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Author Topic: Holy Grail BOUNTY  (Read 36294 times)
phelix
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July 12, 2013, 06:52:48 AM
 #121

in answer to:
http://opentransactions.org/forum/index.php?topic=10.msg40#msg40  Namecoin credential

Are you sure the id/ namespace is the right one? You might want to consider creating your own namespace.

holygrail/ is still free  Cheesy


.... sure it could be "p/" or "hash/" or any other ... doesn't really matter. It is a discussion document so comments welcomed.
what about ot/

I assume "holy grail" is just a working name. There are some religious people around even here that might not like it.
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July 12, 2013, 07:18:56 AM
 #122

I assume "holy grail" is just a working name. There are some religious people around even here that might not like it.

The name of the project on CIYAM Open and github is Moneychanger.

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SimonBelmond
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July 12, 2013, 10:07:29 PM
 #123

The Grail was just filled by yet another BTC. Adding a dezentralized version of NashX would be great for snailmail "escrow". Eventually...
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July 24, 2013, 04:42:22 AM
 #124

Hope all is well with this project.  Where do we stand today?

There are various sub-tasks (and bounties) in this project:

-- Namecoin integration 7.5 BTC
-- Systray GUI with OT integration 10 BTC
-- Markets UI 7 BTC
-- HTTP Interface 8 BTC
-- Integration with legacy banking 12 BTC
-- Bitcoin integration (multi-sig) 10 BTC
-- Bitmessage integration 11 BTC
-- Colored coins integration 10 BTC
-- Internationalization. 5 BTC

If you wish, you can contribute to the individual sub-tasks, whichever ones are your biggest priority.

----------------------------------------------------

Status:


-- Namecoin integration

===> This integration is what enables OT credentials to entirely ditch the legacy Certificate Authorities, and still be revokable.

===> As of last night, our contributor randy-waterhouse has come up with the scheme we are going to use, which will allow for expiration, revocation, multiple credentials, etc.

===> Here is the scheme, if anyone has feedback: http://opentransactions.org/forum/index.php?topic=10.msg40#msg40

===> We are tracking this sub-task here: http://ciyam.org/open/?cmd=view&data=20130607042737932000&ident=M100V131&chksum=6dd7acda


-- Systray GUI with OT integration
-- Markets UI
-- HTTP Interface


===> Xenland is coding this as we speak; he's been working on it for several weeks now.

===> He has a working QT systray app, and he has OT building inside it.

===> He is not done adding the OT functionality, but some of the menu items are working already.

===> Track his progress here: https://github.com/Xenland/Moneychanger


-- Integration with legacy banking

===> This sub-task is posted here: http://ciyam.org/open/?cmd=view&data=20130608221956480000&ident=M100V131&chksum=e257f8e6

===> We will probably not start this until the Bitmessage integration is well-underway.

===> We are hoping to take advantage of the work accomplished in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=173220.0;all


-- Bitcoin integration (multi-sig)

===> Work on this will probably not commence until the basic UI is finished.

===> However, there's no reason why this couldn't be coded now, if someone wants to bid on it: http://ciyam.org/open/?cmd=view&data=20130607042534492000&ident=M100V131&chksum=45d04220


-- Bitmessage integration

===> Work on this will probably not commence until the basic UI is finished.

===> Bitmessage project have already added the necessary changes on their side.

===> If someone wants to bid on this now, work can start immediately:  http://ciyam.org/open/?cmd=view&data=20130607042614187000&ident=M100V131&chksum=f0373e43


-- Colored coins integration

===> I don't think the colored coins guys are ready for this. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) We're waiting to hear from them on the best API for us to use.

===> Whenever they are ready, there's a bounty waiting to be collected: http://ciyam.org/open/?cmd=view&data=20130607042635688000&ident=M100V131&chksum=649becfd


-- Internationalization.

===> becoin has contributed 5 BTC towards internationalization, so we added this subtask: http://ciyam.org/open/?cmd=view&data=20130627012452184000&ident=M100V131&chksum=7a036860

===> No one has bid on this so far.

Any update on this? @fellowtraveler when do you think there will be a need for the first testers? I am only so impatient because it is so exiting.

Once we reach the point where internationalization is implemented, I would be glad to work on the German translation.
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July 24, 2013, 05:57:19 AM
 #125

What's the status of Bitcoin integration/colored coin integration?

ciyam open says it is "Coding - Pending" for both, but I have no idea what it means.

