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Author Topic: 3 kinds of ICOs — Protect yourself  (Read 13566 times)
jlp (OP)
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October 28, 2017, 12:05:50 AM
 #281

much appreciated you for clearing it up.I truly dont see how individuals pick their speculations once in a while furthermore, its tragic when you see a shitty ico makes millions when genuine coins dont get enough consideration

Couldn't agree with you more.

Tezos is a great example. There was nothing earth shattering about what they wanted to do: better governance and formal verification. They could've built it for less than $10 million, but investors threw $200 million at them.

https://www.coindesk.com/tezos-founders-ico-controversy-will-blow/

Quote
director of development at Digital Currency Group, and herself a Tezos backer, asked why the project ended up raising more than 20 times the $10 million the couple had initially envisioned seeking in September 2016.

What's ironic is that Tezos' team cannot govern themselves:

Quote
Early in the session, the Breitmans said that one of the reasons they started the project was to solve the governance challenges faced by bitcoin.

Later, during the discussion of their own governance problems, Kathleen smiled and told the audience:

"We appreciate the irony of the situation."

Tezos was one of the most over-hyped and over-rated projects I've ever seen in my life. Investors got snookered and overpaid. If they gave that $200 million to 20 projects instead of one, we would have many more good products to use.
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October 28, 2017, 01:59:23 AM
 #282

much appreciated you for clearing it up.I truly dont see how individuals pick their speculations once in a while furthermore, its tragic when you see a shitty ico makes millions when genuine coins dont get enough consideration
There were a lot of shit ICO projects, even scam ICO also happened in the ICO market. After all, the investors still keep their faith in this market. Why? Because they can make money easily through this market instead of trading, but they don't know they are becoming the speculators by short term investment through the ICO projects.
With people making more money from coins that get pumped, I don't worry so much of the scams that are lurking in this forum waiting to get launched on somebody.
There's a few ICO's that are real.

 
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October 28, 2017, 02:05:14 AM
 #283

much appreciated you for clearing it up.I truly dont see how individuals pick their speculations once in a while furthermore, its tragic when you see a shitty ico makes millions when genuine coins dont get enough consideration
There were a lot of shit ICO projects, even scam ICO also happened in the ICO market. After all, the investors still keep their faith in this market. Why? Because they can make money easily through this market instead of trading, but they don't know they are becoming the speculators by short term investment through the ICO projects.
With people making more money from coins that get pumped, I don't worry so much of the scams that are lurking in this forum waiting to get launched on somebody.
There's a few ICO's that are real.
you are right, I also do not care about it, the important thing is that we have tried. well, of course i have some real ico and really do it out there, and one of them is gladius. well, all have risks, and without taking that risk, we can not make a profit.
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October 28, 2017, 09:08:37 AM
 #284

Wow amazing thread! Seriously thank you fro your work!
But I would even subdivide the last categorise. Because I guess for most of the investors a good return is the most important part of the investment.
A ICO can be legitimate but still won't make you rich bcs they fail.
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October 28, 2017, 01:48:27 PM
 #285

Awesome advice! Definitely can empathize with all you wrote. Moreover, would add that transparency is vital; Team (LinkedIn, public Profile), Product (at least a smoke screen test), Whitepaper (well written, detailed, timeline, compensation, distribution, concept, people, etc), and online presence (Social media, blogs, etc). All helps with credibility (references never hurt either).  Grin

Feel free to give us some advice to make us as transparent at possible: http://www.telco.in

Cheers!
Chris

telcoin's website is a textual, functionless website, but it is using 13-16% of my CPU. My fan is spinning on high speed, so I closed the browser tab.

With 8 people on the team, plus 3 advisors, this should not be happening. I can understand if you're selling furniture or shoes. But if you're going to be in the technology space, you need to show that you can do technology.

Sorry, but I wasn't able to read more of your site.

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October 28, 2017, 04:02:26 PM
 #286

Very informative thread and useful information for deciding in which ico to invest. I want to know what's OP opinion about PayPal based business model adaptation on blockchain like Monetha or Utrust? At first it looks like a great idea and proper model for a blockchain. What's your opinion?  Roll Eyes

UTRUST’s business is understandable, which is good. I think they’re in a country where we can extradite them or sue them if they screw us, which is good.

