BitcoinOrama Report on the KnCminer/OrSoC Open-day Mon 10/06/13 (Stockholm)

[Bitcoinorama]

I'm placing it in a thread of it's own to save searching through the old thread of 100+ pages. I think that's better for all concerned.

Ok where to start, to keep this clean and simple, I'm going to summarise below what I remember from the top of my head.  

Why?

Well it serves a few of purposes.

1) I want to get it down
2) I need to go to a meeting an hour ago.
3) Recordings are hours long and will take me hours.
4) You lot are impatient and I'm going to take a leaf out of KnC's book. I'd rather give you something worthwhile now and work on refinement later.
5) This keeps the actual Q&A clean and separate from my own opinion.
6) I'm actual typing this first paragraph above after i've written what exists below so it's too late now...
7) My hands really hurt!

Before detailing the time spent at the ORSoC offices with all those involved in KnC. I'd like to tell a little true account of my travel to and from which fittingly describes two competing companies; one that get's the product offering, and associated customer service very, very right, and another that fails miserably. If in the course of this I can at least save one person the misfortune of travelling with Ryanair, then it's worthy of my effort.

Admittedly I booked late, both flights literally a day before travel. Ryanair I will always avoid wherever possible whatever the expense; the supposedly 'budget' airline is never overt with their true cost, it literally takes three-four times as long to complete payment and turn down every up-sell imposed upon you than another competitor (kind of like buying a domain from GoDaddy). You are required to check in beforehand which means internet and a printer (or a £40 fine). Whilst checking in be prepared to be lambasted with all the previous up-sells you declined. If you manage to escape that unscathed, you then have the minefield of making sure you physically print your ticket, or your denied boarding, a bag a centimetre over their requirements, your denied boarding, buy anything in duty free? Did the shop kindly place your items in a bag? Does it not fit in your hand luggage? Denied boarding. What kind of experience entails customers shi**ing themselves as to whether they will get what they paid for from you?!

I'm sure you see the applicable relevance here and the underlying metaphor, but upon boarding the plane, Ryanair has the equivalent of a club bouncer rejecting people upon arrival...and they did. I was at the tail end of boarding, and within 20 people ahead of me they denied 5, well 4, they made one couple actually separate and the boyfriend have to purchase a second later flight. Disgusting behaviour enforced by their CEO Micael O'Leary the same ****wit that has been caught overcharging additional unannounced fees, wanting to charge for toilet usage when you are in the air, and a more recent idea to remove seating from planes and have paying customers stand the duration of the flight, cattle class.

Alas, this despicable company was my only choice left, 'budget' only truly applies to the unwillingness of the airline itself to spend, the cost to me was actually 6 times more than the return flight!!!

I paid £250 for a flight in which all reclining functionality of the seats had been purposefully removed, and not once could you close your eyes as every 10 minutes was announced a new means to remove further monies from you be it; drinks, food, products you don't want, need, or care for, requiring constant reassurance to the stewards/esses that won't take no for an answer or acknowledge you. As a final insult to injury the plane lands with a fanfare to reassure you they've raped you as much as possible on landing.

The return in contrast was with Norwegian airlines, booked the day before flight for £39! No up-sell. Check-in prior, no worries if you have no internet, you can do so at the train station whenever you like, with a text to your mobile, before even heading to the airport (not an option for the aforementioned airline), want to choose your seat? Sure go for it at point of check in (additional cost with Ryanair), bag a little over, or purchased anything extra, no problem bring it on board. Full leather reclining recaro seats, wifi on board!!?! Zero charge to you. Drinks, food available at your request, no forced selling. Very polite and extremely presentable staff (In fact they were very good looking, but that in itself is generally luck, but they made every effort to remain relaxed, polite and presentable in addition). In essence, everything one would expect, the perfect customer experience at a very fair fare.

You can see where I'm going with this; I believe BFL had all the best intentions in the beginning, but in all fairness I see more of Ryanair in BFL than i'm comfortable with.

Not saying we should expect the Norwegian Air treatment from KnC, purely because they are neighbours, but so far i'm seeing more of Norwegian Air's traits than the former, and that in itself is welcome!

So without further ado...

Rocked up at ORSoC precisely for 2pm. Easy enough to find, Swedish people are very helpful by nature so if I requested any assistance from anyone, they went above and beyond the call of duty to help. Most of Stockholm is in walking distance, and as such Swedes aside from being less than unfortunate looking as a whole are generally in good keeping physically.

The same can be said for the team at ORSoC the guys are surprisingly well groomed, and fit for geeks, that said there is no doubting their tech know how which we will cover in a sec.

Present from ORSoC were; CTO, Marcus Erlandsson, who is pretty much the brains behind our future mining devices. He's kept out of any of the day to day business aspects on purpose. A perfectionist, who to be honest will never be happy with Saturn or Jupiter (well certainly not the first revision – more on that later). The issue here is he loves to tinker, pure engineer through and through. Actually ****ing hilarious to share banter with, he has plenty of amusing anecdotes and proof of other ORSoC work and that of his own devising. His entire house is 'Bond lair' of automation, and security controlled from software he wrote for his 'droid phone. He sits and configured his house lighting from his hands, serving no purpose other than to wind his wife up when he's in a bar with friends. She's potentially the only spouse happy to see her husband occupied the next few months...

CEO, Johan Rilegård, sharp, but calm character. To his disservice, I didn't fully acknowledge who he was to begin with. He was in and out of the Q&A Room, letting Sam and Andreas field the questions. He very much has a supervisory role over his team. Engineers as you may know take a particular tact to deal with. Marcus is surprisingly approachable as one, but Johan and Sam will be ensuring time is not in anyway wasted by needless perfectionism.

Others that visited may be able to fill you in more with Johan and the workshop next door. I concentrated more on what Sam and Andreas were bringing to the table.

Sam Cole, by his admission will never win a spelling bee, but for those questioning his business acumen, or sincerity so far; the guy to his credit did not refuse, or hesitate upon a single question from anyone. He clearly is well versed in business in IT. For those making assumptions for his intentions pertaining to pre-orders, pricing, or communications thus far; pure hyperbole, any of the other attendees could see these guys are totally serious about this undertaking.

Andreas Kennemar, was present for every moment, aside fielding phone calls to the KnC hotline (a mobile he has with him at all times). For those impatient many (if any are from this forum and reading this) that could not wait and had to call constantly whilst knowing full well we were trying to work through the plethora of questions at the open day. Thanks, really helpful...

That said, Andreas, by his own admission is not as confident with English as the other guys, and being that ORSoC in no uncertain terms have very specific roles to concentrate on is the reason Sam's been the goto guy.

Also worth mentioning is all are in their early to mid-thirties (at a guess), all were bright guys, undeniably. These aren't fly by night reckless wannabes that have seen a potential short-term money spinner in a Bitcoin fad/craze. They want a business, a real multi-revenue long-term business in cyptocurrency. Regardless of whether Bitcoin or whether any of the other currencies come and go, cyptocurrencies are here to stay. Bitcoin has the first mover, OG, most distributed network and for it to survive, it has to stay that way. There is no point in letting greed take over and killing off all the GPU rigs and farms and shutting those people out.

They are Bitcoin.

Almost certainly they will have reaped the most rewards, but the progression to ASIC and setting yourself up as a business is the another iterative step in legitimising Bitcoin and mainstream acceptance.

If Avalon get their shit together and make a real business out of what they are doing, develop a more efficient chip and KnC deliver ton heir promise of 28nm – 175/350 Gh/s – this September – 3 months! Then Bitcoin can only be made healthier, stronger, and more secure by increased competition. KnC/ORSoC are confident they can devise an answer to whatever any competitor throws at them along the way. Marcus is especially competitive.

He found it hilarious we spent more time discussing Swedish women over discussing the last open-day.

If any of you have chosen delivery over pick-up in person, you are mad. The women alone are worth the journey.

What you saw of Mars was it firing 6 Gh/s in the initial video and a pissed off Marcus who didn't want to be filmed on a fifth take as Sam asked questions randomly. Marcus wasn't happy he wanted to show what he could really pump out of it.

The 5.1 Gh/s FPGA stock was pumping out a solid and stable 6gh/s as promised, so Sam filmed it. Sam's not 100% comfortable being filmed either, but Andreas's is English isn't as great as Sam, who is English, hence a slightly tense and awkward first video.

Mars is now comfortably hitting 6.8 Gh/s stable since Marcus has been allowed to do some of the tweaks he wasn't allowed previously. In the interim as the final ASIC design is already being bid over by the chip manufactures to tender the job by September.

Yes the chip is going from FPGA to ASIC in production immediately, After the first prototype is made they are out the door with very little margin for error. Balls are swinging low.

Sam, Andreas and Johan fully understand the time restraints. The under promise, over deliver mantra at the beginning of the KnC main thread I was harping on about with respect to BFL's failings and other optimistic claims companies were throwing around is fully acknowledged and adopted. The issue here is prising the toys away from Marcus at a point at which they meet the given specs and delivering as promised. Hence Marcus built a 6gh/s FPGA from scratch in under six weeks, and then tested for stability before recording.

The chip manufacturer I believe is chosen today. Sam was quite matter of fact about how they aim to hit September, they have worked through every feasible route anticipating points of failure and de-risked as much as possible. ORSoC being who the are have obviously contacts with multiple PCB fabricators, and are splitting orders to ensure delivery. Everything is being done to ensure scalability is present as well. They said they can confidently handle any order size and growth. Any delays will be documented and evidence presented. They will be transparent through any delay. This is where the confusion with BFL exists, why aren't they doing this?

The Saturn and Jupiter Chips unsurprisingly Marcus is not happy with. The final design has been tested and again any risk to stability of the chip minimised. It has to work from the outset, a revision of the mask would cost an additional three months lead. Suffice to say Marcus could do so much more to it and intends to. There will be further revisions to the chip in future as he has a lot left to play with in a 28nm ASIC. This is no where near the most complicated ASIC chip he has designed.

In the interim he fully intends to blow up Mars. Hopefully on video. He's not done there 6.8gh/s is 33%. 6gh/s is 17.6%. He reckons there is much more that bad-boy can take before it becomes unstable. Whether the ASICs under-perform or not, this first revision is being to just work, plain stability. If it means more chips you still get 173/350 Gh/s in September.

This is a Formula One race as they see it.  Time is everything.

I've been around some private venture capital since leaving uni and this is not all that different. It's not a bank loan, it's still private money, investors funds are not guaranteed against failure (unless via consumer protection in which you independently raise funds through those channels). YOU are paying for non-recurring engineering costs. Once that is covered they can start to make a profit themselves. They want to set the standard, their 28nm chip is the one to beat and they want competition. Scalability and automation were two keywords I wanted and did hear unprompted.

The issue with making cheaper products and encouraging direct sales to non business is customer service. That is expensive and can potentially as in the case with BFL have to realistically be large and full time to cope, or you drown under it. The concept of selling 5 Gh/s and unconditional lifetime warranty is a huge response, but they have some novel ideas to allow Mom 'n Pop Bitcoin to get involved in Bitcoin at what ever level they would like. It would involve pooling and a potential other cottage industry, but Bitcoin is turning into a professional real currency and KnC what to deal direct with guys n' gals that want to take this venture seriously.

They will have solutions in future for all pockets though. It's about distributing and securing the network with as many parties as possible.

Incidentally server farms and hosting fees are still being negotiated. There are costs associated required w.r.t. amount of management they determine is needed to limit downtime. These have been looked at across the north of Sweden (no problem of it overheating there!), and I think I heard Norway. Pretty sure this bit is recorded so will come across that later.

So what did I take from this? I'm aware of the risks, but there is no way I believe these guys aren't sincerely attempting to develop an ASIC miner to the best of their abilities.

Also, although I have not yet met any other parties involved in the ASIC dev race in person, so cannot speak for their skills they individually bring to the table, but ORSoC are the real deal and exceptionally smart.

Sam and Andreas are definitely well versed and capable in tech and business. Stockholm is one of the best places for this tech project to take place, they have so much of it on their doorstep. They are already ahead of where they have stated they will be at this point. Mars is an ongoing test unit of what can now be expected in future.

Would I tell you to bet the farm on them? Never. Would I personally advise getting into debt over this right now? Nope. I am definitely more confident for attending. I have an order for Jupiter which I can afford.

The big issues for me is timing with respect to ROI and competition, known and unknown and the future price of Bitcoin. I don't doubt KnC will give me a miner for my money, I wish some people with similar visions of Bitcoin would put as much effort in designing products and services that utilise the coin as a currency. There are huge returns there for those that encourage and create opportunity for Bitcoin expenditure.

The guys attending with me were all bright guys as well, they were equally impressed and I can understand why last weeks attendees were content. If i'm honest as long as you understand this for what it is; an educated gamble on both an engineering firm with vast contacts creating a product that rewards your investment, and energy expenditure, whilst participating in a fair alternative to known currency, believing it has a realistic chance of mainstream adoption, at some future point in time, or at least so that the network is able to extend itself geographically within the hands of as many individuals as possible, and exist. There are many unknowns there, but these are certainly interesting times.

Whether i'm confident enough to buy more than one, i'm debating. I would sooner consider working on this project with them. I studied in a relevant discipline and every thing about this, and Bitcoin I feel has legs. London hasn't offered anything inline with what I studied, or Bitcoin. There is ample financial fiat fraud there. The wannabe tech hub of east London talks a good game, but the talent is in Cambridge. I'm surprised no one is on the case there. I'm surprised someone is not all over my Uni's facilities. I'm astounded Germany isn't offering solutions to mining aside the more respected DIYers. Sweden is no surprise to me.

This is not some scam firm supposedly operating out of Lebanon glueing components onto sawn off ATX boards called Cedartec, or an entire rooms worth of Liquid Nitrogen cooling packed into a 2 foot cube, by the name of Cryonics. It is not a successive change of hands with multiple instances of trust with unknowns in the current DIY minefield. It's not genuine competition needing to hire engineering consultants who are motivated by hourly fees and have no direct desire to see this project or Bitcoin itself survive.

This is a real FPGA and ASIC engineering firm with vested interest in seeing this and Bitcoin succeed long term dedicated to working on board the entire time and they have superstar talent.

I mean if this all worked out and Bitcoin became an accepted means of storing wealth securely, transferring wealth anywhere quickly, at minimal cost ad with steady growth overt time, without deflation, or for that matter an cryptocurrency, now is the time to be risking entry whilst it's still very much about to leave the ground floor. I also want to watch Marcus detonate Mars.

Note: The above is based upon my recollection and opinion as it stands currently. The bits that can be held accountable for come next when I go through who said what in order of the list other members contributed to. I haven't heard it all yet. I'll tackle that tomo.

Also in case you care, f**k me is Sweden expensive. Even considering London. To put it in perspective, going by the McDonalds index, a Mc D's meal will cost you in the region of 66-75% more than in London. I know Norway is well over double, but didn't remember Stockholm being THAT pricey. For the record i'd never eat there, but it's a litmus test.

A 500 ml bottle of water is about £2.50 everywhere. Alcohol you can only buy for personal consumption in a weird government controlled shop that opens in line with bank hours and days. So not at the weekend. A 500ml beer (they don't serve pints) in a pub was around £7. Accommodation costs no idea, I know there is some strange system of the government own all the freeholds and there is several tiers of leaseholds and sub-lettings, i've been assured that's also expensive!

Byyeeeee! (Tips appreciated, see below! )




P.s. They did say they hope all those in group shares do honour those contracts, but KnC are not liable for anything but communication with the owner himself.

They want see ideas like that in future, but need to devise away to ensure it's safe for all concerned. They have nothing to do with the current offerings.

[1715435215]

1715435215

[1715435215]

1715435215

[1715435215]

1715435215

[1715435215]

1715435215

[1715435215]

1715435215

[Xialla]

great thread, thanks a lot dude

[glendall]

Thanks ! Great detail and depth.

[k9quaint]

TL;DR
How many Hashes per Kate Upton do they get?

[blastbob]

P.s. They did say they hope all those in group shares do honour those contracts, but KnC are not liable for anything but communication with the owner himself.

Its the opposite on my end, if they honor their delivery time, there will be no problems

[btceic]

Superb,
Thank you for this!

[Streets 2.0]

Awesome write up!!!!

[titomane]

Thanks again

[HeRetiK]

Great writeup, thanks!

[bobsmoke]

Awesome contribution!

[Korbman]

Fantastic write-up. I await your update based on the recordings!

[newmars]

excellent report 

[dogie]

tldr anyone please?

[k9quaint]

tldr anyone please?

Oh just read it you lazy git. 

[Flying Hellfish]

tldr anyone please?

He likes them.

[CoinHoarder]

tldr anyone please?

kncminer is swole brah 

[TheSwede75]

Swedish engineers man, awkward, introvert, funny and fucking smart

[warhawk187]

Thanks for the awesome report. I hope KNCMiner can set a new standard for customer relations/transparency because as it stand right now its absolutely terrible.

[Xian01]

So you're saying it's more-or-less OK to throw money at these people ?

[Tehfiend]

Thanks for the info. I have high hopes these guys set a new trend for professional and transparent ASIC miner production.

[glendall]

tldr anyone please?

Swedish women are really, really hot. But beer is pretty expensive in the country, so it's not paradise.  Oh and something about KNC being pretty legit.  

[RoboCoder]

Great information - thanks for doing this!

[dan99]

Thanks for the great report.. where are the photos?

[Bitcoinorama]

So you're saying it's more-or-less OK to throw money at these people ?

I don't think it's wise to throw money at anyone. I've said that numerous times.

This point in time in the 'ASIC race' you're speculating (gambling) on informed odds.

This is what it is, a shit-hot integrated circuit design team, pairing up with two well versed IT Architects with real business experience.

They are actively minimising risk wherever possible. More tomorrow. They know what's at stake.

Developing 28nm ASICs has NRE in the millions, hence the pre-ordering. Avalon's 110nm tech would have been in the hundreds of thousands. If KnC manage this, the bar will have been raised, the gauntlet thrown down, and only professional firms of engineers need apply.  No more mickey mouse shenanigans. There will be no more uni dropouts capable of hustling competitively. KnC have a lot of respect for Yifu and want him to remain a player. I had my collar pulled on my $0.5-$2 per ASIC claims. I took that from a 2005 book (ASIC Basics), app that def does not apply to 28nm...

I have no crystal ball, but they are not wantonly out to thieve your funds, they do have the ability, there is 100% agreement from all attendees on this.

Hopefully if you're genuinely considering this, you have done/will continue to do your own research / perform due diligence, and understand what's at stake for you, and where you can minimise your risks (Credit Card for security when purchasing, not for getting into debt).

I'm not advising anyone does anything but uses common sense. You know your own risk tolerance. I've been as transparant as possible here.

People saying, too long to read, cool, can't please anyone. I know the shit i'd be on the receiving end of if I was too brief.

But for TL;DR lazy bastards, to sum it up; the guy doing the designing, Marcus, in a nut shell is a young version of James Bond's 'Q', maybe even the current rendition, whichever's cooler. If you don't have clue what i'm alluding to; GIYF! It won't cost you a quater...

I did my best.

Pics tomo, some of them. Daggeteo needs to clear a couple due to account info present. I'm hoping other guys took more pics than me, as I focused on recording the grilling I was giving them.
--
BTW for those stating ORSoC failed with their Open RISC project, they did not. They've failed to raise sufficient funding for that project to design an open-source CPU, currently. The monies have gone no where. The amounts the investors involved have contributed thus far are openly available on the open cores site. We were shown this. Peeps can have their cash back at any-point, though Paypal takes their 5% cut, even on donations! Marcus himself has donated €3,000 (or was it $?!) from his own pocket. The rest vary. Predominantly $25. If they could get *I think* it was $25 off quarter of their Opencores membership there will be a world first Opensource CPU.

Feel free to donate to ORSoC's Opencores OpenRISC project in three months once you get hold of your miners if you believe in them by then.

http://opencores.org/donation

[FCTaiChi]

Thank you

[Trongersoll]

Since nonone else asked, Did you get to meet Lisbeth?   

[Bitcoinorama]

Since nonone else asked, Did you get to meet Lisbeth?  

No, but I kid you not, I met a Mexican girl on her way from Stockholm to the 'sleepy town of Uppsala' on her way to pay homage!

Another famous Swede you may, or may not know about, and like Satoshi Yakamoto, no one knows for sure if it's one or many behind the mask...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnXMx__wlJU

(this is kind of what Marcus is about to put Mars through)

[Trongersoll]

Since nonone else asked, Did you get to meet Lisbeth?  

No, but I kid you not, I met a Mexican girl on her way from Stockholm to the 'sleepy town of Uppsala' on her way to pay homage!

Another famous Swede you may, or may not know about, and like Satoshi Yakamoto, no one knows for sure if it's one or many behind the mask...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnXMx__wlJU

(this is kind of what Marcus is about to put Mars through)

I had done some crazy shit when i used to ride, but this is Insane. Don't try this at home

[Bitcoinorama]

Since nonone else asked, Did you get to meet Lisbeth?  

No, but I kid you not, I met a Mexican girl on her way from Stockholm to the 'sleepy town of Uppsala' on her way to pay homage!

Another famous Swede you may, or may not know about, and like Satoshi Yakamoto, no one knows for sure if it's one or many behind the mask...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnXMx__wlJU

(this is kind of what Marcus is about to put Mars through)

I had done some crazy shit when i used to ride, but this is Insane. Don't try this at home

Enjoy...!

http://youtu.be/Hk3KwCfO5x8

[dan99]

Ok, cool, we look forward to some of your photos, a picture is worth a thousand words they say ...thanks

[Bitcoinorama]

Ok, cool, we look forward to some of your photos, a picture is worth a thousand words they say ...thanks

Thank f**k I didn't take too may photos, or my current word count wouldn't translate to the equivalent value in pictures.

[bitpop]

Very thank you

[minternj]

Wow so they just picked the chip manufacturer today?

[suryc]

Thank you very much for taking the time to do this.
Excellent info.

[idee2013]

Thanks for the info. I have high hopes these guys set a new trend for professional and transparent ASIC miner production.

+1

i think, it is the first really proffesional and experienced eletronic company which is only entering the bitcoin market very well supported by KNC...

[sickpig]

Bro as I already said I really do appreciate your work, and I'm more than impressed by what I'm reading especially when you describe Marcus' way of working
Till now I found this two info the most informative among all:

[cut]
.... In the interim as the final ASIC design is already being bid over by the chip manufactures to tender the job by September.

The chip manufacturer I believe is chosen today.  ...

And when I read this:

Yes the chip is going from FPGA to ASIC in production immediately, After the first prototype is made they are out the door with very little margin for error. Balls are swinging low.

a shiver run down my spine

[bobsmoke]

You got yourself a place in the Kncminer website : )
https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-19

[yxt]

I vote for express delivery with ghost rider 

[sickpig]

I vote for express delivery with ghost rider 

ROTFL

[phor2zero]

Thanx much for your report!

[notung]

Thanks a lot!

I appreciate your thoughts and info. Now I'm just regretting not have chosen the local pickup.... ;-)

Cheers!

[namzycad3]

I vote for express delivery with ghost rider 

i tot he mistakenly heard KnC got 50% discount if pay at their office, thus the speed

[keyzersoze]

I did attend that same meeting, monday. And can vouch for the truthfullness, objectivety and accuracy of Bitcoinoramas account of the whole thing. Allthough i left a couple of hours before he did, i was there for about 3 hours. They were very open, honest and proffesional.
I especially enjoyed talking to Marcus, since he sort of represented the "brains" behind our miners. I really get the feeling that he's itching do so much more with theese chips and all the tech he has att his disposal. But at the moment having to prioritize the september deadline. To further the analogy put forth earlier about this being a formula 1 race, Marcus is comparing this to building a F1 car.  Why bother with a go-kart = Fpga when you can build the best "Formula 1" asic miner. So thats what they have just started to do with Saturn and Jupiter at current specs, and OrSoc are no where near done with what they can achieve.
That eludes to the kinds of margins they have at the moment with this 28nm chip, and bodes well for the future of knc products and customers.

[Kapz786]

Thanks for the effort Bitcoinorama very informative =D

[retro72]

I think I'll wait for the abridged version 

Now I know lots of you are going to get your panties in a bunch for me saying this but.....

Could you just post the straight unvarnished answers to the questions. I started reading your post, skipped the Ryanair nonsense then started on the novel that followed, I soon lost the will when I discovered it was another bitcoinorama circle jerk. High on vague assumptions, Low on facts.( Marcus is a perfectionist, living in a James bond lair........really?  )

I appreciate you taking the time out to do this but sending the most Pro/biased/lobbyist for KNCminer on the forum probably wasn't a great idea if we wanted an objective opinion.  Also Bitcoinorams motivations are becoming clearer. He's angling for a job in the bitcoin industry, hopefully with KNC (PR maybe?)so take what he says with a large grain of salt.

Can we please have some facts rather than speculation, assumptions and wishful thinking. Some of us are still considering making this investment and could do with information sans rose tint and varnish.

And before you say it. I should go and do it myself. Believe me I will. I'm looking at purchasing multiple machines and have a couple of friends interested also. I won't be dropping any money utill I've thoroughly checked this out. I was hoping some fundamental questions would have be answered but as of today the are still holes you can drive a bus through.

[Madazam]

Thanks to all who visited and gave us an inside look in KNC....

[Bitcoinorama]

I think I'll wait for the abridged version  

Now I know lots of you are going to get your panties in a bunch for me saying this but.....

Could you just post the straight unvarnished answers to the questions. I started reading your post, skipped the Ryanair nonsense then started on the novel that followed, I soon lost the will when I discovered it was another bitcoinorama circle jerk. High on vague assumptions, Low on facts.( Marcus is a perfectionist, living in a James bond lair........really?  )

I appreciate you taking the time out to do this but sending the most Pro/biased/lobbyist for KNCminer on the forum probably wasn't a great idea if we wanted an objective opinion.  Also Bitcoinorams motivations are becoming clearer. He's angling for a job in the bitcoin industry, hopefully with KNC (PR maybe?)so take what he says with a large grain of salt.

Can we please have some facts rather than speculation, assumptions and wishful thinking. Some of us are still considering making this investment and could do with information sans rose tint and varnish.

And before you say it. I should go and do it myself. Believe me I will. I'm looking at purchasing multiple machines and have a couple of friends interested also. I won't be dropping any money utill I've thoroughly checked this out. I was hoping some fundamental questions would have be answered but as of today the are still holes you can drive a bus through.

Mate, if you read the first handful of lines, I stated I was getting down what I remembered off the top of my head whilst it's there. I also stated I was aware everyone was chomping at the bit for me to publish something sooner, rather than later. I also stated there is hours of recording and I asked every question that was asked of me and more. I asked them as they were written, regardless of whether they had been answered before, so I could give you the unadulterated opinion from the horses mouth. I also stated; 5) This keeps the actual Q&A clean and separate from my own opinion. So you can wait for me to drip feed the questions as I dedicate the time that I can afford (I do have a life), whilst that takes place it only made sense that I jotted down what I perceived to a fresh opinion having just been in attendance myself...

10 lines bro, you could have made it that far...

[KS]

I think I'll wait for the abridged version  

Now I know lots of you are going to get your panties in a bunch for me saying this but.....

Could you just post the straight unvarnished answers to the questions. I started reading your post, skipped the Ryanair nonsense then started on the novel that followed, I soon lost the will when I discovered it was another bitcoinorama circle jerk. High on vague assumptions, Low on facts.( Marcus is a perfectionist, living in a James bond lair........really?  )

I appreciate you taking the time out to do this but sending the most Pro/biased/lobbyist for KNCminer on the forum probably wasn't a great idea if we wanted an objective opinion.  Also Bitcoinorams motivations are becoming clearer. He's angling for a job in the bitcoin industry, hopefully with KNC (PR maybe?)so take what he says with a large grain of salt.

Can we please have some facts rather than speculation, assumptions and wishful thinking. Some of us are still considering making this investment and could do with information sans rose tint and varnish.

And before you say it. I should go and do it myself. Believe me I will. I'm looking at purchasing multiple machines and have a couple of friends interested also. I won't be dropping any money utill I've thoroughly checked this out. I was hoping some fundamental questions would have be answered but as of today the are still holes you can drive a bus through.

Mate, if you read the first handful of lines, I stated I was getting down what I remembered off the top of my head whilst it's there. I also stated I was aware everyone was chomping at the bit for me to publish something sooner, rather than later. I also stated there is hours of recording and I asked every question that was asked of me and more. I asked them as they were written, regardless of whether they had been answered before, so I could give you the unadulterated opinion from the horses mouth. I also stated; 5) This keeps the actual Q&A clean and separate from my own opinion. So you can wait for me to drip feed the questions as I dedicate the time that I can afford (I do have a life), whilst that takes place it only made sense that I jotted down what I perceived to a fresh opinion having just been in attendance myself...

10 lines bro, you could have made it that far...

So, did you buy anything yet?

[sickpig]

So, did you buy anything yet?

Whether i'm confident enough to buy more than one, i'm debating.

it seems so then... 

[erschiessen]

I appreciate you taking the time out to do this but sending the most Pro/biased/lobbyist for KNCminer on the forum probably wasn't a great idea if we wanted an objective opinion. 

Wow, I din't realize that we, as bitcointalk members, SENT people to KNC.
I would have thrown my hat into the ring.

Oh, holdonaminute, I hear mumbling in the background...

You mean bitcoinorama wasn't SENT?
He paid his own way from the U.K. to Stockholm?

In other words, if it is too difficult to understand that the people that visited KnC were not representing us, but themselves, mining bitcoins might be a venture that is best left to folks with a bit higher mental capacity.
Stick with lottery tickets.


The OP stated that the first post was all recollection.

Someone claims to be interested in dropping a small fortune in bitcoin miners, but happen to be too lazy to read opinions of people that have actually visited the people in whose trust is required with said fortune...
Liar or Fool?

-----------------------

Thanks for the prologue, 'orama.

I look forward to the 'real' report.

[RoadStress]

I think I'll wait for the abridged version  

Now I know lots of you are going to get your panties in a bunch for me saying this but.....

Could you just post the straight unvarnished answers to the questions. I started reading your post, skipped the Ryanair nonsense then started on the novel that followed, I soon lost the will when I discovered it was another bitcoinorama circle jerk. High on vague assumptions, Low on facts.( Marcus is a perfectionist, living in a James bond lair........really?  )

I appreciate you taking the time out to do this but sending the most Pro/biased/lobbyist for KNCminer on the forum probably wasn't a great idea if we wanted an objective opinion.  Also Bitcoinorams motivations are becoming clearer. He's angling for a job in the bitcoin industry, hopefully with KNC (PR maybe?)so take what he says with a large grain of salt.

Can we please have some facts rather than speculation, assumptions and wishful thinking. Some of us are still considering making this investment and could do with information sans rose tint and varnish.

And before you say it. I should go and do it myself. Believe me I will. I'm looking at purchasing multiple machines and have a couple of friends interested also. I won't be dropping any money utill I've thoroughly checked this out. I was hoping some fundamental questions would have be answered but as of today the are still holes you can drive a bus through.

Mate, if you read the first handful of lines, I stated I was getting down what I remembered off the top of my head whilst it's there. I also stated I was aware everyone was chomping at the bit for me to publish something sooner, rather than later. I also stated there is hours of recording and I asked every question that was asked of me and more. I asked them as they were written, regardless of whether they had been answered before, so I could give you the unadulterated opinion from the horses mouth. I also stated; 5) This keeps the actual Q&A clean and separate from my own opinion. So you can wait for me to drip feed the questions as I dedicate the time that I can afford (I do have a life), whilst that takes place it only made sense that I jotted down what I perceived to a fresh opinion having just been in attendance myself...

10 lines bro, you could have made it that far...

So, did you buy anything yet?

I see that you aren't reading everything related to KnC, but you always have a grudge against them (only you know why). He already stated that he bought a Jupiter.

[innovation]

Great post. So many thanks.

[Bitcoinorama]

I appreciate you taking the time out to do this but sending the most Pro/biased/lobbyist for KNCminer on the forum probably wasn't a great idea if we wanted an objective opinion.  

Wow, I din't realize that we, as bitcointalk members, SENT people to KNC.
I would have thrown my hat into the ring.

Oh, holdonaminute, I hear mumbling in the background...

You mean bitcoinorama wasn't SENT?
He paid his own way from the U.K. to Stockholm?

In other words, if it is too difficult to understand that the people that visited KnC were not representing us, but themselves, mining bitcoins might be a venture that is best left to folks with a bit higher mental capacity.
Stick with lottery tickets.


The OP stated that the first post was all recollection.

Someone claims to be interested in dropping a small fortune in bitcoin miners, but happen to be too lazy to read opinions of people that have actually visited the people in whose trust is required with said fortune...
Liar or Fool?

-----------------------

Thanks for the prologue, 'orama.

I look forward to the 'real' report.

No worries. Look I'm well aware my prior optimisim based upon the reading I did around ORSoC and Sam and Andreas. As well as the email communications I had back and fourth, but believe it or not I always had tried to remain objective, step away and view it as a third party may, the fact is I did take the time out from my own life and eat into the funds I had saved for a 24 hour jaunt and left as confident as any of the other attendees who also deserve credit for getting off their backsides and taking the time to visit.

As far as I'm aware the door isn't closed there, you are more than welcome to meet the guys anytime you want. Obv a prior heads up is fair game, but they are very approachable.

The next bit I shall take more time over, but won't 'taint' it with my 'bias'.

For the record I've always been 'pro' a legitimate company. This is what I see here.

I think Terrahash may do well for the DIY crowd.

I like Avalon, but I don't consider them professional (yet - come on Yifu! )

BFL, well...I want to see them come good, but I find their silence and contempt disturbing. Also there is not way they haven't been purposefully and knowingly dishonest along the way. At the very least w.r.t. to continuous promises of 'two weeks'. There is no excuse for their lack of supporting evidence they could as a genuine company present to back up their claims of numerous delays.

And apparently some do need sheparding from the likes of Cedartec, Cryonics, ASICrigs, etc.

I do not have a sinister alterior motive. These should be exciting times for all involved, we are all part of something positive and proactive in our lifetimes potentially fixing a very corrupt system with social engineering. I don't want to see people burnt long the way, I really don't. There's enough hashrate for all those involved in the forum.

[erschiessen]

You said 'taint'
  

[67152398]

Thank you very much for BitcoinOrama brings information.

[Bitcoinorama]

You said 'taint'
  

taint  
/tānt/
Noun
A trace of a bad or undesirable quality or substance: "the taint of corruption".
Verb
Contaminate or pollute (something).
Synonyms
noun.     stain - blemish - blot - spot - smirch - smear - smudge
verb.     contaminate - pollute - spoil - corrupt - foul - infect


Err should I be aware of how the word translates elsewhere?!

[erschiessen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perineum

Terminology · Boundaries · Triangles · Additional imagesThere are a number of slang terms commonly used for this area of the human body, such as gooch, chode/choad, grundle, taint...

[Bitcoinorama]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perineum

Terminology · Boundaries · Triangles · Additional imagesThere are a number of slang terms commonly used for this area of the human body, such as gooch, chode/choad, grundle, taint...

Ahhh haha, thought there had to be an alternate meaning...

[DPoS]

I think I'll wait for the abridged version  

Now I know lots of you are going to get your panties in a bunch for me saying this but.....

Could you just post the straight unvarnished answers to the questions. I started reading your post, skipped the Ryanair nonsense then started on the novel that followed, I soon lost the will when I discovered it was another bitcoinorama circle jerk. High on vague assumptions, Low on facts.( Marcus is a perfectionist, living in a James bond lair........really?  )

I appreciate you taking the time out to do this but sending the most Pro/biased/lobbyist for KNCminer on the forum probably wasn't a great idea if we wanted an objective opinion.  Also Bitcoinorams motivations are becoming clearer. He's angling for a job in the bitcoin industry, hopefully with KNC (PR maybe?)so take what he says with a large grain of salt.

Can we please have some facts rather than speculation, assumptions and wishful thinking. Some of us are still considering making this investment and could do with information sans rose tint and varnish.

And before you say it. I should go and do it myself. Believe me I will. I'm looking at purchasing multiple machines and have a couple of friends interested also. I won't be dropping any money utill I've thoroughly checked this out. I was hoping some fundamental questions would have be answered but as of today the are still holes you can drive a bus through.

get on a plane and go yourself or HIRE someone you want to go

you are really hitting the top of the bitching scale

[retro72]

I appreciate you taking the time out to do this but sending the most Pro/biased/lobbyist for KNCminer on the forum probably wasn't a great idea if we wanted an objective opinion. 

Wow, I din't realize that we, as bitcointalk members, SENT people to KNC.
I would have thrown my hat into the ring.

Oh, holdonaminute, I hear mumbling in the background...

You mean bitcoinorama wasn't SENT?
He paid his own way from the U.K. to Stockholm?

In other words, if it is too difficult to understand that the people that visited KnC were not representing us, but themselves, mining bitcoins might be a venture that is best left to folks with a bit higher mental capacity.
Stick with lottery tickets.


The OP stated that the first post was all recollection.

Someone claims to be interested in dropping a small fortune in bitcoin miners, but happen to be too lazy to read opinions of people that have actually visited the people in whose trust is required with said fortune...
Liar or Fool?

-----------------------

Thanks for the prologue, 'orama.

I look forward to the 'real' report.

Yeah whatever buddy. Considering you don't understand the meaning of the word "taint" when used in this context. I'll take nothing you say seriously so stop trying to split hairs and put words in my mouth, it seems comprehension isn't your strong point.

You go ahead and read peoples opinions. I'd rather read facts. I've read plenty of Bitcoinoramas opinions, he has mine, we both know where we stand. I believe he is being overly optimistic, he probably thinks I'm an arse but for all the Jonny come latelys who think I've just had bad things to say about KNC try reading the whole openday thread before running your mouths.

If you had read the whole thread you would probably have learnt nothing you did not already know from what bitcoinarama wrote. He likes them, he liked them from day one. Is this news? No. So forgive me for not wasting my time reading it again. I'll wait for the facts.

Once again Bitcoinorama thanks for taking the time to do this. May I suggest uploading the audio instead of transcribing it? It would save you a lot of time. I could edit it if needs be.

[retro72]

I think I'll wait for the abridged version  

Now I know lots of you are going to get your panties in a bunch for me saying this but.....

