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Author Topic: 3 kinds of ICOs — Protect yourself  (Read 13685 times)
jlp (OP)
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October 20, 2017, 01:31:55 AM
 #201

New technologies that are brought to the market: smart-contracts technology, information stored in public Blockchain, risk segmentation through scoring system, machine learning technology supported by Microsoft (our partner), oracles concept connected to IoT.

They mean nothing unless they improve business metrics, such as improving the combined ratio by X% or improving the returns on investment of the premium pool by Y%, and you can prove these with references.

Insured member pool will invest his premium into mutual pool represented by smart-contract in Blockchain.

So, who is deciding which investments (Bitcoin, stocks or fixed-income) to make? The insured member pool or the smart contract? If it’s the smart contract, how will it pick the investments?

Car crowdsurance claim adjustment can be realized through telematic hardware connected to smart-contracts to know exactly if the accident happened.

What percentage of cars are currently hooked up with telematics that can detect damage? Are you going to turn away customers that don’t have telematics in their cars?

Here the information about the claim is stored safely in Blockchain.

Are you saying that claim info is not stored safely? I’ve rarely heard that this is a business problem in the insurance industry.

As i said before even if the crypto went down for a month, still all the accidents don't happen at once.

Bitcoin can go down 40-50% for 2 years. You’ll likely need to pay claims in that time.

And about our "not going deeper" in insurance market, let me point out that Team members been working in insurance companies and banks for more than 15 years. Head of the biggest Insurance company in Russia Sberbank Insurance is part of the Advisory board, as well as Jake Diner, insurtech professional from Silicon valley.
Please investigate.

As per your request, I investigated. According to LinkedIn, REGA’s CEO, CMO, COO and CFO have never worked in insurance. REGA’s CTO and Chief Architect have no LinkedIn profiles. With all those people and fancy pretentious titles, they cannot get one person experienced in insurance?

They are asking people to give them money to build an insurance business, when they have little understanding of insurance. In addition to this, they are misleading people when they try to make them think that risk is not currently shared. Like many ICOs, REGA is claiming business problems that do not exist.

According to LinkedIn, the CEO was an "Ethereum enthusiast" before starting REGA. You mentioned the Advisor in insurance. If an accountant tells you that he can do surgery because he has an Advisor who is a doctor, would you let him cut open your heart?
Leo Mor
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October 20, 2017, 04:51:51 AM
 #202

New technologies that are brought to the market: smart-contracts technology, information stored in public Blockchain, risk segmentation through scoring system, machine learning technology supported by Microsoft (our partner), oracles concept connected to IoT.

They mean nothing unless they improve business metrics, such as improving the combined ratio by X% or improving the returns on investment of the premium pool by Y%, and you can prove these with references.

Insured member pool will invest his premium into mutual pool represented by smart-contract in Blockchain.

So, who is deciding which investments (Bitcoin, stocks or fixed-income) to make? The insured member pool or the smart contract? If it’s the smart contract, how will it pick the investments?

Car crowdsurance claim adjustment can be realized through telematic hardware connected to smart-contracts to know exactly if the accident happened.

What percentage of cars are currently hooked up with telematics that can detect damage? Are you going to turn away customers that don’t have telematics in their cars?

Here the information about the claim is stored safely in Blockchain.

Are you saying that claim info is not stored safely? I’ve rarely heard that this is a business problem in the insurance industry.

As i said before even if the crypto went down for a month, still all the accidents don't happen at once.

Bitcoin can go down 40-50% for 2 years. You’ll likely need to pay claims in that time.

And about our "not going deeper" in insurance market, let me point out that Team members been working in insurance companies and banks for more than 15 years. Head of the biggest Insurance company in Russia Sberbank Insurance is part of the Advisory board, as well as Jake Diner, insurtech professional from Silicon valley.
Please investigate.

As per your request, I investigated. According to LinkedIn, REGA’s CEO, CMO, COO and CFO have never worked in insurance. REGA’s CTO and Chief Architect have no LinkedIn profiles. With all those people and fancy pretentious titles, they cannot get one person experienced in insurance?

They are asking people to give them money to build an insurance business, when they have little understanding of insurance. In addition to this, they are misleading people when they try to make them think that risk is not currently shared. Like many ICOs, REGA is claiming business problems that do not exist.