Intuitively, one would think that there is big market need for Utrust. The question is whether they can execute.

Bitpay has been doing Bitcoin payment processing for merchants for 4 or more years. One needs to find out why they haven’t expanded to process addition cryptocurrencies. Why haven’t they? Is it unprofitable to do so? Is there insufficient demand from merchants or shoppers? If they wanted to, would they be able to quickly do so?

Bitpay has not exploded in growth. This means that there aren't enough people using Bitcoin to shop. If this is the case, how do you know it's worthwhile to add more cryptos and that processing more cryptos will grow this space?

I like that they have a comparison chart with their competitors. However, how do we know that UTRUST’s will be able to survive by providing the lowest fees?

If UTRUST supports multiple cryptocurrencies, which they should because this is their main differentiator from Bitpay, then why would shoppers use UTRUST’s token?

The CEO does not have a LinkedIn profile. How do we know that he has a high school diploma or any work experience?

With 16 people on the team (and 13 advisors), they should’ve built 8 prototypes by now. Most of these people are doing nothing. This reduces the confidence that they can out-execute Bitpay.

It would be great if a company like Utrust succeeds. Maybe UTRUST can execute. I don’t know, as there isn’t enough information.

Thanks for a great insights. They are very helpfull. You can say nowadays all ICO's are covered with clouds and it's hard to see real potential and legitimacy of ico in that mist  Undecided

ALQO - A Decentralized, All-in-One Financial And Cloud Services Ecosystem.

https://alqo.app/
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October 28, 2017, 05:22:09 PM
 #287

I just found out about Overstock:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2324406.0

This project makes a lot of sense. They were the first major merchant to accept Bitcoin back in 2014, which the crypto community was very happy about. I still remember the announcement and we all hoped for more merchants to do the same. Now, they accept 40 altcoins as payment. So they have a lot of experience with cryptocurrencies. They're one of the most crypto friendly companies in existence.

With this ICO, they're not going to do crazy things like put large files, 3D or VR data on the blockchain. They're going to put stock related data on the blockchain. If they've already bought a Wall Street firm that is approved by SEC to trade stocks, then one would assume that their tokens will be legal owners of the shares of the companies that they entitle you to. There are several ICOs that claim that their tokens will entitle you to ownership to real estate, USD, gold or other coins without giving detailed, convincing explanation of how the tokens will have legal ownership.

They're going after a huge market and opportunity, much bigger than Ripple or most other markets that I can think of. This is the best ICO in a long time.

However, we'll need to see if a retailer can transition into a stock exchange operator. The other drawback is the size of the ICO, which is expected to be $500 million. That's a very high price to pay and you can end up overpaying. It's possible that investors throw even more than $500 million at Overstock and increase the risk of losing money in the short term. Stockbet also makes a lot of sense. They won't be as big as Overstock, but their tokens will be more reasonably priced.



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October 28, 2017, 05:34:13 PM
 #288

Interesting information. Especially the corruption ranking  Shocked
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October 28, 2017, 05:38:34 PM
 #289

There are 3 kinds of ICOs:

1)  SCAMS

There have always been a lot of scammers, hackers and thieves in the crypto space since day one. Think of Mount Gox. According to Business Insider:

Quote
“…one out of every 16-17 Bitcoins belongs to someone who stole it”

If you don’t think that these thieves are trying to steal money through ICOs or from ICOs, you are kidding yourself. You just need to see the Bitcointalk forum dedicated to scams, or to participate in a Slack channel and you will see the never-ending phishing e-mails trying to lure you to their sites, in order to empty your wallet.

In addition to thieves and scammers, there are those who lie or exaggerate. Many users on Bitcointalk are pump and dumpers.

2)  CRAP

Everyone is desperate to host an ICO to make money. Therefore, they are throwing anything and everything onto the blockchain, including the kitchen sink. They may not be intentionally trying to scam, but they think that they have a good enough idea for an ICO. But these will fail because the blockchain will not solve anything for them. Examples include ICOs that want to put 3D data (which would equate to hundreds of Terabytes of data) or 153 exabytes of medical data on a blockchain. This shows that they are clueless about the blockchain and have never run Bitcoin’s full node. Bitcoin’s blockchain is 120 GB and Ethereum’s blockhain is 200 GB and they are both having scaling problems.

