BitcoinOrama Report on the KnCminer/OrSoC Open-day Mon 10/06/13 (Stockholm)

[retro72]

I think I'll wait for the abridged version  

Now I know lots of you are going to get your panties in a bunch for me saying this but.....

Could you just post the straight unvarnished answers to the questions. I started reading your post, skipped the Ryanair nonsense then started on the novel that followed, I soon lost the will when I discovered it was another bitcoinorama circle jerk. High on vague assumptions, Low on facts.( Marcus is a perfectionist, living in a James bond lair........really?  )

I appreciate you taking the time out to do this but sending the most Pro/biased/lobbyist for KNCminer on the forum probably wasn't a great idea if we wanted an objective opinion.  Also Bitcoinorams motivations are becoming clearer. He's angling for a job in the bitcoin industry, hopefully with KNC (PR maybe?)so take what he says with a large grain of salt.

Can we please have some facts rather than speculation, assumptions and wishful thinking. Some of us are still considering making this investment and could do with information sans rose tint and varnish.

And before you say it. I should go and do it myself. Believe me I will. I'm looking at purchasing multiple machines and have a couple of friends interested also. I won't be dropping any money utill I've thoroughly checked this out. I was hoping some fundamental questions would have be answered but as of today the are still holes you can drive a bus through.

get on a plane and go yourself or HIRE someone you want to go

you are really hitting the top of the bitching scale

Like I said panties in a bunch lol

[Bitcoinorama]

Retro, it's cool I know you want to see the answers to your questions. They were asked so you will get them.

I acknowledge I was being optimistic and encouraging prior to visiting them, I don't believe I am now at all, they surpassed even my expectations.  I kissed no one's arse there, and I gave both barrels to Sam. Ask the other attendees we grilled them for 5 hours.

There is a resounding agreement from all that went on this. There hasn't been one negative word. Risks are definitely there, and people need to acknowledge them for what they are, but I can assure you KnC and ORSoC are taking this very seriously and have literally identified whatever point of failure they have control over and created multiple solutions that can be implemented if required.

They are not sourcing parts from any one point of contact. They have multiple live back-ups that will be ensuring a smooth manufacture. If anyone specific part is problematic or the supplier screws up, you will be given solid documentation as evidence, every step of the way.

I didn't however get a chance to wander through the adjoining rooms, the other guys did however on multiple occasions. To give you a better idea, the building you are familiar with the exterior of. ORSoC have an entire floor (the first). It's about 4-5 large rooms. That's the HQ as even though the tech hub is North of Stockholm, having a presence in the city centre is great for business. ORSoC have 3 sites in total, one in each major Swedish city.

I won't upload the transcript as others don't want their voices made public. No one likes to hear the sound of their own voice normally anyway. On top of which there is a load of ambient noise, which makes this harder than I initially imagined. Also, there was a lot discussed 'off the record'. That's not to keep people in the dark, but a more a testament to their openness and honesty as they were happy to answer and share whatever we asked, but I have to respect them as a company that wants to remain competitive. I pushed for their informed opinion on their competitors, they gave it. There were in no way impolite, or negative, they didn't belittle, on the contrary for some they had great appreciation and praise, but these are private thoughts. Sam was certain to state they were 'Sam Cole's' in that instance and not KnC's or ORSoC's, although everyone had their say. They are more than aware their is warranted distrust in the community and a need for clarity and transparency, they gave that, they have promised to continue giving that.

They want a real long-term business in cryptocurrencies, as to be fair do I.

This is the ground floor for an entire blooming industry potentially with as much scope as the Internet itself.

Think about that.

There are many reasons to be optimistic.

Scammers are two a penny, but they are f***ing dumb if they don't see the potential in being credible. I can't say who, but KnC have been approached but scammers asking if they can buy their chips when they are ready as they have so much interest they want to turn legit. Really.