According to LinkedIn, the CEO was an "Ethereum enthusiast" before starting REGA. You mentioned the Advisor in insurance. If an accountant tells you that he can do surgery because he has an Advisor who is a doctor, would you let him cut open your heart?

Ok, got it, no voice of reason here, just a prejudice.
Thank you for your opinion
babsjoe
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October 20, 2017, 04:56:33 AM
 #203

Out of these types of ICO,  Spectre is far from crap or scam! The authenticity of Spectre and the problem it's solving are very real. There are life examples of people ruined by brokers all over financial market! Less transparency with brokers has ruined a lot of investor. Spectre platform for brokerless transaction is going to change all of that.
jlp (OP)
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October 20, 2017, 06:38:58 PM
 #204

Great job man. Your attitudes are nicely logic. I can't count the number of useless services given by un-known persons that focuses all their attention to the token and the ICO when they should be spending time making prototypes/products. Would you kindly share your opinions about start-ups on the prediction market using hybrid intelligence into blockchain, i recently saw two projects starting with ICO; Cindicator and Trackr. Also the two famous ICO working on freelance market; Bitjob (freelance for students.ICO just finished) Blocklancer (platform for freelance jobs.ICO sheduled to winter 17/18).
Thanks in advance 

Blocklancer is going to compete against Upwork. This will be a big undertaking. It will require a ton of software development.

It claims these business problems:

Quote
On Blocklancer you only have to pay if you are 100 % satisfied with the work or if certain milestones are reached. And in case of a dispute the token holders will decide. Never again will you encounter unilateral decisions by a biased authority and an unfair money loss.

Is that a problem on Upwork?

Quote
Never depend on a single authority to settle your disputes again. With our token holder tribunal (THT) the decision lies in the hands of thousands of token holders, guaranteeing a fair decision.

Is that a problem on Upwork? If you believe so, then maybe Blocklancer is onto something. I don’t think this is a business problem on Upwork. I would think that even if it was, and if it was replaced by thousands of token holders, then it will likely introduce other problems. How much longer is it going to take to get multiple token holders to arbitrate the dispute?

Blocklancer says that token holders will earn fees from the platform. But how profitable is this business? How much profit is Upwork making? If Upwork is making a lot of profit then Blocklancer has potential. But if Upwork is not profitable, I do not see how Blocklancer will be able to pay token holders, especially if Blocklancer plans to charge a lower to fee to customers.

The biggest issue with Blocklancer is that they want to put job offers on the blockchain. I wonder if they have ever run a full node of Ethereum. Putting job offers, and I assume job postings and messages between contractors and employers, onto the blockchain will make it much bigger than Etheneum’s blockchain. Blocklancer will have significant scaling issues and will unlikely ever be able scale as much as Upwork.
jlp (OP)
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October 20, 2017, 07:45:35 PM
Last edit: October 21, 2017, 05:17:30 PM by jlp
 #205

Spectre is impressive because they have an alpha release that you can test out today. This is good news.

However, Spectre is talking about a niche in the trading world, where traders are trading against the broker.

Brokers are typically middlemen between the buyers and sellers. When you are trading on the big brokerage house accounts, such as Charles Schwab, Fidelity, TD, etc., you are trading against other traders, not brokers.

Spectre is talking about going into the market that MetaQuotes, Spot Option and TechFinancials are in. MetaQuotes is the developer of MT4/MT5. MetaQuotes is not a public company, so it isn’t that big. According to Spot Option’s website, they have 150 employees, so it is small. According to TechFinancials’ website, they have 130 employees, so it is small.

Spectre is really a gambling app that lets traders bet against the house. Some gambling sites allow you to bet against other users. Stockbet will allow you to do both.

An issue with Spectre is that they are telling token buyers that they will earn a dividend. This means that they are blatantly pushing a security and likely breaking securities laws. If regulators start enforcing the laws, they will go after these types of ICOs. If they do, then not only will the project team suffer, but so will the token holders.

One of its videos says:

Quote
Whether a trader wins or loses, is no longer relevant, as neither Spectre nor the token holders make money only on traders’ losses, but instead purely on volume.

This sounds like a lie. If every trader was winning on every trade, then Spectre and the token holders will lose their shirts. This will only be magnified on higher volume.