Even though crypto veterans and fans would like it to be, the blockchain is NOT the panacea to every problem in the world.

ICOs are also throwing any kind of business problem that they can make up, into the ICO. If they cannot make up the business problem, they will exaggerate about it. They will fail because the business problem doesn’t really exist, isn’t significant enough, cannot be solved by a blockchain or they do not really have the solution, though they try to make it sound like they do with lots of technical jargon.

Swarm Fund cites this business problem:

Quote
“You need large amounts of money to buy real estate and your money is tied down for an indefinite amount of time.”

This is a lie and not a business problem. You can buy one share of a REIT, and there are thousands of REITs to choose from, and you can sell it one minute later. If they start off their pitch with a lie, what else are they lying about?

Energi cites this business problem:

Quote
“A small number of large energy companies supply millions of customers who are price takers.”

Therefore, the solution is to create more energy suppliers, especially nuclear power plants, which is the cheapest source of electricity. But the project does not propose this. They propose to enable consumers to sell their solar self-generated electricity directly to other consumers.

To do this, consumers should have BOTH solar panels and batteries. This is a TINY market. Though solar panels are growing, it is still a tiny percent of the market and solar generated electricity is still much more expensive than nuclear generated.

Consumers with solar panels do not have that much surplus electricity to sell anyways. They use most of what they generate. Tesla and Enphase hyped up their batteries for solar panel owners to store their surplus electricity. These batteries are NOT selling. Enphase spent over $100 million to develop their battery and partly because of the lack of battery sales, their stock has plummeted approximately 85%.

Of course, the project’s pitch looks impressive at first glance.

3)  LEGITIMATE

There are only a few applications that make a lot of sense for the blockchain: transfer of value (currency), store of value, remittances (disrupt Western Union and bank wire transfers), smart contracts, gaming and gambling. These applications will disrupt their respective industries, because the blockchain will provide a lot of cost-savings or time-savings to the users. There might be other applications that make sense that I missed, but applications proposed by many ICOs do not make sense. Jesus Coin is an extreme example, but there are applications that fall across the spectrum from Jesus Coin to Bitcoin.



YOU CAN REDUCE THE RISK AND THE NUMBER OF ICOS TO REVIEW, BY USING 3 FILTERS

1)  The project’s idea should make sense, but do not base your investment decision purely on the idea. Watch:

“Ideas are like assholes - everyone has one, no one cares”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhJgrEackis

Entrepreneurs typically try to hide their ideas because they think they are the only ones that came up with the ideas. Venture Capitalists tell them to scream their ideas to the public and they’ll see that nobody will steal them. Ideas are a dime a dozen. There are probably 10 other people with the same idea that you have or that the ICO has. The most important factor to success is the ability to execute. This is why Venture Capitalists refuse to sign non-disclosure agreements and rarely invest in startups which haven’t built a prototype or product.

HAS THE ICO TEAM BUILT ANYTHING THAT WE CAN USE TODAY?

If not, take a pass. This is the best evidence that the team can execute. It takes way more skill, time, work and money to build an app than to create a one-page website and video. It shows:

  • The team has proven that they can develop.
  • It is less likely that the team will invest so much and not follow through.

Everything else is useless. Don’t be fooled by big teams, fancy pretentious titles, references, roadmap, video, fancy animations, escrow, blogs, Slack, Telegram, Twitter, Facebook, Reddit and white paper.

One project stacked their team with a dozen people and then lied about them. One member had the title of “Blockchain Expert”, but he worked in Inside Sales until 1.5 months prior. One member had the title “Blockchain Developer”, but he never developed a blockchain before.

Here is an example of a project team using fake photos and fake names: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1949528.msg19485217#msg19485217

Don't rely on Github unless you can verify that they didn't copy the code from someone else and you can run it.

Several high profile projects, with big teams, nice videos, lots of social media activity and hype, raised millions of dollars and still have not produced an app. This number will grow and become more evident in the coming years.

Gnosis raised $12.5 million and their website says:

Quote
“The Hunch Game is nearly ready and can be launched in the first half of 2017 as an example Gnosis app.”

No app yet.

Qtum raised $15.6 million. I don't see anything produced on Qtum's website.

After raising $50 million, Cosmos's website is still pitching its white paper. Come on. What have they produced with that $50 million?