Could you just post the straight unvarnished answers to the questions. I started reading your post, skipped the Ryanair nonsense then started on the novel that followed, I soon lost the will when I discovered it was another bitcoinorama circle jerk. High on vague assumptions, Low on facts.( Marcus is a perfectionist, living in a James bond lair........really?  )

I appreciate you taking the time out to do this but sending the most Pro/biased/lobbyist for KNCminer on the forum probably wasn't a great idea if we wanted an objective opinion.  Also Bitcoinorams motivations are becoming clearer. He's angling for a job in the bitcoin industry, hopefully with KNC (PR maybe?)so take what he says with a large grain of salt.

Can we please have some facts rather than speculation, assumptions and wishful thinking. Some of us are still considering making this investment and could do with information sans rose tint and varnish.

And before you say it. I should go and do it myself. Believe me I will. I'm looking at purchasing multiple machines and have a couple of friends interested also. I won't be dropping any money utill I've thoroughly checked this out. I was hoping some fundamental questions would have be answered but as of today the are still holes you can drive a bus through.

get on a plane and go yourself or HIRE someone you want to go

you are really hitting the top of the bitching scale

Like I said panties in a bunch lol

[Bitcoinorama]

Retro, it's cool I know you want to see the answers to your questions. They were asked so you will get them.

I acknowledge I was being optimistic and encouraging prior to visiting them, I don't believe I am now at all, they surpassed even my expectations.  I kissed no one's arse there, and I gave both barrels to Sam. Ask the other attendees we grilled them for 5 hours.

There is a resounding agreement from all that went on this. There hasn't been one negative word. Risks are definitely there, and people need to acknowledge them for what they are, but I can assure you KnC and ORSoC are taking this very seriously and have literally identified whatever point of failure they have control over and created multiple solutions that can be implemented if required.

They are not sourcing parts from any one point of contact. They have multiple live back-ups that will be ensuring a smooth manufacture. If anyone specific part is problematic or the supplier screws up, you will be given solid documentation as evidence, every step of the way.

I didn't however get a chance to wander through the adjoining rooms, the other guys did however on multiple occasions. To give you a better idea, the building you are familiar with the exterior of. ORSoC have an entire floor (the first). It's about 4-5 large rooms. That's the HQ as even though the tech hub is North of Stockholm, having a presence in the city centre is great for business. ORSoC have 3 sites in total, one in each major Swedish city.

I won't upload the transcript as others don't want their voices made public. No one likes to hear the sound of their own voice normally anyway. On top of which there is a load of ambient noise, which makes this harder than I initially imagined. Also, there was a lot discussed 'off the record'. That's not to keep people in the dark, but a more a testament to their openness and honesty as they were happy to answer and share whatever we asked, but I have to respect them as a company that wants to remain competitive. I pushed for their informed opinion on their competitors, they gave it. There were in no way impolite, or negative, they didn't belittle, on the contrary for some they had great appreciation and praise, but these are private thoughts. Sam was certain to state they were 'Sam Cole's' in that instance and not KnC's or ORSoC's, although everyone had their say. They are more than aware their is warranted distrust in the community and a need for clarity and transparency, they gave that, they have promised to continue giving that.

They want a real long-term business in cryptocurrencies, as to be fair do I.

This is the ground floor for an entire blooming industry potentially with as much scope as the Internet itself.

Think about that.

There are many reasons to be optimistic.

Scammers are two a penny, but they are f***ing dumb if they don't see the potential in being credible. I can't say who, but KnC have been approached but scammers asking if they can buy their chips when they are ready as they have so much interest they want to turn legit. Really.

Other things I cannot share or impart are their future plans. In my opinion, that's their property to share. I alluded to aspects, sure, but these guys deserve a fighting chance and dor the record, if they manufacture the ASIC for September they have some very exciting future ideas. Spec for next year. My beleaguering demands for a Litecoin FPGA have not gone unnoticed. Though that's only one aspect I'm prepared to share...

All I can tell you and hopefully you will glean from their own answers as I'm about to sit down now and work through this (despite having a million other things to do day to day), is they appear very competent and knowledgable. They are not promising anything they don't believe they can deliver, having met them, ignoring what I'm imparting upon you, none of the other attendees disagree with this...

[VeeMiner]

I don't believe that they will deliver 28 nm ASIC out of the blue, the design is exceptionally hard to make and it's very expensive. I'm sure their intentions are good and they don't want to scam anyone, I just don't think they will create a chip of this quality.

[Korbman]

I don't believe that they will deliver 28 nm ASIC out of the blue, the desing is exceptionally hard to make and it's very expensive.

..which is why they're converting their current FPGA chips to ASIC..which is cheaper and faster than designing a custom 28nm chip...

[retro72]

All I can tell you and hopefully you will glean from their own answers as I'm about to sit down now and work through this (despite having a million other things to do day to day), is they appear very competent and knowledgable. They are not promising anything they don't believe they can deliver, having met them, ignoring what I'm imparting upon you, none of the other attendees disagree with this...

Thanks again for taking the time to do this. I understand what you're saying about the transcript. I can edit out the chit chat and reduce the background noise but I know what you mean about people not wanting to hear their own voice. I can make them sound like Optimus Prime if that helps
The offers there if you need it.

I'm pretty much sold on the company not being a scam and I'm as sure as I can be, without meeting them myself (next on my to do list) that their hearts in the right place. But I do not know enough about the technicals and that troubles me. I hate having gaps in my knowledge when making decisions. That's why I am keen to see the answers to the questions posed.

I went out to dinner last night and had one too many so forgive my earlier rudeness but I am keen to learn as much as I can. Its a really busy time in my industry and I cannot take the time, especially on a week day to go there myself. I would if I could.

So thanks again for doing this, I'll restrain my impatience and await your upload.

[Bitcoinorama]

I don't believe that they will deliver 28 nm ASIC out of the blue, the desing is exceptionally hard to make and it's very expensive.

..which is why they're converting their current FPGA chips to ASIC..which is cheaper and faster than designing a custom 28nm chip...

Indeed Mars had a very significant purpose for those that didn't fully understand (including myself at the time) why they were intent on building a 6gh/s FPGA.

Now in the interim watch what Marcus and the rest of the team that I neglected to credit can achieve with Mars;

Michael Unnebäck, Yann Vernier and Henrik Nordström.

The HW is really a huge team-effort, Marcus emailed and said I'm irreoneously giving him all the credit

In any case hardware within Mars is about to be pushed to the limit, and done fast without delays. So you're about to see what is capable.

The ASIC final design is complete though, and from what I understand any improvements to the FPGA from here on in, apply to future chip revisions. Though perhaps some aspects of the hardware improvements will be relevant. That we'll need clarity on.

VeeMiner, of course your opinion welcome, and I'm in no position to promise anything, all I can relay is they on record have announced they want to be held accountable for;

A 28nm chip, 175/350 Gh/s miners come September. In a room full of witnesses...

[VeeMiner]

I don't believe that they will deliver 28 nm ASIC out of the blue, the desing is exceptionally hard to make and it's very expensive.

..which is why they're converting their current FPGA chips to ASIC..which is cheaper and faster than designing a custom 28nm chip...

and how exactly does that prove that they are capable of creating a chip of this quality?

[Bitcoinorama]

All I can tell you and hopefully you will glean from their own answers as I'm about to sit down now and work through this (despite having a million other things to do day to day), is they appear very competent and knowledgable. They are not promising anything they don't believe they can deliver, having met them, ignoring what I'm imparting upon you, none of the other attendees disagree with this...

Thanks again for taking the time to do this. I understand what you're saying about the transcript. I can edit out the chit chat and reduce the background noise but I know what you mean about people not wanting to hear their own voice. I can make them sound like Optimus Prime if that helps
The offers there if you need it.

I'm pretty much sold on the company not being a scam and I'm as sure as I can be, without meeting them myself (next on my to do list) that their hearts in the right place. But I do not know enough about the technicals and that troubles me. I hate having gaps in my knowledge when making decisions. That's why I am keen to see the answers to the questions posed.

I went out to dinner last night and had one too many so forgive my earlier rudeness but I am keen to learn as much as I can. Its a really busy time in my industry and I cannot take the time, especially on a week day to go there myself. I would if I could.

So thanks again for doing this, I'll restrain my impatience and await your upload.

Thank-you, you're welcome. I will do my best, that I can promise!

[VeeMiner]

I don't believe that they will deliver 28 nm ASIC out of the blue, the desing is exceptionally hard to make and it's very expensive.

..which is why they're converting their current FPGA chips to ASIC..which is cheaper and faster than designing a custom 28nm chip...

Indeed Mars had a very significant purpose for those that didn't fully understand (including myself at the time) why they were intent on building a 6gh/s FPGA.

Now in the interim watch what Marcus and the rest of the team that I neglected to credit can achieve with Mars;

Michael Unnebäck, Yann Vernier and Henrik Nordström.

The HW is really a huge team-effort, Marcus emailed and said I'm irreoneously giving him all the credit

In any case hardware within Mars is about to be pushed to the limit, and done fast without delays. So you're about to see what is capable.

The ASIC final design is complete though, and from what I understand any improvements to the FPGA from here on in, apply to future chip revisions. Though perhaps some aspects of the hardware improvements will be relevant. That we'll need clarity on.

VeeMiner, of course your opinion welcome, and I'm in no position to promise anything, all I can relay is they on record have announced they want to be held accountable for;

A 28nm chip, 175/350 Gh/s miners come September. In a room full of witnesses...

alright, once I see it actually hashing then I will buy the product...

[erschiessen]

I appreciate you taking the time out to do this but sending the most Pro/biased/lobbyist for KNCminer on the forum probably wasn't a great idea if we wanted an objective opinion. 

Wow, I din't realize that we, as bitcointalk members, SENT people to KNC.
I would have thrown my hat into the ring.

Oh, holdonaminute, I hear mumbling in the background...

You mean bitcoinorama wasn't SENT?
He paid his own way from the U.K. to Stockholm?

In other words, if it is too difficult to understand that the people that visited KnC were not representing us, but themselves, mining bitcoins might be a venture that is best left to folks with a bit higher mental capacity.
Stick with lottery tickets.


The OP stated that the first post was all recollection.

Someone claims to be interested in dropping a small fortune in bitcoin miners, but happen to be too lazy to read opinions of people that have actually visited the people in whose trust is required with said fortune...
Liar or Fool?

-----------------------

Thanks for the prologue, 'orama.

I look forward to the 'real' report.

Yeah whatever buddy. Considering you don't understand the meaning of the word "taint" when used in this context. I'll take nothing you say seriously so stop trying to split hairs and put words in my mouth, it seems comprehension isn't your strong point.

You go ahead and read peoples opinions. I'd rather read facts. I've read plenty of Bitcoinoramas opinions, he has mine, we both know where we stand. I believe he is being overly optimistic, he probably thinks I'm an arse but for all the Jonny come latelys who think I've just had bad things to say about KNC try reading the whole openday thread before running your mouths.

If you had read the whole thread you would probably have learnt nothing you did not already know from what bitcoinarama wrote. He likes them, he liked them from day one. Is this news? No. So forgive me for not wasting my time reading it again. I'll wait for the facts.

Once again Bitcoinorama thanks for taking the time to do this. May I suggest uploading the audio instead of transcribing it? It would save you a lot of time. I could edit it if needs be.

Liar or Fool?

You tell me that I can't understand where you are coming from, but your slothful inability to place enough effort into realizing the OP was only editorial is telling.

I get it, you are a wannabe Puerto Libre, smoothie or Phinneas Gage.
However, those folks are smart, funny and/or relentless in efforts to find truth.
You are zero for three.

[Bitcoinorama]

Guy's please, without breaking out the popcorn, this is where the thread begins to derail.

Let's keep it on point, or at the very least light hearted.

I started a new thread, as the main thread is hard to work through.

I'd rather we had quality, over quantity.

Peace (and hugz)...

[retro72]

Liar or Fool?

You tell me that I can't understand where you are coming from, but your slothful inability to place enough effort into realizing the OP was only editorial is telling.

I get it, you are a wannabe Puerto Libre, smoothie or Phinneas Gage.
However, those folks are smart, funny and/or relentless in efforts to find truth.
You are zero for three.

I rest my case

Anyhooo.......Looking forward to updates

[Coinmining]

First of all: BitcoinOrama thanks very much for your effort and chairing with the community.

As i understand, KnC has the full design of the chip ready. Why did they not release any specs to the visitors?
How many chips are they gonna use in there devices? What is the Hash rate for one chip? What is the power consumpion of one chip?
My understanding is that a 28nm chip can be much more power efficient than the one they are using...

Do you have more info about that?

[dacman61]

alright, once I see it actually hashing then I will buy the product...

By then it'll be too late and you will be behind the curve. Dive in now head first like I have on a Jupiter and Saturn. Take some risk.

[a1phanumrc]

Very nice report.

Thank you for taking the time to go and write it up.

[billotronic]

Nice write up! The shit I just took was epic!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Read page one. Excellent OP. Will read the rest latter.

[KS]

I think I'll wait for the abridged version  

Now I know lots of you are going to get your panties in a bunch for me saying this but.....

Could you just post the straight unvarnished answers to the questions. I started reading your post, skipped the Ryanair nonsense then started on the novel that followed, I soon lost the will when I discovered it was another bitcoinorama circle jerk. High on vague assumptions, Low on facts.( Marcus is a perfectionist, living in a James bond lair........really?  )

I appreciate you taking the time out to do this but sending the most Pro/biased/lobbyist for KNCminer on the forum probably wasn't a great idea if we wanted an objective opinion.  Also Bitcoinorams motivations are becoming clearer. He's angling for a job in the bitcoin industry, hopefully with KNC (PR maybe?)so take what he says with a large grain of salt.

Can we please have some facts rather than speculation, assumptions and wishful thinking. Some of us are still considering making this investment and could do with information sans rose tint and varnish.

And before you say it. I should go and do it myself. Believe me I will. I'm looking at purchasing multiple machines and have a couple of friends interested also. I won't be dropping any money utill I've thoroughly checked this out. I was hoping some fundamental questions would have be answered but as of today the are still holes you can drive a bus through.

Mate, if you read the first handful of lines, I stated I was getting down what I remembered off the top of my head whilst it's there. I also stated I was aware everyone was chomping at the bit for me to publish something sooner, rather than later. I also stated there is hours of recording and I asked every question that was asked of me and more. I asked them as they were written, regardless of whether they had been answered before, so I could give you the unadulterated opinion from the horses mouth. I also stated; 5) This keeps the actual Q&A clean and separate from my own opinion. So you can wait for me to drip feed the questions as I dedicate the time that I can afford (I do have a life), whilst that takes place it only made sense that I jotted down what I perceived to a fresh opinion having just been in attendance myself...

10 lines bro, you could have made it that far...

So, did you buy anything yet?

I see that you aren't reading everything related to KnC, but you always have a grudge against them (only you know why). He already stated that he bought a Jupiter.

quote please?

[rammy2k2]

no pics ?

[benderooo]

Good to hear. Thanks for writing.

[hardpick]

All this makes me feel “warm and fuzzy” may I point out they have the money for about 800 rigs in the bank about $6 million USA $. I hope you are right .They could also disappear into the sunset with a bag full of bitcoins.


Joking

[Bitcoinorama]

Ok, so Q&A (first page of) is typed up below. I dug a bit further than the question specified in a few places.

The pic below has an amusing story. We all know English is not the first language for anyone, but Sam, and he is probably the worst speller of the lot.

So, their tag line:

'Bitcoins make the world go around', is as they realised afterwards; a spelling mistake, and should read 'Bitcoin makes the world go round'.

Alas, too late and they had ordered Mars's boards by that point, all with the spelling error, which I had Sam so proudly pose with. We were all given a pcb board, complete with spelling mistake, as a memento. Who knows? Perhaps one day it itself may have value, if not only historical...



Bare in mind any err, umm, or ahhs are due to Marcus having to speak a foreign language to his own. He wasn't hestitating.

Q&A

–
ChipGeek

Note: These questions come from a guy (me) that has worked in (non bitcoin) ASIC design companies for over 25 years so my focus is from that perspective.

My questions are:

1) Is your ASIC design a hardcopy of the existing FPGA design or is it a semi-custom standard cell design?  (They've said "standard cell" before but other information makes it look like hardcopy.)

Marcus: Ah no it's definitely a standard cell, we've done hardcopies before like this, yes and structured ASIC, yes and gate array ASICs, but this specific design is standard cell ASIC 28nm.   

2) Have you done a (semi-) custom ASIC design of this complexity before?  Have you taken wafers through all of the post-fab production steps: wafer test, bumping, packaging, package test and binning?

Marcus: Thats a lot of questions in one question.

Sam: Have you done an ASIC Before...?

Marcus: Yes we have done many ASICs before.

Sam: (confidently dropping ASICs fabricated on PCBs onto the desk): That one, that one, that one.

Marcus: We have done designs that are much more complex. One with 187 clock domains, that's the...that's the most tough design. I...hope that we will never see such a design again, so yes we have done more complex designs.

Me: What Was that?

Marcus: That was a hardcopy. 40Nm hardcopy.

Me: But what was that for?

Marcus: Ah that's a confidential large customer.

Me: Ok, I thought that might be the case, alright...

Sam: How many clock domains are going to be in our chips?

Marcus: It's basically, well...it's going to be two clock domains, but...but there's a lot of different complexity changes, differences in between as well...

Another forum member interupts: Large scale binning and fabrication...

Marcus: Fabrication and all that, that is done by the fab, so they handle that, that's their business. We provide them with our jailcode, we've written our jailcode in a way that makes the back end design faster, and the fab time faster. There's multiple ways you can do that...if you know what you're doing.

3) Are you doing pre-package wafer test?

Marcus: No.

4) Are you doing post-packaging testing on a real production tester (Teradyne or similar)?

Marcus: No. We...and...and...I..I..I need to say a little bit about why; ah because we will have a self built in test that will automaically test...the...because the chips are so large, so that we can compensate for any losses in the Bitcoin engines. If there are any failing ones then we can compensate for that.

Me: Physically large?

Marcus: The...the die size of the...the?

Me: Yeah

Marcus: The die size will be...very large.

Me: But does that...ummm...

Marcus: That, that means that some of the parts in the ASIC might work and some will not, but we can compensate for that.

Another member: We can compensate for that.

Me: So does that mean you yield less per wafer?

Marcus: So yeah, you will always have a yield problem, and when you increase the die size, the yield problem becomes larger of course.

Me: ok


5) (This question only makes sense if they are NOT doing hardcopy.)  Is your package the same as the FPGA package or a custom one?  If custom, have you done custom packages before?

Marcus: Thats, it's not going to be the same package as the FPGA, as this is going to be a super large package. When we are talking about ASIC packages you have custom ASIC packages, and you have standard ASIC packages, ah, right now we're leaning towards, we have two options. We can use a very very large customised package solution, but we also have an option, so we...we don't have to decide that right now, but very soon we have to pick what kind of package, we should use. But it's, it's with ah, it definitely has to do with power, and heat dissipation. That's what's critical.

Me: So your now, your now going through a different route for heat dissipation, as you're not going down the liquid cooling anymore. Which was the original...

Sam: Datacentres told us not to. Please don't do it, we don't want to host that, we really don't want to see our customers demanding water cooling in our datacentres, blah...blah...blah, so...

Marcus interjects: But it's just the mounting...it's...it's a different mounting scheme, really. We mount that (show's big ass heatsink and fan) we can also mount water cooling

Sam: That's the heatsink (points)

Marcus: So err...we can choose, but for the first productions we'd rather use this ah, this massive active heatsink and over cool it and run the chip a little bit slower to make sure we can, we, we, we don't overheat it.

Me: So, I mean is it fair to assume, then, anything that you would house in future will go through this method, but you might offer a water cooling method if they want to do it at home if they want and have...?

Sam: Basically...basically yeah, at the moment, because we see it going towards industrial centres, rather than into ah single bedrooms like graphics cards are.

Me: But it's only going to be other than the cool factor, the ambient volume and, and being able to overclock it...

Sam: And then the only problem with these things (pointing at Mars fans) is they're not very big. That makes a lot more noise than this will ever make (pointing at huge fan on monster heatsink).



ElGabo

How many miners will you able to produce a day? Not exactly, their realistic perceived capacity + - 10%.

Sam: We can effectively ramp up the production to meet our demands. The numbers we are talking about making 100's effectively, maybe low thousands are umm their not even...their not even bothered by that number. The factories we are using are used to doing this kind of thing, on this scale, large production.

Me: How many daily, then...?

Sam: How many, how many men do we ask them for then...

Marcus interjects: Do we need 10 or 20 guys...? What will be our maximum. They have the space, they have the equipment, everything.

Sam: The factory is not the limiting factor, it's the parts in the door really. As long as we can always get the parts...

Marcus interjects: Yep

Sam: ...we can build the boxes

Marcus: Yep.

Me: Ok, umm...

Marcus: If there would be 50,000 boxes, then it would be a limiting factor. But if it's 1000-2500 boxes, or even 5,000 then it's not a problem.

Me: Ok, so are we going to see...10, 20, 50 a day, what do you reckon...?

Marcus: More

Sam: More

Marcus: Many, many more.

Andreas: More

Sam: Many more.

Me: No, no I just...

Sam: In the hundreds.

Marcus: Exactly

Me: Okay, okay, no, no no...I, I just need to get these guys a figure...ok?

Marcus: Hundreds, in the hundreds.

–

Ok, more tomorrow...night!



EDIT: Jailcode (where mentioned) = RTL Code.

[Bitcoinorama]

[RoadStress]

Ok, so Q&A (first page of) is typed up below. I dug a bit further than the question specified in a few places.

The pic below has an amusing story. We all know English is not the first language for anyone, but Sam, and he is probably the worst speller of the lot.

So, their tag line:

'Bitcoins make the world go around', is as they realised afterwards; a spelling mistake, and should read 'Bitcoin makes the world go round'.

Alas, too late and they had ordered Mar's boards by that point, all with the spelling error, which I had Sam so proudly pose with. We were all given a pcb board, complete with spelling mistake, as a memento. Who knows? Perhaps one day it itself may have value, if not only historical...

Heh. This could replace the "All your base are belong to us" line

[Bitcoinorama]

Ok, so Q&A (first page of) is typed up below. I dug a bit further than the question specified in a few places.

The pic below has an amusing story. We all know English is not the first language for anyone, but Sam, and he is probably the worst speller of the lot.

So, their tag line:

'Bitcoins make the world go around', is as they realised afterwards; a spelling mistake, and should read 'Bitcoin makes the world go round'.

Alas, too late and they had ordered Mar's boards by that point, all with the spelling error, which I had Sam so proudly pose with. We were all given a pcb board, complete with spelling mistake, as a memento. Who knows? Perhaps one day it itself may have value, if not only historical...

Heh. This could replace the "All your base are belong to us" line

I'm not even joking, I sent that suggestion to both Marcus and Sam earlier today;

to Marcus



You can say round or around, it's just a becomes odd to say Bitcoins (plural) make the world go around.

'Bitcoin makes the world go round' would be correct.

'All Your Bitcoins Are Belong To Us' would win instant supergeek credibility and massive cool factor.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/all-your-base-are-belong-to-us

That caused lots of random people to just start posting the message everywhere in real life;

February 27, 2001: “All Your Base Are Belong to Us” makes its debut at #46 on the Lycos 50.
March 2, 2001: The Dutch railways website is hacked to display the phrase, “ALL YOUR TRAINS ARE BELONGTO US.”
2003: The meme quickly crosses into the real world. Universities are bombed with leaflets declaring that all their bases now belong.
April 1, 2003: In Sturgis, Michigan, a group of teenagers placed All Your Base signs all over town, interpreted by unwitting officials as a “borderline terrorist threat”.
2004: North Carolina State University students hack the phrase onto the news ticker of a live television news broadcast, FTW.

It would be awesome to have the boards with 'All Your Bitcoins Are Belong To Us', plus it makes light of the previous spelling error, so it's a humorous progression.

Please do that instead.

Best, A.

[Bitcoinorama]

Would it be; "All your Bitcoin are belong to us", or "All your Bitcoins are belong to us"?

It would be the singular, right? As 'base' was never plural...

[RoadStress]

Very nice very nice!

Edit: I'm 99% sure that the singular is the way to go! "All your Bitcoin are belong to us"

[btceic]

Excellent write up BitcoinOrama, we really appreciate your hard work!

[ChipGeek]

Would it be; "All your Bitcoin are belong to us", or "All your Bitcoins are belong to us"?

It would be the singular, right? As 'base' was never plural...

Bitcoin.   Edit: But possibly could be too nerdy for some.  If they don't know about the "base belong to" thing, they might be paranoid that KnC will steal (some of) their coins.  Or maybe not.

Thank you for your effort and trip report.  It was great to see the answers to my questions.  I look forward to the rest.

[Bitcoinorama]

Would it be; "All your Bitcoin are belong to us", or "All your Bitcoins are belong to us"?

It would be the singular, right? As 'base' was never plural...

Bitcoin.   Edit: But possibly could be too nerdy for some.  If they don't know about the "base belong to" thing, they might be paranoid that KnC will steal (some of) their coins.  Or maybe not.

Thank you for your effort and trip report.  It was great to see the answers to my questions.  I look forward to the rest.

Haha, I thought that intially, but no it's too good an opportunity for lols to miss...it would become a viral meme in it's own right!!

All Your Bitcoin Are Belong To Us...

[22naru]

cheers for storyline.

[Bitcoinorama]

cheers for storyline.

Yah provides the most evidence, but takes the most time, hence the least enthusiasm...!

[KS]

Ok, so Q&A (first page of) is typed up below. I dug a bit further than the question specified in a few places.

The pic below has an amusing story. We all know English is not the first language for anyone, but Sam, and he is probably the worst speller of the lot.

So, their tag line:

'Bitcoins make the world go around', is as they realised afterwards; a spelling mistake, and should read 'Bitcoin makes the world go round'.

Alas, too late and they had ordered Mars's boards by that point, all with the spelling error, which I had Sam so proudly pose with. We were all given a pcb board, complete with spelling mistake, as a memento. Who knows? Perhaps one day it itself may have value, if not only historical...

[snip]

Bare in mind any err, umm, or ahhs are due to Marcus having to speak a foreign language to his own. He wasn't hestitating.

Q&A

–
ChipGeek

Note: These questions come from a guy (me) that has worked in (non bitcoin) ASIC design companies for over 25 years so my focus is from that perspective.

My questions are:

1) Is your ASIC design a hardcopy of the existing FPGA design or is it a semi-custom standard cell design?  (They've said "standard cell" before but other information makes it look like hardcopy.)

Marcus: Ah no it's definitely a standard cell, we've done hardcopies before like this, yes and structured ASIC, yes and gate array ASICs, but this specific design is standard cell ASIC 28nm.   

2) Have you done a (semi-) custom ASIC design of this complexity before?  Have you taken wafers through all of the post-fab production steps: wafer test, bumping, packaging, package test and binning?

Marcus: Thats a lot of questions in one question.

Sam: Have you done an ASIC Before...?

Marcus: Yes we have done many ASICs before.

Sam: (confidently dropping ASICs fabricated on PCBs onto the desk): That one, that one, that one.

Marcus: We have done designs that are much more complex. One with 187 clock domains, that's the...that's the most tough design. I...hope that we will never see such a design again, so yes we have done more complex designs.

Me: What Was that?

Marcus: That was a hardcopy. 40Nm hardcopy.

Me: But what was that for?

Marcus: Ah that's a confidential large customer.

Me: Ok, I thought that might be the case, alright...

Sam: How many clock domains are going to be in our chips?

Marcus: It's basically, well...it's going to be two clock domains, but...but there's a lot of different complexity changes, differences in between as well...

Another forum member interupts: Large scale binning and fabrication...

Marcus: Fabrication and all that, that is done by the fab, so they handle that, that's their business. We provide them with our jailcode, we've written our jailcode in a way that makes the back end design faster, and the fab time faster. There's multiple ways you can do that...if you know what you're doing.

3) Are you doing pre-package wafer test?

Marcus: No.

4) Are you doing post-packaging testing on a real production tester (Teradyne or similar)?

Marcus: No. We...and...and...I..I..I need to say a little bit about why; ah because we will have a self built in test that will automaically test...the...because the chips are so large, so that we can compensate for any losses in the Bitcoin engines. If there are any failing ones then we can compensate for that.

Me: Physically large?

Marcus: The...the die size of the...the?

Me: Yeah

Marcus: The die size will be...very large.

Me: But does that...ummm...

Marcus: That, that means that some of the parts in the ASIC might work and some will not, but we can compensate for that.

Another member: We can compensate for that.

Me: So does that mean you yield less per wafer?

Marcus: So yeah, you will always have a yield problem, and when you increase the die size, the yield problem becomes larger of course.

Me: ok


5) (This question only makes sense if they are NOT doing hardcopy.)  Is your package the same as the FPGA package or a custom one?  If custom, have you done custom packages before?

Marcus: Thats, it's not going to be the same package as the FPGA, as this is going to be a super large package. When we are talking about ASIC packages you have custom ASIC packages, and you have standard ASIC packages, ah, right now we're leaning towards, we have two options. We can use a very very large customised package solution, but we also have an option, so we...we don't have to decide that right now, but very soon we have to pick what kind of package, we should use. But it's, it's with ah, it definitely has to do with power, and heat dissipation. That's what's critical.

Me: So your now, your now going through a different route for heat dissipation, as you're not going down the liquid cooling anymore. Which was the original...

Sam: Datacentres told us not to. Please don't do it, we don't want to host that, we really don't want to see our customers demanding water cooling in our datacentres, blah...blah...blah, so...

Marcus interjects: But it's just the mounting...it's...it's a different mounting scheme, really. We mount that (show's big ass heatsink and fan) we can also mount water cooling

Sam: That's the heatsink (points)

Marcus: So err...we can choose, but for the first productions we'd rather use this ah, this massive active heatsink and over cool it and run the chip a little bit slower to make sure we can, we, we, we don't overheat it.

Me: So, I mean is it fair to assume, then, anything that you would house in future will go through this method, but you might offer a water cooling method if they want to do it at home if they want and have...?

Sam: Basically...basically yeah, at the moment, because we see it going towards industrial centres, rather than into ah single bedrooms like graphics cards are.

Me: But it's only going to be other than the cool factor, the ambient volume and, and being able to overclock it...

Sam: And then the only problem with these things (pointing at Mars fans) is they're not very big. That makes a lot more noise than this will ever make (pointing at huge fan on monster heatsink).

[snip]

ElGabo

How many miners will you able to produce a day? Not exactly, their realistic perceived capacity + - 10%.

Sam: We can effectively ramp up the production to meet our demands. The numbers we are talking about making 100's effectively, maybe low thousands are umm their not even...their not even bothered by that number. The factories we are using are used to doing this kind of thing, on this scale, large production.

Me: How many daily, then...?

Sam: How many, how many men do we ask them for then...

Marcus interjects: Do we need 10 or 20 guys...? What will be our maximum. They have the space, they have the equipment, everything.

Sam: The factory is not the limiting factor, it's the parts in the door really. As long as we can always get the parts...

Marcus interjects: Yep

Sam: ...we can build the boxes

Marcus: Yep.

Me: Ok, umm...

Marcus: If there would be 50,000 boxes, then it would be a limiting factor. But if it's 1000-2500 boxes, or even 5,000 then it's not a problem.

Me: Ok, so are we going to see...10, 20, 50 a day, what do you reckon...?

Marcus: More

Sam: More

Marcus: Many, many more.

Andreas: More

Sam: Many more.

Me: No, no I just...

Sam: In the hundreds.

Marcus: Exactly

Me: Okay, okay, no, no no...I, I just need to get these guys a figure...ok?

Marcus: Hundreds, in the hundreds.

–

Ok, more tomorrow...night!

good read.

and your idea about AYBABTO is totally lame.

[firefop]

So you're saying it's more-or-less OK to throw money at these people ?

I'd take it with a grain of salt. Consider who the OP is. That being said: I'm hopeful that knc turns out to both legit and capable, and as with all asic manufacturers once something ships I'll buy one.

[Bitcoinorama]

good read.

and your idea about AYBABTO is totally lame.

Wha?!...and after I complimented you on your choice of signature the other day...!

 

[J35st3r]

I'll repeat this here ...

My takeaway from that ...

There is no wafer test.

There is no packaged chip test.

They are simply going to solder the chips on the boards and hope any defects are not fatal (ie unusable boards).

Their yield had better be pretty good for that strategy to work.

 (Disclosure, my first job in ASIC industry: test engineer, though things may well have come on a bit in the last 30 years). (Ignore, argument from authority).

PS What is so difficult about the packaged chip test? At the very least measure the supply current to exclude the meltdown risks and run just a few test vectors through them to check the I/O protocol works. They are in way too much of a hurry to get product shipped.

PPS "The chip manufacturer I believe is chosen today. Sam was quite matter of fact about how they aim to hit September,"
... nothing more needs to be said. Read it and weep.

[Bitcoinorama]

So you're saying it's more-or-less OK to throw money at these people ?

I'd take it with a grain of salt. Consider who the OP is. That being said: I'm hopeful that knc turns out to both legit and capable, and as with all asic manufacturers once something ships I'll buy one.

What does that mean?! I'm strictly not telling anyone to do anything, at all. It even says that in the first post in no uncertain terms. I then repeated it in a reply to this very question.

I'm just reporting what I saw, as I saw it, and what was said. I'm also making sure the two are separate from each-other so I do not pollute the latter with any opinion. Ask anyone else who attended of their opinion. It will be positive, but Bitcoin's SP, the hashrate, and the known/unknown competition are all factors that have huge influence...on any potential outcome.

KnC/ORSoC are a real engineering firm. There is still genuine risk. Being engineers they are limiting where possible, but the time factor means they have to take calculated risks themselves. Anyone getting into this 'ASIC race', which is exactly what it is, should understand that.

As for my authenticity I turned up knackered after a long convoluted journey with one of the world's worst airline from London Stanstead at 6am to the furthest Stockholm airport, Skavsta, and a long-ass coach transfer, in person, after limited sleep throughout the weekend prior, verifiable by all those in attendance. If you want, I'll post the boarding passes as well (sans identifiable personal details).

[firefop]

I'll repeat this here ...

My takeaway from that ...

There is no wafer test.

There is no packaged chip test.

They are simply going to solder the chips on the boards and hope any defects are not fatal (ie unusable boards).

Their yield had better be pretty good for that strategy to work.

 (Disclosure, my first job in ASIC industry: test engineer, though things may well have come on a bit in the last 30 years). (Ignore, argument from authority).

PS What is so difficult about the packaged chip test? At the very least measure the supply current to exclude the meltdown risks and run just a few test vectors through them to check the I/O protocol works. They are in way too much of a hurry to get product shipped.

PPS "The chip manufacturer I believe is chosen today. Sam was quite matter of fact about how they aim to hit September,"
... nothing more needs to be said. Read it and weep.

Granted... at least voltage tests and i/o tests seem simple enough...  but on the other hand, if they're capable of excluding defective engines through an automated process onboard - then there's really little reason to pre-test anything.

[firefop]

So you're saying it's more-or-less OK to throw money at these people ?

I'd take it with a grain of salt. Consider who the OP is. That being said: I'm hopeful that knc turns out to both legit and capable, and as with all asic manufacturers once something ships I'll buy one.

What does that mean?! I'm strictly not telling anyone to do anything, at all. It even says that in the first post in no uncertain terms. I then repeated it in a reply to this very question.

I'm just reporting what I saw, as I saw it, and what was said. I'm also making sure the two are separate from each-other so I do not pollute the latter with any opinion. Ask anyone else who attended of their opinion. It will be positive, but Bitcoin's SP, the hashrate, and the known/unknown competition are all factors that have huge influence...on any potential outcome.

KnC/ORSoC are a real engineering firm. There is still genuine risk. Being engineers they are limiting where possible, but the time factor means they have to take calculated risks themselves. Anyone getting into this 'ASIC race', which is exactly what it is, should understand that.

As for my authenticity I turned up knackered after a long convoluted journey with one of the world's worst airline at 6am to the furthest Stockholm airport, and a long-ass coach transfer, in person, after limited sleep throughout the weekend prior, verifiable by all those in attendance. If you want, I'll post the boarding passes as well (sans identifiable personal details).

I believe you where there... but everything else aside - it could still be a con of some sort. If it is, it's best presented one in bitcoin history. If it's not, I'll be buying right along with everyone else once we see product in the wild.

[KS]

good read.

and your idea about AYBABTO is totally lame.

Wha?!...and after I complimented you on your choice of signature the other day...!

 

That was totally 'cause *I* have good taste

[Bitcoinorama]

good read.

and your idea about AYBABTO is totally la
me.

Wha?!...and after I complimented you on your choice of signature the other day...!

 

That was totally 'cause *I* have good taste

In this instance we have an agreement:

http://www.planettribes.com/allyourbase/index.shtml

[J35st3r]

Granted... at least voltage tests and i/o tests seem simple enough...  but on the other hand, if they're capable of excluding defective engines through an automated process onboard - then there's really little reason to pre-test anything.

Well, there is the matter of an expensive test socket/interface to be designed and procured. And did you note they have not even selected their foundry yet. In another post I noted the over-optimism of ASIC customers (ie KNCMiner in this context, as the customer of the foundry), that was 20 years ago. Seems nothing has changed. There will be tears.

PS I edited for clarity, hence the difference from firefop's quote below.

[firefop]

Granted... at least voltage tests and i/o tests seem simple enough...  but on the other hand, if they're capable of excluding defective engines through an automated process onboard - then there's really little reason to pre-test anything.

Well, there is the mater of an expensive test socket/interface to be designed and procured. And did you note they have not even selected their foundry yet. In another post I noted the over-optimism of ASIC customers (ie KNCMiner in this context vs foundries), that was 20 years ago. Seems nothing has changed. There will be tears.

I'm inclined to agree... but you know every once in awhile someone wins 64btc playing satoshidice. So I guess we'll just wait and see.

[Bitcoinorama]

Granted... at least voltage tests and i/o tests seem simple enough...  but on the other hand, if they're capable of excluding defective engines through an automated process onboard - then there's really little reason to pre-test anything.

Well, there is the mater of an expensive test socket/interface to be designed and procured. And did you note they have not even selected their foundry yet. In another post I noted the over-optimism of ASIC customers (ie KNCMiner in this context vs foundries), that was 20 years ago. Seems nothing has changed. There will be tears.

I believe they have. I think this is mentioned later in the audio.

There are two competing foundries, we were told who they were, both have the final design, both are bidding for the gig. Sam mentioned something of huge interest here in front of us. So i'm not the only one who heard this, but I'm not sure I can repeat it; so I won't, but it involves meeting the September deadline.