The last issue with Spectre is the vig, which is 25%. This sounds very high. But I could be wrong because it could be normal for the niche that Spectre is going into. Most financial betting sites charge far less. If few traders use Spectre because of the high vig, then Spectre and its token holders are not going to make much money.
jlp (OP)
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October 20, 2017, 09:18:39 PM
 #206

Tezos Derivatives Crashes Amid Management Infighting after $232 Million ICO
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/tezos-derivatives-crash-amid-management-infighting-and-stalled-development/

Quote
“causing months of delays”

“This infighting has stunted the development of the Tezos network.”

Actually, it looks like they are locked at an impasse:

Quote
“Gevers told The Wall Street Journal that the Breitmans had “attempted to bypass the Swiss legal structure and take over control of the foundation.” He blames them for “causing months of delays in the Tezos project.” The Journal also reports that a lawyer for the Breitmans sent a letter to the foundation threatening to withdraw their support from the project unless Gevers was removed from its board.”

This shows that even if an ICO has Venture Capitalist backing and raises a ton of money, they still cannot prove that they can build a product.

Quote
“the tezzie derivatives offered by HitBTC crashed from $2.30 to $1.70 in an hour, and although they have since ticked up to $1.98, they are still down more than 20% for the day.”

Reduce your risk. Look at ICOs that have already built a prototype or product.

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“There’s a lot of public information on what’s going on with a project, but most people are too lazy to do any real homework.”

This seems to be the case with most ICOs.
Kranushin
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October 20, 2017, 09:51:07 PM
 #207

The instability not in the currency. It is in people's minds.
J. Cooper
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October 20, 2017, 10:03:22 PM
 #208

The problem with ico's nowadays and people who invest in ico's in general is the following. Too many people assume they know what other people want while in reality this is not the case. Just because something is meant to be used by a specific group doesn't  mean they will use it on a regular basis. So essentially you can divide the last group of legitimate ico's into 2. Legitimate ico's but without a use and ico's with a real use case. You would want to invest ik the latter.
jlp (OP)
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October 20, 2017, 11:03:09 PM
Last edit: October 21, 2017, 12:30:36 PM by jlp
 #209

Bancor was another over-bought ICO. Investors gave them $153 million. Now, the market cap is $85 million. That’s a loss of 44%. The price will need to rise 80% for investors to break even.

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October 20, 2017, 11:06:10 PM
 #210

Every one should see this thread. This is very imformative and will save a lot of newbies and some investors their money as we all know that lots if ICO is just a money making way on how they will steal money from the investors. although some ICO's are just crap and not a total scam. So to all investors and newbies out there you should really research the project before investing in. ICO's are risky if you dont really know what it is.

jlp (OP)
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October 21, 2017, 12:34:26 PM
 #211

EOS is one of my favorite projects. Dan Larimer has a great track record in proving that he can build a product. But investors overpaid. Last time I checked a month ago, they raised $230 million. Someone said that they raised $300 million so far. Market cap is at $217 million.
jlp (OP)
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October 21, 2017, 05:14:59 PM
 #212

Hi jlp. You have a great insight on ICOs.  I know i'm being bias since I'm part of the bounty but I think project related to e-sports such as Eloplay has a good shot in being successful in the future. What can you say about it Cheesy

In regards to Eloplay, I think gaming and gambling are two excellent applications for cryptocurrency. After transfer of value (currency) and store of value applications, gaming and gambling are very good fits. Cryptocurrencies enable several things to be done that could not be done previously:

For Gaming:

  • Win real value that can be withdrawn from the game or gaming ecosystem, instead of winning just digital goods that are locked in.
  • Winning real value elevates the fun and excitement of the games and competitions.
  • In essence, crypto currency enables gaming to provide gambling. Gaming (with crypto currency) is an euphemism for gambling. One will argue that gaming has skill whereas gambling does not. This is not true. Lotteries and slots do not involve skill, but many gambling games, such as Black Jack or Poker, involve skill. Financial betting involves skill.

For Gambling:

  • Governments around the world are the biggest operators of gambling. Most governments run big lotteries. Several run huge casinos. But, they block competition, such as online gambling, to maximize their own revenue. Many of them do not have specific laws that outlaw online gambling. If they do, they rarely enforce them because it’s difficult, as they themselves are gambling operators. To block online gambling, they ban credit card companies and banks from sending money to and from gambling sites. Cryptocurrencies can solve this business problem for gambling operators. Cryptocurrencies can unshackle and liberate gambling and let anyone to play from anywhere in the world.
  • Gambling sites are known to cheat or steal from their customers. If the bets are handled by smart contracts, this business problem can be solved.