If nobody started coding yet it probably makes sense to give these tasks to me / BitContracts.org team.

Since we already started implementing colored coin library in C++, it should work nicely with this project.

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July 24, 2013, 06:06:55 AM
 #126

ciyam open says it is "Coding - Pending" for both, but I have no idea what it means.

The Pending status means that the tasks have been assigned and are presumably under development.

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marcus_of_augustus
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July 24, 2013, 01:27:51 PM
 #127

ciyam open says it is "Coding - Pending" for both, but I have no idea what it means.

The Pending status means that the tasks have been assigned and are presumably under development.


When does "presumably under development" get changed to "likely bounty squatting" ?

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July 24, 2013, 01:41:54 PM
 #128

When does "presumably under development" get changed to "likely bounty squatting" ?

Good point - it is up to the Project Manager (so nothing that I am controlling) - if no-one completes the task within a reasonable time-frame then the Project Manager is free to "Reject" the bidder and get another one.

To be perfectly clear - "bounty squatting" is entirely under the control of the Project Manager.

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Explodicle
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July 24, 2013, 01:52:32 PM
 #129

Any update on this? @fellowtraveler when do you think there will be a need for the first testers? I am only so impatient because it is so exiting.
I feel the same way. Once this gets dumbed down to my level there's all sorts of stuff I can't wait to try... Last time I got OT+Moneychanger to actually work was like a year ago, and I couldn't figure out much more than Baskets. Grin I'll probably be most useful updating the wiki for other mere mortals.

When does "presumably under development" get changed to "likely bounty squatting" ?
Once the GUI is easy for everyone to use, do you folks think a prediction market might be a better model for these bounties? That would eliminate squatting, and also give participants a good projection for completion dates.
killerstorm
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July 24, 2013, 04:26:57 PM
 #130

When does "presumably under development" get changed to "likely bounty squatting" ?
Once the GUI is easy for everyone to use, do you folks think a prediction market might be a better model for these bounties? That would eliminate squatting, and also give participants a good projection for completion dates.

In my experience it is hard to find highly skilled developers who have some spare time. (For Bitcoin projects... My theory is that everybody is hiring so this completely depleted the pool of available devs.)

Usually developers want a concrete payout model like "do this, get 10 BTC", as it matches per-hour wage they are used to. I.e. they know what a hour of their time is worth, they estimate how long it takes to complete a task, and can thus know whether it is a good deal or not.

If you introduce a risk of non-payment (e.g. if two devs work do same job only one gets paid), you need to compensate for it by higher payoff.

Also you need to take into account developer psychology. It is a very complex topic, but the general idea is that developers are more likely to take small tasks which they are prepared for.

Also they care about awesomeness, good cause, prestige etc.

Say, if something takes 1 hour of time and involves only tech I know, I will take risk, and even accept discounted payment if it is cool and everything.

So I think prediction market might work if you break whole thing into small tasks.

But this is very problematic:

  • very few developers know all required tech, and preparation takes a lot of time
  • designing the solution takes time
  • it is very hard to break the whole thing into smaller pieces, basically to do this you need to design the architecture in all details
  • when people care only about completion of a certain task they are more likely to commit bad code, or do not take into account the big picture

We've been trying to develop colored coins using bounty model for 6 months or so, and it wasn't effective. I'm now using a different approach for BitContracts.org: we have a team, of sorts. While individual team members get bounties, the difference is that they work continuously on many tasks, so preparation is less of an issue (you prepare only once), they are interested in long-term success and so on.

I haven't tried it, but what might work is hackathon-style events. It is easier for a programmer psychologically: if it is possible to find, say, 24h to work on this project, programmer can just commit to work on it, and have no worries about distractions and such.

Also hackathon might be perceived as a fun time, risk is bounded, so programmers will be more likely to do this.

Also it would help a lot if people who have more experience or have better vision will be available through the event to give advice. It happens very often that programmer is stuck on what appears to be trivial, and availability of an expert can drastically speed up the development and reduce complexity.