The decision was to made on Tuesday/Wednesday to place the order with the chosen foundry I believe was mentioned. I attended Monday.

I'm also only through the first page of questions.

[KS]

so, did you pay for a jupiter/saturn in the end? you don't seem to want to answer the question publicly.

I'll keep on riding you for that, not that I particularly enjoy it, if you keep on painting KNC in an especially good way yet don't invest yourself.

[Bitcoinorama]

so, did you pay for a jupiter/saturn in the end? you don't seem to want to answer the question publicly.

I'll keep on riding you for that, not that I particularly enjoy it, if you keep on painting KNC in an especially good way yet don't invest yourself.

Yes, I answered that in the first post on this thread!

[suryc]

Is anyone clear on what the physical size of these going to be?
There site says a Jupiter is "160 x 160 x 200", but doesn't specify units. If that is cm, which I would assume it is, that is really massive.

[J35st3r]

There are two competing foundries, we were told who they were, both have the final design, both are bidding for the gig. Sam mentioned something of huge interest here in front of us. So i'm not the only one who heard this, but I'm not sure I can repeat it; so I won't, but it involves meeting the September deadline.

Yes, but the point I am making is that this s very late in the game to be selecting your foundry. OK, there has been a lot of progress since I left the industry 20 years back, but this is a very tight schecdule. Perhaps I should quote again the article linked by KS in the other thread  http://www.edn.com/design/systems-design/4319891/The-economics-of-structured-and-standard-cell-ASIC-designs (2006 vintage but still relevant).

I wish some of the current ASIC design gurus would comment on this (several very informed guys post on these threads).

[Bitcoinorama]

There are two competing foundries, we were told who they were, both have the final design, both are bidding for the gig. Sam mentioned something of huge interest here in front of us. So i'm not the only one who heard this, but I'm not sure I can repeat it; so I won't, but it involves meeting the September deadline.

Yes, but the point I am making is that this s very late in the game to be selecting your foundry. OK, there has been a lot of progress since I left the industry 20 years back, but this is a very tight schecdule. Perhaps I should quote again the article linked by KS in the other thread  http://www.edn.com/design/systems-design/4319891/The-economics-of-structured-and-standard-cell-ASIC-designs (2006 vintage but still relevant).

I wish some of the current ASIC design gurus would comment on this (several very informed guys post on these threads).

But ORSoC have a strong relationship with both foundries, it's not like they are selecting people they haven't worked with. They are negotiating delivery for Sept.

They were to resell the FPGAs in Mars at an amazing price because of a direct relationship with ALTERA. The deal was though the chips could not be harvested and resold under the agreement. Customers could in theory if they could release the chips from the board, but that's why KnC couldn't offer a trade-in deal with the FPGAs for their scrypt miners to be made at a later date.

[J35st3r]

But ORSoC have a strong relationship with both foundries, it's not like they are selecting people they haven't worked with. They are negotiating delivery for Sept.

Yeah, good point. My experience was with new entrants with wide-eyed expectations. I'm still rather worried about the lack of a test strategy. But in my day yields of 30-60% were common, if they can manage 95% today, them maybe the build it and pray approach will work (it certainly seems to be what BFL used). Read the artice I linked. It shows the sort of timescales the professionals work to.

[KS]

so, did you pay for a jupiter/saturn in the end? you don't seem to want to answer the question publicly.

I'll keep on riding you for that, not that I particularly enjoy it, if you keep on painting KNC in an especially good way yet don't invest yourself.

Yes, I answered that in the first post on this thread!

Yeah, but "paid for" is the keyword I'm looking for. You already had a Jupiter (or 2) and a Saturn on order before.

[KS]

but that's why KnC couldn't offer a trade-in deal with the FPGAs for their scrypt miners to be made at a later date.

So you're saying they scrapped the Mars because of a trade-in deal they couldn't do for a non-existing miner??

I'm pulling your leg, but there is still a lot of BS coming from your source. Either you're drunk in the coolaid or you're genuinely deaf to it.

[Syke]

Marcus: The die size will be...very large.

That sounds like trouble waiting to happen.

[DPoS]

how about:

I drink your bitshake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKQ3LXHKB34


or combine them

All your bitshake are belong to I  (or  us)

[rizzman]

Would it be; "All your Bitcoin are belong to us", or "All your Bitcoins are belong to us"?

It would be the singular, right? As 'base' was never plural...

Haha! I would gladly pay an extra $25 bucks for that... would be awesome!

[erschiessen]

how about:

I drink your bitshake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKQ3LXHKB34


or combine them

All your bitshake are belong to I  (or  us)

There's no cow on the ice

[erschiessen]

Good work thus far, bitcoinorama

OTHER ATTENDEES:

Please feel free to chime in, more voices are needed in the choir!

[RoadStress]

Marcus: The die size will be...very large.

That sounds like trouble waiting to happen.

Why is that?

[Syke]

Marcus: The die size will be...very large.

That sounds like trouble waiting to happen.

Why is that?

So many things can go wrong. Timing signals/voltage drops across the whole die, low wafer yields, too much heat, etc.

[Bitcoinorama]

Is anyone clear on what the physical size of these going to be?
There site says a Jupiter is "160 x 160 x 200", but doesn't specify units. If that is cm, which I would assume it is, that is really massive.

To me Mars was about 16cm by 16cm, by 20cm, That pcb board they gave me fits a space the exact same dimensions as an iPad screen area.

I know this as I'm positioning it over one now.

[Trongersoll]

i heard that the units were Meters.

[ElGabo]

Thanks a lot 'orama! 

[dan99]

with competitors troll making their rounds including those Asic wannabe or so call asic experts criticizing and expressing their own opinions etc.. If you are that good why don't you design your own Asic or attend Kncminer open day and you can shoot your questions to Sam or Marcus ... If  those Avalon kids would have started today  I am sure you will also be making your negative rounds don't believing they will produce the Asics, won't you? But hey, those college kids make it.

[Bitcoinorama]

Guy's, just been pinged an email advising 'jailcode' (where mentioned) = RTL code.

http://www.edaboard.com/thread252148.html

http://www.asic-world.com/verilog/intro1.html#Register-Transfer_Level

http://images.elektroda.net/70_1337448255.png

[idee2013]

From report:

The Saturn and Jupiter Chips unsurprisingly Marcus is not happy with. The final design has been tested and again any risk to stability of the chip minimised. It has to work from the outset, a revision of the mask would cost an additional three months lead. Suffice to say Marcus could do so much more to it and intends to. There will be further revisions to the chip in future as he has a lot left to play with in a 28nm ASIC. This is no where near the most complicated ASIC chip he has designed.

From KNC homepage

An additional gain of 30% more hashing when the advanced algorithms provided by ORSoC are applied.

Does that mean, that the first miners will not get the 30% additional gain? Does that sentence say, that only futher versions will get the 30% ?

Or is it for example with a firmware upgrade for the first shipped possible, too? ( are the 30% only possible in the asic chip design?)

[Bitcoinorama]

From report:

The Saturn and Jupiter Chips unsurprisingly Marcus is not happy with. The final design has been tested and again any risk to stability of the chip minimised. It has to work from the outset, a revision of the mask would cost an additional three months lead. Suffice to say Marcus could do so much more to it and intends to. There will be further revisions to the chip in future as he has a lot left to play with in a 28nm ASIC. This is no where near the most complicated ASIC chip he has designed.

From KNC homepage

An additional gain of 30% more hashing when the advanced algorithms provided by ORSoC are applied.

Does that mean, that the first miners will not get the 30% additional gain? Does that sentence say, that only futher versions will get the 30% ?

Or is it for example with a firmware upgrade for the first shipped possible, too? ( are the 30% only possible in the asic chip design?)

That will be answered in the next bit; Retro 72's Q&A, which I'm now soo happy I decided to pry further into detail. Cannot wait to start/stop every fifteen seconds transcribing. Joy!

[idee2013]

ah...ok.....did not know that it will be answered in the Q&A ..sorry

[erschiessen]

idee,

I take it to mean firmware, but since bitcoinorama can answer that with conversations with KnC, we shall all know.
_{(my bet is that KnC intentionally lowered the specs to ensure their product is solid)}

[Bitcoinorama]

idee,

I take it to mean firmware, but since bitcoinorama can answer that with conversations with KnC, we shall all know.
_{(my bet is that KnC intentionally lowered the specs to ensure their product is solid)}

Not that they will admit that, but I think you've nailed it there Ers.

Over delivery is a lot easier, if you concentrate on under-promising in the first place!

[johnyj]

Optimization means higher gate density, but then you have higher power supply and cooling requirement, components easier to fail. I would prefer many low temp low power devices instead of a single high power high temp device

BFL's 65 nm chip is 4GH per chip, kncminer claim a 23nm chip with 7.3GH per chip, double the efficiency, reasonable and still quite high energy density

[retro72]

Thanks for the transcript. Very informative. Looking forward to reading the rest.

[erschiessen]

Optimization means higher gate density, but then you have higher power supply and cooling requirement, components easier to fail. I would prefer many low temp low power devices instead of a single high power high temp device

BFL's 65 nm chip is 4GH per chip, kncminer claim a 23nm chip with 7.3GH per chip, double the efficiency, reasonable and still quite high energy density

Been a long time since I worked in ICs, but if their chip size is quite large, as reported to be, it could mean that the size of the internal conductors are larger, hence a lowering of I²R losses.

Yes?
No?

[mo_mo]

thank you OP, I wish I could go to the open house. Great article hope to see more progress and updates from KNC

[ChipGeek]

Marcus: The die size will be...very large.

That sounds like trouble waiting to happen.

I agree.  This plus the lack of chip testing before mounting to the boards are the two things that concern me the most.  Here's why: yield.  There are two primary sources of yield loss (bad chips).

1) Process problems.  Ex: Too much etching of metal (opens), not enough etching of metal (shorts), and similar issues with other layers (transistors and layer interconnects).  These are usually noticed and/or fixed by the fab because they add test structures in between the chips in the scribe lanes and/or in unused areas of the chips.  During each step of the wafer production, they test these test structures to make sure that that particular step was done right.  If done wrong, the wafers are scrapped or sometimes the error can be corrected.  However, there can be a uniformity issue where the die on one part of the wafer are good, while all the die in another area are bad.

2) Random defects - figuratively (sometimes literally) "specks of dust" on the wafers.  Think of these this way.  Imagine putting a piece of graph paper on the wall (representing the wafer and the small squares are the individual die) and throwing darts at it randomly.  Lets say you throw 50 darts and the hole left by each dart represents a random defect.  If the graph paper has small squares (1000 per sheet of paper), then you have 50 bad die, 950 good die for 95% yield of good die.  Now imagine the squares (die) are 10x bigger so there are only 100 die per wafer.  Now 50 defects gives 50 bad die and 50 good ones for 50% yield.  Thus, larger die size impacts yield negatively.  Realize the numbers here were chosen for simplicity but the effect is VERY real. 

Small die --> high yields --> no chip testing --> probably good.
Large die --> low yields --> no chip testing --> not a good idea in my opinion.

ORSoC is relying on the concept of using a large number of cores per chip and turning off the bad ones.  The idea is that you can turn a bad die back into a good one.  This is generally an acceptable strategy and one that BFL is successfully using.  Depending on ORSoc's actual die size, the process yields, and the specific method of disabling cores, they might pull it off.  However as someone else mentioned in this thread, there are sometimes chips that are COMPLETELY dead - just a shorted blob of metal and completely worthless unless you want something to blow up power supplies.    Those really should be screened out at a minimum.  And if you're doing that, you might as well do a full chip test with binning.

Note: I'm not condemning the strategy that ORSoc is using.  It might work.  I would be a whole lot more comfortable if they were doing chip testing.

Disclaimer: I am a BFL customer.  I have not ordered any KnC product yet but I am seriously considering it.  If I had the cash on hand I might have already ordered.  Perhaps BTC I mine with my BFL hardware will go to KnC.

[daggeteo]

Good work thus far, bitcoinorama

OTHER ATTENDEES:

Please feel free to chime in, more voices are needed in the choir!

I've been quiet thus far because the accounts that are given by Bitcoinorama (aswell as keyzersoze, who also attended) are accurate. Bitcoinorama was very thorough with his questions and has been very thorough with the report of said questions.

For me nothing changed with the Monday open day!

/D

[mandelmus]

I thought I'd go ahead and load up on some Jupiters but the site says there's only 1652 left.  Anyone know how many have sold so far?  Genesis block said they already pre-sold 890 orders a few days ago -- at over 160 TH/s.  If they can deliver on all those orders, will that much processing power have any affect on the value of Bitcoins, or just on the mining profitability?

http://i43.tinypic.com/2qnmqs5.jpg

[KS]

I thought I'd go ahead and load up on some Jupiters but the site says there's only 1652 left.  Anyone know how many have sold so far?  Genesis block said they already pre-sold 890 orders a few days ago -- at over 160 TH/s.  If they can deliver on all those orders, will that much processing power have any affect on the value of Bitcoins, or just on the mining profitability?

They fixed it, I ordered more than 10.000 Saturns and 4.000 Jupiters. But then my CC was rejected :p

I actually put more than a million in the shopping cart (then got bored when it didn't stop), no limit there. However, after logging in and opening the shopping cart, it showed max 1652 Jupiters and 1864 Saturns were available.

My crystall ball says they only put 2000 or 2500 in "stock".

So that's 122T in Jupiters (348 sold) and 24T in Saturns (136 sold) with stock = 2000 and

297T in Jupiters (848 sold) and 111T in Saturns (636 sold) with stock= 2500.

My take is on 2000 as the "natural" mix between high end and low end products would be closer to the 348/136 distribution than the 848/636 one. But this is total speculation (I guess we can expect a lot of the wire transfer orders were fake).

[Rampion]

Why is everybody so happy that they can produce and deliver so many units per day?

Don't you realize this is a race, and the best way to maximize ROI for customers is to sell batches, as Avalon did?

Just think: if KnC sells 1,500 Jupiters and delivers them quickly, when added to the rest of the network each one will probably produce aprox. 1BTC or less per day, and ROI will be unlikely. If they sell +3,000 Jupiters (which seems likely they will do), when they arrive each Jupiter will produce 0,5BTC per day or less, and ROI won't never happen.

Honestly, it's pretty scary to see them pushing out those numbers. Each additional Jupiter they sell removes value from the previous one. Kinda the same problem we thought BFL would have, but the reality ended up being that they are so slow delivering that actually their very first customers may break/even with their units despite the delays.

[Bagpipe]

Marcus: We have done designs that are much more complex. One with 187 clock domains, that's the...that's the most tough design. I...hope that we will never see such a design again, so yes we have done more complex designs.

Me: What Was that?

Marcus: That was a hardcopy. 40Nm hardcopy.

Me: But what was that for?

Marcus: Ah that's a confidential large customer.

Is there any way I could ask them confidentially a question about that design? I know one that might just match that description of a previous -- likely a 65nm design -- that would benefit of being shrunk to 40nm. If it is really so, it would drastically change my view on the whole OrSoc, and I would have to say that they are grossly under-appreciated. I meant, you have a good relationship with them and this question really burns my mind.

And PLEASE, it is 40 nm as in nano-metres, not Newton-metres, oh my!!!!

[idee2013]

Why is everybody so happy that they can produce and deliver so many units per day?

Don't you realize this is a race, and the best way to maximize ROI for customers is to sell batches, as Avalon did?

Just think: if KnC sells 1,500 Jupiters and delivers them quickly, when added to the rest of the network each one will probably produce aprox. 1BTC or less per day, and ROI will be unlikely. If they sell +3,000 Jupiters (which seems likely they will do), when they arrive each Jupiter will produce 0,5BTC per day or less, and ROI won't never happen.

Honestly, it's pretty scary to see them pushing out those numbers. Each additional Jupiter they sell removes value from the previous one. Kinda the same problem we thought BFL would have, but the reality ended up being that they are so slow delivering that actually their very first customers may break/even with their units despite the delays.

and what is avalon doing?....they sale millions of avalon chips....it is the same thing

BFL sells chips, too. But only 100,000 https://products.butterflylabs.com/65nm-asic-bitcoin-mining-chip.html

[KS]

and what is avalon doing?....they sale millions hundreds of thousand of avalon chips....it is the same thing

FTFY

[Bitcoinorama]

Marcus: We have done designs that are much more complex. One with 187 clock domains, that's the...that's the most tough design. I...hope that we will never see such a design again, so yes we have done more complex designs.

Me: What Was that?

Marcus: That was a hardcopy. 40Nm hardcopy.

Me: But what was that for?

Marcus: Ah that's a confidential large customer.

Is there any way I could ask them confidentially a question about that design? I know one that might just match that description of a previous -- likely a 65nm design -- that would benefit of being shrunk to 40nm. If it is really so, it would drastically change my view on the whole OrSoc, and I would have to say that they are grossly under-appreciated. I meant, you have a good relationship with them and this question really burns my mind.

And PLEASE, it is 40 nm as in nano-metres, not Newton-metres, oh my!!!!

Crikey, I think I've just been schooled by George Takei!!...

But you are right, I was used to the capital G in giga hash so accidentally gave nano the Newton N!

Feel free to email Rampion, if it doesn't jeapordise IP, they will answer straight.

I'm having a mare trying to upload video by the way. I can watch it back on the iPhone, fine. I can copy it from the iPhone, fine. The main 5 min file is around 900 megs as a .Mov, I have another of arounf 350 megs. Both my Mac and YouTube claim they don't recognise the file format!?

I have to goto work soon, but any ideas? Presumably I need to convert, is there a native format YouTube works with?? I'm surprised the Mac won't play it, .mov is apple after all. iPhone is the newer of the two though...

[KS]

Marcus: We have done designs that are much more complex. One with 187 clock domains, that's the...that's the most tough design. I...hope that we will never see such a design again, so yes we have done more complex designs.

Me: What Was that?

Marcus: That was a hardcopy. 40Nm hardcopy.

Me: But what was that for?

Marcus: Ah that's a confidential large customer.

Is there any way I could ask them confidentially a question about that design? I know one that might just match that description of a previous -- likely a 65nm design -- that would benefit of being shrunk to 40nm. If it is really so, it would drastically change my view on the whole OrSoc, and I would have to say that they are grossly under-appreciated. I meant, you have a good relationship with them and this question really burns my mind.

And PLEASE, it is 40 nm as in nano-metres, not Newton-metres, oh my!!!!

Crikey, I think I've just been schooled by George Takei!!...

But you are right, I was used to the capital G in giga hash so accidentally gave nano the Newton N!

Feel free to email Rampion, if it doesn't jeapordise IP, they will answer straight.

I'm having a mare trying to upload video by the way. I can watch it back on the iPhone, fine. I can copy it from the iPhone, fine. The main 5 min file is around 900 megs as a .Mov, I have another of arounf 350 megs. Both my Mac and YouTube claim they don't recognise the file format!?

I have to goto work soon, but any ideas? Presumably I need to convert, is there a native format YouTube works with?? I'm surprised the Mac won't play it, .mov is apple after all. iPhone is the newer of the two though...

convert to flash (flv)

[idee2013]

+1

FLV should be the right format for such i big file

[Bitcoinorama]

Ok, so I think it was a conflict between the formatting of the USB thumb drive not accepting the video files. The Mac is a Macbook Air and there just isn't enough space for me to play with 1.5 gigs of video currently.

So I've taken the iPhone to another PC (not mine) and the files play fine. They uploaded to YouTube as .MOV fine.

Daggeteo wanted to check I hadn't recorded anything sensitive from his pool data, so he gets first view. Personally I see nothing amiss. I almost stumble in on him typing his password which was amusing, aside from that there isn't an issue. He's briefly on screen for a millisecond, so his choice...nothing distressing or embarrassing.

Getting audio files off the iPhone is another headache entirely.

So lucky Daggeteo recorded audio separately. Mine is clearer, but anything over 8 minutes I cannot email. In iTunes I can see two out of the three voice memo in the 'on my iPhone' tab, click sync voice mails, nothing. Apprehensive to try pairing this with another computer as everyone I know has experienced total loss of all music and playlists doing this. Not risking loosing the audio. Incidentally the file that doesn't show on the computer, all though present on my iPhone, doesn't play on my iPhone. It was about 40 minutes long and it was the recording that stopped unannounced during the open-day. The other two files play uninterrupted. So again, lucky Daggeteo had a recording device present! There are additional bits on mine Daggeteo's doesn't have, but I need to have my iPhone plugged into a paired device to transcript. Joy...

This faffing around has cost me time, and is the reason there's been some delay. I have to head out to work now, if Daggeteo can give me a heads up by tomorrow. I shall share the video...

For what it's worth Apple has always been problematic with sharing large recordings made on iOS devices, they really need to address this!

On the plus side...it's in 1080p!!

[mandelmus]

Just think: if KnC sells 1,500 Jupiters and delivers them quickly, when added to the rest of the network each one will probably produce aprox. 1BTC or less per day, and ROI will be unlikely. If they sell +3,000 Jupiters (which seems likely they will do), when they arrive each Jupiter will produce 0,5BTC per day or less, and ROI won't never happen.

1/2 a BTC per day?!  That's what worries me, especially for those of us mining without Jupiters and Saturns.

[Rampion]

Just think: if KnC sells 1,500 Jupiters and delivers them quickly, when added to the rest of the network each one will probably produce aprox. 1BTC or less per day, and ROI will be unlikely. If they sell +3,000 Jupiters (which seems likely they will do), when they arrive each Jupiter will produce 0,5BTC per day or less, and ROI won't never happen.

1/2 a BTC per day?!  That's what worries me, especially for those of us mining without Jupiters and Saturns.

ASIC mining is a very particular beast with very special characteristics. If you want your customers to achieve ROI, you cannot just flood the network as quick as possible. That's why the "first 500 batch get their unit first" approach makes some sense, while the "we can push hundreds of units daily and everybody will receive them almost at the same time" is a kinda worring approach from a preorder customer point of view.

I expect a 2011-like situation, when we had a "mining bubble" that deflated because it wasn't profitable to mine any more. I see the very same situation approaching very fast, the absolute winners have been the ASICminer shareholders and Avalon batch #1 customers, batch #2 will ROI and #3 will breakeven, and I'm afraid that the rest (including BFL customers) will be the "bagholders".

I may be mistaken, but I would appreciate some figures from KnC regarding how many THs they plan to sell, and how fast. As I said earlier this is a very "special" business, if they sell too many units too fast their customers won't achieve ROI unless they hold their mined coins till the exchange rate goes x10, and in that case their profit would have been bigger if they just bought BTC instead of buying KnC miners.

Making closed and limited batches is the best way to try to protect your customers investment in this business.

[Bagpipe]

flv is a container, not a codec.
.mov is also a container only and inside it can be mjpeg (motion jpeg a series of photos) or some other codec.

There is a utility on sourceforge named mov2mpeg or something like that...
no, I believe it had the words mov, 2, mp4 in the name... I can not tell you as it is on a crashed computer.


As for the KnC miner numbers, they totally, utterly had a plan of flooding the market with something that may be a collective 30% saturation. The numbers sold by the preorders were far less than what they expected to sell and the expenses for this project will run into 4 to 6 million USD when we count their engineering work too. So selling KnC miners at least to a break-even point and NOT ruining the BTC network seems like an impossible task.

[mandelmus]

As for the KnC miner numbers, they totally, utterly had a plan of flooding the market with something that may be a collective 30% saturation. The numbers sold by the preorders were far less than what they expected to sell ...

How do you know it was far less than they expected?

... and the expenses for this project will run into 4 to 6 million USD when we count their engineering work too.

I'm sure they have surpassed 7 million USD by this point.  Does anyone have the actual sales numbers yet?

So selling KnC miners at least to a break-even point and NOT ruining the BTC network seems like an impossible task.

So, you are thinking that KnC miners will ruin the BTC network? 

There are so many factors to consider:  Will KnC be able to deliver by September?  Who else will flood the market with ASICs before KnC gets their products delivered?  Where will the exchange-to-BTC rate be in September ... what if the exchange rate drops back down to 5 USD per BTC?  How will this flood of ASICs affect us little guys who are mining for only pennies a day?

On the other hand, could this be a really good thing for the Bitcoin economy?  Will the Bitcoin economy become stronger, more effective, efficient and resilient, with this increased flooding of ASICs on the market? 

[johnyj]

Just think: if KnC sells 1,500 Jupiters and delivers them quickly, when added to the rest of the network each one will probably produce aprox. 1BTC or less per day, and ROI will be unlikely. If they sell +3,000 Jupiters (which seems likely they will do), when they arrive each Jupiter will produce 0,5BTC per day or less, and ROI won't never happen.

1/2 a BTC per day?!  That's what worries me, especially for those of us mining without Jupiters and Saturns.

ASIC mining is a very particular beast with very special characteristics. If you want your customers to achieve ROI, you cannot just flood the network as quick as possible. That's why the "first 500 batch get their unit first" approach makes some sense, while the "we can push hundreds of units daily and everybody will receive them almost at the same time" is a kinda worring approach from a preorder customer point of view.

I expect a 2011-like situation, when we had a "mining bubble" that deflated because it wasn't profitable to mine any more. I see the very same situation approaching very fast, the absolute winners have been the ASICminer shareholders and Avalon batch #1 customers, batch #2 will ROI and #3 will breakeven, and I'm afraid that the rest (including BFL customers) will be the "bagholders".

I may be mistaken, but I would appreciate some figures from KnC regarding how many THs they plan to sell, and how fast. As I said earlier this is a very "special" business, if they sell too many units too fast their customers won't achieve ROI unless they hold their mined coins till the exchange rate goes x10, and in that case their profit would have been bigger if they just bought BTC instead of buying KnC miners.

Making closed and limited batches is the best way to try to protect your customers investment in this business.

Even current ASIC manufacturers make some organization like OPEC, due to there are hidden players developing ASICs mining for themselves, that does not work either. One of the most important mission of ASIC miner manufacturers is to promote the bitcoin-only sale to support the price of bitcoin (hence their own income)

[rizzman]

Even current ASIC manufacturers make some organization like OPEC, due to there are hidden players developing ASICs mining for themselves, that does not work either. One of the most important mission of ASIC miner manufacturers is to promote the bitcoin-only sale to support the price of bitcoin (hence their own income)

This is simply not true... and even if it was, it would be disastrous to bitcoin long term considering all you have at that point is an exclusive club where the only persons who have access to the tools of the trade are those that had got into the mining market at ground level and have a hoard of bitcoin. Meanwhile these companies producing their mining products are reliant on third-party vendors to exchange their bitcoin to pay the vendors that only accept local currency for the raw material needed to make the finished products. This is NOT good for business.

This practice is just not tenable and you can see that in the moves that most of the major ASIC manufacturers are making towards including PayPal's shitty service into their payment options (ie. BFL, Terrahash, KNCMiner) because they know that people that weren't in the game before are already scared as it is moving into a highly volatile new currency let alone, the promise of generating it, and will need a comfortable entry point into the market in order to have any chance of growth.

Sure you can counter argue the use of Mt.Gox and other exchanges are there to serve as intermediaries but the reality is people are lazy, scared, and resistant to change... And the easier you make for them to enter into the market, the more sustainable the growth and confidence in it will be long term. The companies know/are learning this and is one of the best chances that Bitcoin has to succeed.

[mandelmus]

... Meanwhile these companies producing their mining products are reliant on third-party vendors to exchange their bitcoin to pay the vendors that only accept local currency for the raw material needed to make the finished products. ...

Ya, that's a really good point. 

All these ASIC developers/manufacturers are asking for and accepting payment in Bitcoin, but they still have to convert those bitcoins into fiat currency to pay their vendors.  Theoretically, if everyone paid KnCMiner in Bitcoins -- approximately $7 million so far -- shouldn't we start seeing some pretty large BTC sell orders on MtGox soon?

[Korbman]

Theoretically, if everyone paid KnCMiner in Bitcoins -- approximately $7 million so far -- shouldn't we start seeing some pretty large BTC sell orders on MtGox soon?

ASIC manufacturers, namely BFL and KnC (though also Avalon at one point), all utilized BitPay (or similar service) for Bitcoin based transactions. What this means is that those companies never saw/received a coin...it was instantly converted to USD (or whatever other currency) at the market rate at the time of purchase.
Bitcoins --> BitPay --> converted to cash --> Manufacturer is paid (and BitPay takes a cut).

[hardpick]

Why is everybody so happy that they can produce and deliver so many units per day?

Don't you realize this is a race, and the best way to maximize ROI for customers is to sell batches, as Avalon did?

Just think: if KnC sells 1,500 Jupiters and delivers them quickly, when added to the rest of the network each one will probably produce aprox. 1BTC or less per day, and ROI will be unlikely. If they sell +3,000 Jupiters (which seems likely they will do), when they arrive each Jupiter will produce 0,5BTC per day or less, and ROI won't never happen.

Honestly, it's pretty scary to see them pushing out those numbers. Each additional Jupiter they sell removes value from the previous one. Kinda the same problem we thought BFL would have, but the reality ended up being that they are so slow delivering that actually their very first customers may break/even with their units despite the delays.

and what is avalon doing?....they sale millions of avalon chips....it is the same thing

BFL sells chips, too. But only 100,000 https://products.butterflylabs.com/65nm-asic-bitcoin-mining-chip.html

any idea what the TH will be in November / dec  2013 ?

is there a link someware to bitcoin hashrate  by end of year predictions ?


my guess:
bfl current orders  ~ 400 Th -- Avalon chips ~ 300 TH --- KnC ~350 TH  ---- Asicminer ~ 100 TH --- BFL chips~ 400 TH
+ Current network ~ 136 TH  = about 1686 TH

[innovation]

Why is everybody so happy that they can produce and deliver so many units per day?

Don't you realize this is a race, and the best way to maximize ROI for customers is to sell batches, as Avalon did?

Just think: if KnC sells 1,500 Jupiters and delivers them quickly, when added to the rest of the network each one will probably produce aprox. 1BTC or less per day, and ROI will be unlikely. If they sell +3,000 Jupiters (which seems likely they will do), when they arrive each Jupiter will produce 0,5BTC per day or less, and ROI won't never happen.

Honestly, it's pretty scary to see them pushing out those numbers. Each additional Jupiter they sell removes value from the previous one. Kinda the same problem we thought BFL would have, but the reality ended up being that they are so slow delivering that actually their very first customers may break/even with their units despite the delays.

and what is avalon doing?....they sale millions of avalon chips....it is the same thing

BFL sells chips, too. But only 100,000 https://products.butterflylabs.com/65nm-asic-bitcoin-mining-chip.html

any idea what the TH will be in November / dec  2013 ?

is there a link someware to bitcoin hashrate  by end of year predictions ?


my guess:
bfl current orders  ~ 400 Th -- Avalon chips ~ 300 TH --- KnC ~350 TH  ---- Asicminer ~ 100 TH --- BFL chips~ 400 TH
+ Current network ~ 136 TH  = about 1686 TH

I think Acisminer will be 500+TH.

[dan99]

I think some of this comments can best be on mining speculation board/thread

[Rampion]

Why is everybody so happy that they can produce and deliver so many units per day?

Don't you realize this is a race, and the best way to maximize ROI for customers is to sell batches, as Avalon did?

Just think: if KnC sells 1,500 Jupiters and delivers them quickly, when added to the rest of the network each one will probably produce aprox. 1BTC or less per day, and ROI will be unlikely. If they sell +3,000 Jupiters (which seems likely they will do), when they arrive each Jupiter will produce 0,5BTC per day or less, and ROI won't never happen.

Honestly, it's pretty scary to see them pushing out those numbers. Each additional Jupiter they sell removes value from the previous one. Kinda the same problem we thought BFL would have, but the reality ended up being that they are so slow delivering that actually their very first customers may break/even with their units despite the delays.

and what is avalon doing?....they sale millions of avalon chips....it is the same thing

BFL sells chips, too. But only 100,000 https://products.butterflylabs.com/65nm-asic-bitcoin-mining-chip.html

any idea what the TH will be in November / dec  2013 ?

is there a link someware to bitcoin hashrate  by end of year predictions ?


my guess:
bfl current orders  ~ 400 Th -- Avalon chips ~ 300 TH --- KnC ~350 TH  ---- Asicminer ~ 100 TH --- BFL chips~ 400 TH
+ Current network ~ 136 TH  = about 1686 TH

With 1686TH/s on the network a 350GHs Jupiter will generate 0.7BTC per daily. That would have been an awful investment.

[KS]

With 1686TH/s on the network a 350GHs Jupiter will generate 0.7BTC per daily. That would have been an awful investment.

That would give you a ROI of 3-4 months at current exchange rate, that's pretty normal. However, there is no reason the difficulty won't keep on rising and if it rises at a continued 25-30% rate, they'll never make ROI (but neither will anyone buying in September/October unless there is a new generation of ASICs with better performance and energy consumption).

[fragout]

Well there will be a small decrease from gpu miners jumping ship and the low hashing ascis. Also the other sha coins will distrubute the load a bit, but the only way any1 is going to make a few $ is if the price of btc increases which is the big unknown in the whole equation.

[idee2013]

Well there will be a small decrease from gpu miners jumping ship and the low hashing ascis. Also the other sha coins will distrubute the load a bit, but the only way any1 is going to make a few $ is if the price of btc increases which is the big unknown in the whole equation.

+1

[KS]

Well there will be a small decrease from gpu miners jumping ship and the low hashing ascis. Also the other sha coins will distrubute the load a bit, but the only way any1 is going to make a few $ is if the price of btc increases which is the big unknown in the whole equation.

I don't think we'll even notice when they're gone.

[Rampion]

Well there will be a small decrease from gpu miners jumping ship and the low hashing ascis. Also the other sha coins will distrubute the load a bit, but the only way any1 is going to make a few $ is if the price of btc increases which is the big unknown in the whole equation.

+1

Then it's just more profitable to simply buy BTC with your fiat and not miners. The point in mining is to get more BTC for your fiat than simply buying BTC on the market.

[Bitcoinorama]

Well there will be a small decrease from gpu miners jumping ship and the low hashing ascis. Also the other sha coins will distrubute the load a bit, but the only way any1 is going to make a few $ is if the price of btc increases which is the big unknown in the whole equation.

+1

Then it's just more profitable to simply buy BTC with your fiat and not miners. The point in mining is to get more BTC for your fiat than simply buying BTC on the market.

No that's the greed in mining. The point is to distribute the network fairly away from few centrally dominant sources and process the transactions throughout the network that make the currency viable...

[Rampion]

Well there will be a small decrease from gpu miners jumping ship and the low hashing ascis. Also the other sha coins will distrubute the load a bit, but the only way any1 is going to make a few $ is if the price of btc increases which is the big unknown in the whole equation.

+1

Then it's just more profitable to simply buy BTC with your fiat and not miners. The point in mining is to get more BTC for your fiat than simply buying BTC on the market.

No that's the greed in mining. The point is to distribute the network fairly away from few centrally dominant sources and process the transactions throughout the network that make the currency viable...

If mining is an unprofitable endeavour for the average Joe there will be no decentralized mining . People just cannot afford to lose money in the world we live in. ASIC mining poses a very real threat to the network decentralization, and that's why Scrypt based coins have been developed and Avalon says that they always wanted to go open source and sell chips only.

[Loredo]

my guess:
bfl current orders  ~ 400 Th -- Avalon chips ~ 300 TH --- KnC ~350 TH  ---- Asicminer ~ 100 TH --- BFL chips~ 400 TH
+ Current network ~ 136 TH  = about 1686 TH

You forgot bitfury. 

IMO, the only model that makes sense forward is Asicminer's.  KNC has spoken of it, as has bitfury.  Instead of pools where individual, decentralized P2P nodes are mining from basements and bedrooms, there evolve a relatively small number of massive, rapidly scalable farms, collectively owned by many small holders, sharing the network hash rate against each other, in a game-theoretic equilibrium.

If these groups control their own chip supplies, then there is no incentive for any one group to try to poach a larger share of the network by bring more power on line, since that would be met by competitive response from the others.

In my mind, that wouldn't be too dismal a future.

[btceic]

Well there will be a small decrease from gpu miners jumping ship and the low hashing ascis. Also the other sha coins will distrubute the load a bit, but the only way any1 is going to make a few $ is if the price of btc increases which is the big unknown in the whole equation.

+1

Then it's just more profitable to simply buy BTC with your fiat and not miners. The point in mining is to get more BTC for your fiat than simply buying BTC on the market.

No that's the greed in mining. The point is to distribute the network fairly away from few centrally dominant sources and process the transactions throughout the network that make the currency viable...

If mining is an unprofitable endeavour for the average Joe there will be no decentralized mining . People just cannot afford to lose money in the world we live in. ASIC mining poses a very real threat to the network decentralization, and that's why Scrypt based coins have been developed and Avalon says that they always wanted to go open source and sell chips only.

Sorry to tell you this, but it already is, not everybody has $1000's or 10s of $1000's to drop on multi GH/s hardware.

[Bitcoinorama]

my guess:
bfl current orders  ~ 400 Th -- Avalon chips ~ 300 TH --- KnC ~350 TH  ---- Asicminer ~ 100 TH --- BFL chips~ 400 TH
+ Current network ~ 136 TH  = about 1686 TH

You forgot bitfury.  

IMO, the only model that makes sense forward is Asicminer's.  KNC has spoken of it, as has bitfury.  Instead of pools where individual, decentralized P2P nodes are mining from basements and bedrooms, there evolve a relatively small number of massive, rapidly scalable farms, collectively owned by many small holders, sharing the network hash rate against each other, in a game-theoretic equilibrium.

If these groups control their own chip supplies, then there is no incentive for any one group to try to poach a larger share of the network by bring more power on line, since that would be met by competitive response from the others.

In my mind, that wouldn't be too dismal a future.

I think I agree with this outcome, though the distribution needs to be global at least. You cannot have 3-4 entities only. They could be shut off so much easier by government intervention. Also, some people want a whirring electronic miner processing transactions in their home. Just for the fair distribution and geekiness alone. I do!

[Loredo]

though the distribution needs to be global at least. You cannot have 3-4 entities only.

Also, some people want a whirring electronic miner processing transactions in their home. Just for the fair distribution and geekiness alone. I do!

Absolutely right on the first point.  And, in fact, it's unlikely that any would be based in USA, or even, as it is looking, the European Union countries.  Whatever the marginal cost per Thps boils down to (AM indicated to stockholders not long ago they were around 10K USD per terra hash), anyone who can get within the ballpark of the others could form up.  The point is, absolute hash capacity will be meaningless; the metric will be economic relative hash rate.   