Therefore, Eloplay is in a great space. They have a product, which is great news, though I didn’t try it. That proves that they can build.

However, they have lots of competition. There have been many eSports or Gaming ICOs, such as Firstblood, Unikoingold, GameCredits, etc. There are more, but I forgot their names. I’m not saying that this industry cannot support many competitors. I just don’t know how many.

Elopay is from that large country east of Europe, which has no extradition agreements with much of the world. This increases the risk for you, because if they defraud you, your government cannot help you.
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October 21, 2017, 09:20:03 PM
 #213

Hi jlp. You have a great insight on ICOs.  I know i'm being bias since I'm part of the bounty but I think project related to e-sports such as Eloplay has a good shot in being successful in the future. What can you say about it Cheesy

In regards to Eloplay, I think gaming and gambling are two excellent applications for cryptocurrency. After transfer of value (currency) and store of value applications, gaming and gambling are very good fits. Cryptocurrencies enable several things to be done that could not be done previously:

For Gaming:

  • Win real value that can be withdrawn from the game or gaming ecosystem, instead of winning just digital goods that are locked in.
  • Winning real value elevates the fun and excitement of the games and competitions.
  • In essence, crypto currency enables gaming to provide gambling. Gaming (with crypto currency) is an euphemism for gambling. One will argue that gaming has skill whereas gambling does not. This is not true. Lotteries and slots do not involve skill, but many gambling games, such as Black Jack or Poker, involve skill. Financial betting involves skill.

For Gambling:

  • Governments around the world are the biggest operators of gambling. Most governments run big lotteries. Several run huge casinos. But, they block competition, such as online gambling, to maximize their own revenue. Many of them do not have specific laws that outlaw online gambling. If they do, they rarely enforce them because it’s difficult, as they themselves are gambling operators. To block online gambling, they ban credit card companies and banks from sending money to and from gambling sites. Cryptocurrencies can solve this business problem for gambling operators. Cryptocurrencies can unshackle and liberate gambling and let anyone to play from anywhere in the world.
  • Gambling sites are known to cheat or steal from their customers. If the bets are handled by smart contracts, this business problem can be solved.

Therefore, Eloplay is in a great space. They have a product, which is great news, though I didn’t try it. That proves that they can build.

However, they have lots of competition. There have been many eSports or Gaming ICOs, such as Firstblood, Unikoingold, GameCredits, etc. There are more, but I forgot their names. I’m not saying that this industry cannot support many competitors. I just don’t know how many.

Elopay is from that large country east of Europe, which has no extradition agreements with much of the world. This increases the risk for you, because if they defraud you, your government cannot help you.

Amazing opinion. What cryptocurrency and Blockchain is suitable for is gaming and gambling. Nice.))
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October 21, 2017, 10:56:40 PM
 #214

I'm watching many ico's these days. Many of them looks like scams and many project seems to be loosers or crap as you said. It's very hard to find legit one.
I'm just trying to be careful and not invest so much in ico's. It's too risky.

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October 21, 2017, 11:08:32 PM
 #215

I'm watching many ico's these days. Many of them looks like scams and many project seems to be loosers or crap as you said. It's very hard to find legit one.
I'm just trying to be careful and not invest so much in ico's. It's too risky.

LONDON - A blind investment in every initial coin offering (ICO) to date, including those that have failed, would have generated an average return of 1,320% for investors, according to a new report.

http://www.businessinsider.com/ico-mangrove-capital-average-returns-crypto-icos-2017-10?r=UK&IR=T
jlp (OP)
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October 22, 2017, 01:17:11 AM
Last edit: October 22, 2017, 04:37:59 PM by jlp
 #216

Tezos had a TON of hype, buzz, big names on its big team, tons of social media activity, thousands of followers, etc., etc., etc. They raised $232 million.

But I was never a fan. I avoided it like it was manure. Their value proposition was formal verification and governance. So what? That’s not a new idea. Who was going to execute it? A couple of people who worked in finance? WTF? What the hell do they know about building large, sophisticated technology projects? What have they built before? Nothing.

More news about Tezos just came out:

A U.S. law firm is investigating a class action lawsuit on behalf of U.S. investors in the Tezos ICO
https://restislaw.com/current-cases-investigations/tezos-initial-coin-offering/

They are seeking a refund to the investors.