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JaSK
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July 30, 2013, 10:50:16 AM
 #131

hey,

I'm one of the people working on the holy grail tasks.
Sorry, but so far I've not done much yet Sad
I set up the dev environment and started playing around a bit but due to lots of real-life stuff and needing a holiday I haven't done much real work on it yet.
However I do have free time and skills, so don't worry, I just had some higher priority tasks to take care of first Tongue

Just wanted to give you a status update from my side, from what I saw Xenland is working hard on his tasks.
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July 30, 2013, 10:59:03 AM
 #132

The entire focus of CIYAM Open is "tasks" so hopefully this matches what both the Project Manager and Contributor are wanting to achieve.

Also being a C++ programmer since the 90's I am happy to offer help (and already have done so) to parties working on this project (for CIYAM Open there is nothing better than a project that *succeeds* in its goals).

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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marcus_of_augustus
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July 30, 2013, 11:17:58 AM
 #133

hey,

I'm one of the people working on the holy grail tasks.
Sorry, but so far I've not done much yet Sad
I set up the dev environment and started playing around a bit but due to lots of real-life stuff and needing a holiday I haven't done much real work on it yet.
However I do have free time and skills, so don't worry, I just had some higher priority tasks to take care of first Tongue

Just wanted to give you a status update from my side, from what I saw Xenland is working hard on his tasks.

So your status update is ... you haven't done much of anything? Thnx for keeping us in the loop.

Looks like Xenland has stalled out also.

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July 30, 2013, 11:22:30 AM
 #134

So your status update is ... you haven't done much of anything? Thnx for keeping us in the loop.

Looks like Xenland has stalled out also.

Sure - it may be frustrating to wait for tasks to be finished but are you willing to do something (other than complain)?

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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marcus_of_augustus
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July 30, 2013, 12:09:24 PM
 #135

So your status update is ... you haven't done much of anything? Thnx for keeping us in the loop.

Looks like Xenland has stalled out also.

Sure - it may be frustrating to wait for tasks to be finished but are you willing to do something (other than complain)?


Just observing, not complaining ... bit sensitive?

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July 30, 2013, 12:37:22 PM
 #136

Just observing, not complaining ... bit sensitive?

Not sensitive - but realistic - if people don't contribute funds then how do they think that things will get done?

Things are happening but only at the rate that the funds that have been made available can make them happen.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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marcus_of_augustus
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July 30, 2013, 12:54:45 PM
 #137

Just observing, not complaining ... bit sensitive?

Not sensitive - but realistic - if people don't contribute funds then how do they think that things will get done?

Things are happening but only at the rate that the funds that have been made available can make them happen.


So what ... you are saying now open source projects need funding or they will never happen? Sounds like you might be in the wrong game if open source has become about the money for you ... and besides there is over 6k available in total for this project, which you are probably well aware of, and it doesn't seem to have inspired anybody greatly anyway.

Interested to know what price would you have put on getting this done professionally (not some intern, learner , etc)?

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July 30, 2013, 01:01:25 PM
 #138

So what ... you are saying now open source projects need funding or they will never happen? Sounds like you might be in the wrong game if open source has become about the money for you ... and besides there is over 6k available in total for this project, which you are probably well aware of, and it doesn't seem to have inspired anybody greatly anyway.

Interested to know what price would you have put on getting this done professionally (not some intern, learner , etc)?

I do hope that you understand that I do not get any benefit from hosting Moneychanger or Xenland's project on CIYAM Open (they are fee free forever).

I am more interested in helping interesting ideas and projects than making money.


With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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July 30, 2013, 01:18:08 PM
 #139

Just observing, not complaining ... bit sensitive?

Not sensitive - but realistic - if people don't contribute funds then how do they think that things will get done?

Things are happening but only at the rate that the funds that have been made available can make them happen.


So what ... you are saying now open source projects need funding or they will never happen? Sounds like you might be in the wrong game if open source has become about the money for you ... and besides there is over 6k available in total for this project, which you are probably well aware of, and it doesn't seem to have inspired anybody greatly anyway.

Interested to know what price would you have put on getting this done professionally (not some intern, learner , etc)?

I would like to think that Jeff Garzik being hired (full time) by BitPay to develop Bitcoin has increased his productivity now that he can devote all his time to it.
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July 30, 2013, 01:25:41 PM
 #140

I work every day on CIYAM for *nothing* and have been doing so for years.

If others don't do this I don't blame them (you do need to pay bills in the real world) and the entire point of CIYAM Open is to create a place where developers can earn money for their contributions to open source projects that people want to support.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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