The period of scamming that is happening right now won't last forever.  As soon as the dreams of wealth beyond avarice that a BFL Mini was going to provide twelve months ago fade away, and BTC begins to enter a period of being treated as an investment, the scammers will move elsewhere.  There's always someplace for them to go.

[Bitcoinorama]

though the distribution needs to be global at least. You cannot have 3-4 entities only.

Also, some people want a whirring electronic miner processing transactions in their home. Just for the fair distribution and geekiness alone. I do!

Absolutely right on the first point.  And, in fact, it's unlikely that any would be based in USA, or even, as it is looking, the European Union countries.  Whatever the marginal cost per Thps boils down to (AM indicated to stockholders not long ago they were around 10K USD per terra hash), anyone who can get within the ballpark of the others could form up.  The point is, absolute hash capacity will be meaningless; the metric will be economic relative hash rate.  

The period of scamming that is happening right now won't last forever.  As soon as the dreams of wealth beyond avarice that a BFL Mini was going to provide twelve months ago fade away, and BTC begins to enter a period of being treated as an investment, the scammers will move elsewhere.  There's always someplace for them to go.

What I would like to see is groups of collectives with shared hashrate spread far and wide across the globe. Rewarding investment in pools. That's the way ahead. Not shared hashrate dominated by just a few main players. That becomes too corporate and centralised and is at risk from corruption/government intervention.

[ilpirata79]

I am in with 4 shares = 2 BTC

[retro72]

Thanks for the info Bitcoinorama and all the other folks that contributed. I think I've made up my mind about KnC and asic purchasing in general.

The way I see it. The arrival of asics in rapid and large scale as Knc and several others propose will kill profitability in the short to medium term. People who have invested thousand of dollars in asics will try to dump their bitcoin as soon as they mine it to pay for their investments before the dif goes through the roof. This will create a buyers market and the price of btc will plummet.

The smart players and long term investors will hoard and bottom feed but they will be the few. Many many more will sell as long as its still profitable for fear of losses. Unfortunately human nature being what it is a lot of people have jumped in feet first thinking this would be an endless source of easy money, probably going into debt to fund it. They will be the first to panic and flood the market with cheap coin. This will probably start a snowball effect that will collapse the market for months until things level out. The proverbial "fire sale"

And when the dust settles the time for small miners will be gone. Unless you are willing to constantly upgrade and treat this as a business you will eventually have a nice warm metal brick sitting in your garage. Bitcoin will be dominated by those with deep pockets and ebay will be flooded with cheap asics.

This might sound alarmist but this has a similar feel to the dotcom and housing bubbles that many people lost their shirts in. People saw a rising market and jumped in without looking at the fundamentals betting more than they could afford on the promise of easy cash. Not that long ago btc was at $260 probably for the same reason. Fools rushing in.

Personally, I'll just keep my renderfarm (12gh) chugging away at ltc and leave asics to the gamblers, for now.

[mandelmus]

The way I see it. The arrival of asics in rapid and large scale as Knc and several others propose will kill profitability in the short to medium term. People who have invested thousand of dollars in asics will try to dump their bitcoin as soon as they mine it to pay for their investments before the dif goes through the roof. This will create a buyers market and the price of btc will plummet.

The smart players and long term investors will hoard and bottom feed but they will be the few. Many many more will sell as long as its still profitable for fear of losses. Unfortunately human nature being what it is a lot of people have jumped in feet first thinking this would be an endless source of easy money, probably going into debt to fund it. They will be the first to panic and flood the market with cheap coin. This will probably start a snowball effect that will collapse the market for months until things level out. The proverbial "fire sale"

And when the dust settles the time for small miners will be gone. Unless you are willing to constantly upgrade and treat this as a business you will eventually have a nice warm metal brick sitting in your garage. Bitcoin will be dominated by those with deep pockets and ebay will be flooded with cheap asics.

This might sound alarmist but this has a similar feel to the dotcom and housing bubbles that many people lost their shirts in. People saw a rising market and jumped in without looking at the fundamentals betting more than they could afford on the promise of easy cash. Not that long ago btc was at $260 probably for the same reason. Fools rushing in.

Ya, that's pretty much exactly how it could play out.  It took 2 years since the last run-up, plus a financial crisis, to produce this hyperbolic run-up ... how many years till the next hyperbolic run-up?  Since these ASICs wouldn't work on LTC mining, perhaps we'll see a shift to LTC after the dust settles.

[DPoS]

Three main factors

First, lots of current pre-orders, many of which bought with btc... those piles can't sit and have to be turned into chips, miners.  There will be sharp crashes like we saw a week ago.  Expect a few more.

Then later in the year, all these new miners will want to grab their ROI and you can have more selling and selling.   This will go until end of next winter.

but the third factor is the other way...  if more and more of the marketplace grows you can see the need for btc out pace or at least lessen the selloffs. 

That's why I tell anyone who already made small fortures in btc that they would be better off expanding the marketplace than to double down and try to mine in this next phase.   They can gain so much more in protecting and expanding what their current wealth already is, instead of risking it just squeeze more coin out and then even if they do, the support can shrink and then what do they have?

One of the main reasons btc has value is in the EFFORT that is put in to use it.  Just because there will only be 21 million does not create value, it restricts it from being debased.  The efforts on using it is what really translates into the value of the coin

[KS]

Thanks for the info Bitcoinorama and all the other folks that contributed. I think I've made up my mind about KnC and asic purchasing in general.

The way I see it. The arrival of asics in rapid and large scale as Knc and several others propose will kill profitability in the short to medium term. People who have invested thousand of dollars in asics will try to dump their bitcoin as soon as they mine it to pay for their investments before the dif goes through the roof. This will create a buyers market and the price of btc will plummet.

The smart players and long term investors will hoard and bottom feed but they will be the few. Many many more will sell as long as its still profitable for fear of losses. Unfortunately human nature being what it is a lot of people have jumped in feet first thinking this would be an endless source of easy money, probably going into debt to fund it. They will be the first to panic and flood the market with cheap coin. This will probably start a snowball effect that will collapse the market for months until things level out. The proverbial "fire sale"

And when the dust settles the time for small miners will be gone. Unless you are willing to constantly upgrade and treat this as a business you will eventually have a nice warm metal brick sitting in your garage. Bitcoin will be dominated by those with deep pockets and ebay will be flooded with cheap asics.

This might sound alarmist but this has a similar feel to the dotcom and housing bubbles that many people lost their shirts in. People saw a rising market and jumped in without looking at the fundamentals betting more than they could afford on the promise of easy cash. Not that long ago btc was at $260 probably for the same reason. Fools rushing in.

Personally, I'll just keep my renderfarm (12gh) chugging away at ltc and leave asics to the gamblers, for now.

ASIC hashrate will be limited by the same factor that limited GPU nad FPGA hashrate: money. The same people are converting their farms to ASICs, some new ones are investing in new farms (some poor souls jut bought their FPGAs/GPUS and might be out of the ASIC race), but overall, the money spent on ASICs will be roughly the same as the money spent on older technologies.

I expect the sharp raise in difficulty to top off in the 10-20x range, then resume the 10% increase, probably followed by a small dip (as seen in the GPU and FPGA ramp ups).

Small time miners will still be able to use GPUs if their electricity is cheap or they will be able to buy cheap 5GH/s miners at around 300 USD. The equipment will be less versatile, so it will indeed deter casual new entrants, but I don't think it will deter the more serious ones.

Also, I don't think the fire sale will happen. We might see an increase in BTC being converted by new entrants, but the bulk is still in the hands of the current miners who are just converting to ASICs to keep their revenue level, so I wouldn't worry too much. The current price is probably still inflated, so it might indeed crash, but I don't think it will be because of miners dumping their coins (besides, if it becomes unprofitable to mine, they will shutdown the equipment and the others will profit from a lower difficulty and a new cycle starts).

[amencon]

Thanks for the info Bitcoinorama and all the other folks that contributed. I think I've made up my mind about KnC and asic purchasing in general.

The way I see it. The arrival of asics in rapid and large scale as Knc and several others propose will kill profitability in the short to medium term. People who have invested thousand of dollars in asics will try to dump their bitcoin as soon as they mine it to pay for their investments before the dif goes through the roof. This will create a buyers market and the price of btc will plummet.

The smart players and long term investors will hoard and bottom feed but they will be the few. Many many more will sell as long as its still profitable for fear of losses. Unfortunately human nature being what it is a lot of people have jumped in feet first thinking this would be an endless source of easy money, probably going into debt to fund it. They will be the first to panic and flood the market with cheap coin. This will probably start a snowball effect that will collapse the market for months until things level out. The proverbial "fire sale"

And when the dust settles the time for small miners will be gone. Unless you are willing to constantly upgrade and treat this as a business you will eventually have a nice warm metal brick sitting in your garage. Bitcoin will be dominated by those with deep pockets and ebay will be flooded with cheap asics.

This might sound alarmist but this has a similar feel to the dotcom and housing bubbles that many people lost their shirts in. People saw a rising market and jumped in without looking at the fundamentals betting more than they could afford on the promise of easy cash. Not that long ago btc was at $260 probably for the same reason. Fools rushing in.

Personally, I'll just keep my renderfarm (12gh) chugging away at ltc and leave asics to the gamblers, for now.

There is another potential ASIC investor scenario that would have the opposite effect of the one you describe.  The investor has BTC either bought or mined when bitcoins were "cheap".  They spend BTC to buy ASIC miners, in essence doubling down on their BTC investment.  Those BTC get converted to USD now creating selling pressure on the price.  If/when the ASICs arrive they then use the ASIC equipment to restock/"hoard" the BTC they spent on the machinery.

I think both scenarios will play out but I have no clue in what percentages they will exist.

[retro72]

There is another potential ASIC investor scenario that would have the opposite effect of the one you describe.  The investor has BTC either bought or mined when bitcoins were "cheap".  They spend BTC to buy ASIC miners, in essence doubling down on their BTC investment.  Those BTC get converted to USD now creating selling pressure on the price.  If/when the ASICs arrive they then use the ASIC equipment to restock/"hoard" the BTC they spent on the machinery.

I think both scenarios will play out but I have no clue in what percentages they will exist.

Yes this is definitely true. But if what has been seen in the KnC miner thread is a general trend, there are a worrying amount of people who aren't using btc. They are using credit cards, bank transfers and apparently someone even paid with cash.
The price of btc has dropped more than 30% in the last week and is bouncing along at $100. I'm not sure there are many people around that have been in a market with this kind of volatility. The people that have to sell  to pay off their debt will sell at any profitable price as they have no idea where the price will be next week.


 

[Bitcoinorama]

Thanks for the info Bitcoinorama and all the other folks that contributed. I think I've made up my mind about KnC and asic purchasing in general.

The way I see it. The arrival of asics in rapid and large scale as Knc and several others propose will kill profitability in the short to medium term. People who have invested thousand of dollars in asics will try to dump their bitcoin as soon as they mine it to pay for their investments before the dif goes through the roof. This will create a buyers market and the price of btc will plummet.

The smart players and long term investors will hoard and bottom feed but they will be the few. Many many more will sell as long as its still profitable for fear of losses. Unfortunately human nature being what it is a lot of people have jumped in feet first thinking this would be an endless source of easy money, probably going into debt to fund it. They will be the first to panic and flood the market with cheap coin. This will probably start a snowball effect that will collapse the market for months until things level out. The proverbial "fire sale"

And when the dust settles the time for small miners will be gone. Unless you are willing to constantly upgrade and treat this as a business you will eventually have a nice warm metal brick sitting in your garage. Bitcoin will be dominated by those with deep pockets and ebay will be flooded with cheap asics.

This might sound alarmist but this has a similar feel to the dotcom and housing bubbles that many people lost their shirts in. People saw a rising market and jumped in without looking at the fundamentals betting more than they could afford on the promise of easy cash. Not that long ago btc was at $260 probably for the same reason. Fools rushing in.

Personally, I'll just keep my renderfarm (12gh) chugging away at ltc and leave asics to the gamblers, for now.

I think this is a hugely important post. I have answers to your Q's to add later. I'm just waiting on Daggeteo to give me a green light on video...

[Rampion]

Thanks for the info Bitcoinorama and all the other folks that contributed. I think I've made up my mind about KnC and asic purchasing in general.

The way I see it. The arrival of asics in rapid and large scale as Knc and several others propose will kill profitability in the short to medium term. People who have invested thousand of dollars in asics will try to dump their bitcoin as soon as they mine it to pay for their investments before the dif goes through the roof. This will create a buyers market and the price of btc will plummet.

The smart players and long term investors will hoard and bottom feed but they will be the few. Many many more will sell as long as its still profitable for fear of losses. Unfortunately human nature being what it is a lot of people have jumped in feet first thinking this would be an endless source of easy money, probably going into debt to fund it. They will be the first to panic and flood the market with cheap coin. This will probably start a snowball effect that will collapse the market for months until things level out. The proverbial "fire sale"

And when the dust settles the time for small miners will be gone. Unless you are willing to constantly upgrade and treat this as a business you will eventually have a nice warm metal brick sitting in your garage. Bitcoin will be dominated by those with deep pockets and ebay will be flooded with cheap asics.

This might sound alarmist but this has a similar feel to the dotcom and housing bubbles that many people lost their shirts in. People saw a rising market and jumped in without looking at the fundamentals betting more than they could afford on the promise of easy cash. Not that long ago btc was at $260 probably for the same reason. Fools rushing in.

Personally, I'll just keep my renderfarm (12gh) chugging away at ltc and leave asics to the gamblers, for now.

I think this is a hugely important post. I have answers to your Q's to add later. I'm just waiting on Daggeteo to give me a green light on video...

It would be very useful to have an estimate on how many TH/s KnCMiner is planning to ship & deploy from September to the end the year. This is a very important point, as in the mining business if you deploy too many TH/s you are actually killing any ROI possibility for all your customers. I hope they have a plan to protect their customers investment - please advise.

[Bitcoinorama]

Thanks for the info Bitcoinorama and all the other folks that contributed. I think I've made up my mind about KnC and asic purchasing in general.

The way I see it. The arrival of asics in rapid and large scale as Knc and several others propose will kill profitability in the short to medium term. People who have invested thousand of dollars in asics will try to dump their bitcoin as soon as they mine it to pay for their investments before the dif goes through the roof. This will create a buyers market and the price of btc will plummet.

The smart players and long term investors will hoard and bottom feed but they will be the few. Many many more will sell as long as its still profitable for fear of losses. Unfortunately human nature being what it is a lot of people have jumped in feet first thinking this would be an endless source of easy money, probably going into debt to fund it. They will be the first to panic and flood the market with cheap coin. This will probably start a snowball effect that will collapse the market for months until things level out. The proverbial "fire sale"

And when the dust settles the time for small miners will be gone. Unless you are willing to constantly upgrade and treat this as a business you will eventually have a nice warm metal brick sitting in your garage. Bitcoin will be dominated by those with deep pockets and ebay will be flooded with cheap asics.

This might sound alarmist but this has a similar feel to the dotcom and housing bubbles that many people lost their shirts in. People saw a rising market and jumped in without looking at the fundamentals betting more than they could afford on the promise of easy cash. Not that long ago btc was at $260 probably for the same reason. Fools rushing in.

Personally, I'll just keep my renderfarm (12gh) chugging away at ltc and leave asics to the gamblers, for now.

I think this is a hugely important post. I have answers to your Q's to add later. I'm just waiting on Daggeteo to give me a green light on video...

It would be very useful to have an estimate on how many TH/s KnCMiner is planning to ship & deploy from September to the end the year. This is a very important point, as in the mining business if you deploy too many TH/s you are actually killing any ROI possibility for all your customers. I hope they have a plan to protect their customers investment - please advise.

I did ask and they said their customer's ROI is a priority. They can only sell items that give a return. That their pricing has never been too cheap, it's a case of predicting future global hashrate. They said they have a few options to make sure customers get a return.

[Rampion]

It would be very useful to have an estimate on how many TH/s KnCMiner is planning to ship & deploy from September to the end the year. This is a very important point, as in the mining business if you deploy too many TH/s you are actually killing any ROI possibility for all your customers. I hope they have a plan to protect their customers investment - please advise.

I did ask and they said their customer's ROI is a priority. They can only sell items that give a return. That their pricing has never been too cheap, it's a case of predicting future global hashrate. They said they have a few options to make sure customers get a return.

Thanks for that but I guess everybody would appreciate a concrete answer. What they plan to do? Firstly and foremost, how many TH/s are they planning to ship&deploy, and how fast? This is the very first step in a "paln" to make sure customers get a return.

[Bitcoinorama]

It would be very useful to have an estimate on how many TH/s KnCMiner is planning to ship & deploy from September to the end the year. This is a very important point, as in the mining business if you deploy too many TH/s you are actually killing any ROI possibility for all your customers. I hope they have a plan to protect their customers investment - please advise.

I did ask and they said their customer's ROI is a priority. They can only sell items that give a return. That their pricing has never been too cheap, it's a case of predicting future global hashrate. They said they have a few options to make sure customers get a return.

Thanks for that but I guess everybody would appreciate a concrete answer. What they plan to do? Firstly and foremost, how many TH/s are they planning to ship&deploy, and how fast? This is the very first step in a "paln" to make sure customers get a return.

I'm not sure I can answer that question. Email Sam and ask. I know BFL weren't forthcoming when I asked. After the forum Q&A's were asked, questions around this area did surface and numbers were thrown around by other forum members which were in line with what had been sold at that point (a week ago). I'm not sure if that was on, or off-record so I won't comment unless allowed to. It wasn't a worry at that point. As JohnyJ stated; 28nm will lead the chip production for the foreseeable future as the benchmark should they achieve this.

[Korbman]

First, lots of current pre-orders, many of which bought with btc... those piles can't sit and have to be turned into chips, miners.  There will be sharp crashes like we saw a week ago.  Expect a few more.

How is it BitPay has been around this long and still so many people have no idea how the process works when you pay with Bitcoins...

[amencon]

There is another potential ASIC investor scenario that would have the opposite effect of the one you describe.  The investor has BTC either bought or mined when bitcoins were "cheap".  They spend BTC to buy ASIC miners, in essence doubling down on their BTC investment.  Those BTC get converted to USD now creating selling pressure on the price.  If/when the ASICs arrive they then use the ASIC equipment to restock/"hoard" the BTC they spent on the machinery.

I think both scenarios will play out but I have no clue in what percentages they will exist.

Yes this is definitely true. But if what has been seen in the KnC miner thread is a general trend, there are a worrying amount of people who aren't using btc. They are using credit cards, bank transfers and apparently someone even paid with cash.
The price of btc has dropped more than 30% in the last week and is bouncing along at $100. I'm not sure there are many people around that have been in a market with this kind of volatility. The people that have to sell  to pay off their debt will sell at any profitable price as they have no idea where the price will be next week.


 

Yes you're right, that is a scary thought.

[Bitcoinorama]

There is another potential ASIC investor scenario that would have the opposite effect of the one you describe.  The investor has BTC either bought or mined when bitcoins were "cheap".  They spend BTC to buy ASIC miners, in essence doubling down on their BTC investment.  Those BTC get converted to USD now creating selling pressure on the price.  If/when the ASICs arrive they then use the ASIC equipment to restock/"hoard" the BTC they spent on the machinery.

I think both scenarios will play out but I have no clue in what percentages they will exist.

Yes this is definitely true. But if what has been seen in the KnC miner thread is a general trend, there are a worrying amount of people who aren't using btc. They are using credit cards, bank transfers and apparently someone even paid with cash.
The price of btc has dropped more than 30% in the last week and is bouncing along at $100. I'm not sure there are many people around that have been in a market with this kind of volatility. The people that have to sell  to pay off their debt will sell at any profitable price as they have no idea where the price will be next week.


 

Yes you're right, that is a scary thought.

It's also precisely why anyone using debt to finance any of these mining ventures is nuts!

[Rampion]

There is another potential ASIC investor scenario that would have the opposite effect of the one you describe.  The investor has BTC either bought or mined when bitcoins were "cheap".  They spend BTC to buy ASIC miners, in essence doubling down on their BTC investment.  Those BTC get converted to USD now creating selling pressure on the price.  If/when the ASICs arrive they then use the ASIC equipment to restock/"hoard" the BTC they spent on the machinery.

I think both scenarios will play out but I have no clue in what percentages they will exist.

Yes this is definitely true. But if what has been seen in the KnC miner thread is a general trend, there are a worrying amount of people who aren't using btc. They are using credit cards, bank transfers and apparently someone even paid with cash.
The price of btc has dropped more than 30% in the last week and is bouncing along at $100. I'm not sure there are many people around that have been in a market with this kind of volatility. The people that have to sell  to pay off their debt will sell at any profitable price as they have no idea where the price will be next week.


 

Yes you're right, that is a scary thought.

Let me state something very clearly: anybody incurring in debt to invest in Bitcoin related businesses is a reckless and clueless dumbass that deserves to go broke. This is a super high risk investment, it's much riskier than just buying BTC, which is high-risk by itself. I think nobody is so stupid to have asked for a loan to buy mining equipment from KnCminer or others.

BTW: Bitcoinorama, you seem to know everything that needs to be known about KNC. Do you have an idea of what are those gray numbers just by the name of each unit? See the images below, I mean the "250" close to Jupiter and "34" close to Saturn:





BTW, there's seems to be a massive number of units still in stock.

Do we know if they already arrived to the initial goal? I mean: did they order the chips yet? Crucial question. Time is ticking.

If the "available units" on KNC's web are correct, that means that 1,000TH are still available. Considering the +150TH in Avalon chips, plus another 100TH by ASICMINER, and +400TH by BFL, that would take difficulty to at least to 200 million. Without even counting for Bitfury. ROI is going to be tough, guys. If there is someone so dumb to have asked for a loan to buy ASIC... He might better cancel his order, this is going to be a tough fight for peanuts - as mining has always been, apart from that small timeframe in which ASIC equipment supply was hyper-short, and the very lucky ones who had one unit took all the profits.

[szmarco]

There is another potential ASIC investor scenario that would have the opposite effect of the one you describe.  The investor has BTC either bought or mined when bitcoins were "cheap".  They spend BTC to buy ASIC miners, in essence doubling down on their BTC investment.  Those BTC get converted to USD now creating selling pressure on the price.  If/when the ASICs arrive they then use the ASIC equipment to restock/"hoard" the BTC they spent on the machinery.

I think both scenarios will play out but I have no clue in what percentages they will exist.

Yes this is definitely true. But if what has been seen in the KnC miner thread is a general trend, there are a worrying amount of people who aren't using btc. They are using credit cards, bank transfers and apparently someone even paid with cash.
The price of btc has dropped more than 30% in the last week and is bouncing along at $100. I'm not sure there are many people around that have been in a market with this kind of volatility. The people that have to sell  to pay off their debt will sell at any profitable price as they have no idea where the price will be next week.


 

Yes you're right, that is a scary thought.

Let me state something very clearly: anybody incurring in debt to invest in Bitcoin related businesses is a reckless and clueless dumbass that deserves to go broke. This is a super high risk investment, it's much riskier than just buying BTC, which is high-risk by itself. I think nobody is so stupid to have asked for a loan to buy mining equipment from KnCminer or others.

BTW: Bitcoinorama, you seem to know everything that needs to be known about KNC. Do you have an idea of what are those gray numbers just by the name of each unit? See the images below, I mean the "250" close to Jupiter and "34" close to Saturn:





BTW, there's seems to be a massive number of units still in stock.

Do we know if they already arrived to the initial goal? I mean: did they order the chips yet? Crucial question. Time is ticking.

If the "available units" on KNC's web are correct, that means that 1,000TH are still available. Considering the +150TH in Avalon chips, plus another 100TH by ASICMINER, and +400TH by BFL, that would take difficulty at least to 200 million. Without even counting for Bitfury. ROI is going to be tough, guys.

the number is SKU value.

[Bitcoinorama]

BTW: Bitcoinorama, you seem to know everything that needs to be known about KNC. Do you have an idea of what are those gray numbers just by the name of each unit? See the images below, I mean the "250" close to Jupiter and "34" close to Saturn:





BTW, there's seems to be a massive number of units still in stock.

Do we know if they already arrived to the initial goal? I mean: did they order the chips yet? Crucial question. Time is ticking.

Don't know, have wondered about the grey figures myself, used to think it was order relevant and just thought it wasn't important. First, need to finish this next bit I have almost written-up, and want to post the video, then I will ask...

[szmarco]

SKU(stock keeping unit),It tells you how big the parcel you delivered is.

[KS]

SKU(stock keeping unit),It tells you how big the parcel you delivered is.

SKU is just a unique reference number for an item.

[szmarco]

SKU(stock keeping unit),It tells you how big the parcel you delivered is.

SKU is just a unique reference number for an item.

no. i don't think so.

[bitpop]

Lol how big?
I got a 10" sku for you

[KS]

SKU(stock keeping unit),It tells you how big the parcel you delivered is.

SKU is just a unique reference number for an item.

no. i don't think so.

It's your stock reference for that item. So, if people order from you and use the SKU number, they are certain to get that specific item. If they give you the description of what they want, you might have several variations of the same item (say different languages, colors, etc). With the SKU, they know exactly what they will get (unless you mess up the order/delivery).

(SKU != serial number.)

[Bitcoinorama]

SKU(stock keeping unit),It tells you how big the parcel you delivered is.

SKU is just a unique reference number for an item.

no. i don't think so.

It's your stock reference for that item. So, if people order from you and use the SKU number, they are certain to get that specific item. If they give you the description of what they want, you might have several variations of the same item (say different languages, colors, etc). With the SKU, they know exactly what they will get (unless you mess up the order/delivery).

(SKU != serial number.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_keeping_unit

[Bitcoinorama]

Also was reading this;

http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/speech/pdf/20130613.pdf

I suggest everybody else does as well...

[szmarco]

sorry, My mistake. Thanks for your information.

[KS]

SKU(stock keeping unit),It tells you how big the parcel you delivered is.

SKU is just a unique reference number for an item.

no. i don't think so.

It's your stock reference for that item. So, if people order from you and use the SKU number, they are certain to get that specific item. If they give you the description of what they want, you might have several variations of the same item (say different languages, colors, etc). With the SKU, they know exactly what they will get (unless you mess up the order/delivery).

(SKU != serial number.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_keeping_unit

SKU can also refer to a unique identifier or code that refers to the particular stock keeping unit.

Dude, I use SKUs everyday. My suppliers use SKUs everyday. When we talk SKUs, this^ is what it means. I'm sure we're all wrong, but that's how it's used.

[Bagpipe]

As for the KnC miner numbers, they totally, utterly had a plan of flooding the market with something that may be a collective 30% saturation. The numbers sold by the preorders were far less than what they expected to sell ...

How do you know it was far less than they expected?

... and the expenses for this project will run into 4 to 6 million USD when we count their engineering work too.

I'm sure they have surpassed 7 million USD by this point.  Does anyone have the actual sales numbers yet?

So selling KnC miners at least to a break-even point and NOT ruining the BTC network seems like an impossible task.

So, you are thinking that KnC miners will ruin the BTC network? 

There are so many factors to consider:  Will KnC be able to deliver by September?  Who else will flood the market with ASICs before KnC gets their products delivered?  Where will the exchange-to-BTC rate be in September ... what if the exchange rate drops back down to 5 USD per BTC?  How will this flood of ASICs affect us little guys who are mining for only pennies a day?

On the other hand, could this be a really good thing for the Bitcoin economy?  Will the Bitcoin economy become stronger, more effective, efficient and resilient, with this increased flooding of ASICs on the market? 

1) I asked
2) I was talking expenses, not ORDERS, that is how much money you send to taiwan

[johnyj]

Even current ASIC manufacturers make some organization like OPEC, due to there are hidden players developing ASICs mining for themselves, that does not work either. One of the most important mission of ASIC miner manufacturers is to promote the bitcoin-only sale to support the price of bitcoin (hence their own income)

This is simply not true... and even if it was, it would be disastrous to bitcoin long term considering all you have at that point is an exclusive club where the only persons who have access to the tools of the trade are those that had got into the mining market at ground level and have a hoard of bitcoin. Meanwhile these companies producing their mining products are reliant on third-party vendors to exchange their bitcoin to pay the vendors that only accept local currency for the raw material needed to make the finished products. This is NOT good for business.

This practice is just not tenable and you can see that in the moves that most of the major ASIC manufacturers are making towards including PayPal's shitty service into their payment options (ie. BFL, Terrahash, KNCMiner) because they know that people that weren't in the game before are already scared as it is moving into a highly volatile new currency let alone, the promise of generating it, and will need a comfortable entry point into the market in order to have any chance of growth.

Sure you can counter argue the use of Mt.Gox and other exchanges are there to serve as intermediaries but the reality is people are lazy, scared, and resistant to change... And the easier you make for them to enter into the market, the more sustainable the growth and confidence in it will be long term. The companies know/are learning this and is one of the best chances that Bitcoin has to succeed.

Just because people can always use fiat money to do the purchase, there is no need for bitcoin, and if there is no need for bitcoin, it's value will be heavily affected by speculators on exchanges

Avalon already done bitcoin-only sales and based on recent report their bitcoin income never cashed out to fiat, this is a great approach for a bitcoin related business, but I think not every one understand the meaning behind this move

This is the huge difference between a bitcoin entrepreneur and a classical entrepreneur. A classical entrepreneur only cares about his profit, because the value of fiat money is not his business. A bitcoin entrepreneur usually care about promoting the value of bitcoin itself, because in this economy no one can change the money supply, so in general their business decision will all have a impact on the value of bitcoin

[johnyj]

Three main factors

First, lots of current pre-orders, many of which bought with btc... those piles can't sit and have to be turned into chips, miners.  There will be sharp crashes like we saw a week ago.  Expect a few more.

Then later in the year, all these new miners will want to grab their ROI and you can have more selling and selling.   This will go until end of next winter.

but the third factor is the other way...  if more and more of the marketplace grows you can see the need for btc out pace or at least lessen the selloffs.  

That's why I tell anyone who already made small fortures in btc that they would be better off expanding the marketplace than to double down and try to mine in this next phase.   They can gain so much more in protecting and expanding what their current wealth already is, instead of risking it just squeeze more coin out and then even if they do, the support can shrink and then what do they have?

One of the main reasons btc has value is in the EFFORT that is put in to use it.  Just because there will only be 21 million does not create value, it restricts it from being debased.  The efforts on using it is what really translates into the value of the coin

Exactly, if there are many bitcoin-only products, then just like euro-only products in Germany, it is possible to create a whole bitcoin economy as strong as German's economy, but has no any physical form of country/government

All currency's value, to its root, is backed by the economy behind it

[Bitcoinorama]

Three main factors

First, lots of current pre-orders, many of which bought with btc... those piles can't sit and have to be turned into chips, miners.  There will be sharp crashes like we saw a week ago.  Expect a few more.

Then later in the year, all these new miners will want to grab their ROI and you can have more selling and selling.   This will go until end of next winter.

but the third factor is the other way...  if more and more of the marketplace grows you can see the need for btc out pace or at least lessen the selloffs.  

That's why I tell anyone who already made small fortures in btc that they would be better off expanding the marketplace than to double down and try to mine in this next phase.   They can gain so much more in protecting and expanding what their current wealth already is, instead of risking it just squeeze more coin out and then even if they do, the support can shrink and then what do they have?

One of the main reasons btc has value is in the EFFORT that is put in to use it.  Just because there will only be 21 million does not create value, it restricts it from being debased.  The efforts on using it is what really translates into the value of the coin

Exactly, if there are many bitcoin-only products, then just like euro-only products in Germany, it is possible to create a whole bitcoin economy as strong as German's economy, but has no any physical form of country/government

All currency's value, to its root, is backed by the economy behind it

+1

[Bitcoinorama]

EDIT: Videos can be shown in 1080p - though that's caused some problems for some members, so please check your video quality selection in YouTube first!

First here is a video of Marcus discussing die and package size (dreaded portrait mode letterbox, sorry wasn't aware at the time):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by-je8XRCdY&feature=youtu.be

So here is the next part of the Q&A's; Retro 72's questions:
--



--
retro72



1) Did they design the Mars chips or buy them off the shelf?

Sam: It's an FPGA

Me: Yeah...so you programmed it

Marcus: It's an FPGA, so you buy them off the shelf, you program them, we have proven the fastest design, possible, available is err...is running at 106gh, we get 130gh out of it. So obviously we redesign them to make them faster.

Me: Ok, that, that was something he hadn't asked about, but I was gonna, because we were looking at a 30% jump on the pushing the chip, so with respect to what you've done with the FPGA, how does that translate to the ASIC?

Sam: (Pointing at Mars) They're 30% higher.

Me: They are 30%?

Sam: 29% is about right.

Me: Ok

Sam: And we still haven't finished. We still haven't finsihed.

Marcus: No, no, no. We've...we have more to squeeze out of them, which we will do later on, just for the fun of it, eh...

Other forum member interupts: So 175, 350 is a minimum?

Marcus & Sam: Minimum.

Marcus: That's a minimum.

Other forum member: So it could go upto like 420 for the big one?...4...could...?

Marcus: Could.

Sam: Could.

Me: Let's not throw figures around. (General laughter) It's not worth the hassle...but err, so respect to...is that 6gh/s standard?

Sam & Marcus: No.

Sam: 48 Chips.

Marcus: No, no. 48 divided by 306. Calculator. That's 5, 5.1.

(EDIT: 48 multiplied with 106MHash (original design) is 5.1, we wanted to show that we can run faster).

Me: Ok that's cool, that's what I wanted to get at, only because you were saying 30% beforehand and said that 6gh/s.

Sam: 6.2.

Me: Ah yeah...6.2. No you said 6...

Sam interrupts: No we said 6 if we did use some of that gain within the 6.

Me: I didn't know whether the gain was included or not.

Sam: We said 6, knowing we could over achieve 6. So now we're running at..I think we had 6.8...

Daggeteo confims: Yup.

Sam:...earlier we were going to your wallet, right?

Daggeteo confirms: Yup.

Sam: And we haven't finished yet. We stopped at 6.8 to do these demonstrations (open-day, not first
Mars vid)...

I interupt: On a stable...

Sam: On a stable, 6.8, constantly. Now. When you guys have gone, we're gonna crank it up, scale the machine and squeeze it all in, and see what we can get out of it.

(NOTE: Sam spoke the latter part of that last sentence so fast, i'm not sure if he said “scale the machine and squeeze it all in”. It sounds like that. I've listened to it over and over and I cannot make out what is said)

Another member: You should do a burn out.

Me: You should film a burn out test on it.

Sam: If we have time.

Daggeteo: So how will we know?

Sam: Your wallet will let you know, put it that way. (General laughter)

Daggeteo: Hopefully...but I mean em

Sam: Yeah of course, but what the statement was six...

Me: Maybe when your wallet starts smoking...

Sam: The statement was six, that's all we wanted to achieve. We achieved the statement, anything
else is just a bit of fun.

Me: Yeah, no, the only reason I was labouring on that point was because in the literture you said 250, 350 for Jupiter, 17..err...

Sam interupts: You still have the gain on top.

Me: So...but you'd only mentioned 6 before for Mars, so I din't know what you meant wheather that was prior, or as you were in a rush to get Mars out, that you'd not, you know...achieve what you'd wanted to achieve, blah, blah, blah...ok...umm...I'm gonna just go through these...questions.

Marcus: Yeah, go ahead, you...

Me interrupting: Word for word, so, you know, I know you'd pretty much answered, basically
--


2) They seemed to imply they were Altera chips. Did they design them for Altera?

Sam: You just buy them from Altera.

Me: Yeah, I know.

Sam: They're FPGAs

Marcus: They're FPGAs; Altera Stratix 4

(http://www.altera.com/devices/fpga/stratix-fpgas/stratix/stratix/stx-index.jsp)

EDIT: (They're FPGAs; Altera Cyclone 4

(http://www.altera.com/devices/fpga/cyclone-v-fpgas/cyv-index.jsp))

Me: I don't know where he was going with that...

Sam: No I...I mean sure, some people don't understand the FPGA chip. You buy the chip, you put the code inside.

Me: Yeah. I'm aware of that.
--


3) If they did not design the chips, how is the Mars prototype relevant to the asic designs?

Marcus: Well...err...there was two big reasons, a) we wanted a proof of concept to show them that we can build this type of complex design extremely fast.

Me: Umhum

Marcus: Not six months, or four months.

Me: Good, what...

Marcus interrups: We did it in weeks.

Me: Ok good...could you...so have you got an actual day...

Marcus: We were talking about that, weren't we. When actually did we start? To me...

Sam: Actually start? April the...20th? I think it was six weeks man. From then you guys did your pre-study to when the product arrived with the chips actually mounted.

Marcus: So proof of concept to show the community this is what we can do, that this is our speciality. So that, we can design the FPGA faster than anyone else.

Sam: Six weeks to go from zero, to what you see in front of you.

Me: Yup, that's cool...

Marcus: We need to show proof...

Me: Yeah

Marcus: The second reason why it was that we needed something that can verify the ASIC code on, cos when...since we are going directly to ASIC and not the NPW, no prototypes from now, nothing, we need to be 100% sure, not 99%, we need to be 100% sure that the RTL code and every single line of the RTL code that we have done is 100% fully tested. The only way to do that efficiently is to run the same code on an FPGA. We can run it slower, that doesn't matter, but we need to make sure that we run it on an FPGA live against the err..CGMiner because we get billions of test vectors running through that FPGA and that would take us decades to do the simulation, to have the same data. So we are running simulation in parallel of course, but we are able to use the Mars as an ASIC prototype, that's what every semi-condductor guy does today. You put many FPGAs in parrallel, yo try to verify as much of the design as possilble into the FPGA. Luckily our designs are possible so we can test 100% of the RTL in an FPGA...

EDIT: ("NPW" should be "MPW")

Other forum member interrupts: In an FPGA?

Marcus: Yeah.

Sam: Which you've already done.

Marcus: Which we've already done...doing...yeah. I mean normal guys, dual ARM etc., etc. say you can never squeeze in exactly that ARM processor in the FPGA, so you will always have proportions of the design that you can't test in an FPGA, and that's when the risk goes up and you have to do a LBW...

EDIT: ("LBW" should be "MPW"  (Multi Project Wafer))

Me: So that there was going to be my next so where are the weak links in the chain basically?

Marcus None (laughs)

Me: So...your, your that confident?

Marcus: Yes

(General laughing)

Marcus: Yes, yes, absolutely...

Sam: We have tested absolutely everything. We are over-cooling it, we are over powering it; 1000w

Marcus interupting: Oh yeah, we have margins on each.

