

1. So because they made a new website that they own and control and put up that they paid XX btc to Y party then it is all settled? Just take their word for it? Bullshit. Piratat40 could then easily put up on his website "PAID ALL MY INVESTORS BACK PLUS 7% WEEKYL INTEREST" in BIG BOLD letters and be free and clear of being a scammer right? Come on that is some fucked up logic.

It's progress. Proof that the money was given to charity can be provided at a later point within a reasonable time period. Charity organizations don't set themselves up instantly.

Here is my issue, despite all of the signs, the delays, lies, bullshit, etc, you as well as it appears the rest of the mods and theymos are giving BFL too much the "benefit of the doubt".

Even John K is skeptical about being an escrow for BFL chip batches. Doesn't that say something?

I suppose not.

[Maged]

EDIT: It looks like this is resolved, at least for BFL:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content/134-butterfly-labs-donates-1000-btc-charity-bitcoin-related-projects.html

1. So because they made a new website that they own and control and put up that they paid XX btc to Y party then it is all settled? Just take their word for it? Bullshit. Piratat40 could then easily put up on his website "PAID ALL MY INVESTORS BACK PLUS 7% WEEKYL INTEREST" in BIG BOLD letters and be free and clear of being a scammer right? Come on that is some fucked up logic.

It's progress. Proof that the money was given to charity can be provided at a later point within a reasonable time period. Charity organizations don't set themselves up instantly.

Here is my issue, despite all of the signs, the delays, lies, bullshit, etc, you as well as it appears the rest of the mods and theymos are giving BFL too much the "benefit of the doubt".

Even John K is skeptical about being an escrow for BFL chip batches. Doesn't that say something?

I suppose not.

Don't get me or the other mods wrong, we absolutely believe that BFL is mismanaged and is unlikely to deliver as promised, but that doesn't mean they are scamming anybody. Our personal opinions have no bearing on the matter.

[smoothie]

EDIT: It looks like this is resolved, at least for BFL:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content/134-butterfly-labs-donates-1000-btc-charity-bitcoin-related-projects.html

1. So because they made a new website that they own and control and put up that they paid XX btc to Y party then it is all settled? Just take their word for it? Bullshit. Piratat40 could then easily put up on his website "PAID ALL MY INVESTORS BACK PLUS 7% WEEKYL INTEREST" in BIG BOLD letters and be free and clear of being a scammer right? Come on that is some fucked up logic.

It's progress. Proof that the money was given to charity can be provided at a later point within a reasonable time period. Charity organizations don't set themselves up instantly.

Here is my issue, despite all of the signs, the delays, lies, bullshit, etc, you as well as it appears the rest of the mods and theymos are giving BFL too much the "benefit of the doubt".

Even John K is skeptical about being an escrow for BFL chip batches. Doesn't that say something?

I suppose not.

Don't get me or the other mods wrong, we absolutely believe that BFL is mismanaged and is unlikely to deliver as promised, but that doesn't mean they are scamming anybody. Our personal opinions have no bearing on the matter.

Perhaps then it would be a good faith gesture to turn down any and all BFL advertisements on bitcointalk?

Seems fair given you folks don't believe BFL can deliver on their promises, the forum shouldn't be enabling more broken promises to be perpetuated.

[int03h]

Considering I am a few days away from formally filing a legal complaint against Butterfly Labs, my feelings in this matter should be self-evident.

A few days .. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU WAITING FOR !?

[smoothie]

Considering I am a few days away from formally filing a legal complaint against Butterfly Labs, my feelings in this matter should be self-evident.

A few days .. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU WAITING FOR !?

It isn't a short process to complete nor consider and cost implications.

Chill buddy.

[-ck]

The transactions to Luke and Con Kolivas seem legit (even though some shade remain about the relationship between Luke and BLF).

I definitely received a donation, and it was unsolicited and totally unexpected. Took me half the day to figure out where it had even come from since I received no notification, but it is most welcome.

[smoothie]

The transactions to Luke and Con Kolivas seem legit (even though some shade remain about the relationship between Luke and BLF).

I definitely received a donation, and it was unsolicited and totally unexpected. Took me half the day to figure out where it had even come from since I received no notification, but it is most welcome.

You should thank all the preorder customers of BFL. They likely funded that donation indirectly.