Other things I cannot share or impart are their future plans. In my opinion, that's their property to share. I alluded to aspects, sure, but these guys deserve a fighting chance and dor the record, if they manufacture the ASIC for September they have some very exciting future ideas. Spec for next year. My beleaguering demands for a Litecoin FPGA have not gone unnoticed. Though that's only one aspect I'm prepared to share...

All I can tell you and hopefully you will glean from their own answers as I'm about to sit down now and work through this (despite having a million other things to do day to day), is they appear very competent and knowledgable. They are not promising anything they don't believe they can deliver, having met them, ignoring what I'm imparting upon you, none of the other attendees disagree with this...

[VeeMiner]

I don't believe that they will deliver 28 nm ASIC out of the blue, the design is exceptionally hard to make and it's very expensive. I'm sure their intentions are good and they don't want to scam anyone, I just don't think they will create a chip of this quality.

[Korbman]

I don't believe that they will deliver 28 nm ASIC out of the blue, the desing is exceptionally hard to make and it's very expensive.

..which is why they're converting their current FPGA chips to ASIC..which is cheaper and faster than designing a custom 28nm chip...

[retro72]

All I can tell you and hopefully you will glean from their own answers as I'm about to sit down now and work through this (despite having a million other things to do day to day), is they appear very competent and knowledgable. They are not promising anything they don't believe they can deliver, having met them, ignoring what I'm imparting upon you, none of the other attendees disagree with this...

Thanks again for taking the time to do this. I understand what you're saying about the transcript. I can edit out the chit chat and reduce the background noise but I know what you mean about people not wanting to hear their own voice. I can make them sound like Optimus Prime if that helps
The offers there if you need it.

I'm pretty much sold on the company not being a scam and I'm as sure as I can be, without meeting them myself (next on my to do list) that their hearts in the right place. But I do not know enough about the technicals and that troubles me. I hate having gaps in my knowledge when making decisions. That's why I am keen to see the answers to the questions posed.

I went out to dinner last night and had one too many so forgive my earlier rudeness but I am keen to learn as much as I can. Its a really busy time in my industry and I cannot take the time, especially on a week day to go there myself. I would if I could.

So thanks again for doing this, I'll restrain my impatience and await your upload.

[Bitcoinorama]

I don't believe that they will deliver 28 nm ASIC out of the blue, the desing is exceptionally hard to make and it's very expensive.

..which is why they're converting their current FPGA chips to ASIC..which is cheaper and faster than designing a custom 28nm chip...

Indeed Mars had a very significant purpose for those that didn't fully understand (including myself at the time) why they were intent on building a 6gh/s FPGA.

Now in the interim watch what Marcus and the rest of the team that I neglected to credit can achieve with Mars;

Michael Unnebäck, Yann Vernier and Henrik Nordström.

The HW is really a huge team-effort, Marcus emailed and said I'm irreoneously giving him all the credit

In any case hardware within Mars is about to be pushed to the limit, and done fast without delays. So you're about to see what is capable.

The ASIC final design is complete though, and from what I understand any improvements to the FPGA from here on in, apply to future chip revisions. Though perhaps some aspects of the hardware improvements will be relevant. That we'll need clarity on.

VeeMiner, of course your opinion welcome, and I'm in no position to promise anything, all I can relay is they on record have announced they want to be held accountable for;

A 28nm chip, 175/350 Gh/s miners come September. In a room full of witnesses...

[VeeMiner]

I don't believe that they will deliver 28 nm ASIC out of the blue, the desing is exceptionally hard to make and it's very expensive.

..which is why they're converting their current FPGA chips to ASIC..which is cheaper and faster than designing a custom 28nm chip...

and how exactly does that prove that they are capable of creating a chip of this quality?

[Bitcoinorama]

All I can tell you and hopefully you will glean from their own answers as I'm about to sit down now and work through this (despite having a million other things to do day to day), is they appear very competent and knowledgable. They are not promising anything they don't believe they can deliver, having met them, ignoring what I'm imparting upon you, none of the other attendees disagree with this...