Sam: We have margins on margins.

Marcus: we have margins and margins on margins just to make sure that we are reducing the risk throughout the whole cell. I mean we have redesigned the RTL code for the ASIC in a way so that we make it easier for the backend guys to do the backend to reduce risk.

Andreas: The devices have to run 24/7 as well. So we have to be confident that when people put the device on the shelf, can run it not for only one day, but hopefully a year down the line.

Sam: In Dubai, in an apartment, without the air-con on!

Andreas: We give them something that is maximum of everything it might work for a while, but then it might break because it was too hot, so we've taken a lot of margins.
--


4) Did they design and fab the PCB?

Marcus: Yes...well...it depends on what you mean by fab? We do the PCB schematic, we also do the PCB layout, but we do not manufacture the PCB board itself. That is done in ASIA so, but we have in-house PCB expertise doing the full schematic and layout.
--


5) Is the software they developed for the Mars, directly applicable to the asics?

Sam: Which software is the question relating to? CGMiner is not our software. I..I..I mean I guess the FPGA code is our code inside. The software is CGMiner. We've written a driver for Mars to work with CGMiner.

Marcus agreeing: Yes

Other forum member: I think he means the FPGA code because if thats appliciable to directly anything

Sam and Marcus: Yes and no.

Marcus: It's a configuration, I mean in that FPGA we only have one core instantiated, of course in a very very large ASIC we have multiple cores.

Other forum member: Yes multiple cores

Marcus: Basically, like I said, we have designed the RTL code in a way to cut down lead time to our backend and fab time that is different from an FPGA code that we have been running, but we are veri, we are using the Mars product to verify the ASIC RTL code to it's full extent. But you can't really do the same, when you design something to be specifically targeting an FPGA, you need to rewrite it. It will not be as efficiently implemented in an ASIC and vice-versa. So we have two different sets. We have one that we are showing the performance enhancement of the Mars, that is FPGA based and we have designed that code to directly fit into the FPGA. You then have the ASIC code, that we are verifying on the Mars product, but that's a unique code, we are verifying it.

Another forum member: Ok, just verifying?

Marcus: Verifying.

Me: I'm really looking forward to typing this up...

(General laughter)

Me: But how...how um...are you working closely with CG Miner? I mean how...

Sam: Well, no, we didn't we didn't just want to say CGMiner, we are working with lot's of developers of mining software, we're not going to put one above...

Me: The..the only reason I ask...is...in terms of your verification issues, as it were...um....it's always great to hear, well for them to hear (forum members) to hear that, that these other respected known members will say,

Sam: acknowledges: Yes, I agree...

Me: “Yup, we've seen this...that they are working on this...”

Sam: Yup, we've contacted the major developers, there on board, they're gonna be given our boxes over the summer that will be functionally identical apart from performance. And then when the chips arrive in September then they will be given the boxes appropriate for testing on.

Me: Is there a reason...is that ah...ip reason that you don't want them to see such things as...

Sam: No, no, no, basically we want to give to them a box that looks identical, to Jupiter, behaves identically in every single way apart from hashing speed. So, they can get their interface, they can get their code inside, they can get their automatic firmware (unknown word? - poor audio) processes working with us, they can do all that kind of stuff, and then we'll be using that for product stuff, like airflow, cooling and other things. And then when the chips do arrive, we will put two chips in the right board, and send them out to them as well. But we don't want to...

Marcus: So we order... (something I can't make out as Sam speaks again – he's physically closer, so louder)

Sam: Exactly

Marcus: ...we've all ready got the surrounding components, power, dcdc modules, the on chip linux software, all that is already developed, tested, ready to go.

But obviously we need their code to work on the box as soon as it's delivered. I mean, it's unfair to ship out a hundred boxes and say, “Sorry guys, you need to wait for CGMiner  to finish”, so they can do all their testing with the other boxes first.
–


6) What problems did they actually run into with the Mars?

Sam: We just wanted to over achieve.

Andreas: It was more umm...getting the code in...and

Me: There were no problems...?

Marcus: Well it was more CGMiner...hiccup

EDIT: (Well it was more our CGMiner driver ....hiccup)

Me: ...and spelling mistakes?

(General laughter)

Me: Have they been solved? Have you been able to fix your spelling mistakes?

Sam: Only, the board still works, right? I mean c'mon...

(Holds up vacant Mars PCB. General laughter)

Sam: ...plug in all it's little things, I mean it'll be fine, it'll still do it's job. I think I might use it as a mouse mat...it's quite an expensive mouse mat...hahaha!

Me: Is there going to be loads of dodgy green paint over the...

Marcus: We need tipex...

(General laughter)
--


8)Do they translate/ have any bearing on the asic design?

Me: I don't know where this...

Sam: I guess you need a previous statement.

Me: Well yeah the, the last phrase...

Sam: Um the errors...well there were no errors so there was nothing to translate to the ASIC design.
--


9) Did they learn anything significant from these issues?

Sam: All of the coding...

Marcus interrupts: Spellcheck!

Sam: Spell check, please, let someone else do it...umm...well ah basically it's just proof of concept of the modular design, wasn't it? The airflow going across the top...

Marcus interrupts: I mean, of course, going back, we're not just sitting here saying that; everything we tested worked the first time, like always in development you test something, and argh it doesn't work, why? You go in and fix it, you hook up the logic (nortic?) analyser, etc. You say, “Ohhh...we err misplaced the pin p-mapping on the ah FPGA, etc., etc...normal development.

EDIT: ("logic analyzer" not nortic, change "p-mapping" to "pin-mapping)

Other forum member: Since you guys did six weeks, no major problems?

Marcus: No major ahh...because otherwise we wouldn't have been able to deliver it in six weeks. You know, that's our statement. Try to beat six weeks...
--


10) They seem to be significantly cheaper than all the other options out there. Why is this?

We need to compete against global hashrate. We don't really have a direct competitor on cost at the moment, and so; we know our devices will arrive in September, and unfortunately we need to take the money now, and give you a competitive product in September.

Me: So this is ...this is...your assumption that it, with all due respect to what's happening with...with hashrate, chance are you're still gonna be...

Sam: Making money for people, yeah. We need you to make money from our products so that you buy a second one...

Another forum member interrupts: So you can make money on...

Sam: So we can make money.

Me: I think...I think where they are getting with that, say with respect to ASICminer, right now, who are milking as much as they can at the moment...

Sam: Right now, they are the only product you can buy, really significant product you can buy, and sure, we would love to say; “here is a USB stick, with an ASIC on it, buy it from me, seventy-five coins”...and I could probably sell it, but I'd much rather we concentrate on this and give a longer term approach and a more reasonable price tag.

Me: Yeah, ok, umm....

Sam: Although, it's still quite a lot of money.

Marcus: Yeah...we...we want to be in this for a long run...

Me: Yeah.

Marcus: We...we want to be in this game for five, ten years.

Other forum member: Considering all that money could've been tied up with BFL pre-orders, you made a good move.

Sam: I think so. We came hard. Not with price, but perfrormance and dropping to 28nm straight away, not developing a 100nm product. I mean we're going to the very front..,

Me: I mean, you're not undercutting and squeezing your margins to the point of non existance, are you? I mean you're still going to...

Sam: We still have to make money.

--


11) Will their prices be fixed, or will they follow the trends in the BTC price/ROI?

12) Will the prices be raised after this initial pre-order period or are these the final RRP?


We're not going to raise out prices...not, not...

Marcus: No. No.

Sam: We've no intention of doing that now.

Me: I mean I know from a couple sort of email conversations with you...

Sam: Yup.

Me: ...err...you've happy to expand the product entry

Sam: Higher, and possibly lower. Um...we do not want, or have any intention of competing with thee $50-100 market...

Me: Well how about $500, that seemes to be...

Sam: Ahh we maybe...maybe down to something like that.

Me: I mean that...

Andreas: It's about support level as well, because we want to be able to operate good support, and if it get's too many people...

Me in agreement: Yeah, yeah...

Andreas: ...we might not be able to handle the support load.

Me: I think a lot of people want to see something around the $500-$750 for instance because that's in the range of two graphics cards...which is what a lot of the common miners are.

Sam: Yeah, yeah, but...and, and we know, if we do, if we drop our...if we do create a product at that level, suddenly we have 30,000 customers, instead of, you know, 2,000 customers up here. We'd have to scale that massively, and it becomes a much larger, larger accommodation. What we might me willing to do is have a Jupiter, or a Saturn and actually split it so you can purchase one from us, say you guys, you wanna come up with a company, you buy 10 jupiters...

me: and distribute...

Sam: ...and chop them into pieces and you sell a piece of Jupiter, because we're gonna see that next year, you're not going to buy much more than a 175, or a 350, because...

Other forum member interupts: Wh...wh...wh...what would a $500, $700 machine make...in, in January?

Sam: Exactly. Not 175, but if you took a larger machine that was say $10,000 or $20,000 dollars then...

Me: You have the economies of scale and then you just split...?

Sam: ...and then you can split that up, and then you guys can buy one of those resell it around your neighbourhood, or to whoever you want and sell out hashing power. So that's the way we kinda see it going...

Me: Ok

Sam: So in theory we see our prices changing, not dollar per hash changing too much, we will always try and be competitive there, but we see our entry prices actually getting higher...

Me: So these little coffee cup warmer things we see people...

Sam: We're probably not gonna bother with things like that, no. No.

Me: I mean, one question that hasn't been asked at all, which I think is crucial to how we've seen with everything operate at the moment, is what are you doing with customer service? How are you gonna be handling...because I don't know how you are going to handle all the orders you've got right now...but we see the clusterf**k that BFL are dealing with at the moment and...um...and they can't, I can't see how...god knows what their email must look like, but yeah it must be going nuts!

Sam: Yes, yes and there is a, there is a good reason why we're not selling $200 products is basically because of the customer service and support that that will generate. We're going to try and stick to the high end of the market, so they are basically the business sellers. The people who are seriously wanting to do it. The customer service there is less, if you like, and we are going to scale to meet that. We've already got more customer services guys now today, that have started.

Me: Do you also assume that, or do you expect your customers to have a certain level of...

Another forum member: ...IT intellect?

Andreas: We expect a proportion of them will have some kind of what is involved about...

Me: Some things will need to be sent backwards, and forwards, which is the case with you know... (Avalon).

Sam: There certainly will be a case of...err we will do what ever we can do remotely. Absolutely.

Me: Yeah.

Sam: Um the device... Jupiter's effectively two devices, and if half...if one half of it breaks you just ship us that half back, and we'll ship it out...um the other idea we have to make our devices a little more friendly is they're gonna come ina, in a box, Marcus calls it; “a fence”, cos it really is to stop your fingers going in, and not much else. There is gonna be a case around it. It's gonna have some power connectors and a, an an ethernet connection, and the idea being is you will come back to our shop later in the year, put your wallet address next to your account, we will then preconfigure that box, with your wallet address, so when your going to a mining pool that you choose from a drop down list, so we will automatically code the little Linux machine, so when it is plugged in, turned on (Shows chip board), that little machine here, it will start hashing against that wallet, via that mining pool, via that worker that you've specified.

Me: So it's plug, and play basically...

Andreas: Yup.

Sam: We're doing the hard work, we're doing the software, we're doing the web interface, why would we not make it easy as possible?

Marcus: Plug in mining.

Andreas: It's supposed to be a self-independent box, there shouldn't be a need to do a lot of stuff, around it. Some people are concerned that they; “Oh so I  have to be a geek to run that one” but, but that's not the idea. We wanted it to be something that you plug in, and then you have it run.

Me: No, I mean, in terms of how I see it, the way I have seen other companies behave Avalon have  in no uncertain terms in the Bitcoin 2013 thing, said, you know, we love being the tech geeky hardware developers, we don't want to have to deal with customer service, so that's what you're getting. If you're happy with it, you know. BFL can't handle, their order volume must be...insane...and umm, yeah, no, it's gonna be a mixture of...of...of...ability levels.

Sam: Always is and language levels. Literally, an English manual would be useless to most of our customers, so they can't Google translate that...um...but online videos, and demonstrations are much easier, and the simpler we make the product, with the simplest web interface possible, for  the, for the simple members, but also an SHA access for those that really want to play with the Cgminer, you know with some more slashes and stuff, of course you will as well as well.

Me: So presuming you two (Sam and Andreas) are front of house...?

Sam: Pretty much...

Me: So how hands-on with customer service will you be with that in that case...how will you be able to cope with that?

Sam: We will be overseeing the teams that deal with the customer service underneath us.

Andreas: We...we have previous experience, not for the Bitcoin area, when it comes to support, but we have previous experience from the finance industry, from the IT industry when it err...takes how to handle support it in an efficient manner, and how to set-up support, so we can focus on the right things and give out information when it's needed.

Me: So, on the record, you are comfortable with support issue and you're going to do whatever you can?

Sam: We're going to scale towards it, yeah.

Me: Cool.

Sam: But...we're not going to sell a product so cheap that it attracts too many customers that we can't support.

Me: Yeah.

Sam: That...that's the important distinction. That we will target our customer support.

Andreas: We've got to think of our phone as well, if it's constantly calling about things that …

Marcus: But what can go wrong? Plug the ethernet in....

Me: Noo, don't, don't go jinxing yourself...you've got that on record now!

(General laughter)

Sam: We do...we do get questions like; “what is an ATX power supply?” So we do get questions that we need to answer at a basic level.

–




Mars Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgNPIY9L8s4&feature=youtu.be

Enjoy!

(Note: This has been freakin' exhausting!!)

[Bitcoinorama]

[pixl8tr]

Thanks for taking the time to write this up ... Very helpful.

[rini17]

Hey all, let's put bitcoins where our mouth is:

http://bitbet.us/bet/472/kncminer-will-deliver-asic-devices-before-october-1st/?ref=1EteoRKNYbNhhmFfsKnUSWRF3JUpKCcMnc

[Bitcoinorama]

Hey all, let's put bitcoins where our mouth is:

http://bitbet.us/bet/472/kncminer-will-deliver-asic-devices-before-october-1st/?ref=1EteoRKNYbNhhmFfsKnUSWRF3JUpKCcMnc

Rather some of you put your Bitcoins in my tip jar, ta!

[Biomech]

Hey all, let's put bitcoins where our mouth is:

http://bitbet.us/bet/472/kncminer-will-deliver-asic-devices-before-october-1st/?ref=1EteoRKNYbNhhmFfsKnUSWRF3JUpKCcMnc

Rather some of you put your Bitcoins in my tip jar, ta!

Tonight or tomorrow, from me :-)

Just unboxed my PC yesterday. My client is syncing. I love my tablet, but Android can be very limited at times.

[Bitcoinorama]

Cheers buddy! ^^

NOTE: I'm just repeating the tail end of that big post above, as scrolling past fast may mean you miss the Mars video link:

Mars Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgNPIY9L8s4&feature=youtu.be

Enjoy!

(Note: This has been freakin' exhausting!!)

[mandelmus]

Thanks for all your efforts Bitcoinorama, this is very valuable information

[Trongersoll]

Cheers buddy! ^^

NOTE: I'm just repeating the tail end of that big post above, as scrolling past fast may mean you miss the Mars video link:

Mars Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgNPIY9L8s4&feature=youtu.be

Enjoy!

(Note: This has been freakin' exhausting!!)

what was that?!?!?!? heh, i noticed that on the right hand side of the screen just above the temperature monitor it said "Organofcorti". what was that about?

[Korbman]

Thanks for all your efforts Bitcoinorama, this is very valuable information

I agree. Fantastic write-up as always Bitcoinorama! I was disappointed when I finished reading the post, simply because I wanted to know so much more. Is there any more info coming?

Hey all, let's put bitcoins where our mouth is:

http://bitbet.us/bet/472/kncminer-will-deliver-asic-devices-before-october-1st/?ref=1EteoRKNYbNhhmFfsKnUSWRF3JUpKCcMnc

You'd think people would learn how to phrase their bets after the fiasco with BetsOfBitcoin months ago...

[Bitcoinorama]

Cheers buddy! ^^

NOTE: I'm just repeating the tail end of that big post above, as scrolling past fast may mean you miss the Mars video link:

Mars Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgNPIY9L8s4&feature=youtu.be

Enjoy!

(Note: This has been freakin' exhausting!!)

what was that?!?!?!? heh, i noticed that on the right hand side of the screen just above the temperature monitor it said "Organofcorti". what was that about?

Don't know, swear i've seen that as a username in Bitcointalk though...

[Bitcoinorama]

Thanks for all your efforts Bitcoinorama, this is very valuable information

I agree. Fantastic write-up as always Bitcoinorama! I was disappointed when I finished reading the post, simply because I wanted to know so much more. Is there any more info coming?

My hands say no, in fact there is only one finger willing to move at the moment! (Joke!!...)

Man, give me some time to listen and digest the rest, there's loads of audio, no idea what it picks up after the Q&A, hence why I typed from memory in the first post of this thread.

I won't transcribe beyond the Q&A though, nooooo way!!! My finger's are burning!

If you want to bask in some more 'KnC Open-day' porn ,it was recorded in 1080p, so make-sure you have YouTube set to that, as it appears to have 360p standard.

[Trongersoll]

Cheers buddy! ^^

NOTE: I'm just repeating the tail end of that big post above, as scrolling past fast may mean you miss the Mars video link:

Mars Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgNPIY9L8s4&feature=youtu.be

Enjoy!

(Note: This has been freakin' exhausting!!)

what was that?!?!?!? heh, i noticed that on the right hand side of the screen just above the temperature monitor it said "Organofcorti". what was that about?

Don't know, swear i've seen that as a username in Bitcointalk though...

yeah, i see him in the slush pool thread. i wasn't implying anything, just curious since i recognised the name.

[Bitcoinorama]

Cheers buddy! ^^

NOTE: I'm just repeating the tail end of that big post above, as scrolling past fast may mean you miss the Mars video link:

Mars Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgNPIY9L8s4&feature=youtu.be

Enjoy!

(Note: This has been freakin' exhausting!!)

what was that?!?!?!? heh, i noticed that on the right hand side of the screen just above the temperature monitor it said "Organofcorti". what was that about?

Don't know, swear i've seen that as a username in Bitcointalk though...

yeah, i see him in the slush pool thread. i wasn't implying anything, just curious since i recognised the name.

Could be Daggeteo? Ask him...

[btceic]

Anybody else having issues playing the videos?

BitcoinOrama any chance you can upload the original to somewhere else?

[Bitcoinorama]

Anybody else having issues playing the videos?

BitcoinOrama any chance you can upload the original to somewhere else?

uh...what's the problem? Check the quality, perhaps yours is playing at 1080p as standard, and that's too high a resolution?

Otherwise name a place and i'll register and post it there tomo...the Mars one alone is 900meg!!

Vimeo?

[mandelmus]

Anybody else having issues playing the videos?

Works fine for me

[btceic]

Anybody else having issues playing the videos?

Works fine for me

My bad, I have my tube settings set to play high quality @ 1080, I set it to 360 and it is going well now.

[Bitcoinorama]

Anybody else having issues playing the videos?

Works fine for me

My bad, I have my tube settings set to play high quality @ 1080, I set it to 360 and it is going well now.

Figured, I had that issue first as well, still won't let me jump forward, and back in 1080p. Glad it worked out for you though!!

[btceic]

That box is surprisingly quiet

[mvidetto]

Anyone know if they're offering upgrades from saturn to jupiter and if so when and for how much?

[dwdoc]

Great report.  I hope their results match their confidence.

[dwdoc]

Anyone know if they're offering upgrades from saturn to jupiter and if so when and for how much?

As I understand it a Jupiter is just 2 Saturns stuck together. If upgrading from Saturn to Jupiter  is permitted, then what about upgrading from 1 to 2 Jupiters? I think this might be unfair to those who paid the full amount before the deadline, unless the upgraded order goes to the end of the queue. Thoughts?

ps-for full disclosure I have orders in for both types.

[Bitcoinorama]

Great report.  I hope their results match their confidence.

Well all I can say is they sell that confidence with total conviction in person, and they are genuinely smart. I also don't believe ORSoC play casino with their 10yr old company and name.

[Korbman]

I agree. Fantastic write-up as always Bitcoinorama! I was disappointed when I finished reading the post, simply because I wanted to know so much more. Is there any more info coming?

Man, give me some time to listen and digest the rest, there's loads of audio, no idea what it picks up after the Q&A, hence why I typed from memory in the first post of this thread.

I won't transcribe beyond the Q&A though, nooooo way!!! My finger's are burning!

Ha, by all means take a breather and rest. I was just wondering if I can look forward to more KnC OpenDay pr0n coming up in the next few days / week..which based on your statements means "yes".

[WillMilk4Coin]

Anyone know if they're offering upgrades from saturn to jupiter and if so when and for how much?

As I understand it a Jupiter is just 2 Saturns stuck together. If upgrading from Saturn to Jupiter  is permitted, then what about upgrading from 1 to 2 Jupiters? I think this might be unfair to those who paid the full amount before the deadline, unless the upgraded order goes to the end of the queue. Thoughts?
ps-for full disclosure I have orders in for both types.

KnC will allow for upgrades from Saturn to Jupiter while maintaining the place in queue, however, I am not aware if they'll allow the upgrade to additional units while keeping that place in line.

[johnyj]

I have not received any order payment confirmation email, only status paid showed on their website. Did anyone receive some kind of payment confirmation?

[KS]

Marcus: It's an FPGA, so you buy them off the shelf, you program them, we have proven the fastest design, possible, available is err...is running at 106ghMH/s, we get 130ghMH/s out of it. So obviously we redesign them to make them faster.

(snip)

Marcus: No, no. 48 divided by 306 multiplied by 106. Calculator. That's 5, 5.1.

FTFY^

edit: when they say they have the fastest design, do they mean "miner"? Bitfury is doing 300MH/s on a Spartan 6 (150). AFAIK *he* has the fastest design.

[Xialla]

I have not received any order payment confirmation email, only status paid showed on their website. Did anyone receive some kind of payment confirmation?

same here, they just changed status to "paid" on my account, nothing else..

[Rampion]

Please ask them if they already ordered the chips, if not how far are they to reach the minimum order goal.

This is crucial, any delay will be a big problem, they have a very tight schedule and tsmc is not going to hurry for any customer.

I hope KnC is not having any problem to manage and move the shitload of cash they have probably collected.

[mandelmus]

... If the "available units" on KNC's web are correct, that means that 1,000TH are still available. Considering the +150TH in Avalon chips, plus another 100TH by ASICMINER, and +400TH by BFL, that would take difficulty to at least to 200 million. Without even counting for Bitfury. ROI is going to be tough, guys. If there is someone so dumb to have asked for a loan to buy ASIC... He might better cancel his order, this is going to be a tough fight for peanuts - as mining has always been, apart from that small timeframe in which ASIC equipment supply was hyper-short, and the very lucky ones who had one unit took all the profits.

ref: http://www.bitcoinx.com/charts/

I'm trying to do some forecasting and risk analysis using the "bitcoin network vs. market linear, 30 days" charts and noticed that the "Mining Factor 100" (the USD per 24 hours at 100MHash/s) has dropped from 0.55 on May 21st to around 0.26 as of Jun 17th.  That's a drop of around 50% in 1 month ... and, that drop happened with existing ASICs (I'm guessing mostly due to ASICminer, a few avalons, and the BFL jalapenos).  At this rate, the "Mining Factor 100" could drop down to at least 0.13 by October.  Using those estimates, if KnC, BFL and others deliver by October, each 350GHash (Jupiter) miner, for example, will take, at minimum, well over 5 months to breakeven ... and, that's assuming a lot (i.e., the BTC/USD rates stay about where they are today, no new competitors, no new game-changing technology, no new ASICs added to the market, the difficulty level continues as it has over the last several months, etc.).  ... and, in order to earn the same in November 2013 as a Jupiter would earn today, I estimate that you will need to be mining with approximately 20 Jupiters by November.  Worse, if KnC can't deliver until November, the breakeven might not happen until well over 2 years later.  By March 2014, the Jupiter might be earning around 1 USD per day ... hhhmm.

In order to stay viable and profitable, it's really in our best interest to get everyone using Bitcoins: restaurants, websites, bit-tipping via cell phones, etc.  Just like paypal is everywhere, "Pay-with-Bitcoin" needs to be everywhere.  Over the past 5 months, when I've asked about 40 of my friends (in their 20s through 30s) if they had heard of bitcoins, only 2 said they had, but didn't understand it.  So, I'm guessing there's still plenty of opportunity for Bitcoin's growth.

@Bitcoinorama: Did KnC say they plan to release all 2000 ASICs to the market at relatively the same time or spread out over several weeks?

[mandelmus]

KnC will allow for upgrades from Saturn to Jupiter while maintaining the place in queue, however, I am not aware if they'll allow the upgrade to additional units while keeping that place in line.

Why all this talk about upgrades?  Is there an order cut-off date? 

Is there a minimum number of orders KnC needs to get started?

[sickpig]

ref: http://www.bitcoinx.com/charts/

I'm trying to do some forecasting and risk analysis using the "bitcoin network vs. market linear, 30 days" charts and noticed that the "Mining Factor 100" (the USD per 24 hours at 100MHash/s) has dropped from 0.55 on May 21st to around 0.26 as of Jun 17th.  That's a drop of around 50% in 1 month ... and, that drop happened with existing ASICs (I'm guessing mostly due to ASICminer, a few avalons, and the BFL jalapenos).  At this rate, the "Mining Factor 100" could drop down to at least 0.13 by October.  Using those estimates, if KnC, BFL and others deliver by October, each 350GHash (Jupiter) miner, for example, will take, at minimum, well over 5 months to breakeven ... and, that's assuming a lot (i.e., the BTC/USD rates stay about where they are today, no new competitors, no new game-changing technology, no new ASICs added to the market, the difficulty level continues as it has over the last several months, etc.).  ... and, in order to earn the same in November 2013 as a Jupiter would earn today, I estimate that you will need to be mining with approximately 20 Jupiters by November.  Worse, if KnC can't deliver until November, the breakeven might not happen until well over 2 years later.  By March 2014, the Jupiter might be earning around 1 USD per day ... hhhmm.

1 USD/day ?

Assuming a constant exchange rate of 100$ per BTC, you're talking about  0.01 BTC per day hence a bitcoin difficulty equals to 17.6 billion by March 2014. Am I missing something obvious ?

edit1:

just to make it a little bit more clear: to achieve 17.2 billion btc difficulty by the end of March you need a 29.7% constant growth rate every 11 days starting from now. I'm not saying it's impossible I am just trying to understand what OP is thinking.

[Bitcoinorama]

Ok, have an email from Marcus, correcting a few bits I made mistakes on. The mistakes were due to lousy audio in parts, as especially where the acronyms are concerned I kept replaying the audio at those parts and still got it wrong.

I'm going to to go back and fix the doc, but for those that have read it already, Marus sent me this at 7am;

======================================================


Marcus: No, no. 48 divided by 306. Calculator. That's 5, 5.1.

48 multiplied with 106GHash (original design) is 5.1, we wanted to show that we can run faster.

=======================================================

Marcus: They're FPGAs; Altera Stratix 4

(http://www.altera.com/devices/fpga/stratix-fpgas/stratix/stratix/stx-index.jsp)

They're FPGAs; Altera Cyclone 4

(http://www.altera.com/devices/fpga/cyclone-v-fpgas/cyv-index.jsp)

=======================================================

Marcus: Which we've already done...doing...yeah. I mean normal guys, dual ARM etc., etc. say you can never squeeze in exactly that ARM processor in the FPGA, so you will always have proportions of the design that you can't test in an FPGA, and that's when the risk goes up and you have to do a LBW...

"LBW" should be "MPW"  (Multi Project Wafer)

=======================================================

Marcus: Well it was more CGMiner...hiccup

Well it was more our CGMiner driver ....hiccup


=======================================================

Marcus: The second reason why it was that we needed something that can verify the ASIC code on, cos when...since we are going directly to ASIC and not the NPW, no prototypes from now...........


"NPW" should be "MPW"


--
______________________________________________

[dan99]

... If the "available units" on KNC's web are correct, that means that 1,000TH are still available. Considering the +150TH in Avalon chips, plus another 100TH by ASICMINER, and +400TH by BFL, that would take difficulty to at least to 200 million. Without even counting for Bitfury. ROI is going to be tough, guys. If there is someone so dumb to have asked for a loan to buy ASIC... He might better cancel his order, this is going to be a tough fight for peanuts - as mining has always been, apart from that small timeframe in which ASIC equipment supply was hyper-short, and the very lucky ones who had one unit took all the profits.

ref: http://www.bitcoinx.com/charts/

I'm trying to do some forecasting and risk analysis using the "bitcoin network vs. market linear, 30 days" charts and noticed that the "Mining Factor 100" (the USD per 24 hours at 100MHash/s) has dropped from 0.55 on May 21st to around 0.26 as of Jun 17th.  That's a drop of around 50% in 1 month ... and, that drop happened with existing ASICs (I'm guessing mostly due to ASICminer, a few avalons, and the BFL jalapenos).  At this rate, the "Mining Factor 100" could drop down to at least 0.13 by October.  Using those estimates, if KnC, BFL and others deliver by October, each 350GHash (Jupiter) miner, for example, will take, at minimum, well over 5 months to breakeven ... and, that's assuming a lot (i.e., the BTC/USD rates stay about where they are today, no new competitors, no new game-changing technology, no new ASICs added to the market, the difficulty level continues as it has over the last several months, etc.).  ... and, in order to earn the same in November 2013 as a Jupiter would earn today, I estimate that you will need to be mining with approximately 20 Jupiters by November.  Worse, if KnC can't deliver until November, the breakeven might not happen until well over 2 years later.  By March 2014, the Jupiter might be earning around 1 USD per day ... hhhmm.

In order to stay viable and profitable, it's really in our best interest to get everyone using Bitcoins: restaurants, websites, bit-tipping via cell phones, etc.  Just like paypal is everywhere, "Pay-with-Bitcoin" needs to be everywhere.  Over the past 5 months, when I've asked about 40 of my friends (in their 20s through 30s) if they had heard of bitcoins, only 2 said they had, but didn't understand it.  So, I'm guessing there's still plenty of opportunity for Bitcoin's growth.

@Bitcoinorama: Did KnC say they plan to release all 2000 ASICs to the market at relatively the same time or spread out over several weeks?

A street preacher with 18 posts ... how much credibility can he gets and out of the blue he comes here preaching, he probably would do the same last year before avalon launched their asic miner.

[Bitcoinorama]

Please ask them if they already ordered the chips, if not how far are they to reach the minimum order goal.

This is crucial, any delay will be a big problem, they have a very tight schedule and tsmc is not going to hurry for any customer.

I hope KnC is not having any problem to manage and move the shitload of cash they have probably collected.

As I said KnC mentioned some novel solutions I cannot repeat, certainly they have all other parts on standby and multiple manufacturers in case there is a fault with one, but I will ask if they have ordered chips...

[titomane]

If used Cyclone IV to Mars they told me. By saving costs.
Why Stratix now want to pass? I just hope that the order of the chips this and paid as of today.
Minimum is 12 weeks, this is second to third week in August

[J35st3r]

A street preacher with 18 posts ... how much credibility can he gets and out of the blue he comes here preaching, he probably would do the same last year before avalon launched their asic miner.

Ad hom. Play the ball, not the man 

[Bitcoinorama]

@Bitcoinorama: Did KnC say they plan to release all 2000 ASICs to the market at relatively the same time or spread out over several weeks?

They said they could feasibly ramp up production to the levels needed to cope with demand.

They said they could only sell products that gave their customers a return on investment and that; "We have a few things that we can do to make sure our customers get a return on investment."

Not sure if that answers your question, but that's alls i's got currently...

[KS]

Ok, have an email from Marcus, correcting a few bits I made mistakes on. The mistakes were due to lousy audio in parts, as especially where the acronyms are concerned I kept replaying the audio at those parts and still got it wrong.

I'm going to to go back and fix the doc, but for those that have read it already, Marus sent me this at 7am;

======================================================


Marcus: No, no. 48 divided by 306. Calculator. That's 5, 5.1.

48 multiplied with 106GHashMH/s (original design) is 5.1, we wanted to show that we can run faster.

=======================================================

Still not GH/s for the FPGAs, only MH/s.

48 x 106 MH/s ≃ 5.1 GH/s

[Bitcoinorama]

Ok, have an email from Marcus, correcting a few bits I made mistakes on. The mistakes were due to lousy audio in parts, as especially where the acronyms are concerned I kept replaying the audio at those parts and still got it wrong.

I'm going to to go back and fix the doc, but for those that have read it already, Marus sent me this at 7am;

======================================================


Marcus: No, no. 48 divided by 306. Calculator. That's 5, 5.1.

48 multiplied with 106GHashMH/s (original design) is 5.1, we wanted to show that we can run faster.

=======================================================

Still not GH/s for the FPGAs, only MH/s.

48 x 106 MH/s ≃ 5.1 GH/s

My bad then, sorry...

Fixed.

[Rampion]

If used Cyclone IV to Mars they told me. By saving costs.
Why Stratix now want to pass? I just hope that the order of the chips this and paid as of today.
Minimum is 12 weeks, this is second to third week in August

+1

They indeed said they would use Cyclone IV because it's more cost effective

Are they using Stratix now? Why?

Agreed on the chips lead time. The order should have been placed already.

[Bitcoinorama]

Cheers for the 0.1BTC whoever that was just now!

[KS]

If used Cyclone IV to Mars they told me. By saving costs.
Why Stratix now want to pass? I just hope that the order of the chips this and paid as of today.
Minimum is 12 weeks, this is second to third week in August

+1

They indeed said they would use Cyclone IV because it's more cost effective

Are they using Stratix now? Why?

Agreed on the chips lead time. The order should have been placed already.

Stratix lets them in on the HardCopy process. They could have chosen to go structured ASIC instead of standard cell, then standard cell. Either way they give the same code to Altera.
You can pretty much run the same code on a Stratix and Cyclone (slower).

[Bitcoinorama]

If used Cyclone IV to Mars they told me. By saving costs.
Why Stratix now want to pass? I just hope that the order of the chips this and paid as of today.
Minimum is 12 weeks, this is second to third week in August

+1

They indeed said they would use Cyclone IV because it's more cost effective

Are they using Stratix now? Why?

Agreed on the chips lead time. The order should have been placed already.

Stratix lets them in on the HardCopy process. They could have chosen to go structured ASIC instead of standard cell, then standard cell. Either way they give the same code to Altera.
You can pretty much run the same code on a Stratix and Cyclone (slower).

As they were going to sell Mars at such low cost to the consumer for the hardware there would have been an agreement in place for the chips to only be used for the one intended purpose. Altera would sell them at low cost per chip. The manufacturer (KnC in this case) would not be able to harvest the chips after to buy back, reuse, resell. Though nothing stopping the consumer from trying to remove the chips and resell on eBay, etc.

I presume the cyclone was just a better deal than the statix for a potential bulk buy, or maybe they had some FPGAs to build a proton with already that weren't e ones they would use in consumer units when tey put a big FPGA chip order in...bearing in mind they would always be in stock.

[Bitcoinorama]

Cheers buddy! ^^

NOTE: I'm just repeating the tail end of that big post above, as scrolling past fast may mean you miss the Mars video link:

Mars Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgNPIY9L8s4&feature=youtu.be

Enjoy!

(Note: This has been freakin' exhausting!!)

what was that?!?!?!? heh, i noticed that on the right hand side of the screen just above the temperature monitor it said "Organofcorti". what was that about?

Bam!: http://organofcorti.blogspot.be

Marcus said he keeps abreast of mining pool info...

[KS]

If used Cyclone IV to Mars they told me. By saving costs.
Why Stratix now want to pass? I just hope that the order of the chips this and paid as of today.
Minimum is 12 weeks, this is second to third week in August

+1

They indeed said they would use Cyclone IV because it's more cost effective

Are they using Stratix now? Why?

Agreed on the chips lead time. The order should have been placed already.

Stratix lets them in on the HardCopy process. They could have chosen to go structured ASIC instead of standard cell, then standard cell. Either way they give the same code to Altera.
You can pretty much run the same code on a Stratix and Cyclone (slower).

As they were going to sell Mars at such low cost to the consumer for the hardware there would have been an agreement in place for the chips to only be used for the one intended purpose. Altera would sell them at low cost per chip. The manufacturer (KnC in this case) would not be able to harvest the chips after to buy back, reuse, resell. Though nothing stopping the consumer from trying to remove the chips and resell on eBay, etc.

I presume the cyclone was just a better deal than the statix for a potential bulk buy, or maybe they had some FPGAs to build a proton with already that weren't e ones they would use in consumer units when tey put a big FPGA chip order in...bearing in mind they would always be in stock.

Stratix is not about the Mars, it's about the ASIC.

http://www.altera.com/products/software/flows/asic/qts-structured_asic.html

As I said though, the code produced by the Quartus II software can be run on another FPGA as well, with little to no modification. The Cyclone being much cheaper than the Stratix, it makes sense not to use the Stratix for a miner with less margin and no future.

[KS]

Cheers buddy! ^^

NOTE: I'm just repeating the tail end of that big post above, as scrolling past fast may mean you miss the Mars video link:

Mars Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgNPIY9L8s4&feature=youtu.be

Enjoy!

(Note: This has been freakin' exhausting!!)

what was that?!?!?!? heh, i noticed that on the right hand side of the screen just above the temperature monitor it said "Organofcorti". what was that about?

Bam!: http://organofcorti.blogspot.be

Marcus said he keeps abreast of mining pool info...

I'll PM him to let him know he's been found

[titomane]

If used Cyclone IV to Mars they told me. By saving costs.
Why Stratix now want to pass? I just hope that the order of the chips this and paid as of today.
Minimum is 12 weeks, this is second to third week in August

+1

They indeed said they would use Cyclone IV because it's more cost effective

Are they using Stratix now? Why?

Agreed on the chips lead time. The order should have been placed already.

Stratix lets them in on the HardCopy process. They could have chosen to go structured ASIC instead of standard cell, then standard cell. Either way they give the same code to Altera.
You can pretty much run the same code on a Stratix and Cyclone (slower).

As they were going to sell Mars at such low cost to the consumer for the hardware there would have been an agreement in place for the chips to only be used for the one intended purpose. Altera would sell them at low cost per chip. The manufacturer (KnC in this case) would not be able to harvest the chips after to buy back, reuse, resell. Though nothing stopping the consumer from trying to remove the chips and resell on eBay, etc.