Augur had Vitalik Buterin on their team. After Satoshi Nakamoto, Vitalik is the most desirable person in the universe to have on an ICO team. After raising multiple millions and after two and a half years, all they’ve released is a simple beta that is barely usable.

Don’t be suckered by animations and videos. Satoshi didn’t have any of this and his coin was the most successful. Besides, the animations aren’t that impressive anymore, as I’m beginning to see the same animation on multiple websites. Some of these teams must be using the same graphic designer.

There is no guarantee that any business will not fail. But, when the ICO team has a prototype/product, they have proven that they can develop. That significantly reduces your risk. With many ICOs, you have no idea if they can build anything. You cannot trust the information on the profile of many ICOs. Just because they can hire somebody to make a video, it does not mean they can write thousands of lines of complicated code. It's like you giving money to someone to fix your car, simply because his video says he can fix cars, but he has never fixed one before.

Y Combinator is one of the biggest startup incubators in the world. They provide a small amount of funding (approx. $25k to 50k) to startups, which usually consists of 2 founders each. Then they build prototypes or products. Then the startups give pitches to angel investors or Venture Capitalists. If prototypes or products are unnecessary, then why do they waste so much time and money before pitching to angels and VCs?

Almost all incubators have startups that consist of usually only 2 founders, that are building prototypes and products. ICOs are stacking their team with a dozen people and they still cannot build anything. With 12 people, they should've built 6 prototypes/products by now. This shows that they are simply stacking their teams with useless people, in order to impress you or sucker you in.

2)  IS THE TEAM FROM A CORRUPT COUNTRY?

Check Transparency International's ranking.

If so, take a pass.

The number of ICOs from corrupt countries, especially those that were famous for sending out phishing scams for years, have exploded.

Yes, there are scams from countries that are not corrupt and successful projects from corrupt countries. What is important is the probability and if you are willing to take the extra risk.

In non-corrupt countries, people grow up with lots of regulations and enforcement. Though there are exceptions, the people feel that the way to get ahead is based largely on merit. In corrupt countries, there is less regulation, less enforcement and more people trying to find ways to get ahead by working around the system. In fact, they see that the most successful people in their country, usually in their government, are those who get ahead by lying, cheating or working around the system, instead of based on merit. If you do not think this is a risk, then we will agree to disagree.

Law enforcement is a big deterrent. Hurricanes prove this. After hurricanes Katrina and Irma, there were widespread lootings. Why? Because police are not on the streets and criminals feel immune from punishment.

Law enforcement through extradition is a deterrent. If an Australian defrauds investors in Germany, Germany can extradite the Australian and punish him. This makes the Australian think twice before he defrauds Germans. However, there are many countries without extradition agreements. This provides immunity to ICO teams. Therefore, they can lie, defraud and cheat investors from other countries, and there will be little to no recourse from the other countries. This can bring out the looting mentality.

There are many ICOs enticing investors, by claiming that their token or coin will go up in value or that token holders will get dividends, profits or ownership in other assets. Some tell buyers that they are “investing”. This means that they are selling securities and are breaking security laws.

I watched a video of a conference. ConsenSys was warning about the repercussions of selling securities. Waves’ CEO, who is from a country without extradition agreements with Europe or U.S., debated this, downplayed the concern and shrugged it off. Why should he care? No European or American government is going to be able to punish him if he broke security laws. Even if Europe cannot punish him, if Europe bans his coin, will you suffer?

Without law enforcement, ICOs can lie and get away with it. One project claimed that they will make 400+% return per year for the investor. In countries that enforce securities laws, if you make this claim and do not deliver, investors can sue you. In countries with advertising laws, the police can punish you for false advertising. In countries that are immune from these laws, ICOs can make any claim they want. One of the most egregious claims is when an ICO that tells you that you will be a part owner of a physical company. Good luck in getting a judge in their country to force the company to give you equity because you own some ERC-20 tokens. Good luck to you and your multiple flights to that country.

Few corrupt countries have extradition agreements. For those that do, can you rely on their corrupt governments to fulfill their obligations?

3)  “NEVER INVEST IN A BUSINESS THAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND”

This is a quote from Warren Buffett. It is very applicable because many ICO teams try to impress the audience with technical jargon. Many investors are not tech savvy and are baffled or confused, but they invest because they think that the project team must have come up with a technological break-through.