This is why it is important that you invest in ICOs from countries with extradition agreements. If they screw you over, your lawyers can help get your money back. If the ICO team is in a corrupt country, kiss your money goodbye.

What Lessons Can Be Learnt From Tezos ICO Debacle
https://cointelegraph.com/news/what-lessons-can-be-learnt-from-tezos-ico-debacle

Quote
“pre deals were done as far back as September 2016 valuing the company at $6m without actually having an code ready to be released, barely in alpha.”

“And then as the ICO approached, Tezos was being valued at $150m - whereby Draper [Venture Capitalist] exited his $6 mln investment in DLS [founders' company] and doubled his money.”

This shows that even an ICO with a big name Venture Capitalist on the team can mean nothing.

Quote
“Since the end of the ICO there has been a diversion of funds to various corporate structures and foundations. But the biggest issue is clearly the early profit taking for DLS and others ahead of retail investors, way before the venture has delivered anything substantial.”

“One has to ask where was the lock-in for the founders and the commitment to deliver what was promised in the White Paper to retail investors?  Is this a clear warning for future ICO token buyers (of app tokens) and investors (securities tokens)?”

Essentially, they were pocketing the money instead of building a prototype or product. It also shows that the White Paper can mean nothing.

Quote
“Why should Mr and Mrs Breitman and the VCs be rewarded before the Tezos proposition deliver on promises made”

“they still have no customers or working production systems!”

“The Brietmans have made their money so why would they stick around to make good on the White Paper?”

“retail investors were hung out to dry.”

Don’t ever invest in an ICO that hasn’t built a prototype or product.
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October 22, 2017, 07:05:25 AM
 #217

what do you think about KMD (Komodo Platform) ?I have been following them closely. They have Decentralzied Exchange - Barterdex project that's really close to Easy to use GUI.
More info about it https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1338970.msg23274990#msg23274990

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October 22, 2017, 08:34:00 AM
 #218

There are 3 kinds of ICOs:

1)  SCAMS

There have always been a lot of scammers, hackers and thieves in the crypto space since day one. Think of Mount Gox. According to Business Insider:

Quote
“…one out of every 16-17 Bitcoins belongs to someone who stole it”

If you don’t think that these thieves are trying to steal money through ICOs or from ICOs, you are kidding yourself. You just need to see the Bitcointalk forum dedicated to scams, or to participate in a Slack channel and you will see the never-ending phishing e-mails trying to lure you to their sites, in order to empty your wallet.

In addition to thieves and scammers, there are those who lie or exaggerate. Many users on Bitcointalk are pump and dumpers.

2)  CRAP

Everyone is desperate to host an ICO to make money. Therefore, they are throwing anything and everything onto the blockchain, including the kitchen sink. They may not be intentionally trying to scam, but they think that they have a good enough idea for an ICO. But these will fail because the blockchain will not solve anything for them. Examples include ICOs that want to put 3D data (which would equate to hundreds of Terabytes of data) or 153 exabytes of medical data on a blockchain. This shows that they are clueless about the blockchain and have never run Bitcoin’s full node. Bitcoin’s blockchain is 120 GB and Ethereum’s blockhain is 200 GB and they are both having scaling problems.

Even though crypto veterans and fans would like it to be, the blockchain is NOT the panacea to every problem in the world.

ICOs are also throwing any kind of business problem that they can make up, into the ICO. If they cannot make up the business problem, they will exaggerate about it. They will fail because the business problem doesn’t really exist, isn’t significant enough, cannot be solved by a blockchain or they do not really have the solution, though they try to make it sound like they do with lots of technical jargon.

Swarm Fund cites this business problem:

Quote
“You need large amounts of money to buy real estate and your money is tied down for an indefinite amount of time.”

This is a lie and not a business problem. You can buy one share of a REIT, and there are thousands of REITs to choose from, and you can sell it one minute later. If they start off their pitch with a lie, what else are they lying about?

Energi cites this business problem:

Quote
“A small number of large energy companies supply millions of customers who are price takers.”

Therefore, the solution is to create more energy suppliers, especially nuclear power plants, which is the cheapest source of electricity. But the project does not propose this. They propose to enable consumers to sell their solar self-generated electricity directly to other consumers.

To do this, consumers should have BOTH solar panels and batteries. This is a TINY market. Though solar panels are growing, it is still a tiny percent of the market and solar generated electricity is still much more expensive than nuclear generated.