I presume the cyclone was just a better deal than the statix for a potential bulk buy, or maybe they had some FPGAs to build a proton with already that weren't e ones they would use in consumer units when tey put a big FPGA chip order in...bearing in mind they would always be in stock.

Stratix is not about the Mars, it's about the ASIC.

http://www.altera.com/products/software/flows/asic/qts-structured_asic.html

As I said though, the code produced by the Quartus II software can be run on another FPGA as well, with little to no modification. The Cyclone being much cheaper than the Stratix, it makes sense not to use the Stratix for a miner with less margin and no future.

It seems correct explanation,  when I went to ORsoc. I ask Marcus and Sam (besides many other questions of course):
Why not use Stratix? And be able to use Hardcopy V?
They replied by costs.
If you believe that using hardcopy, Asic delivery will be sooner. Not for me to say they are wrong.
But that day should have thought that chip to use.

[KS]

If used Cyclone IV to Mars they told me. By saving costs.
Why Stratix now want to pass? I just hope that the order of the chips this and paid as of today.
Minimum is 12 weeks, this is second to third week in August

+1

They indeed said they would use Cyclone IV because it's more cost effective

Are they using Stratix now? Why?

Agreed on the chips lead time. The order should have been placed already.

Stratix lets them in on the HardCopy process. They could have chosen to go structured ASIC instead of standard cell, then standard cell. Either way they give the same code to Altera.
You can pretty much run the same code on a Stratix and Cyclone (slower).

As they were going to sell Mars at such low cost to the consumer for the hardware there would have been an agreement in place for the chips to only be used for the one intended purpose. Altera would sell them at low cost per chip. The manufacturer (KnC in this case) would not be able to harvest the chips after to buy back, reuse, resell. Though nothing stopping the consumer from trying to remove the chips and resell on eBay, etc.

I presume the cyclone was just a better deal than the statix for a potential bulk buy, or maybe they had some FPGAs to build a proton with already that weren't e ones they would use in consumer units when tey put a big FPGA chip order in...bearing in mind they would always be in stock.

Stratix is not about the Mars, it's about the ASIC.

http://www.altera.com/products/software/flows/asic/qts-structured_asic.html

As I said though, the code produced by the Quartus II software can be run on another FPGA as well, with little to no modification. The Cyclone being much cheaper than the Stratix, it makes sense not to use the Stratix for a miner with less margin and no future.

It seems correct explanation,  when I went to ORsoc. I ask Marcus and Sam (besides many other questions of course):
Why not use Stratix? And be able to use Hardcopy V?
They replied by costs.
If you believe that using hardcopy, Asic delivery will be sooner. Not for me to say they are wrong.
But that day should have thought that chip to use.

It's two different things.

Using the Altera design flow, they can choose to produce a HardCopy (structured ASIC or FPGA "ROM" if you like) which takes less time to fab than a standard cell ASIC.

But they can ALSO chose to make a standard cell ASIC, from the SAME code (takes longer than structured ASIC/HardCopy).

And better yet, that code ALSO runs on other Altera FPGAs.

So, with that process, they could have shipped an FPGA "today", a HardCopy in a few weeks and the full ASIC a bit later still. They chose to skip steps 1 and 2, that's why you won't have anything to mine with until the ASICs are out.

[Rampion]

It's two different things.

Using the Altera design flow, they can choose to produce a HardCopy (structured ASIC or FPGA "ROM" if you like) which takes less time to fab than a standard cell ASIC.

But they can ALSO chose to make a standard cell ASIC, from the SAME code (takes longer than structured ASIC/HardCopy).

And better yet, that code ALSO runs on other Altera FPGAs.

So, with that process, they could have shipped an FPGA "today", a HardCopy in a few weeks and the full ASIC a bit later still. They chose to skip steps 1 and 2, that's why you won't have anything to mine with until the ASICs are out.

Curiosity: what's your final position on KnC? Did you finally pre-ordered?

[titomane]

It's two different things.

Using the Altera design flow, they can choose to produce a HardCopy (structured ASIC or FPGA "ROM" if you like) which takes less time to fab than a standard cell ASIC.

But they can ALSO chose to make a standard cell ASIC, from the SAME code (takes longer than structured ASIC/HardCopy).

And better yet, that code ALSO runs on other Altera FPGAs.

So, with that process, they could have shipped an FPGA "today", a HardCopy in a few weeks and the full ASIC a bit later still. They chose to skip steps 1 and 2, that's why you won't have anything to mine with until the ASICs are out.

Curiosity: what's your final position on KnC? Did you finally pre-ordered?

It seems he has some Jupiter preorder.
Who would have said 2-3 weeks ago. jajajaa

[merv77]

new news https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-21 sponsoring 'Life on Bitcoin' doco
very nice of KnC

[titomane]

new news https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-21 sponsoring 'Life on Bitcoin' doco
very nice of KnC

This guarantees delivery of Jupiter between July 2013 and summer 2014. jajaja

[KS]

It's two different things.

Using the Altera design flow, they can choose to produce a HardCopy (structured ASIC or FPGA "ROM" if you like) which takes less time to fab than a standard cell ASIC.

But they can ALSO chose to make a standard cell ASIC, from the SAME code (takes longer than structured ASIC/HardCopy).

And better yet, that code ALSO runs on other Altera FPGAs.

So, with that process, they could have shipped an FPGA "today", a HardCopy in a few weeks and the full ASIC a bit later still. They chose to skip steps 1 and 2, that's why you won't have anything to mine with until the ASICs are out.

Curiosity: what's your final position on KnC? Did you finally pre-ordered?

It seems he has some Jupiter preorder.
Who would have said 2-3 weeks ago. jajajaa

I do? 

[Bitcoinorama]

It's two different things.

Using the Altera design flow, they can choose to produce a HardCopy (structured ASIC or FPGA "ROM" if you like) which takes less time to fab than a standard cell ASIC.

But they can ALSO chose to make a standard cell ASIC, from the SAME code (takes longer than structured ASIC/HardCopy).

And better yet, that code ALSO runs on other Altera FPGAs.

So, with that process, they could have shipped an FPGA "today", a HardCopy in a few weeks and the full ASIC a bit later still. They chose to skip steps 1 and 2, that's why you won't have anything to mine with until the ASICs are out.

Curiosity: what's your final position on KnC? Did you finally pre-ordered?

It seems he has some Jupiter preorder.
Who would have said 2-3 weeks ago. jajajaa

I do?  

KS certainly has a large interest in bulk Avalon and had spoken about almost dropping $30k on BFL Mini-rig.

So if he has $30k tied up in DIY monies I can understand him being anxious for long-term, but he should be fine short-term as long as he has bought from trustable vendors and not used debt to purchase.

There's risk on any player, you just try to make educated choices based on informed opinion am take a choice that fits your comfort level. None of which can prepare you for future BTC price when miners drop coins to cover ROI's at the same time!

There is no malice what I've just written, I want to see no one lose money, actually the total opposite. Party's getting crowded, but most of the world are clueless to it...I'm just enjoying the engineering race!!

[KS]

It's two different things.

Using the Altera design flow, they can choose to produce a HardCopy (structured ASIC or FPGA "ROM" if you like) which takes less time to fab than a standard cell ASIC.

But they can ALSO chose to make a standard cell ASIC, from the SAME code (takes longer than structured ASIC/HardCopy).

And better yet, that code ALSO runs on other Altera FPGAs.

So, with that process, they could have shipped an FPGA "today", a HardCopy in a few weeks and the full ASIC a bit later still. They chose to skip steps 1 and 2, that's why you won't have anything to mine with until the ASICs are out.

Curiosity: what's your final position on KnC? Did you finally pre-ordered?

My position is they are full of it. Everyone is so focused on the tech/money side they completely ignore the crap that comes out of that company. Amazing.

I give your the equity=gov tax or first ever TierV datacenter as small tidbits. Oh and the 30% improvement on the mining algo.

[KS]

It's two different things.

Using the Altera design flow, they can choose to produce a HardCopy (structured ASIC or FPGA "ROM" if you like) which takes less time to fab than a standard cell ASIC.

But they can ALSO chose to make a standard cell ASIC, from the SAME code (takes longer than structured ASIC/HardCopy).

And better yet, that code ALSO runs on other Altera FPGAs.

So, with that process, they could have shipped an FPGA "today", a HardCopy in a few weeks and the full ASIC a bit later still. They chose to skip steps 1 and 2, that's why you won't have anything to mine with until the ASICs are out.

Curiosity: what's your final position on KnC? Did you finally pre-ordered?

It seems he has some Jupiter preorder.
Who would have said 2-3 weeks ago. jajajaa

I do?  

KS certainly has a large interest in bulk Avalon and had spoken about almost dropping $30k on BFL Mini-rig.

So if he has $30k tied up in DIY monies I can understand him being anxious for long-term, but he should be fine short-term as long as he has bought from trustable vendors and not used debt to purchase.

There is no malice what I've just written, I want to see no one lose money, actually the total opposite. Parties getting crowded, but most of the world are clueless to it...

Right...

If KNCMINER wasn't making stupid comments like I just quoted Rampion, I would have considered them. Alas, they're just professional wannabes. I'm still on the fence regarding ORSoC (not the tech part), and I highly dislike the use of shills for self promotion. Have never seen so many, even on any other scammer thread, save for KNCMINER. That's another minus for them.

[bobsmoke]

More news : https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-21

[Bitcoinorama]

It's two different things.

Using the Altera design flow, they can choose to produce a HardCopy (structured ASIC or FPGA "ROM" if you like) which takes less time to fab than a standard cell ASIC.

But they can ALSO chose to make a standard cell ASIC, from the SAME code (takes longer than structured ASIC/HardCopy).

And better yet, that code ALSO runs on other Altera FPGAs.

So, with that process, they could have shipped an FPGA "today", a HardCopy in a few weeks and the full ASIC a bit later still. They chose to skip steps 1 and 2, that's why you won't have anything to mine with until the ASICs are out.

Curiosity: what's your final position on KnC? Did you finally pre-ordered?

It seems he has some Jupiter preorder.
Who would have said 2-3 weeks ago. jajajaa

I do?  

KS certainly has a large interest in bulk Avalon and had spoken about almost dropping $30k on BFL Mini-rig.

So if he has $30k tied up in DIY monies I can understand him being anxious for long-term, but he should be fine short-term as long as he has bought from trustable vendors and not used debt to purchase.

There is no malice what I've just written, I want to see no one lose money, actually the total opposite. Parties getting crowded, but most of the world are clueless to it...

Right...

If KNCMINER wasn't making stupid comments like I just quoted Rampion, I would have considered them. Alas, they're just professional wannabes. I'm still on the fence regarding ORSoC (not the tech part), and I highly dislike the use of shills for self promotion. Have never seen so many, even on any other scammer thread, save for KNCMINER. That's another minus for them.

Please do continue, I presume you are suggesting I'm a shill? Just call me on it please, if that's the case.

I mean aside the fact I went in person and several other members can vouch for me...

I offered to ask any question you wanted, was pretty thorough with my analysis and the door is always open for yourself to go in person. I recommend anyone does if you're considering potentially risking more moeny than a flight...there's worse places to fruitlessly check out than Stockholm otherwise.

[titomane]

I work for KNC.  They pay me 1 Saturn for every witty remark. 1 jupiter for each positive comment KNC

[KS]

It's two different things.

Using the Altera design flow, they can choose to produce a HardCopy (structured ASIC or FPGA "ROM" if you like) which takes less time to fab than a standard cell ASIC.

But they can ALSO chose to make a standard cell ASIC, from the SAME code (takes longer than structured ASIC/HardCopy).

And better yet, that code ALSO runs on other Altera FPGAs.

So, with that process, they could have shipped an FPGA "today", a HardCopy in a few weeks and the full ASIC a bit later still. They chose to skip steps 1 and 2, that's why you won't have anything to mine with until the ASICs are out.

Curiosity: what's your final position on KnC? Did you finally pre-ordered?

It seems he has some Jupiter preorder.
Who would have said 2-3 weeks ago. jajajaa

I do?  

KS certainly has a large interest in bulk Avalon and had spoken about almost dropping $30k on BFL Mini-rig.

So if he has $30k tied up in DIY monies I can understand him being anxious for long-term, but he should be fine short-term as long as he has bought from trustable vendors and not used debt to purchase.

There is no malice what I've just written, I want to see no one lose money, actually the total opposite. Parties getting crowded, but most of the world are clueless to it...

Right...

If KNCMINER wasn't making stupid comments like I just quoted Rampion, I would have considered them. Alas, they're just professional wannabes. I'm still on the fence regarding ORSoC (not the tech part), and I highly dislike the use of shills for self promotion. Have never seen so many, even on any other scammer thread, save for KNCMINER. That's another minus for them.

Please do continue, I presume you are suggesting I'm a shill? Just call me on it please, if that's the case.

I mean aside the fact I went in person and several other members can vouch for me...

I offered to ask any question you wanted, was pretty thorough with my analysis and the door is always open for yourself to go in person. I recommend anyone does if you're considering potentially risking more moeny than a flight...there's worse places to fruitlessly check out than Stockholm otherwise.

Apart from you. Besides, if you are a shill, going to Sweden doesn't really disprove anything

I'm still curious to know whether you actually paid for the Jupiter you have on order. You've been evading that question, for possibly weeks. This is not helping to disprove your "shilliness" either.

I'm only riding you because you basically harangue ppl to go for KNCMINER while not showing the same monetary commitment. But I told you that already. (your argument of not spending more than they can afford to lose is kind of moot, you're still pushing them and attacking everyone who is not pro KNCMINER).

I'm just looking at the facts and debunking the BS that comes out. I think ppl made a bad investment in KNCMINER but, as I said a number of times (must be old age, keep repeating myself), the train has left the station and KNCMINER has received the money. Pre-order game over.

If they work as professionals and stop the bullshitting, I will revise my opinion. ITM, why don't you let their BS be exposed and not try to find every possible excuse for them?

[KS]

I work for KNC.  They pay me 1 Saturn for every witty remark. 1 jupiter for each positive comment KNC

See? I knew it! 

 

[Bitcoinorama]

It's two different things.

Using the Altera design flow, they can choose to produce a HardCopy (structured ASIC or FPGA "ROM" if you like) which takes less time to fab than a standard cell ASIC.

But they can ALSO chose to make a standard cell ASIC, from the SAME code (takes longer than structured ASIC/HardCopy).

And better yet, that code ALSO runs on other Altera FPGAs.

So, with that process, they could have shipped an FPGA "today", a HardCopy in a few weeks and the full ASIC a bit later still. They chose to skip steps 1 and 2, that's why you won't have anything to mine with until the ASICs are out.

Curiosity: what's your final position on KnC? Did you finally pre-ordered?

It seems he has some Jupiter preorder.
Who would have said 2-3 weeks ago. jajajaa

I do?  

KS certainly has a large interest in bulk Avalon and had spoken about almost dropping $30k on BFL Mini-rig.

So if he has $30k tied up in DIY monies I can understand him being anxious for long-term, but he should be fine short-term as long as he has bought from trustable vendors and not used debt to purchase.

There is no malice what I've just written, I want to see no one lose money, actually the total opposite. Parties getting crowded, but most of the world are clueless to it...

Right...

If KNCMINER wasn't making stupid comments like I just quoted Rampion, I would have considered them. Alas, they're just professional wannabes. I'm still on the fence regarding ORSoC (not the tech part), and I highly dislike the use of shills for self promotion. Have never seen so many, even on any other scammer thread, save for KNCMINER. That's another minus for them.

Please do continue, I presume you are suggesting I'm a shill? Just call me on it please, if that's the case.

I mean aside the fact I went in person and several other members can vouch for me...

I offered to ask any question you wanted, was pretty thorough with my analysis and the door is always open for yourself to go in person. I recommend anyone does if you're considering potentially risking more moeny than a flight...there's worse places to fruitlessly check out than Stockholm otherwise.

Apart from you. Besides, if you are a shill, going to Sweden doesn't really disprove anything

I'm still curious to know whether you actually paid for the Jupiter you have on order. You've been evading that question, for possibly weeks. This is not helping to disprove your "shilliness" either.

I'm only riding you because you basically harangue ppl to go for KNCMINER while not showing the same monetary commitment. But I told you that already. (your argument of not spending more than they can afford to lose is kind of moot, you're still pushing them and attacking everyone who is not pro KNCMINER).

I'm just looking at the facts and debunking the BS that comes out. I think ppl made a bad investment in KNCMINER but, as I said a number of times (must be old age, keep repeating myself), the train has left the station and KNCMINER has received the money. Pre-order game over.

If they work as professionals and stop the bullshitting, I will revise my opinion. ITM, why don't you let their BS be exposed and not try to find every possible excuse for them?

I'm not going to claim my interest in going out there was solely purchasing mining products. As I've said on a few occasions I studied my masters in Engineering Design, which is what this is; a high pressure, just in time manufacture, so I have a solid interest there. I also want to be involved in Bitcoin (well specifically crypto-currency) over the long term. So I went to check them out as an engineering design firm for myself for potential employment as well as my own investment. This is a burgeoning industry that is here to stay, regardless of whether Bitcoin does or doesn't.

I know I've talked up KnC and ORSoC, based on research as I have uncovered it. They are a legitimate design firm, I know what to look for in that and they are definitely not out to steal people's money. Whether they can deliver without a hitch, which will be jaw dropping, as nothing I've ever designed has gone sole rely smoothly, remains to be seen. They have big balls, I will give them that. If they succeed in this, KnC, and ORSoC will gain a fantastic reputation. Why wouldn't I want to be involved in that? That said, I have never ever advised anyone do anything other than do their own research, find a secure means of payment to pay by and go in person themselves to see what they're about.

I totally felt the responsibility of creating a report as thorough as possible, after being so positive about them prior, but I'm not currently under their employment, I've not been paid anything, either cash or promise as you allude to and I did my best to remain impartial throughout questioning and get some answers people really wanted to hear. I genuinely did my best for everyone. I have no sinister underlying motive.

The sponsoring of the film was something I suggested to them last week as it broke press in the States. I saw it as a wise and low cost/ big impact marketing move as one of Sam's concerns about risk was the need to push Bitcoin for mainstream adoption. The film idea ticked all those boxes and I forwarded the Kickstarter page. Fri or Sat I think. Sam said he liked the idea, but I'm as surprised as anyone else that they've actually gone for it. It's a shrewd move if you want legitimacy.

[Bagpipe]

Well, thanks. Finally someone who knows how to design an MCM properly. Bad luck I did not submit any questions. I guess only organic substrates for MCMs are of interest today, the old-era ceramic ones are good, but not even ATi or nVidia uses them...
Ah well. As for the burn-in, can they allow some users to opt-in for the burn-in? I would like to receive my unit sooner than the others ;-)

and KS, I appreciate your input, but I also have to admit that being dysloectic is a serios illnes (Sam Cole as an example).

[Rampion]

Bitcoinorama, no harsh feelings: did you receive a free unit or not?

I guess if they offered it to you they would have asked for you to not disclose the fact, so let's keep it simple for everybody: if they indeed gave you a free unit, just ignore this post. If they didn't, just reply: "no, I was never given or promised a free unit"

[Bitcoinorama]

Well, thanks. Finally someone who knows how to design an MCM properly. Bad luck I did not submit any questions. I guess only organic substrates for MCMs are of interest today, the old-era ceramic ones are good, but not even ATi or nVidia uses them...
Ah well. As for the burn-in, can they allow some users to opt-in for the burn-in? I would like to receive my unit sooner than the others ;-)

and KS, I appreciate your input, but I also have to admit that being dysloectic is a serios illnes (Sam Cole as an example).

When were at the open-day the burn ins mentioned I think we're only 10 minutes and may even be to your wallet. I was surprised at the time at how short they said they would be, I assumed you need to test for long-term usage. Perhaps it was 10 hours then, but certainly wasn't days. I'm sure it's on the audio somewhere.

[Bitcoinorama]

Bitcoinorama, no harsh feelings: did you receive a free unit or not?

I guess if they offered it to you they would have asked for you to not disclose the fact, so let's keep it simple for everybody: if they indeed gave you a free unit, just ignore this post. If they didn't, just reply: "no, I was never given or promised a free unit"

I certainly asked them not to ship any early devices to media, bloggers, etc. over real customers, like BFL did. I said community reaction and confidence alone would propel such positive results to be newsworthy in it's own right, especially with the story KnC will have if they actually deliver on rime. Sam said they would rather give units out to valuable members of the community such as devs, etc...whether I'm part of that I don't know. I know I've been helpful, but that's not why I have been, and that's not why I went there. My research was self-motivated and for my own reasons, but whilst I was doing it There's no harm in sharing it. I was looking for the first legitimate engineering firm(s) as a contender(s), and I found it. In addition, like the previous attendees said they had strong praise for Phinneaus Gage, as despite his determination to prove them a scam, he actually uncovered a lot that was useful for potential investors to know about their backgrounds and his intentions to bust scam companies, were evenly distributed, regardless of the thread, so he had no particular malice serviced towards them, and they respected that.

I also liked the look of Terrahash, purely as a DIY underdog, but now they have opened books and only just shown an order for 10k chips, claiming they have 20k on order, that equals 15.6666 fully loaded Terrahash DX Large's @ 180 Gh/s, which means they have just taken an obscenely large amount of orders (still rising) they cannot currently accommodate chips for...still they accept Paypal, and thus credit card.

[dwangoac]

Bitcoinorama, no harsh feelings: did you receive a free unit or not?

I guess if they offered it to you they would have asked for you to not disclose the fact, so let's keep it simple for everybody: if they indeed gave you a free unit, just ignore this post. If they didn't, just reply: "no, I was never given or promised a free unit"

I certainly asked them not to ship any early devices to media, bloggers, etc. over real customers, like BFL did.

I, like many others, greatly appreciate your report and the time you have invested into it.  Can you please answer Rampion's question with a yes or no answer?  Did you receive a free or discounted KNC unit of any kind for any reason from any source, or a promise of the same?

Your credibility and transparency will be rewarded.   Just curious,

A.C.
******

[Rampion]

Bitcoinorama, no harsh feelings: did you receive a free unit or not?

I guess if they offered it to you they would have asked for you to not disclose the fact, so let's keep it simple for everybody: if they indeed gave you a free unit, just ignore this post. If they didn't, just reply: "no, I was never given or promised a free unit"

I certainly asked them not to ship any early devices to media, bloggers, etc. over real customers, like BFL did.

I, like many others, greatly appreciate your report and the time you have invested into it.  Can you please answer Rampion's question with a yes or no answer?  Did you receive a free or discounted KNC unit of any kind for any reason from any source, or a promise of the same?

Your credibility and transparency will be rewarded.   Just curious,

A.C.
******

He answered not answering. Not everything has to be confirmed in public, he has no obligation for that - just factor everything on the analysis that leads to your own conclusion.

I'd like to add that IMO Bitcoinorama posted tons of valuable info for the whole community, and regardless of seeming a little "fanboy" or overenthusiastic at some times the videos and transcriptions are valuable, and both the questions provided by the community and kNC answers have been faithfully transmitted.

[dwangoac]

He answered not answering. Not everything has to be confirmed in public, he has no obligation for that - just factor everything on the analysis that leads to your own conclusion.

I'd like to add that IMO Bitcoinorama posted tons of valuable info for the whole community, and regardless of seeming a little "fanboy" or overenthusiastic at some times the videos and transcriptions are valuable, and both the questions provided by the community and kNC answers have been faithfully transmitted.

In that case, simply saying "I would prefer not to answer that question at this time." or "No comment." would be great too.

I possibly sounded more harsh than I intended to; I agree with you that Bitcoinorama has posted incredibly valuable information and regardless of the motivation I appreciate the depth of the effort.  I'm perhaps over-reacting as a result of observing disasters from other companies unfolding.  If I stepped on any toes, I apologize.

Thanks again,

A.C.
******

[Bitcoinorama]

Gee Whizz please people don't provide answers for me, I'm capable of speaking for myself, but I feel this does back me into a corner i'm not comfortable with.

As far as I know, no one has been given freebies, aside that married couple for the film, which is a stroke of genius.

There was talk at the openday that they wanted to reward 'members of the community', and by that I believe they mean the community at large, we spoke of devs, etc. All those in attendance were present for this. There was a mention of putting a vote out in the forum, but it's really not my place to be commenting on that, as I can't remember whether that is on or off record, so I won't go into further specifics, lots of ideas were thrown around.  I certainly don't want to be on record saying this, or that and inadvertently cast myself outside of any runnings, as straight-up if there is anything offered at a later date, I'm not stupid, I wouldn't turn it down, neither would I want to feel pressured to do so. Likewise no one should feel under pressure to reward me anything.  I did what I did out of my own free choice, admittedly I shared info, but the intentions were somewhat selfish in that I was researching a mining company to invest in their product, and stumbled across a legitimate talented engineering firm that sparked further academic/professional interest aside buying a product. As I said above, I have not been paid for my time, i'm not under any employment, but I definitely liked what and who I saw when I went there, as unanimously did everyone else. I certainly did take my CV with me just in case.

The only thing I feel comfortable sharing here is my thoughts in that this product, if it works, and they deliver on time will sell itself, fact. It will provide an epic newsworthy story, fact. There is no need to comp incompetent journalism like BFL did. BFL's money printing machine that kept them in favour with certain press was a very superficial ploy. It drove them tonnes of unsophisticated Bitcoin wannabe investors that they now cannot handle. Both Wired and Arts Technica's stories surrounding the subject were grossly unresearched and showed a complete lack of understanding of both Bitcoin and mining. Regardless the purpose of both publications is to bring tech related news, and if they don't feel a genuine contender to the Bitcoin ASIC mining fraternity is relevant tech news without bribery then they are doing themselves, and their readership, a disservice. If they want to get their hands on products to review, my feeling is they should either cozy up to someone they know with a pre-order, or join the queue themselves. Assisting a film that intends to spread the word on Bitcoin acceptance, makes far more sense to me, and will do far more for ensuring mining is distributed and in the hands of the normal people. It was a stroke of good fortune, more than anything else that I happened to be pinged relevant news about the Kickstarter project. I have Google set up to alert me on Bitcoin news and I leapt on that when I saw it as it's a fantastic opportunity for all involved. More than anything the couple are animated, motivated to do this, whilst relaxed on camera, and appear like genuine characters with mainstream appeal. Giving those two a Jupiter as a 'wedding present' to use on their eccentric 90-day 'honeymoon' is well worth it to help stabalise the Bitcoin price and generate a buzz around local and global public BTC acceptance. It's a no brainer, and most importantly the couple get a fantastic adventure out of it. It's potentially a beautiful story in it's own right. I say good luck to them.

[blastbob]

Go Bitcoinorama, just smile and wave, smile and wave.

There will be some bagholders soon..

[Bitcoinorama]

Monster!!...https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=237710.msg2514804#msg2514804

[idee2013]

@ Bitcoinrama: Do not  put yourself under pressure by anybody. You have done a very good job for the most of us here....whatever KNC will do in the future...

[Rampion]

Ok, so you were not given a freebie but you are kinda *hoping* for one that may or may not arrive.

 

[titomane]

Monster!!...https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=237710.msg2514804#msg2514804

Awesome farm

[KS]

Gee Whizz please people don't provide answers for me, I'm capable of speaking for myself, but I feel this does back me into a corner i'm not comfortable with.

As far as I know, no one has been given freebies, aside that married couple for the film, which is a stroke of genius.

There was talk at the openday that they wanted to reward 'members of the community', and by that I believe they mean the community at large, we spoke of devs, etc. All those in attendance were present for this. There was a mention of putting a vote out in the forum, but it's really not my place to be commenting on that, as I can't remember whether that is on or off record, so I won't go into further specifics, lots of ideas were thrown around.  I certainly don't want to be on record saying this, or that and inadvertently cast myself outside of any runnings, as straight-up if there is anything offered at a later date, I'm not stupid, I wouldn't turn it down, neither would I want to feel pressured to do so. Likewise no one should feel under pressure to reward me anything.  I did what I did out of my own free choice, admittedly I shared info, but the intentions were somewhat selfish in that I was researching a mining company to invest in their product, and stumbled across a legitimate talented engineering firm that sparked further academic/professional interest aside buying a product. As I said above, I have not been paid for my time, i'm not under any employment, but I definitely liked what and who I saw when I went there, as unanimously did everyone else. I certainly did take my CV with me just in case.

The only thing I feel comfortable sharing here is my thoughts in that this product, if it works, and they deliver on time will sell itself, fact. It will provide an epic newsworthy story, fact. There is no need to comp incompetent journalism like BFL did. BFL's money printing machine that kept them in favour with certain press was a very superficial ploy. It drove them tonnes of unsophisticated Bitcoin wannabe investors that they now cannot handle. Both Wired and Arts Technica's stories surrounding the subject were grossly unresearched and showed a complete lack of understanding of both Bitcoin and mining. Regardless the purpose of both publications is to bring tech related news, and if they don't feel a genuine contender to the Bitcoin ASIC mining fraternity is relevant tech news without bribery then they are doing themselves, and their readership, a disservice. If they want to get their hands on products to review, my feeling is they should either cozy up to someone they know with a pre-order, or join the queue themselves. Assisting a film that intends to spread the word on Bitcoin acceptance, makes far more sense to me, and will do far more for ensuring mining is distributed and in the hands of the normal people. It was a stroke of good fortune, more than anything else that I happened to be pinged relevant news about the Kickstarter project. I have Google set up to alert me on Bitcoin news and I leapt on that when I saw it as it's a fantastic opportunity for all involved. More than anything the couple are animated, motivated to do this, whilst relaxed on camera, and appear like genuine characters with mainstream appeal. Giving those two a Jupiter as a 'wedding present' to use on their eccentric 90-day 'honeymoon' is well worth it to help stabalise the Bitcoin price and generate a buzz around local and global public BTC acceptance. It's a no brainer, and most importantly the couple get a fantastic adventure out of it. It's potentially a beautiful story in it's own right. I say good luck to them.

You should start putting those factlets in your sig. "want to work for KNCMINER, expecting to receive a free Jupiter".

No matter the criticism I can throw your way, I still appreciate the reports. I wish your prose were less biased though, they're still selling vaporware after all.

[dhenson]

The sponsoring of the film was something I suggested to them last week as it broke press in the States. I saw it as a wise and low cost/ big impact marketing move as one of Sam's concerns about risk was the need to push Bitcoin for mainstream adoption. The film idea ticked all those boxes and I forwarded the Kickstarter page. Fri or Sat I think. Sam said he liked the idea, but I'm as surprised as anyone else that they've actually gone for it. It's a shrewd move if you want legitimacy.

Great idea, I feel you have done the entire bitcoin community a great service with this suggestion (assuming KnC pulls through and delivers on time).

You sir have earned a couple of beers on me.  Hopefully you find a Swedish hottie to drink them with.
https://blockchain.info/tx/d91071418b26db238e55a237b8337e93434868b22e057b06be19367840fc268a

edit.. link fixed

[KS]

and KS, I appreciate your input, but I also have to admit that being dysloectic is a serios illnes (Sam Cole as an example).

That's news to me. Maybe he shouldn't be in charge of public relations or s.o. should double check what he says/writes. And that still does not preclude them from NOT making false claims or misrepresent themselves (as in the K&C as KNCMINER company presentation to later incorporate KNCMINER in a separate company and falsely advertising a private website as a Gov one).

[Bitcoinorama]

You should start putting those factlets in your sig. "want to work for KNCMINER, expecting to receive a free Jupiter".

No matter the criticism I can throw your way, I still appreciate the reports. I wish your prose were less biased though, they're still selling vaporware after all.

This is my point; I'm not expecting anything. Why are people putting words in my mouth just to satisfy their own point of view? If I end up working for them, or any crypto-engineering hardware company I would clearly state my allegiance, a sig would prob be a sensible place, but whilst I had my expectations before visiting, based on research conducted along the way which made me optimistic, I certainly wasn't about to loose my head. I'd like to think I still remained unbiased and balanced in the way I conducted the questioning.  Certainly didn't accept answers without delving deeper, and I pressed on matters I felt were useful to all those keen on investing.

With respect to parting with money, including my own, my feet are and were firmly on the ground. We're talking of a lot of money, despite this being an exciting engineering race, I've not coerced anyone to do anything with their savings. Everywhere possible I have stated people do their own research and make their own mind up. Are they are real engineering firm? Yes, I was able to prove that, but understand the risks involved why they may/may not deliver on time, understand the risks involved in Botcoin pricing on September and beyond. Ignore the calculator predictions that are wildly thrown about, and make sure your credit card company has additional liability. Throughout this I pressed quite aggressively they (KnC) accept card payment, because it always was about being my own financial investment as well, it only became more of that, as in a potential investment of time, when I realised the ability of the companies involved and the potential outcome for those parties as well. I value my time more than money. Way more.

[Bitcoinorama]

The sponsoring of the film was something I suggested to them last week as it broke press in the States. I saw it as a wise and low cost/ big impact marketing move as one of Sam's concerns about risk was the need to push Bitcoin for mainstream adoption. The film idea ticked all those boxes and I forwarded the Kickstarter page. Fri or Sat I think. Sam said he liked the idea, but I'm as surprised as anyone else that they've actually gone for it. It's a shrewd move if you want legitimacy.

Great idea, I feel you have done the entire bitcoin community a great service with this suggestion (assuming KnC pulls through and delivers on time).

You sir have earned a couple of beers on me.  Hopefully you find a Swedish hottie to drink them with.
https://blockchain.info/tx/d91071418b26db238e55a237b8337e93434868b22e057b06be19367840fc268a

edit.. link fixed

Thanks buddy, there's a lot of 'ifs', but should everything align, it will clearly be a fun project.

I've had a bit of screen time before, and a variety of jobs that have involved working in front of and with members of the public in a variety of ways, and the ability to gain and keep attention is based on character.  Plainly, in this case, could you sit through 90 minutes of these two and their wild honeymoon? Do they stand any chance in convincing strangers to accept Bitcoin? Will they make light of the complications on the way in a serious manner? They ticked all those boxes in their 3 min trailer, they are comfortable with the camera and appear confident they intend to see this through. The fact they personify mr and mrs (to be), joe public is ideal for legitimising mainstream mining.

Note: I cannot take credit for the idea of handing them a miner to use within the project itself. As much as that is a logical step, all I did was forward the Kickstarter page and said it's a cute story with a very determined and entertaining couple, I'd be all over this if I was you...

[ilpirata79]

I would like to know if the KNCminer guys have put some kind of limitation to the number of units that can be ordered.
This could be taken as a sign of reliability from them. Avalon for instance has done something like that by accepting orders in batches.
If not, that means in my opinion that they are only willing to make money, without guaranteeing to customers anything especially in terms of delivery time.

Regards,
ilpirata79

[Rampion]

Sorry guys, back to reality - most important question now is: have they already ordered the chips? Do we have an ETA confirmed by the fab?

As titomane said a few posts ago, those fabs do not hurry up for any customer - lead time for the chips will be anything from 8 to 12 weeks, and we need to assume 12 weeks to be on the safe side. I know how that huge businesses work - if they need to delay your order, they do, and you just can't do anything about it. This happened to Avalon too, just check what he said on his conference talk.

If KnC did not place the order for the chips yet, that's something to be worried about.

Please Bitcoinorama use your direct access to them to ask:

- are the chips ordered?
- if yes, what is the ETA confirmed by the fab?
- if not, why? didn't they reach the funding goal they needed for the order? How far away are them to place the order?

[titomane]

I would like to know if the KNCminer guys have put some kind of limitation to the number of units that can be ordered.
This could be taken as a sign of reliability from them. Avalon for instance has done something like that by accepting orders in batches.
If not, that means in my opinion that they are only willing to make money, without guaranteeing to customers anything especially in terms of delivery time.

Regards,
ilpirata79

Avalon has done lots from 10,000 to 200,000 chips. If selling 2.8Ths to 56Ths are small batches.
2.8 Ths are    8 Jupiter
56  Ths are 160 Jupiter  
If you put 10000 lots here: http://store.avalon-asics.com/?page_id=386   They sell it.                                            (So you can buy 26924 lots that are more than 21 millions BTC) joke coments
If you put 10000 jup here https://www.kncminer.com/shoppingcart.aspx send error only have 1xxx

Who of us wants only to make money? Honestly I think both.
But you say you do not do it for money (Avalon) and accepts web orders otherwise chips 10000000.
The other says he wants to make money and stay in business for long. But the website does not let buy over 2000 Jupiters

[Bitcoinorama]

Sorry guys, back to reality - most important question now is: have they already ordered the chips? Do we have an ETA confirmed by the fab?

As titomane said a few posts ago, those fabs do not hurry up for any customer - lead time for the chips will be anything from 8 to 12 weeks, and we need to assume 12 weeks to be on the safe side. I know how that huge businesses work - if they need to delay your order, they do, and you just can't do anything about it. This happened to Avalon too, just check what he said on his conference talk.

If KnC did not place the order for the chips yet, that's something to be worried about.

Please Bitcoinorama use your direct access to them to ask:

- are the chips ordered?
- if yes, what is the ETA confirmed by the fab?
- if not, why? didn't they reach the funding goal they needed for the order? How far away are them to place the order?

I fired an email yesterday with a variety of Q's I scraped from here. There were quite a few tech related q's. Waiting to get a reply back over which are answerable without being too advantageous to the competition.  They want to be transparent, but not at the cost of giving away too much info to those they are competing against.

[dan99]

Sorry guys, back to reality - most important question now is: have they already ordered the chips? Do we have an ETA confirmed by the fab?

As titomane said a few posts ago, those fabs do not hurry up for any customer - lead time for the chips will be anything from 8 to 12 weeks, and we need to assume 12 weeks to be on the safe side. I know how that huge businesses work - if they need to delay your order, they do, and you just can't do anything about it. This happened to Avalon too, just check what he said on his conference talk.

If KnC did not place the order for the chips yet, that's something to be worried about.

Please Bitcoinorama use your direct access to them to ask:

- are the chips ordered?
- if yes, what is the ETA confirmed by the fab?
- if not, why? didn't they reach the funding goal they needed for the order? How far away are them to place the order?

I fired an email yesterday with a variety of Q's I scraped from here. There were quite a few tech related q's. Waiting to get a reply back over which are answerable without being too advantageous to the competition.  They want to be transparent, but not at the cost of giving away too much info to those they are competing against.

Couldn't agreed more

[barfor]

BitcoinOrama, just wanted to say thanks for the significant insight (and putting yourself in the line of fire of seemingly drunk rednecks) thus robbing me of needed sleep... 