Thanks again for taking the time to do this. I understand what you're saying about the transcript. I can edit out the chit chat and reduce the background noise but I know what you mean about people not wanting to hear their own voice. I can make them sound like Optimus Prime if that helps
The offers there if you need it.

I'm pretty much sold on the company not being a scam and I'm as sure as I can be, without meeting them myself (next on my to do list) that their hearts in the right place. But I do not know enough about the technicals and that troubles me. I hate having gaps in my knowledge when making decisions. That's why I am keen to see the answers to the questions posed.

I went out to dinner last night and had one too many so forgive my earlier rudeness but I am keen to learn as much as I can. Its a really busy time in my industry and I cannot take the time, especially on a week day to go there myself. I would if I could.

So thanks again for doing this, I'll restrain my impatience and await your upload.

Thank-you, you're welcome. I will do my best, that I can promise!

[VeeMiner]

I don't believe that they will deliver 28 nm ASIC out of the blue, the desing is exceptionally hard to make and it's very expensive.

..which is why they're converting their current FPGA chips to ASIC..which is cheaper and faster than designing a custom 28nm chip...

Indeed Mars had a very significant purpose for those that didn't fully understand (including myself at the time) why they were intent on building a 6gh/s FPGA.

Now in the interim watch what Marcus and the rest of the team that I neglected to credit can achieve with Mars;

Michael Unnebäck, Yann Vernier and Henrik Nordström.

The HW is really a huge team-effort, Marcus emailed and said I'm irreoneously giving him all the credit

In any case hardware within Mars is about to be pushed to the limit, and done fast without delays. So you're about to see what is capable.

The ASIC final design is complete though, and from what I understand any improvements to the FPGA from here on in, apply to future chip revisions. Though perhaps some aspects of the hardware improvements will be relevant. That we'll need clarity on.

VeeMiner, of course your opinion welcome, and I'm in no position to promise anything, all I can relay is they on record have announced they want to be held accountable for;

A 28nm chip, 175/350 Gh/s miners come September. In a room full of witnesses...

alright, once I see it actually hashing then I will buy the product...

[erschiessen]

I appreciate you taking the time out to do this but sending the most Pro/biased/lobbyist for KNCminer on the forum probably wasn't a great idea if we wanted an objective opinion. 

Wow, I din't realize that we, as bitcointalk members, SENT people to KNC.
I would have thrown my hat into the ring.

Oh, holdonaminute, I hear mumbling in the background...

You mean bitcoinorama wasn't SENT?
He paid his own way from the U.K. to Stockholm?

In other words, if it is too difficult to understand that the people that visited KnC were not representing us, but themselves, mining bitcoins might be a venture that is best left to folks with a bit higher mental capacity.
Stick with lottery tickets.


The OP stated that the first post was all recollection.

Someone claims to be interested in dropping a small fortune in bitcoin miners, but happen to be too lazy to read opinions of people that have actually visited the people in whose trust is required with said fortune...
Liar or Fool?

-----------------------

Thanks for the prologue, 'orama.

I look forward to the 'real' report.

Yeah whatever buddy. Considering you don't understand the meaning of the word "taint" when used in this context. I'll take nothing you say seriously so stop trying to split hairs and put words in my mouth, it seems comprehension isn't your strong point.

You go ahead and read peoples opinions. I'd rather read facts. I've read plenty of Bitcoinoramas opinions, he has mine, we both know where we stand. I believe he is being overly optimistic, he probably thinks I'm an arse but for all the Jonny come latelys who think I've just had bad things to say about KNC try reading the whole openday thread before running your mouths.

If you had read the whole thread you would probably have learnt nothing you did not already know from what bitcoinarama wrote. He likes them, he liked them from day one. Is this news? No. So forgive me for not wasting my time reading it again. I'll wait for the facts.

Once again Bitcoinorama thanks for taking the time to do this. May I suggest uploading the audio instead of transcribing it? It would save you a lot of time. I could edit it if needs be.