Consumers with solar panels do not have that much surplus electricity to sell anyways. They use most of what they generate. Tesla and Enphase hyped up their batteries for solar panel owners to store their surplus electricity. These batteries are NOT selling. Enphase spent over $100 million to develop their battery and partly because of the lack of battery sales, their stock has plummeted approximately 85%.

Of course, the project’s pitch looks impressive at first glance.

3)  LEGITIMATE

There are only a few applications that make a lot of sense for the blockchain: transfer of value (currency), store of value, remittances (disrupt Western Union and bank wire transfers), smart contracts, gaming and gambling. These applications will disrupt their respective industries, because the blockchain will provide a lot of cost-savings or time-savings to the users. There might be other applications that make sense that I missed, but applications proposed by many ICOs do not make sense. Jesus Coin is an extreme example, but there are applications that fall across the spectrum from Jesus Coin to Bitcoin.



YOU CAN REDUCE THE RISK AND THE NUMBER OF ICOS TO REVIEW, BY USING 3 FILTERS

1)  The project’s idea should make sense, but do not base your investment decision purely on the idea. Watch:

“Ideas are like assholes - everyone has one, no one cares”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhJgrEackis

Entrepreneurs typically try to hide their ideas because they think they are the only ones that came up with the ideas. Venture Capitalists tell them to scream their ideas to the public and they’ll see that nobody will steal them. Ideas are a dime a dozen. There are probably 10 other people with the same idea that you have or that the ICO has. The most important factor to success is the ability to execute. This is why Venture Capitalists refuse to sign non-disclosure agreements and rarely invest in startups which haven’t built a prototype or product.

HAS THE ICO TEAM BUILT ANYTHING THAT WE CAN USE TODAY?

If not, take a pass. This is the best evidence that the team can execute. It takes way more skill, time, work and money to build an app than to create a one-page website and video. It shows:

  • The team has proven that they can develop.
  • It is less likely that the team will invest so much and not follow through.

Everything else is useless. Don’t be fooled by big teams, fancy pretentious titles, references, roadmap, video, fancy animations, escrow, blogs, Slack, Telegram, Twitter, Facebook, Reddit and white paper.

One project stacked their team with a dozen people and then lied about them. One member had the title of “Blockchain Expert”, but he worked in Inside Sales until 1.5 months prior. One member had the title “Blockchain Developer”, but he never developed a blockchain before.

Here is an example of a project team using fake photos and fake names: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1949528.msg19485217#msg19485217

Don't rely on Github unless you can verify that they didn't copy the code from someone else and you can run it.

Several high profile projects, with big teams, nice videos, lots of social media activity and hype, raised millions of dollars and still have not produced an app. This number will grow and become more evident in the coming years.

Gnosis raised $12.5 million and their website says:

Quote
“The Hunch Game is nearly ready and can be launched in the first half of 2017 as an example Gnosis app.”

No app yet.

Qtum raised $15.6 million. I don't see anything produced on Qtum's website.

After raising $50 million, Cosmos's website is still pitching its white paper. Come on. What have they produced with that $50 million?

Augur had Vitalik Buterin on their team. After Satoshi Nakamoto, Vitalik is the most desirable person in the universe to have on an ICO team. After raising multiple millions and after two and a half years, all they’ve released is a simple beta that is barely usable.

Don’t be suckered by animations and videos. Satoshi didn’t have any of this and his coin was the most successful. Besides, the animations aren’t that impressive anymore, as I’m beginning to see the same animation on multiple websites. Some of these teams must be using the same graphic designer.

There is no guarantee that any business will not fail. But, when the ICO team has a prototype/product, they have proven that they can develop. That significantly reduces your risk. With many ICOs, you have no idea if they can build anything. You cannot trust the information on the profile of many ICOs. Just because they can hire somebody to make a video, it does not mean they can write thousands of lines of complicated code. It's like you giving money to someone to fix your car, simply because he says he can fix cars but have never fixed one before.

Y Combinator is one of the biggest startup incubators in the world. They provide a small amount of funding (approx. $25k to 50k) to startups, which usually consists of 2 founders each. Then they build prototypes or products. Then the startups give pitches to angel investors or Venture Capitalists. If prototypes or products are unnecessary, then why do they waste so much time and money before pitching to angels and VCs?