[bitpop]

They really need to give him that mars

[Bitcoinorama]

They really need to give him that mars

Mars in about to be fried in an all-out over-clocking assault!

[rizzman]

You should start putting those factlets in your sig. "want to work for KNCMINER, expecting to receive a free Jupiter".

No matter the criticism I can throw your way, I still appreciate the reports. I wish your prose were less biased though, they're still selling vaporware after all.

This is my point; I'm not expecting anything. Why are people putting words in my mouth just to satisfy their own point of view? If I end up working for them, or any crypto-engineering hardware company I would clearly state my allegiance, a sig would prob be a sensible place, but whilst I had my expectations before visiting, based on research conducted along the way which made me optimistic, I certainly wasn't about to loose my head. I'd like to think I still remained unbiased and balanced in the way I conducted the questioning.  Certainly didn't accept answers without delving deeper, and I pressed on matters I felt were useful to all those keen on investing.

With respect to parting with money, including my own, my feet are and were firmly on the ground. We're talking of a lot of money, despite this being an exciting engineering race, I've not coerced anyone to do anything with their savings. Everywhere possible I have stated people do their own research and make their own mind up. Are they are real engineering firm? Yes, I was able to prove that, but understand the risks involved why they may/may not deliver on time, understand the risks involved in Botcoin pricing on September and beyond. Ignore the calculator predictions that are wildly thrown about, and make sure your credit card company has additional liability. Throughout this I pressed quite aggressively they (KnC) accept card payment, because it always was about being my own financial investment as well, it only became more of that, as in a potential investment of time, when I realised the ability of the companies involved and the potential outcome for those parties as well. I value my time more than money. Way more.

Dude, you should not even respond to this kind of posts.

This is the exact kind of shit that was going on when Avalon started taking orders - People harping about how it is impossible to do, "its a scam", "Just a bunch of Chinese scammers". These were all phrases that were thrown around when Avalon was taking Batch 1 Orders, and I can't help but wonder how many of those asshats are now sitting on a pile of coin because they decided to risk a paltry $1300 bucks while discouraging others into not doing the same... I kick myself every day for letting people like this influence my decision like I did at that time, and I am sure they're are MANY more that also feel this way. Now "He's just saying this to get a free unit" can be added to this list.  

I hope this not the case, however, as it was stated earlier this is unfortunately a zero sum game, and it is quite literally an incentive for some people to keep others out of the mining game, however way possible. I hope this is not what is happening on the forum but my realist outlook says beware.

Honestly, in my opinion, you and everyone else who took the time to go grill these guys deserves a free unit - Without a doubt you guys have been the best advertising expense KNCMiner has never paid...The only reason why I risked ordering more than a saturn was because you guys were able to clear the air on alot of the questions on whether or not KNCMiner is legit (ie. Do they even exist?).

Bitcoinorama, please don't waste anymore of your time on these guys, you are already giving so much back to the community in the form of these transcripts I'd hate to see you get burnt out because of a bunch of Naysayers. If they don't feel like its a safe enough investment for their cash, that's ok let them talk, hopefully come September we'll be sitting on some solid equipment and reaping the benefit of our bets while they sit on the sidelines bidding on the scraps on ebay.

Fortune favors the bold

Bitcoinorama, Thank you again for taking the time to do this. Drive on

[fragout]

+1 ^
 ty Bitcoinorama for the information.
Lets not forget that he was not the only one that attended the open days and all seem to have the same impression of KNC.
Personally I dont mind any1 trying to uncover a possible scam and the more questions asked, the better.
There are after all scammer sellers that have already been unearthed by memebers on this forum such as http://www.gxmining.com/ (although that was an easy one)
photoshopping the BFL jap pic - seriously

[KS]

You should start putting those factlets in your sig. "want to work for KNCMINER, expecting to receive a free Jupiter".

No matter the criticism I can throw your way, I still appreciate the reports. I wish your prose were less biased though, they're still selling vaporware after all.

This is my point; I'm not expecting anything. Why are people putting words in my mouth just to satisfy their own point of view? If I end up working for them, or any crypto-engineering hardware company I would clearly state my allegiance, a sig would prob be a sensible place, but whilst I had my expectations before visiting, based on research conducted along the way which made me optimistic, I certainly wasn't about to loose my head. I'd like to think I still remained unbiased and balanced in the way I conducted the questioning.  Certainly didn't accept answers without delving deeper, and I pressed on matters I felt were useful to all those keen on investing.

With respect to parting with money, including my own, my feet are and were firmly on the ground. We're talking of a lot of money, despite this being an exciting engineering race, I've not coerced anyone to do anything with their savings. Everywhere possible I have stated people do their own research and make their own mind up. Are they are real engineering firm? Yes, I was able to prove that, but understand the risks involved why they may/may not deliver on time, understand the risks involved in Botcoin pricing on September and beyond. Ignore the calculator predictions that are wildly thrown about, and make sure your credit card company has additional liability. Throughout this I pressed quite aggressively they (KnC) accept card payment, because it always was about being my own financial investment as well, it only became more of that, as in a potential investment of time, when I realised the ability of the companies involved and the potential outcome for those parties as well. I value my time more than money. Way more.

Dude, you should not even respond to this kind of posts.

This is the exact kind of shit that was going on when Avalon started taking orders - People harping about how it is impossible to do, "its a scam", "Just a bunch of Chinese scammers". These were all phrases that were thrown around when Avalon was taking Batch 1 Orders, and I can't help but wonder how many of those asshats are now sitting on a pile of coin because they decided to risk a paltry $1300 bucks while discouraging others into not doing the same... I kick myself every day for letting people like this influence my decision like I did at that time, and I am sure they're are MANY more that also feel this way. Now "He's just saying this to get a free unit" can be added to this list.  

I hope this not the case, however, as it was stated earlier this is unfortunately a zero sum game, and it is quite literally an incentive for some people to keep others out of the mining game, however way possible. I hope this is not what is happening on the forum but my realist outlook says beware.

Honestly, in my opinion, you and everyone else who took the time to go grill these guys deserves a free unit - Without a doubt you guys have been the best advertising expense KNCMiner has never paid...The only reason why I risked ordering more than a saturn was because you guys were able to clear the air on alot of the questions on whether or not KNCMiner is legit (ie. Do they even exist?).

Bitcoinorama, please don't waste anymore of your time on these guys, you are already giving so much back to the community in the form of these transcripts I'd hate to see you get burnt out because of a bunch of Naysayers. If they don't feel like its a safe enough investment for their cash, that's ok let them talk, hopefully come September we'll be sitting on some solid equipment and reaping the benefit of our bets while they sit on the sidelines bidding on the scraps on ebay.

Fortune favors the bold

Bitcoinorama, Thank you again for taking the time to do this. Drive on

I'm being the devil's advocate for people drinking the KNCMINER Kool-Aid. Bitcoinorama is painting everything in pink, I'm painting it black, the truth is in the middle. I'm not about to stop calling their BS when I see it though.

[Coin_fan]

There are after all scammer sellers that have already been unearthed by memebers on this forum such as http://www.gxmining.com/ (although that was an easy one)
photoshopping the BFL jap pic - seriously

Plus this gxmining.com has Identity Protection Service, WOW :-) ---- HIDE is the best word.....

   
******************************************************************
Registrar:   123Reg/Webfusion
URL:      http://www.123-reg.co.uk/domain-names/

This domain is provided by 123-reg. We're the UK's largest
registrar with over 3 million domains sold. We also provide
cheap, easy website creation.
******************************************************************

Domain Name:      GXMINING.COM
Creation Date:      2013-03-30
Expiry Date:      2014-03-30
Nameserver:      ns51.redbackinternet.net
Nameserver:      ns52.redbackinternet.net
Registrant Name:   Identity Protection Service
Registrant Company:   Identity Protect Limited
Registrant Address:   PO Box 795
Registrant Address:   Godalming
Registrant Address:   Surrey
Registrant Address:   GU7 9GA
Registrant Address:   GB
Administrative Name:   Identity Protection Service
Administrative Company:   Identity Protect Limited
Administrative Address:   PO Box 795
Administrative Address:   Godalming
Administrative Address:   Surrey
Administrative Address:   GU7 9GA
Administrative Address:   GB
Administrative Email:   gxmining.com@identity-protect.org
Administrative Tel:   +44.1483307527
Administrative Fax:   +44.1483304031
Technical Name:      Identity Protection Service
Technical Company:   Identity Protect Limited
Technical Address:   PO Box 795
Technical Address:   Godalming
Technical Address:   Surrey
Technical Address:   GU7 9GA
Technical Address:   GB
Technical Email:   gxmining.com@identity-protect.org
Technical Tel:      +44.1483307527
Technical Fax:      +44.1483304031

[rizzman]

You should start putting those factlets in your sig. "want to work for KNCMINER, expecting to receive a free Jupiter".

No matter the criticism I can throw your way, I still appreciate the reports. I wish your prose were less biased though, they're still selling vaporware after all.

This is my point; I'm not expecting anything. Why are people putting words in my mouth just to satisfy their own point of view? If I end up working for them, or any crypto-engineering hardware company I would clearly state my allegiance, a sig would prob be a sensible place, but whilst I had my expectations before visiting, based on research conducted along the way which made me optimistic, I certainly wasn't about to loose my head. I'd like to think I still remained unbiased and balanced in the way I conducted the questioning.  Certainly didn't accept answers without delving deeper, and I pressed on matters I felt were useful to all those keen on investing.

With respect to parting with money, including my own, my feet are and were firmly on the ground. We're talking of a lot of money, despite this being an exciting engineering race, I've not coerced anyone to do anything with their savings. Everywhere possible I have stated people do their own research and make their own mind up. Are they are real engineering firm? Yes, I was able to prove that, but understand the risks involved why they may/may not deliver on time, understand the risks involved in Botcoin pricing on September and beyond. Ignore the calculator predictions that are wildly thrown about, and make sure your credit card company has additional liability. Throughout this I pressed quite aggressively they (KnC) accept card payment, because it always was about being my own financial investment as well, it only became more of that, as in a potential investment of time, when I realised the ability of the companies involved and the potential outcome for those parties as well. I value my time more than money. Way more.

Dude, you should not even respond to this kind of posts.

This is the exact kind of shit that was going on when Avalon started taking orders - People harping about how it is impossible to do, "its a scam", "Just a bunch of Chinese scammers". These were all phrases that were thrown around when Avalon was taking Batch 1 Orders, and I can't help but wonder how many of those asshats are now sitting on a pile of coin because they decided to risk a paltry $1300 bucks while discouraging others into not doing the same... I kick myself every day for letting people like this influence my decision like I did at that time, and I am sure they're are MANY more that also feel this way. Now "He's just saying this to get a free unit" can be added to this list.  

I hope this not the case, however, as it was stated earlier this is unfortunately a zero sum game, and it is quite literally an incentive for some people to keep others out of the mining game, however way possible. I hope this is not what is happening on the forum but my realist outlook says beware.

Honestly, in my opinion, you and everyone else who took the time to go grill these guys deserves a free unit - Without a doubt you guys have been the best advertising expense KNCMiner has never paid...The only reason why I risked ordering more than a saturn was because you guys were able to clear the air on alot of the questions on whether or not KNCMiner is legit (ie. Do they even exist?).

Bitcoinorama, please don't waste anymore of your time on these guys, you are already giving so much back to the community in the form of these transcripts I'd hate to see you get burnt out because of a bunch of Naysayers. If they don't feel like its a safe enough investment for their cash, that's ok let them talk, hopefully come September we'll be sitting on some solid equipment and reaping the benefit of our bets while they sit on the sidelines bidding on the scraps on ebay.

Fortune favors the bold

Bitcoinorama, Thank you again for taking the time to do this. Drive on

I'm being the devil's advocate for people drinking the KNCMINER Kool-Aid. Bitcoinorama is painting everything in pink, I'm painting it black, the truth is in the middle. I'm not about to stop calling their BS when I see it though.

Devil's Advocate is one thing, accusing those that are trying to help / show some optimism is another. I been following this post (and others) since Page 3, and its the same bullshit page after page, for every piece of evidence that is given to confirm legitimacy someone comes up with some other BS reason as to why its a scam.

Don't get me wrong, Questioning dubious claims, showing concern, and reminding people about the risk is one thing, but outright claiming that the guy is working for the company, and accusing him of feeding us sunshine and rainbows bullshit so he can get free equipment is another...

Seriously... The guy has absolutely no reason to share anything with any of us! The fact he is taking the time out to go through and ask questions for everyone else whose too busy/scared to buy/poor to take the trip over and meet these guys face to face says a lot if you ask me. He could have easily kept his mouth shut, bashed the company and bought for himself any number of units and wait for delivery to cash in...

And don't even try to use that argument that "Of course he has a reason to lie to us, because he has something to gain" because there have been multiple others credible members on here who have been saying the same thing Bitcoinorama has been saying since they visited the location, and it is HIGHLY unlikely that they are all colluding with KNCMiner.

Everyone know's the risks, there's no need to accuse those trying to help of foul play.

[Korbman]

I'm being the devil's advocate for people drinking the KNCMINER Kool-Aid. Bitcoinorama is painting everything in pink, I'm painting it black, the truth is in the middle. I'm not about to stop calling their BS when I see it though.

Devil's Advocate is one thing, accusing those that are trying to help / show some optimism is another. I been following this post (and others) since Page 3, and its the same bullshit page after page, for every piece of evidence that is given to confirm legitimacy someone comes up with some other BS reason as to why its a scam.

It's amazing how small some of the pages become once you put KS on ignore.

[KS]

You should start putting those factlets in your sig. "want to work for KNCMINER, expecting to receive a free Jupiter".

No matter the criticism I can throw your way, I still appreciate the reports. I wish your prose were less biased though, they're still selling vaporware after all.

This is my point; I'm not expecting anything. Why are people putting words in my mouth just to satisfy their own point of view? If I end up working for them, or any crypto-engineering hardware company I would clearly state my allegiance, a sig would prob be a sensible place, but whilst I had my expectations before visiting, based on research conducted along the way which made me optimistic, I certainly wasn't about to loose my head. I'd like to think I still remained unbiased and balanced in the way I conducted the questioning.  Certainly didn't accept answers without delving deeper, and I pressed on matters I felt were useful to all those keen on investing.

With respect to parting with money, including my own, my feet are and were firmly on the ground. We're talking of a lot of money, despite this being an exciting engineering race, I've not coerced anyone to do anything with their savings. Everywhere possible I have stated people do their own research and make their own mind up. Are they are real engineering firm? Yes, I was able to prove that, but understand the risks involved why they may/may not deliver on time, understand the risks involved in Botcoin pricing on September and beyond. Ignore the calculator predictions that are wildly thrown about, and make sure your credit card company has additional liability. Throughout this I pressed quite aggressively they (KnC) accept card payment, because it always was about being my own financial investment as well, it only became more of that, as in a potential investment of time, when I realised the ability of the companies involved and the potential outcome for those parties as well. I value my time more than money. Way more.

Dude, you should not even respond to this kind of posts.

This is the exact kind of shit that was going on when Avalon started taking orders - People harping about how it is impossible to do, "its a scam", "Just a bunch of Chinese scammers". These were all phrases that were thrown around when Avalon was taking Batch 1 Orders, and I can't help but wonder how many of those asshats are now sitting on a pile of coin because they decided to risk a paltry $1300 bucks while discouraging others into not doing the same... I kick myself every day for letting people like this influence my decision like I did at that time, and I am sure they're are MANY more that also feel this way. Now "He's just saying this to get a free unit" can be added to this list.  

I hope this not the case, however, as it was stated earlier this is unfortunately a zero sum game, and it is quite literally an incentive for some people to keep others out of the mining game, however way possible. I hope this is not what is happening on the forum but my realist outlook says beware.

Honestly, in my opinion, you and everyone else who took the time to go grill these guys deserves a free unit - Without a doubt you guys have been the best advertising expense KNCMiner has never paid...The only reason why I risked ordering more than a saturn was because you guys were able to clear the air on alot of the questions on whether or not KNCMiner is legit (ie. Do they even exist?).

Bitcoinorama, please don't waste anymore of your time on these guys, you are already giving so much back to the community in the form of these transcripts I'd hate to see you get burnt out because of a bunch of Naysayers. If they don't feel like its a safe enough investment for their cash, that's ok let them talk, hopefully come September we'll be sitting on some solid equipment and reaping the benefit of our bets while they sit on the sidelines bidding on the scraps on ebay.

Fortune favors the bold

Bitcoinorama, Thank you again for taking the time to do this. Drive on

I'm being the devil's advocate for people drinking the KNCMINER Kool-Aid. Bitcoinorama is painting everything in pink, I'm painting it black, the truth is in the middle. I'm not about to stop calling their BS when I see it though.

Devil's Advocate is one thing, accusing those that are trying to help / show some optimism is another. I been following this post (and others) since Page 3, and its the same bullshit page after page, for every piece of evidence that is given to confirm legitimacy someone comes up with some other BS reason as to why its a scam.

Don't get me wrong, Questioning dubious claims, showing concern, and reminding people about the risk is one thing, but outright claiming that the guy is working for the company, and accusing him of feeding us sunshine and rainbows bullshit so he can get free equipment is another...

Seriously... The guy has absolutely no reason to share anything with any of us! The fact he is taking the time out to go through and ask questions for everyone else whose too busy/scared to buy/poor to take the trip over and meet these guys face to face says a lot if you ask me. He could have easily kept his mouth shut, bashed the company and bought for himself any number of units and wait for delivery to cash in...

And don't even try to use that argument that "Of course he has a reason to lie to us, because he has something to gain" because there have been multiple others credible members on here who have been saying the same thing Bitcoinorama has been saying since they visited the location, and it is HIGHLY unlikely that they are all colluding with KNCMiner.

Everyone know's the risks, there's no need to accuse those trying to help of foul play.

Sorry but I don't think you have completely followed my discussion with Bitcoinorama, which I can understand as it's spread over several threads.

There are several things I don't like in his dealings with KNCMINER:

1/ lack of criticism (he's been attacking very much everyone else, why the dichotomy?)
2/ self-interest (he did take his CV)
3/ no paid for order (while actively attacking everyone not line with his view on KNCMINER) - still undenied

Regarding the company itself, I don't mind people defending KNCMINER, the tech side seems OK, but I find it depressing that no one is actually doing their due diligence on the company (equity, etc). Going to the open day is really not enough, it just shows the tech side, and they have been continuously evading budgetary questions. And the shills! Way too many for a "legit"/well-meaning business.

So yes, maybe they have a running miner, but they haven't showed to be trustworthy businessmen. Quite the contrary. Maybe you don't have experience with these kind of characters, but everything I see points me to a category of ppl I deal with on a regular basis and it says "treat with extreme caution". "Quick buck" is what I see. Your mileage may vary.

[Bitcoinorama]

You should start putting those factlets in your sig. "want to work for KNCMINER, expecting to receive a free Jupiter".

No matter the criticism I can throw your way, I still appreciate the reports. I wish your prose were less biased though, they're still selling vaporware after all.

This is my point; I'm not expecting anything. Why are people putting words in my mouth just to satisfy their own point of view? If I end up working for them, or any crypto-engineering hardware company I would clearly state my allegiance, a sig would prob be a sensible place, but whilst I had my expectations before visiting, based on research conducted along the way which made me optimistic, I certainly wasn't about to loose my head. I'd like to think I still remained unbiased and balanced in the way I conducted the questioning.  Certainly didn't accept answers without delving deeper, and I pressed on matters I felt were useful to all those keen on investing.

With respect to parting with money, including my own, my feet are and were firmly on the ground. We're talking of a lot of money, despite this being an exciting engineering race, I've not coerced anyone to do anything with their savings. Everywhere possible I have stated people do their own research and make their own mind up. Are they are real engineering firm? Yes, I was able to prove that, but understand the risks involved why they may/may not deliver on time, understand the risks involved in Botcoin pricing on September and beyond. Ignore the calculator predictions that are wildly thrown about, and make sure your credit card company has additional liability. Throughout this I pressed quite aggressively they (KnC) accept card payment, because it always was about being my own financial investment as well, it only became more of that, as in a potential investment of time, when I realised the ability of the companies involved and the potential outcome for those parties as well. I value my time more than money. Way more.

Dude, you should not even respond to this kind of posts.

This is the exact kind of shit that was going on when Avalon started taking orders - People harping about how it is impossible to do, "its a scam", "Just a bunch of Chinese scammers". These were all phrases that were thrown around when Avalon was taking Batch 1 Orders, and I can't help but wonder how many of those asshats are now sitting on a pile of coin because they decided to risk a paltry $1300 bucks while discouraging others into not doing the same... I kick myself every day for letting people like this influence my decision like I did at that time, and I am sure they're are MANY more that also feel this way. Now "He's just saying this to get a free unit" can be added to this list.  

I hope this not the case, however, as it was stated earlier this is unfortunately a zero sum game, and it is quite literally an incentive for some people to keep others out of the mining game, however way possible. I hope this is not what is happening on the forum but my realist outlook says beware.

Honestly, in my opinion, you and everyone else who took the time to go grill these guys deserves a free unit - Without a doubt you guys have been the best advertising expense KNCMiner has never paid...The only reason why I risked ordering more than a saturn was because you guys were able to clear the air on alot of the questions on whether or not KNCMiner is legit (ie. Do they even exist?).

Bitcoinorama, please don't waste anymore of your time on these guys, you are already giving so much back to the community in the form of these transcripts I'd hate to see you get burnt out because of a bunch of Naysayers. If they don't feel like its a safe enough investment for their cash, that's ok let them talk, hopefully come September we'll be sitting on some solid equipment and reaping the benefit of our bets while they sit on the sidelines bidding on the scraps on ebay.

Fortune favors the bold

Bitcoinorama, Thank you again for taking the time to do this. Drive on

I'm being the devil's advocate for people drinking the KNCMINER Kool-Aid. Bitcoinorama is painting everything in pink, I'm painting it black, the truth is in the middle. I'm not about to stop calling their BS when I see it though.

Devil's Advocate is one thing, accusing those that are trying to help / show some optimism is another. I been following this post (and others) since Page 3, and its the same bullshit page after page, for every piece of evidence that is given to confirm legitimacy someone comes up with some other BS reason as to why its a scam.

Don't get me wrong, Questioning dubious claims, showing concern, and reminding people about the risk is one thing, but outright claiming that the guy is working for the company, and accusing him of feeding us sunshine and rainbows bullshit so he can get free equipment is another...

Seriously... The guy has absolutely no reason to share anything with any of us! The fact he is taking the time out to go through and ask questions for everyone else whose too busy/scared to buy/poor to take the trip over and meet these guys face to face says a lot if you ask me. He could have easily kept his mouth shut, bashed the company and bought for himself any number of units and wait for delivery to cash in...

And don't even try to use that argument that "Of course he has a reason to lie to us, because he has something to gain" because there have been multiple others credible members on here who have been saying the same thing Bitcoinorama has been saying since they visited the location, and it is HIGHLY unlikely that they are all colluding with KNCMiner.

Everyone know's the risks, there's no need to accuse those trying to help of foul play.

Well that, and the fact it's a short trip over for himself to Stockholm, seeing as he is UK based as well as me.

There is nothing stopping him, KnC are more than welcoming with a heads up.

Would be cheaper too for him to go as well, as I confirmed attendance for the Open-day a couple to days before, a bit too last minute outbound flight-wise.

The return was only £40, train shuttles straight from airport to Sockholm T-Centralen and it's a 10 minute walk or a short cab ride after to ORSoC, they are very centrally located, a few blocks from the main square.

Also, there were no shills. The miner was working on Daggeteo's personal account, he is not a shill. Neither is his brother, or the other chaps there. The rest were a group of experienced guys with a competitive edge an a strong work ethic rushed off their feet (admittedly of their own devise) with no time for this bull$h*t.

There does apparently appear to be a few people intent on discrediting this project consistently no matter what lengths are taken. Fact is irrespective of me heading there peeps invested. So me going serves no purpose other than reassurance, and all the bitching is just noise, as NRE has been funded so it's just a case of keeping on top of developments and see how this progresses. I'm just a loooot more relaxed for going, but if anyone continues to have nagging concerns, I wholeheartedly recommend you take a brief flight and quit whinging!

[DPoS]

I'm being the devil's advocate for people drinking the KNCMINER Kool-Aid. Bitcoinorama is painting everything in pink, I'm painting it black, the truth is in the middle. I'm not about to stop calling their BS when I see it though.

Devil's Advocate is one thing, accusing those that are trying to help / show some optimism is another. I been following this post (and others) since Page 3, and its the same bullshit page after page, for every piece of evidence that is given to confirm legitimacy someone comes up with some other BS reason as to why its a scam.

It's amazing how small some of the pages become once you put KS on ignore.

i might have to join you in that

[Slartybardfast]

Here here, if you don't have anything good to say, keep it to yourself. I applause you BitcoinOrama for doing what others only intimated at.

[blastbob]

You might not won a full miner, but you just earned yourself 4 shares on the second miner in the second KNC groupbuy by Tyrion70 and me.

Thanks for good info gathering and continue doing so

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=238336.0

[daggeteo]

Gents, please do keep the quoting to a minimum. Limit yourselves to one quote per post, for everybody's sake.

[Bitcoinorama]

You might not won a full miner, but you just earned yourself 4 shares on the second miner in the second KNC groupbuy by Tyrion70 and me.

Thanks for good info gathering and continue doing so

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=238336.0

Haha that's awesome!

[KSV]

Swedish engineers man, awkward, introvert, funny and fucking smart

+1 just the way its supposed to be

[dwangoac]

Bitcoinorama, you have a very lengthy method of replying to questions which I am now thoroughly convinced is your way of ensuring you err on the side of over-communication.  I appreciate your sincerity and your efforts and I look forward to future responses from KNC.  Thanks and keep it up!

A.C.
******

[Bitcoinorama]

Bitcoinorama, you have a very lengthy method of replying to questions which I am now thoroughly convinced is your way of ensuring you err on the side of over-communication.  I appreciate your sincerity and your efforts and I look forward to future responses from KNC.  Thanks and keep it up!

A.C.
******

No sometimes, I'm traveling, so my answers are brief. Some times I'm chilling, like when I answered you I had just come back from the gym, so I had a bit of verbal diharrea...in any case my phone pings me with every response due to it hitting an email account associated with this forum login. I should really find away to turn that off it's wayy too invasive now. I was actually reading your comment before responding, whilst at the gym which is pretty sad to be honest!!

That and the fact I do actually enjoy writing, I'm pretty good at it!

[Coin_fan]

Do you think that KnC should choose Bitcoinorama as a PR person for the company?

Lets vote...

Bitcoinorama, you have a very lengthy method of replying to questions which I am now thoroughly convinced is your way of ensuring you err on the side of over-communication.  I appreciate your sincerity and your efforts and I look forward to future responses from KNC.  Thanks and keep it up!

A.C.
******

[Bagpipe]

When were at the open-day the burn ins mentioned I think we're only 10 minutes and may even be to your wallet. I was surprised at the time at how short they said they would be, I assumed you need to test for long-term usage. Perhaps it was 10 hours then, but certainly wasn't days. I'm sure it's on the audio somewhere.

10 minutes is enough to KNOW with a fair degree of certainty that the hashing is defective or not. Why? It is the way the bitcoin is designed: the mathematical operation is computationally heavy (many repetitive steps), but the verifying process should be fast. That is why there is the "HW" in the cgminer, to show HW errors, some error rate can be easily tolerated by the user anyway, the number of accepted shares is what matters to you in the end.
If no major flamingo-ups a-la AMD880G chipset events occur, all should be well. And even that one occured only after 1-2 years of use, so AMD pays no attention to it. After that much time the miner should be obsolete anyway.

[Bagpipe]

KS, I want to point out some funny business.

When I mentioned the suspicious circumstances of the KnC you and the other guy discovered to the investor, he said something like:"it is always that was when you are starting a successful business."

Well, I just remembered:
Bill Gates and Microsoft: everything they did was a funny business in the early years, especially the scam with the MS-DOS they sold to IBM, they DID NOT have any MS-DOS to sell to them in the first place!
Next: Apple and Steve Jobs. What kinds of drugs people there were running on I don't even want to know an the massive scale of intellectual property thefts they made in the early years and continued to do so later is astounding. Luckily for them people at BOTH Xerox and HP were retards.

Basically, the funny business you found out about only tells me this may become a very successful business venture.

Anyway, I URGE ALL PEOPLE OF THE PLANET EARTH TO STOP INVESTING IN ASIC MINERS IMMEDIATELY. Or else. Emm.... it will be unprofitable for everyone?

[daggeteo]

...in any case my phone pings me with every response due to it hitting an email account associated with this forum login. I should really find away to turn that off it's wayy too invasive now.

The solution is to filter your email

[naRky]

Was there some news on open day about hosting in KNC? Or somebody now more about this?

[titomane]

Was there some news on open day about hosting in KNC? Or somebody now more about this?

It's easier to ask to read. It is also easier grinding food and drink. I'll Do?

[mandelmus]

It's amazing how small some of the pages become once you put KS on ignore.

LOL    ... come on now, be nice ... we need fair and balanced discussions

[Rampion]

To the people flaming KS and Bitcoinorama:

Cool off, guys. Both are doing their job. It's way better for the community to have them both, than having just one of them or none.

Bitcoinorama is very thorough and did a huge work, but it's true that he might be a little "over-enthusiastic" at times. Well, the truth is that he even would like to work for KnC, he admitted that. But this does not mean that he's dishonest, just that he is a little bit biased.

From the other side KS is playing devil's advocates, raising clever and adequate concerns, cooling off people's hope that turns in "wishful thinking" some times.

TL-DR -> we need them both. Keep up the good job, guys

[bitpop]

Rama is the inaba of knc, but with much higher morals.

[naRky]

Was there some news on open day about hosting in KNC? Or somebody now more about this?

It's easier to ask to read. It is also easier grinding food and drink. I'll Do?

whats the point of your reply?

[mandelmus]

Bitcoinorama, you have a very lengthy method of replying to questions which I am now thoroughly convinced is your way of ensuring you err on the side of over-communication.  I appreciate your sincerity and your efforts and I look forward to future responses from KNC.  Thanks and keep it up!

A.C.
******

Ya, it's amazing how bitcoinorama has maintained his cool and not gotten upset over some of our posts ... he just keeps peacefully chugging away

[bitpop]

He's high

[titomane]

Was there some news on open day about hosting in KNC? Or somebody now more about this?

It's easier to ask to read. It is also easier grinding food and drink. I'll Do?

whats the point of your reply?

All we know is written in the forum. As easy as that

[mandelmus]

I understand that the first pre-order batch from KnC will be delivered first.  What is the estimated delivery month for the 2nd batch?  How do we know which order batch we are in?

[naRky]

Was there some news on open day about hosting in KNC? Or somebody now more about this?

It's easier to ask to read. It is also easier grinding food and drink. I'll Do?

whats the point of your reply?

All we know is written in the forum. As easy as that

yes i know im following all topics about KNC from begining, so am asking if there are some news if has somebody asked support about that or if bitcoinorama know something more about that.

anyway, thank you for answer

[Bitcoinorama]

No more than what I posted. There is more audio, I just want a break from that. It wasn't asked in the Q&A part, so it could be anywhere as obv. I stuck to the order and format of the Q&A so the answers to that are logically aligned. Sam has promised an update next week, so maybe it will be mentioned.  I remember off the top of my head, there was loads of choice, cooling is def not the issue in northern Scandinavia (that includes countries next to Sweden), he obviously won't reveal precise locations, but the data centres are aware of what they will be housing, it's just how much assistance he needs from their side to ensure smooth operation, as most diagnostic and repair can be performed remotely, but he still requires the ability to call for a physical restart. Data centres charge more on the amount of additional service you require aside security and power.

[Slartybardfast]

I understand that the first pre-order batch from KnC will be delivered first.  What is the estimated delivery month for the 2nd batch?  How do we know which order batch we are in?

I dont think they are batching, they are just going to roll out the the factory, figuratively speaking.

[buysellbitcoin]

tldr anyone please?

Ryanair I will always avoid wherever possible whatever the expense;

The return in contrast was with Norwegian airlines, In essence, everything one would expect, the perfect customer experience at a very fair fare.

You can see where I'm going with this; I believe BFL had all the best intentions in the beginning, but in all fairness I see more of Ryanair in BFL than i'm comfortable with.


The same can be said for the team at ORSoC the guys are surprisingly well groomed, and fit for geeks,

Present from ORSoC were; CTO, Marcus Erlandsson, who is pretty much the brains behind our future mining devices. His entire house is 'Bond lair' of automation, and security controlled from software he wrote for his 'droid phone. He sits and configured his house lighting from his hands, serving no purpose other than to wind his wife up when he's in a bar with friends. She's potentially the only spouse happy to see her husband occupied the next few months...

CEO, Johan Rilegård, sharp, but calm character.

Sam Cole, by his admission will never win a spelling bee,

Andreas Kennemar, was present for every moment, aside fielding phone calls to the KnC hotline (a mobile he has with him at all times).


If any of you have chosen delivery over pick-up in person, you are mad. The women alone are worth the journey.

What you saw of Mars was it firing 6 Gh/s in the initial video. Marcus wasn't happy he wanted to show what he could really pump out of it.

Mars is now comfortably hitting 6.8 Gh/s stable since Marcus has been allowed to do some of the tweaks he wasn't allowed previously.

The chip manufacturer I believe is chosen today. Sam was quite matter of fact about how they aim to hit September, they have worked through every feasible route anticipating points of failure and de-risked as much as possible. ORSoC being who the are have obviously contacts with multiple PCB fabricators, and are splitting orders to ensure delivery. Everything is being done to ensure scalability is present as well. They said they can confidently handle any order size and growth. Any delays will be documented and evidence presented. They will be transparent through any delay. This is where the confusion with BFL exists, why aren't they doing this?

This is a Formula One race as they see it.  Time is everything.

Would I tell you to bet the farm on them? Never. Would I personally advise getting into debt over this right now? Nope. I am definitely more confident for attending. I have an order for Jupiter which I can afford.

Also in case you care, f**k me is Sweden expensive.

Byyeeeee! (Tips appreciated, see below! )

Cheers

[DPoS]

To the people flaming KS and Bitcoinorama:

Cool off, guys. Both are doing their job. It's way better for the community to have them both, than having just one of them or none.

Bitcoinorama is very thorough and did a huge work, but it's true that he might be a little "over-enthusiastic" at times. Well, the truth is that he even would like to work for KnC, he admitted that. But this does not mean that he's dishonest, just that he is a little bit biased.

From the other side KS is playing devil's advocates, raising clever and adequate concerns, cooling off people's hope that turns in "wishful thinking" some times.

TL-DR -> we need them both. Keep up the good job, guys

No-  KS is playing the troll at this point...  Many times he has posted misinformation instead of honest concern to try to stay relevant

[rizzman]

To the people flaming KS and Bitcoinorama:

Cool off, guys. Both are doing their job. It's way better for the community to have them both, than having just one of them or none.

Bitcoinorama is very thorough and did a huge work, but it's true that he might be a little "over-enthusiastic" at times. Well, the truth is that he even would like to work for KnC, he admitted that. But this does not mean that he's dishonest, just that he is a little bit biased.

From the other side KS is playing devil's advocates, raising clever and adequate concerns, cooling off people's hope that turns in "wishful thinking" some times.

TL-DR -> we need them both. Keep up the good job, guys

No-  KS is playing the troll at this point...  Many times he has posted misinformation instead of honest concern to try to stay relevant

To a degree you are correct, however I do agree with Rampion, The forum is better with him, than without him. And to be fair, he has not been the only dissident. he just happened to get the last word in, which made him the target of criticism..

KS - no hard feelings man, Just stick to the facts. Let the rest of us draw our own conclusions.

[Bitcoinorama]

Whoever just dropped me a 0.25BTC tip, wow, very generous, but please don't remain anonymous, PM me, so I can do the right thing and say thank-you!!

[Biomech]

He's high

You say that like it's a bad thing:====#~~~

[Biomech]

I understand that the first pre-order batch from KnC will be delivered first.  What is the estimated delivery month for the 2nd batch?  How do we know which order batch we are in?

My understanding is that they will just go in to continuous production, clearing the pre-orders first.

[Bitcoinorama]

Yeah! Looks like the, "Life on Bitcoin" film is really going to happen, they have only $2.5k left to raise to fund the project.

So if any of you care to support them in this endeavour to increase Bitcoin awareness, and acceptance as a means of payment (which is of obvious benefit to the whole mining and Bitcoin community), or fancy a t-shirt (the 'Who is Satoshi Nakamoto?' is pretty rad), then follow this link...

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bitcoinlife/life-on-bitcoin-a-documentary-film

[bitpop]

If she did a topless I'd donate

[canth]

Yeah! Looks like the, "Life on Bitcoin" film is really going to happen, they have only $2.5k left to raise to fund the project.

So if any of you care to support them in this endeavour to increase Bitcoin awareness, and acceptance as a means of payment (which is of obvious benefit to the whole mining and Bitcoin community), or fancy a t-shirt (the 'Who is Satoshi Nakamoto?' is pretty rad), then follow this link...

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bitcoinlife/life-on-bitcoin-a-documentary-film

Yeah - as soon as I saw the announcement, I kicked in for a t-shirt. It's in all of our best interests to have a project like this succeed.

[Bitcoinorama]

Yeah! Looks like the, "Life on Bitcoin" film is really going to happen, they have only $2.5k left to raise to fund the project.

So if any of you care to support them in this endeavour to increase Bitcoin awareness, and acceptance as a means of payment (which is of obvious benefit to the whole mining and Bitcoin community), or fancy a t-shirt (the 'Who is Satoshi Nakamoto?' is pretty rad), then follow this link...

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bitcoinlife/life-on-bitcoin-a-documentary-film

Yeah - as soon as I saw the announcement, I kicked in for a t-shirt. It's in all of our best interests to have a project like this succeed.

Which one did you go for? I like the 'who is SN?', but the colours are a bit camp, just seen the all text one though, that I like! The other two are a bit generic...

[canth]

Yeah! Looks like the, "Life on Bitcoin" film is really going to happen, they have only $2.5k left to raise to fund the project.

So if any of you care to support them in this endeavour to increase Bitcoin awareness, and acceptance as a means of payment (which is of obvious benefit to the whole mining and Bitcoin community), or fancy a t-shirt (the 'Who is Satoshi Nakamoto?' is pretty rad), then follow this link...

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bitcoinlife/life-on-bitcoin-a-documentary-film

Yeah - as soon as I saw the announcement, I kicked in for a t-shirt. It's in all of our best interests to have a project like this succeed.