Liar or Fool?

You tell me that I can't understand where you are coming from, but your slothful inability to place enough effort into realizing the OP was only editorial is telling.

I get it, you are a wannabe Puerto Libre, smoothie or Phinneas Gage.
However, those folks are smart, funny and/or relentless in efforts to find truth.
You are zero for three.

[Bitcoinorama]

Guy's please, without breaking out the popcorn, this is where the thread begins to derail.

Let's keep it on point, or at the very least light hearted.

I started a new thread, as the main thread is hard to work through.

I'd rather we had quality, over quantity.

Peace (and hugz)...

[retro72]

Liar or Fool?

You tell me that I can't understand where you are coming from, but your slothful inability to place enough effort into realizing the OP was only editorial is telling.

I get it, you are a wannabe Puerto Libre, smoothie or Phinneas Gage.
However, those folks are smart, funny and/or relentless in efforts to find truth.
You are zero for three.

I rest my case

Anyhooo.......Looking forward to updates

[Coinmining]

First of all: BitcoinOrama thanks very much for your effort and chairing with the community.

As i understand, KnC has the full design of the chip ready. Why did they not release any specs to the visitors?
How many chips are they gonna use in there devices? What is the Hash rate for one chip? What is the power consumpion of one chip?
My understanding is that a 28nm chip can be much more power efficient than the one they are using...

Do you have more info about that?

[dacman61]

alright, once I see it actually hashing then I will buy the product...

By then it'll be too late and you will be behind the curve. Dive in now head first like I have on a Jupiter and Saturn. Take some risk.

[a1phanumrc]

Very nice report.

Thank you for taking the time to go and write it up.

[billotronic]

Nice write up! The shit I just took was epic!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Read page one. Excellent OP. Will read the rest latter.

[KS]

I think I'll wait for the abridged version  

Now I know lots of you are going to get your panties in a bunch for me saying this but.....

Could you just post the straight unvarnished answers to the questions. I started reading your post, skipped the Ryanair nonsense then started on the novel that followed, I soon lost the will when I discovered it was another bitcoinorama circle jerk. High on vague assumptions, Low on facts.( Marcus is a perfectionist, living in a James bond lair........really?  )

I appreciate you taking the time out to do this but sending the most Pro/biased/lobbyist for KNCminer on the forum probably wasn't a great idea if we wanted an objective opinion.  Also Bitcoinorams motivations are becoming clearer. He's angling for a job in the bitcoin industry, hopefully with KNC (PR maybe?)so take what he says with a large grain of salt.

Can we please have some facts rather than speculation, assumptions and wishful thinking. Some of us are still considering making this investment and could do with information sans rose tint and varnish.

And before you say it. I should go and do it myself. Believe me I will. I'm looking at purchasing multiple machines and have a couple of friends interested also. I won't be dropping any money utill I've thoroughly checked this out. I was hoping some fundamental questions would have be answered but as of today the are still holes you can drive a bus through.

Mate, if you read the first handful of lines, I stated I was getting down what I remembered off the top of my head whilst it's there. I also stated I was aware everyone was chomping at the bit for me to publish something sooner, rather than later. I also stated there is hours of recording and I asked every question that was asked of me and more. I asked them as they were written, regardless of whether they had been answered before, so I could give you the unadulterated opinion from the horses mouth. I also stated; 5) This keeps the actual Q&A clean and separate from my own opinion. So you can wait for me to drip feed the questions as I dedicate the time that I can afford (I do have a life), whilst that takes place it only made sense that I jotted down what I perceived to a fresh opinion having just been in attendance myself...

10 lines bro, you could have made it that far...

So, did you buy anything yet?

I see that you aren't reading everything related to KnC, but you always have a grudge against them (only you know why). He already stated that he bought a Jupiter.

quote please?

[rammy2k2]

no pics ?

[benderooo]

Good to hear. Thanks for writing.