Almost all incubators have startups that consist of usually only 2 founders, that are building prototypes and products. ICOs are stacking their team with a dozen people and they still cannot build anything. With 12 people, they should've built 6 prototypes/products by now. This shows that they are simply stacking their teams with useless people, in order to impress you or sucker you in.

2)  IS THE TEAM FROM A CORRUPT COUNTRY?

Check Transparency International's ranking.

If so, take a pass.

The number of ICOs from corrupt countries, especially those that were famous for sending out phishing scams for years, have exploded.

Yes, there are scams from countries that are not corrupt and successful projects from corrupt countries. What is important is the probability and if you are willing to take the extra risk.

In non-corrupt countries, people grow up with lots of regulations and enforcement. Though there are exceptions, the people feel that the way to get ahead is based largely on merit. In corrupt countries, there is less regulation, less enforcement and more people trying to find ways to get ahead by working around the system. In fact, they see that the most successful people in their country, usually in their government, are those who get ahead by lying, cheating or working around the system, instead of based on merit. If you do not think this is a risk, then we will agree to disagree.

Law enforcement is a big deterrent. Hurricanes prove this. After hurricanes Katrina and Irma, there were widespread lootings. Why? Because police are not on the streets and criminals feel immune from punishment.

Law enforcement through extradition is a deterrent. If an Australian defrauds investors in Germany, Germany can extradite the Australian and punish him. This makes the Australian think twice before he defrauds Germans. However, there are many countries without extradition agreements. This provides immunity to ICO teams. Therefore, they can lie, defraud and cheat investors from other countries, and there will be little to no recourse from the other countries. This can bring out the looting mentality.

There are many ICOs enticing investors, by claiming that their token or coin will go up in value or that token holders will get dividends, profits or ownership in other assets. Some tell buyers that they are “investing”. This means that they are selling securities and are breaking security laws.

I watched a video of a conference. ConsenSys was warning about the repercussions of selling securities. Waves’ CEO, who is from a country without extradition agreements with Europe or U.S., debated this, downplayed the concern and shrugged it off. Why should he care? No European or American government is going to be able to punish him if he broke security laws. Even if Europe cannot punish him, if Europe bans his coin, will you suffer?

Without law enforcement, ICOs can lie and get away with it. One project claimed that they will make 400+% return per year for the investor. In countries that enforce securities laws, if you make this claim and do not deliver, investors can sue you. In countries with advertising laws, the police can punish you for false advertising. In countries that are immune from these laws, ICOs can make any claim they want. One of the most egregious claims is when an ICO that tells you that you will be a part owner of a physical company. Good luck in getting a judge in their country to force the company to give you equity because you own some ERC-20 tokens. Good luck to you and your multiple flights to that country.

Few corrupt countries have extradition agreements. For those that do, can you rely on their corrupt governments to fulfill their obligations?

3)  “NEVER INVEST IN A BUSINESS THAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND”

This is a quote from Warren Buffett. It is very applicable because many ICO teams try to impress the audience with technical jargon. Many investors are not tech savvy and are baffled or confused, but they invest because they think that the project team must have come up with a technological break-through.

Last word:

You need to be able to verify that the business problem exists, that the market size is truly as big as the ICO claims and that the solution is possible. Quite often, they exaggerate on most of these. You need to verify that a blockchain or a cryptocurrency actually is needed for the solution. Quite often, they’re not.

Do not rely solely on ICO listing or rating sites. They likely do not know about all of the ICOs. Not all ICOs are willing to pay to be listed. They have methodologies that you may not agree with. Some claim to be experts, but you are likely more of an expert in your own field, whether that is medical, law, engineering or finance, than they are. They will likely have biases, especially for ICOs originating from their country or region. Putin wants to increase the crypto industry in Russia. Is this why there has been an explosion of ICOs from Russia? Even Putin’s Advisor ran an ICO. If Russia took out Facebook ads to disrupt U.S. and European politics, who is to say that they will not pay off ICO listing and ratings sites to favor Russian ICOs?

WOW!! Nice thread. 3. "Never invest in a business that you do not understand." I really like this one, because investing in crypto is not like the real world business that you can easily understand, we must know how it works.
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October 22, 2017, 09:03:20 AM
 #219

Thank you for sharing this story, it was very useful for me.
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October 22, 2017, 09:11:01 AM
 #220

From Russian ICO I look closely at SONM and WAVES. Sonm is already in my portfolio. Sonm released an updated roadmap yesterday, good project.
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