Last word:

You need to be able to verify that the business problem exists, that the market size is truly as big as the ICO claims and that the solution is possible. Quite often, they exaggerate on most of these. You need to verify that a blockchain or a cryptocurrency actually is needed for the solution. Quite often, they’re not.

Do not rely solely on ICO listing or rating sites. They likely do not know about all of the ICOs. Not all ICOs are willing to pay to be listed. They have methodologies that you may not agree with. Some claim to be experts, but you are likely more of an expert in your own field, whether that is medical, law, engineering or finance, than they are. They will likely have biases, especially for ICOs originating from their country or region. Putin wants to increase the crypto industry in Russia. Is this why there has been an explosion of ICOs from Russia? Even Putin’s Advisor ran an ICO. If Russia took out Facebook ads to disrupt U.S. and European politics, who is to say that they will not pay off ICO listing and ratings sites to favor Russian ICOs?
Thanks for the write up. It seems that people here are mainly interested in promoting their scamcoin.

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October 28, 2017, 06:42:29 PM
 #290

Nice writeup...but it is going to be hard for individuals not to be scammed cos of these ico's Airdrops
The airdrops will fade away when people realize that they are only receiving a small payout or they will be holding a coin that is just taking up space in their wallet.

 
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October 28, 2017, 08:09:17 PM
 #291

I just found out about Overstock:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2324406.0

This project makes a lot of sense. They were the first major merchant to accept Bitcoin back in 2014, which the crypto community was very happy about. I still remember the announcement and we all hoped for more merchants to do the same. Now, they accept 40 altcoins as payment. So they have a lot of experience with cryptocurrencies. They're one of the most crypto friendly companies in existence.

With this ICO, they're not going to do crazy things like put large files, 3D or VR data on the blockchain. They're going to put stock related data on the blockchain. If they've already bought a Wall Street firm that is approved by SEC to trade stocks, then one would assume that their tokens will be legal owners of the shares of the companies that they entitle you to. There are several ICOs that claim that their tokens will entitle you to ownership to real estate, USD, gold or other coins without giving detailed, convincing explanation of how the tokens will have legal ownership.

They're going after a huge market and opportunity, much bigger than Ripple or most other markets that I can think of. This is the best ICO in a long time.

However, we'll need to see if a retailer can transition into a stock exchange operator. The other drawback is the size of the ICO, which is expected to be $500 million. That's a very high price to pay and you can end up overpaying. It's possible that investors throw even more than $500 million at Overstock and increase the risk of losing money in the short term. Stockbet also makes a lot of sense. They won't be as big as Overstock, but their tokens will be more reasonably priced.

I agree about both Overstock and Stockbet!

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October 28, 2017, 08:19:36 PM
 #292

Thank you! it's really nice and informative thread.

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October 29, 2017, 02:09:08 AM
 #293

Another type of ICO I was wondering about with regards to your view on it would be digital advertising ICOs like Papyrus for example. Considering social media and digital advertising are growing exponentially in this age, do you think Altcoins would have any potential to penetrate this space?

Papyrus is probably the 3rd or 4th project I’ve seen related to a new token being able to control advertising.

They cite a lot of business problems, which seem legitimate. But I don’t see how they can solve them.

Papyrus states the following as a Papyrus Advantage (solution to problem):

Quote
Controlled advertising
Users are able to create precise policies to control what ads they see and what data they share with advertisers.

How?

The majority of advertising that you see is from Google, Youtube (which is Google), Facebook and Twitter. You can’t control the advertising that they show you. When you search on Google, it shows ads on top of the search results. How do you think Papyrus is going to let you control that? Are they going to hack into Google’s servers? When you watch Youtube, it shows commercials at the beginning of the video. How is Papyrus going to let you control Youtube? When Facebook shows ads in the right column, how are you going to stop them? Is Papyrus going to use a blockchain to stop these ads? How?

The biggest source of revenue for Google is AdWords and Google is the biggest advertising middleman on the internet. Therefore, Google AdWords is the biggest form of advertising on the internet, and it runs on Google's sites. How is Papyrus going to interfere with this?

For all of the other sites on the internet that have ads, most of them use Google AdSense. They put Google’s code into their website, select some parameters and let Google serve the ads into their websites. Then Google charges the advertiser every time a visitor clicks on that ad, and pays a percentage of that to the site owner. How is Papyrus going to interfere with this?

Papyrus has all of these fancy diagrams, but no mention of Google Adwords or AdSense.

The people who controls the advertising are the people who control the traffic. How will Papyrus convince these people to let them take over control?

I didn’t read all of their information, so maybe I missed it. Maybe someone can explain to me how a blockchain is going to enable Papyrus take control.
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October 31, 2017, 01:33:24 AM
 #294

Another type of ICO I was wondering about with regards to your view on it would be digital advertising ICOs like Papyrus for example. Considering social media and digital advertising are growing exponentially in this age, do you think Altcoins would have any potential to penetrate this space?

Papyrus is probably the 3rd or 4th project I’ve seen related to a new token being able to control advertising.

They cite a lot of business problems, which seem legitimate. But I don’t see how they can solve them.

Papyrus states the following as a Papyrus Advantage (solution to problem):

Quote
Controlled advertising
Users are able to create precise policies to control what ads they see and what data they share with advertisers.

How?

The majority of advertising that you see is from Google, Youtube (which is Google), Facebook and Twitter. You can’t control the advertising that they show you. When you search on Google, it shows ads on top of the search results. How do you think Papyrus is going to let you control that? Are they going to hack into Google’s servers? When you watch Youtube, it shows commercials at the beginning of the video. How is Papyrus going to let you control Youtube? When Facebook shows ads in the right column, how are you going to stop them? Is Papyrus going to use a blockchain to stop these ads? How?

The biggest source of revenue for Google is AdWords and Google is the biggest advertising middleman on the internet. Therefore, Google AdWords is the biggest form of advertising on the internet, and it runs on Google's sites. How is Papyrus going to interfere with this?

For all of the other sites on the internet that have ads, most of them use Google AdSense. They put Google’s code into their website, select some parameters and let Google serve the ads into their websites. Then Google charges the advertiser every time a visitor clicks on that ad, and pays a percentage of that to the site owner. How is Papyrus going to interfere with this?

Papyrus has all of these fancy diagrams, but no mention of Google Adwords or AdSense.

The people who controls the advertising are the people who control the traffic. How will Papyrus convince these people to let them take over control?

I didn’t read all of their information, so maybe I missed it. Maybe someone can explain to me how a blockchain is going to enable Papyrus take control.

I really doubt the stuff will work, there are as you said to many of them already out there and I don#t see how is going to benefit anyone. Beside the ICO guys.!
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October 31, 2017, 02:23:33 AM
 #295

Human are so greedy and selfish in nature, so never invest money you cannot afford to lose.
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October 31, 2017, 02:54:13 AM
 #296

This is an eye-opener to all of us here who might have become fond of investing some money in ICO. One thing for sure is that in majority of the ICOs, there is still no product yet and no prototype already established...it is more of an idea and how far the team can pursue with the idea will remained unanswered until such a time that the team can claimed it has. This scenario is really making the whole project a big risk so what many are doing is just demand for the tokens/coins to be available in many exchanges as fast as possible so that with a good value they can just dump their holdings and then proceed to another ICO projects...no wonder that this industry really needs to be regulated (not banned though). Sometimes when i read the idea of an ICO my mouth cringes in pain...
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October 31, 2017, 06:48:38 AM
 #297

This thread blew my mind. This is the information I am trying to find anywhere. There are a lot of threads that tackles this issue but I know there is something missing and this thread filled all of it. It really hits me on the part where ICOs use jargon so they will sound more convincing and they really know what they are doing even if they really don't.
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October 31, 2017, 09:30:50 AM
 #298

This is a good read. I then realized that i really need hardwork and study well the upcoming ICOs before joining.

Thanks for this post
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October 31, 2017, 09:55:25 AM
 #299

To be honest, after reading it again and again. Actually for making money right after the ICO there are MAYBE 1 or 2 ICO a month which will really give you a return after investing in them. I mean with the price going UP and not DOWN after the ICO!

Everything is traded nowadays Etherdelta and its crap no vol everything goes down!
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October 31, 2017, 10:07:40 AM
 #300

So, after all, what's your overall view on ARToken? They seem to be getting involved in a lot of events and collaborations for exposure (at least that's what it seems from their blog) and they look like they have some potential in the medium to distant future? What do you say?
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