Which one did you go for? I like the 'who is SN?', but the colours are a bit camp, just seen the all text one though, that I like! The other two are a bit generic...

I went with the "Bitcoin Early Adopter" (as of now there are slots left). It appears that you get to pick the shirt, color and size later with this option - I can procrastinate until later.

[Kuroth]

Sorry guys, back to reality - most important question now is: have they already ordered the chips? Do we have an ETA confirmed by the fab?

As titomane said a few posts ago, those fabs do not hurry up for any customer - lead time for the chips will be anything from 8 to 12 weeks, and we need to assume 12 weeks to be on the safe side. I know how that huge businesses work - if they need to delay your order, they do, and you just can't do anything about it. This happened to Avalon too, just check what he said on his conference talk.

If KnC did not place the order for the chips yet, that's something to be worried about.

Please Bitcoinorama use your direct access to them to ask:

- are the chips ordered?
- if yes, what is the ETA confirmed by the fab?
- if not, why? didn't they reach the funding goal they needed for the order? How far away are them to place the order?

We ever get an answer to this??

[btceic]

Sorry guys, back to reality - most important question now is: have they already ordered the chips? Do we have an ETA confirmed by the fab?

As titomane said a few posts ago, those fabs do not hurry up for any customer - lead time for the chips will be anything from 8 to 12 weeks, and we need to assume 12 weeks to be on the safe side. I know how that huge businesses work - if they need to delay your order, they do, and you just can't do anything about it. This happened to Avalon too, just check what he said on his conference talk.

If KnC did not place the order for the chips yet, that's something to be worried about.

Please Bitcoinorama use your direct access to them to ask:

- are the chips ordered?
- if yes, what is the ETA confirmed by the fab?
- if not, why? didn't they reach the funding goal they needed for the order? How far away are them to place the order?

We ever get an answer to this??

KnC is not using avalon chips as far as I know.

[Rampion]

Sorry guys, back to reality - most important question now is: have they already ordered the chips? Do we have an ETA confirmed by the fab?

As titomane said a few posts ago, those fabs do not hurry up for any customer - lead time for the chips will be anything from 8 to 12 weeks, and we need to assume 12 weeks to be on the safe side. I know how that huge businesses work - if they need to delay your order, they do, and you just can't do anything about it. This happened to Avalon too, just check what he said on his conference talk.

If KnC did not place the order for the chips yet, that's something to be worried about.

Please Bitcoinorama use your direct access to them to ask:

- are the chips ordered?
- if yes, what is the ETA confirmed by the fab?
- if not, why? didn't they reach the funding goal they needed for the order? How far away are them to place the order?

We ever get an answer to this??

No, not yet, hope Bitcoinorama can get those answers for next week.

[Rampion]

Sorry guys, back to reality - most important question now is: have they already ordered the chips? Do we have an ETA confirmed by the fab?

As titomane said a few posts ago, those fabs do not hurry up for any customer - lead time for the chips will be anything from 8 to 12 weeks, and we need to assume 12 weeks to be on the safe side. I know how that huge businesses work - if they need to delay your order, they do, and you just can't do anything about it. This happened to Avalon too, just check what he said on his conference talk.

If KnC did not place the order for the chips yet, that's something to be worried about.

Please Bitcoinorama use your direct access to them to ask:

- are the chips ordered?
- if yes, what is the ETA confirmed by the fab?
- if not, why? didn't they reach the funding goal they needed for the order? How far away are them to place the order?

We ever get an answer to this??

KnC is not using avalon chips as far as I know.

Completely false but i guess you know it and you are just trolling.

[btceic]

Sorry guys, back to reality - most important question now is: have they already ordered the chips? Do we have an ETA confirmed by the fab?

As titomane said a few posts ago, those fabs do not hurry up for any customer - lead time for the chips will be anything from 8 to 12 weeks, and we need to assume 12 weeks to be on the safe side. I know how that huge businesses work - if they need to delay your order, they do, and you just can't do anything about it. This happened to Avalon too, just check what he said on his conference talk.

If KnC did not place the order for the chips yet, that's something to be worried about.

Please Bitcoinorama use your direct access to them to ask:

- are the chips ordered?
- if yes, what is the ETA confirmed by the fab?
- if not, why? didn't they reach the funding goal they needed for the order? How far away are them to place the order?

We ever get an answer to this??

KnC is not using avalon chips as far as I know.

Completely false but i guess you know it and you are just trolling.

oops!,
I was thinking of terrahash! my bad not trolling at all.

[Bitcoinorama]

Ok you'll get your answer next week. They've said there's a spec update then.

[Phoenix1969]

You are a true trooper Bitcoinorama, thanks for all your time typing here, letting us underprivileged folks "in on the scoop" Your dedication & professional manner are highly appreciated.

[Bitcoinorama]

Mate all I do is fire an email, well and took a trip out there, but you don't have to be privileged to ask anyone anything!

[Bagpipe]

Mate all I do is fire an email, well and took a trip out there, but you don't have to be privileged to ask anyone anything!

e-mails of some people get more answers than e-mails of other people, that is if other people get any response at all.

[nightengale]

Mate all I do is fire an email, well and took a trip out there, but you don't have to be privileged to ask anyone anything!

e-mails of some people get more answers than e-mails of other people, that is if other people get any response at all.

The one email I've sent, they've responded to. Are you having an issue with unresponded emails? If so, speak up...

[Kuroth]

I sent them 4 emails in 2 days and they were always very fast to reply so far..

[Bitcoinorama]

I think people forget a few of things and are generally impatient;

1) Sweden is GMT +1, and people need to sleep, even if they are up at 4am and finish whenever...
2) Sam and Andreas handle ALL the admin currently themselves. That's liasing with lawyers, accountants, manufacturers, logistics, Swedish gov whilst keeping on top of ORSoC's contribution. That's a hell of a juggling act. They aren't just glued to the forum or email. Whilst they have a number to call and they do answer, that number is specific to customers, they have separate numbers for the production side obviously, and that takes precident clearly.
3) They have patient families, so cut them some slack. Wives and kids, that prob only see them briefly, if at all daily currently.
4) You won't get to email the ORSoC side, they are kept completely separate from the customers and generic admin crap. Some Q's like the ones I recently sent on behalf of 'Brontosaurus' need to be cleared and answered by ORSoC. If it gives away any competitive advantage, they won't answer publicly, not at this early stage in the game, and despite your impatience, if you are a genuine customer and not a competitor trolling, you wouldn't want them to either, so take assurance on the fact they are a real engineering firm with ASIC pros who know what they are doing, and know what they can and cannot answer right now.
5) They are not hiding anything, they are as transparent as possible, just understandably damn busy as you well want them to be, so chill! This week there is more info!

[idee2013]

I think people forget a few of things and are generally impatient;

1) Sweden is GMT +1, and people need to sleep, even if they are up at 4am and finish whenever...
2) Sam and Andreas handle ALL the admin currently themselves. That's liasing with lawyers, accountants, manufacturers, logistics, Swedish gov whilst keeping on top of ORSoC's contribution. That's a hell of a juggling act. They aren't just glued to the forum or email. Whilst they have a number to call and they do answer, that number is specific to customers, they have separate numbers for the production side obviously, and that takes precident clearly.
3) They have patient families, so cut them some slack. Wives and kids, that prob only see them briefly, if at all daily currently.
4) You won't get to email the ORSoC side, they are kept completely separate from the customers and generic admin crap. Some Q's like the ones I recently sent on behalf of 'Brontosaurus' need to be cleared and answered by ORSoC. If it gives away any competitive advantage, they won't answer publicly, not at this early stage in the game, and despite your impatience, if you are a genuine customer and not a competitor trolling, you wouldn't want them to either, so take assurance on the fact they are a real engineering firm with ASIC pros who know what they are doing, and know what they can and cannot answer right now.
5) They are not hiding anything, they are as transparent as possible, just understandably damn busy as you well want them to be, so chill! This week there is more info!

+1+1+1..really nothing to say more

[Rampion]

I think people forget a few of things and are generally impatient;

1) Sweden is GMT +1, and people need to sleep, even if they are up at 4am and finish whenever...
2) Sam and Andreas handle ALL the admin currently themselves. That's liasing with lawyers, accountants, manufacturers, logistics, Swedish gov whilst keeping on top of ORSoC's contribution. That's a hell of a juggling act. They aren't just glued to the forum or email. Whilst they have a number to call and they do answer, that number is specific to customers, they have separate numbers for the production side obviously, and that takes precident clearly.
3) They have patient families, so cut them some slack. Wives and kids, that prob only see them briefly, if at all daily currently.
4) You won't get to email the ORSoC side, they are kept completely separate from the customers and generic admin crap. Some Q's like the ones I recently sent on behalf of 'Brontosaurus' need to be cleared and answered by ORSoC. If it gives away any competitive advantage, they won't answer publicly, not at this early stage in the game, and despite your impatience, if you are a genuine customer and not a competitor trolling, you wouldn't want them to either, so take assurance on the fact they are a real engineering firm with ASIC pros who know what they are doing, and know what they can and cannot answer right now.
5) They are not hiding anything, they are as transparent as possible, just understandably damn busy as you well want them to be, so chill! This week there is more info!

You may remember that I wrote a couple of times about my main concern being their ability to scale.

The fact that only two persons are handling such a huge and time-sensitive project from the administrative and customer service side confirms my concerns.

I hope they can have the proper team to manage all the stages of this project, otherwise there will be problems.

[Bitcoinorama]

I think people forget a few of things and are generally impatient;

1) Sweden is GMT +1, and people need to sleep, even if they are up at 4am and finish whenever...
2) Sam and Andreas handle ALL the admin currently themselves. That's liasing with lawyers, accountants, manufacturers, logistics, Swedish gov whilst keeping on top of ORSoC's contribution. That's a hell of a juggling act. They aren't just glued to the forum or email. Whilst they have a number to call and they do answer, that number is specific to customers, they have separate numbers for the production side obviously, and that takes precident clearly.
3) They have patient families, so cut them some slack. Wives and kids, that prob only see them briefly, if at all daily currently.
4) You won't get to email the ORSoC side, they are kept completely separate from the customers and generic admin crap. Some Q's like the ones I recently sent on behalf of 'Brontosaurus' need to be cleared and answered by ORSoC. If it gives away any competitive advantage, they won't answer publicly, not at this early stage in the game, and despite your impatience, if you are a genuine customer and not a competitor trolling, you wouldn't want them to either, so take assurance on the fact they are a real engineering firm with ASIC pros who know what they are doing, and know what they can and cannot answer right now.
5) They are not hiding anything, they are as transparent as possible, just understandably damn busy as you well want them to be, so chill! This week there is more info!

You may remember that I wrote a couple of times about my main concern being their ability to scale.

The fact that only two persons are handling such a huge and time-sensitive project from the administrative and customer service side confirms my concerns.

I hope they can have the proper team to manage all the stages of this project, otherwise there will be problems.

Yes, that takes financing, which they now have. Scalability is something Andreas and Sam have plenty of experience in and was something I personally went specifically wanting to see evidence of...

[Slartybardfast]

Just seen over on kickstarter that the documentary has reached it funding goal.  Well done to them.

[Phoenix1969]

Wow, that was fast indeed!

[Coin_fan]

Hey Guys,

Just wanted to say thank you to Bitcoinorama for posts and work...  


Also, more info is here:

http://www.facebook.com/Kncminer

http://twitter.com/kncminer

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3qAq0c98qnX8N-3_PFW9cQ

and of course here:

http://www.kncminer.com/

PLUS DO NOT BE SHY to click "Like it" - if you like my comment here https://www.facebook.com/Kncminer/posts/622844807727319?notif_t=like

[nightengale]

Alright, on a wing and a prayer, I'm in for order #26xx for one Jupiter.

Hopefully this is legit, my marriage may depend on it...     

Does this mean there are 2,600 orders ahead of mine, or does anyone know if the order numbers started at 0?

[dhenson]

I ordered in the first 45 minutes and received order #149.  I think it started at #1, though that doesn't mean they were all paid.

[Kuroth]

Alright, on a wing and a prayer, I'm in for order #26xx for one Jupiter.

Hopefully this is legit, my marriage may depend on it...    

Does this mean there are 2,600 orders ahead of mine, or does anyone know if the order numbers started at 0?

I ordered 2 days ago and my order number is 25## so that sounds about right..


For what its worth I emailed them several questions before I ordered..

One of my questions was cancel Pre order...  They told me I could cancel my pre order at anytime up until it shipped to me..

Hope this is true.. And hope I never have to ask to cancel my pre order(That they start shipping in Sept).

I was told my order number would ship in Oct..

[Phoenix1969]

Today is KNC's 3 week anniversary for accepting Pre-orders... I'm eagerly awaiting the official PAID, "Corrected" Que list, as well as the LOTTO results like a kid who doesn't know what day Christmas is going to be this year!   any time...   

[Phoenix1969]

I ordered in the first 45 minutes and received order #149.  I think it started at #1, though that doesn't mean they were all paid.

I was actually the very first PayPal order, which is order #53.
I used A goog add-on site monitor to alert me of any changes on the site... worked nicely... Sam & I conversed a bit about tweaking the paypal process, as I was the "Test"
Prior orders are most likely non-public.

[dhenson]

I was actually the very first PayPal order, which is order #53.
I used A goog add-on site monitor to alert me of any changes on the site... worked nicely... Sam & I conversed a bit about tweaking the paypal process, as I was the "Test"
Prior orders are most likely non-public.

Thanks for the info, that gives me hope that I'll be in the first day of shipments ;-)

[szmarco]

Bitcoinorama,KNC should release some new information like this below.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=242411.0

[Bitcoinorama]

Bitcoinorama,KNC should release some new information like this below.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=242411.0

Perhaps, but you overlook one tiny, but definitive requirement. They would need to be in possession of their chips already, unless you want a picture of a finger...?

[szmarco]

Bitcoinorama,KNC should release some new information like this below.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=242411.0

Perhaps, but you overlook one tiny, but definitive requirement. They would need to be in possession of their chips already, unless you want a picture of a finger...?

there are more pics.
http://zeptobars.ru/en/read/bitfury-bitcoin-mining-chip

[Bitcoinorama]

Bitcoinorama,KNC should release some new information like this below.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=242411.0

Perhaps, but you overlook one tiny, but definitive requirement. They would need to be in possession of their chips already, unless you want a picture of a finger...?

there are more pics.
http://zeptobars.ru/en/read/bitfury-bitcoin-mining-chip

I've seen them already today in a Russian forum with google translator. They look good, flower image is a touch.

[webjoe]

Huh? Aren't these are the Bitfury chips - not the KNC's?

there are more pics.
http://zeptobars.ru/en/read/bitfury-bitcoin-mining-chip

[Bitcoinorama]

Huh? Aren't these are the Bitfury chips - not the KNC's?

there are more pics.
http://zeptobars.ru/en/read/bitfury-bitcoin-mining-chip

Obviously...

[Bitcoinorama]

we got news

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-22

News update
Main PageNewsCommon

It’s time again for another newsletter from us. Today’s newsletter will have the following sections
Performance improvements to Jupiter and Saturn
Power usage
Unpaid orders
Lottery results
Queue position update
 

Performance improvements to Jupiter and Saturn

 
Here at KnCMiner we have always stated that the final performance of our machines has not been set in stone. We simply do not want to overpromise and then have to correct ourselves later.
The performance increase that we can announce today is based on direct feedback from the chip manufacturer who have been working with us for some time now. They have come back to us confirming the performance improvements in our RTL code.
So it is with great pleasure that we can finally announce our Jupiter is now a 400 GH/s device and therefore Saturn is a 200 GH/s device.
We are now so far down the chip development path that we can safely reveal these figures. There will be further announcements from us about the chip manufacture soon, and we will keep you all informed of all progress
 
Power usage details

 
We have previously specified the power consumption of the Jupiter device at a 1000 watts. We have now received indication from our chip manufacturer that this may be lower.
This is where we need to refer you to our statement of under promise and over deliver.
So until you hear from us again on this, we would like to reaffirm that Jupiter will be less than 1000 watts and Saturn less than 500 watts.
 
Unpaid orders

 
There has been some confusion about our ordering process. While we may admit that the pre-order registration, 7 day payment window, and even the wording on our site have added to the confusion.
 
We would like to make it clear that orders which are not paid will not be given a place in the shipping queue until they are successfully paid for.
All orders are kept in your account history and we have not removed any active (New) orders. We will shortly begin removing any unpaid orders from our system if they remain unpaid for more than 7 days.
 
So for those of you that have been confused by the order/queue/payment process. You will have a few more days to pay for your orders before they are removed. If you have any concerns on this please email us at info@kncminer.com
 
Lottery results

 
The lottery has now been drawn. The winners have been announced, with their permission on our webpage www.kncminer.com.
 
Queue position update

 
We know you have all been waiting for the shipping queue position update and over the next few days we will be adding a comment to your orders which will give you the day that your boxes will be made, tested and shipped.
For example Day 1/Day 2/Day 3. This will indicate how far from the start of shipping your order will dispatched. This update will not apply to new orders and will only apply to the orders which were based on pre-order registration. All other orders will be dispatched in the order of payment.
 
Chip Progress report

 
The more technical audience amongst our customers have been asking for a lot details on the chips we will use. The information we have available to you today is that Jupiter will be a 4 chip design and Saturn a 2 chip design.
This means that we can achieve a minimum of 100GH/s per chip. Which we think most people will agree, puts us far ahead of our current competitors.
Our ASIC package selection has been optimized, allowing the use of a smaller package. The selected package is a 55mm x 55mm HFCBGA package (2046 ball count), optimized for maximum thermal characteristics.
 
Further news

 
We are still on track to meet our deadlines of shipping the first boxes in September. We will be providing regular updates in newsletters here and on our site. www.kncminer.com so keep checking regularly so you don’t miss out on any updates.
Thanks
KnCMiner team

[Bagpipe]

This is the chip they are going to use.

http://www.asetwn.com.tw/content/2-5-3.html

And one with pictures (the one in the metal can) HFC-BGA 52.5x52.5mm
http://www.asetwn.com.tw/content/12.html

"Heat spreaders made of Cu with Ni plating or Aluminum, Ceramic, AlSiC..."

Yay, we're gonna have a CPU! much like the intel LGA package CPU, with huuuge number of pads
We're gonna love it!

Finally some company which understands things, not like the cretins at BFL who first chose all plastic packaging, which then smoked due to the heat and then chose bare die on 0.5mm BGA, and they plan to "neatly" arrange them in a grid, OLOLOL... (they imagine the chip surfaces will be in the same orientation and nothing bad will happen.... just try it...)

EDIT: yes, I believe they had already done a chip in that package, the one they were talking about, which I won't get into talking about.

[J35st3r]

WOW! 1000 Watts over 4 chips is 250Watt per chip (less a bit for power conversion etc), say 150W TDP? This is definitely in the ballpark of high-end graphics/cpu thermal design. Mucho kudos if they get it right. 

[titomane]

we got news

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-22

News update

 
Unpaid orders

 
There has been some confusion about our ordering process. While we may admit that the pre-order registration, 7 day payment window, and even the wording on our site have added to the confusion.
 
We would like to make it clear that orders which are not paid will not be given a place in the shipping queue until they are successfully paid for.
All orders are kept in your account history and we have not removed any active (New) orders. We will shortly begin removing any unpaid orders from our system if they remain unpaid for more than 7 days.
 
So for those of you that have been confused by the order/queue/payment process. You will have a few more days to pay for your orders before they are removed. If you have any concerns on this please email us at info@kncminer.com
 
KnCMiner team

If buyers do not get paid in time. They want to get on the boat now. It is very unfair. They can not keep the queue. What are the advantages of first-time buyers who have helped the project?
Fair is their order is from 87 * lowest never.
Who wanted the device moved heaven and earth to pay. The did not wait now.

Thanks

[idee2013]

This is the chip they are going to use.

http://www.asetwn.com.tw/content/2-5-3.html

And one with pictures (the one in the metal can) HFC-BGA 52.5x52.5mm
http://www.asetwn.com.tw/content/12.html

"Heat spreaders made of Cu with Ni plating or Aluminum, Ceramic, AlSiC..."

Yay, we're gonna have a CPU! much like the intel LGA package CPU, with huuuge number of pads
We're gonna love it!

Finally some company which understands things, not like the cretins at BFL who first chose all plastic packaging, which then smoked due to the heat and then chose bare die on 0.5mm BGA, and they plan to "neatly" arrange them in a grid, OLOLOL... (they imagine the chip surfaces will be in the same orientation and nothing bad will happen.... just try it...)

EDIT: yes, I believe they had already done a chip in that package, the one they were talking about, which I won't get into talking about.

from where do you know that? have you googled for chip size and the HFC-BGA name?

[dacman61]

This is the chip they are going to use.

http://www.asetwn.com.tw/content/2-5-3.html

And one with pictures (the one in the metal can) HFC-BGA 52.5x52.5mm
http://www.asetwn.com.tw/content/12.html

"Heat spreaders made of Cu with Ni plating or Aluminum, Ceramic, AlSiC..."

Yay, we're gonna have a CPU! much like the intel LGA package CPU, with huuuge number of pads
We're gonna love it!

Finally some company which understands things, not like the cretins at BFL who first chose all plastic packaging, which then smoked due to the heat and then chose bare die on 0.5mm BGA, and they plan to "neatly" arrange them in a grid, OLOLOL... (they imagine the chip surfaces will be in the same orientation and nothing bad will happen.... just try it...)

EDIT: yes, I believe they had already done a chip in that package, the one they were talking about, which I won't get into talking about.

from where do you know that? have you googled for chip size and the HFC-BGA name?

idee2013,

Check out this link... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by-je8XRCdY

[sickpig]

This is the chip they are going to use.

http://www.asetwn.com.tw/content/2-5-3.html

And one with pictures (the one in the metal can) HFC-BGA 52.5x52.5mm
http://www.asetwn.com.tw/content/12.html

"Heat spreaders made of Cu with Ni plating or Aluminum, Ceramic, AlSiC..."

Yay, we're gonna have a CPU! much like the intel LGA package CPU, with huuuge number of pads
We're gonna love it!

Finally some company which understands things, not like the cretins at BFL who first chose all plastic packaging, which then smoked due to the heat and then chose bare die on 0.5mm BGA, and they plan to "neatly" arrange them in a grid, OLOLOL... (they imagine the chip surfaces will be in the same orientation and nothing bad will happen.... just try it...)

EDIT: yes, I believe they had already done a chip in that package, the one they were talking about, which I won't get into talking about.

from where do you know that? have you googled for chip size and the HFC-BGA name?

idee2013,

Check out this link... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by-je8XRCdY

I've only given it a quick glance to it but I'm not able to understand how Bagpipe was capable of getting both manufacturer name and exact chip model from the video... it could be me

[suryc]

Did anyone get their order updated with a queue position yet or is it too soon to expect that?

Queue position update

We know you have all been waiting for the shipping queue position update and over the next few days we will be adding a comment to your orders which will give you the day that your boxes will be made, tested and shipped.

For example Day 1/Day 2/Day 3. This will indicate how far from the start of shipping your order will dispatched. This update will not apply to new orders and will only apply to the orders which were based on pre-order registration. All other orders will be dispatched in the order of payment.

[dwdoc]

Not yet, but they just announced the lottery winners and said queue update would follow so hopefully this week...

[dhenson]

Did anyone get their order updated with a queue position yet or is it too soon to expect that?

This seems like a small issue, but you have to remember that the folks at KnC are ultra careful to not do anything that could be conceived as underhanded.  They won't post the queue positions until they are absolutely positive they are correct.

Kind of endearing really.

[mp3wizard]

guys, Have been thinking about ordering a Jupiter unit for the last week, if i'm positive i think there's still some room for me to jump on the bandwagon, if i'm pessimistic i think i might of missed the boat, considering i'd be one of the last to receive the unit and the difficulty rating.

What do you think? Am I too late??

[Bitcoinorama]

Honestly don't know, with respect to this price point. Prices will become more competitively priced from all manufacturers, they have to, the beauty of increased competition. It depends whether you want to wait for that to happen. Certainly by Christmas it shall have, so can you wait a month or two more for delivery?

For sure, Avalon and ASiCminers offerings are wayy overpriced and have room to manoeuvre. Fried cat is driven by greed and not by giving a mutually reciprocal deal to purchases of ASICminer products. BitSyncom are beginning to show elements of greed, this is yet to be proven undeniably, although the current evidence is concerning. KnC have had to cover NRE which they now have done, they can't drop prices yet though as they have paying customers that need to ROI. My advice is if you are getting into this to hedge and increased future Bitcoin price then that's understandable, though I reckon it will go down before up from ASIC buyers selling to recover ROI. The current price drop is believed to be ASICminer flooding the market with Bitcoins, so you have an idea there. In the very short term there is some benefit to being an early adopter of this tech. Over the medium to long term it will be as profitable as GPU mining is today. Whether the short term lasts beyond September, who knows, but neither you, or I are lucky enough to have backed a current player with ASiCs in hand right now for a reasonable price. (Basically the few BFL and Avalon units currently in the wild that weren't given away to buy journalistic favour. Owning an ASICminer product means you're already out of pocket).

[DPoS]

The power costs of a jupiter or 2 saturns is $3.60 a day. ($.15/kWh)  It will take 5 billion difficulty at today's btc price to make these produce less $$ than what they cost to run.  That's a long time for ROI

I would be happy if I just made $20k profit before next summer and use that to install solar shingles/panels for my home.  Then I can look to buy up cheap ASICs from people who still pay for most of their electric

Think of all the free heat I will have too!!

[mp3wizard]

ok assuming i order today, get my miner in late october, i should be able to make my ROI in under a year shouldn't I?

[canth]

...

For sure, Avalon and ASiCminers offerings are wayy overpriced and have room to manoeuvre. Fried cat is driven by greed and not by giving a mutually reciprocal deal to purchases of ASICminer products. BitSyncom are beginning to show elements of greed, this is yet to be proven undeniably, although the current evidence is concerning. KnC have had to cover NRE which they now have done, they can't drop prices yet though as they have paying customers that need to ROI. ...

For what it's worth, I take issue with the suggestion that AM is somehow motivated by greed more so than any other mining hardware company. AM is one of the few companies with hardware on the shelf that can be purchased, right now. If you compare that to all of the other vendors, do you imagine that the prices for AM hardware should be similar to other vendors? I think not, since mining hardware ROI is nearly entirely reliant on time of delivery.

Prices are dictated by what the market will bear and given the amount of reselling that I see on eBay, ASICMiner could charge even more for their products. I'd suggest we keep the subjective assumptions about greed to ourselves and just discuss whether or not we feel a particular product is worth the price people are willing to pay.

I don't think that KnC is doing business for the betterment of mankind - I presume it's to turn a healthy profit and why not? I'm more interested in honesty and execution than motivation, for any company that's looking for my investment. So far, AM and KnC seem to be fairly similar in that regard.

[rizzman]

...

For sure, Avalon and ASiCminers offerings are wayy overpriced and have room to manoeuvre. Fried cat is driven by greed and not by giving a mutually reciprocal deal to purchases of ASICminer products. BitSyncom are beginning to show elements of greed, this is yet to be proven undeniably, although the current evidence is concerning. KnC have had to cover NRE which they now have done, they can't drop prices yet though as they have paying customers that need to ROI. ...

For what it's worth, I take issue with the suggestion that AM is somehow motivated by greed more so than any other mining hardware company. AM is one of the few companies with hardware on the shelf that can be purchased, right now. If you compare that to all of the other vendors, do you imagine that the prices for AM hardware should be similar to other vendors? I think not, since mining hardware ROI is nearly entirely reliant on time of delivery.

Prices are dictated by what the market will bear and given the amount of reselling that I see on eBay, ASICMiner could charge even more for their products. I'd suggest we keep the subjective assumptions about greed to ourselves and just discuss whether or not we feel a particular product is worth the price people are willing to pay.

I don't think that KnC is doing business for the betterment of mankind - I presume it's to turn a healthy profit and why not? I'm more interested in honesty and execution than motivation, for any company that's looking for my investment. So far, AM and KnC seem to be fairly similar in that regard.

Yes, I agree their motivation does not matter, the execution and how they go about it is more important however Bitcoinorama does have a point. These companies essentially have us by the balls when it comes to the tech that driving Bitcoin right now, and it shows that they know this in the pricing and customer service... as far as all the Ebay reselling, you have people buying 300Mh usb sticks for $200-$350 a pop, that will never see that profit return before the big guns come out, you can't possibly write this off as "Just what the market is willing to bare", there is clear abuse by the manufacturers and resellers going on.

The "Established" companies no longer look at us as the people supporting their livelihood. In most cases, they look at the subject as if they are doing "us" a favor by letting us by their equipment, and that we should just shutup and be greatful they are giving it to us at all... Just look at the BFL_Jody blogs below, read this thread forward... Your mind is about to be Blow'n...

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/183-thursday-6-6-2012.html

There are clear abuses by those who hold position in the market and it is a welcome site to see the new kid on the block challenging this. I can't wait to see how attitudes / pricing changes when KnC starts pumping their rigs... I suspect they're will be a lot of customer relations training classes in BFL Jody's future, as well as an emphasis on customer service in the future which is much needed. Until then, we wait.

[bitpop]

Damn fuck bfl. We need competitors like knc to put them out of business soon.

[rizzman]

Damn fuck bfl. We need competitors like knc to put them out of business soon.

+1E 5Million

[bitpop]

The comments are despicable too. Glad most miners are like those idiots and won't even be able to get them working or find real companies like we did.

[Bitcoinorama]

...

For sure, Avalon and ASiCminers offerings are wayy overpriced and have room to manoeuvre. Fried cat is driven by greed and not by giving a mutually reciprocal deal to purchases of ASICminer products. BitSyncom are beginning to show elements of greed, this is yet to be proven undeniably, although the current evidence is concerning. KnC have had to cover NRE which they now have done, they can't drop prices yet though as they have paying customers that need to ROI. ...

For what it's worth, I take issue with the suggestion that AM is somehow motivated by greed more so than any other mining hardware company. AM is one of the few companies with hardware on the shelf that can be purchased, right now. If you compare that to all of the other vendors, do you imagine that the prices for AM hardware should be similar to other vendors? I think not, since mining hardware ROI is nearly entirely reliant on time of delivery.

Prices are dictated by what the market will bear and given the amount of reselling that I see on eBay, ASICMiner could charge even more for their products. I'd suggest we keep the subjective assumptions about greed to ourselves and just discuss whether or not we feel a particular product is worth the price people are willing to pay.

I don't think that KnC is doing business for the betterment of mankind - I presume it's to turn a healthy profit and why not? I'm more interested in honesty and execution than motivation, for any company that's looking for my investment. So far, AM and KnC seem to be fairly similar in that regard.

Canth, KnC are running a business like professionals, of course they want to turn a profit, but they are serious about looking after their customers and the a bitcoin ecosystem, of which without they have no business. Sam is very keen on bettering Bitcoin and Bitcoins acceptance, as this works hand in hand with KnC and KnC offers a platform to do this, hence 'the life on Bitcoin' film. Without this Bitcoin will struggle to appreciate in value. As I said they have a lot of cool ideas beyond Jupiter which given everybody, especially their customers a great deal, and it's not all directly mining related.

What is ASICminer doing for bitcoins value? currently they are dumping Bitcoins into the exchange, flooding the market and suppressing the BTC value.

Back on point KnC have taken pre-orders, they have future predicted a sensible price point that allow NRE to be covered, whilst allowing customers to maximise returns in an uncertain environment competietively. They have purposely structured this to be fair to their customers. That price point becoming less attractive is out of their hands, they are making minimal profit on this first revision. Only when ASiCs are made after the first round, can they start to make some cash, and at that point can be more flexible with future equipment and pricing. This is done with the specific intention to be fair, give all parties a great deal, return ROI for the company and the consumer and build a loyal customer base.

ASICminer are in a privileged position, which they are wantonly abusing, setting the price with equipment in hand and no NRE to cover whilst predicting future hashrate competitiveness and hedging against it by giving their consumers a bum deal where they will never see a return and all future monies earned are given to ASICminer straight away. Only 'slashing' prices by enough to continue charging the consumer a price they knowingly will never recover.

Free market, eBay sales are uniformed buyers making dumb choices. I'm a capitalist, and I know some very, very wealthy guys that put ASICminer in the shade and will do for a very, very long time. They own obscene property portfolios and some are involved in disruptive finance ventures. They always, always ensure everyone involved in a deal compensated proportionately and fairly, why? Because you will burn your connections and customers and repeat business very quickly if you leave an unhappy aftertaste. A deal is a deal only of all parties are content and rewarded fairly. You get to make that mistake once.

ASIC miners shares started around 0.84BTC, their perceived value is currently around 3.5BTC. It is perceived by those willing to purchase ownership. ASICminers value is still around 0.84 BTC as that is all they're owed for themselves to spend. The 4x increase on resale has been well received by the original investors. New ones won't see that. At a dividend payout of 0.025BTC on average every two weeks, it would take 5.4 years to ROi on ASICminer shares currently.

0.025 BTC x 26 periods = 0.65 BTC a year.
3.5 BTC per share / 0.65 BTC dividends a year = 5.4 years ROI.

A blade and a USB stick will never ROI. ASICminer have purposely put their customers in that position. They own 25% of the Bitcoin network and as you can see with the current BTC price they are able to manipulate the market. They are too dominant and act without integrity, already having achieved centralisation and are abusing their power. They are one of the biggest current threats to Bitcoin.

All anyone has done is create a current monopoly, with only a hopeful oligopoly as a positive outcome. Fried Cat has risen to extreme wealth with no money down and rewards his initial investors marginally and screws over anyone else that succeeds on the basis the original investors have been happy with their investment. Now all he has to do is claim further wealth for himself give marginal dividends that don't amount to much and offer no value to anyone else. You take issue with the suggestion that this is greed?!!

[rizzman]

The comments are despicable too. Glad most miners are like those idiots and won't even be able to get them working or find real companies like we did.

Yea... It's rather disgusting seeing the suck-ups in the comment area stroking her. Like its going to make a difference in their order queue... its like peasants begging for just a few more crumbs...

LoL..

I can imagine a play being made off of this...

Peasant - "Perhaps the queen is feeling generous today?"

BFL Jody - "Yes... have a Jalapeno..." "You will find... that I am kind.."

[bitpop]

We call them AFCs

[Rampion]

ASIC miners shares started around 0.84BTC, their perceived value is currently around 3.5BTC. It is perceived by those willing to purchase ownership. ASICminers value is still around 0.84 BTC as that is all they're owed for themselves to spend. The 4x increase on resale has been well received by the original investors. New ones won't see that. At a dividend payout of 0.025BTC on average every two weeks, it would take 5.4 years to ROi on ASICminer shares currently.

Sorry, where did you take the number in bold? You have to be quite new in the scene if you don't know that ASIC miner shares started at EXACTLY 0.1BTC (that was the IPO price), and their shares were traded below 0.84BTC for quite a few weeks even after they started deploying. To be very concrete I just looked into my PM history for you, and exactly on February 11th three members of these forums (rxw, punin and scrypt) offered to me ASICminer shares between 0.36BTC and 0.5BTC each. I remember very well that moment because I turned their offers down as those prices looked to me "a tad expensive". Quite a big mistake, as I was very interested in buying, but I didn't. But yeah, hindsight is 20/20.

Going back to the real world figures, the increase on resale of ASICminer shares is x35 (and going up), not the laughable x4 you mentioned.

[dan99]

Have to agreed Asicminer is dumping the shares... after given a good bashing.

[Bitcoinorama]

ASIC miners shares started around 0.84BTC, their perceived value is currently around 3.5BTC. It is perceived by those willing to purchase ownership. ASICminers value is still around 0.84 BTC as that is all they're owed for themselves to spend. The 4x increase on resale has been well received by the original investors. New ones won't see that. At a dividend payout of 0.025BTC on average every two weeks, it would take 5.4 years to ROi on ASICminer shares currently.

Sorry, where did you take the number in bold? You have to be quite new in the scene if you don't know that ASIC miner shares started at EXACTLY 0.1BTC (that was the IPO price), and their shares were traded below 0.84BTC for quite a few weeks even after they started deploying. To be very concrete I just looked into my PM history for you, and exactly on February 11th three members of these forums (rxw, punin and scrypt) offered to me ASICminer shares between 0.36BTC and 0.5BTC each. I remember very well that moment because I turned their offers down as those prices looked to me "a tad expensive". Quite a big mistake, as I was very interested in buying, but I didn't. But yeah, hindsight is 20/20.

Going back to the real world figures, the increase on resale of ASICminer shares is x35 (and going up), not the laughable x4 you mentioned.

It was in a thread I read today, just before replying.

[Rampion]

ASIC miners shares started around 0.84BTC, their perceived value is currently around 3.5BTC. It is perceived by those willing to purchase ownership. ASICminers value is still around 0.84 BTC as that is all they're owed for themselves to spend. The 4x increase on resale has been well received by the original investors. New ones won't see that. At a dividend payout of 0.025BTC on average every two weeks, it would take 5.4 years to ROi on ASICminer shares currently.

Sorry, where did you take the number in bold? You have to be quite new in the scene if you don't know that ASIC miner shares started at EXACTLY 0.1BTC (that was the IPO price), and their shares were traded below 0.84BTC for quite a few weeks even after they started deploying. To be very concrete I just looked into my PM history for you, and exactly on February 11th three members of these forums (rxw, punin and scrypt) offered to me ASICminer shares between 0.36BTC and 0.5BTC each. I remember very well that moment because I turned their offers down as those prices looked to me "a tad expensive". Quite a big mistake, as I was very interested in buying, but I didn't. But yeah, hindsight is 20/20.

Going back to the real world figures, the increase on resale of ASICminer shares is x35 (and going up), not the laughable x4 you mentioned.

It was in a thread I read today, just before replying.

IPO price for ASIC miner was 0.1BTC, and they did sell less than they initially expected. ASICMiner is very probably the best investment ever in the Bitcoin world for those who bought at (or close to) IPO price.

[Bitcoinorama]

ASIC miners shares started around 0.84BTC, their perceived value is currently around 3.5BTC. It is perceived by those willing to purchase ownership. ASICminers value is still around 0.84 BTC as that is all they're owed for themselves to spend. The 4x increase on resale has been well received by the original investors. New ones won't see that. At a dividend payout of 0.025BTC on average every two weeks, it would take 5.4 years to ROi on ASICminer shares currently.

Sorry, where did you take the number in bold? You have to be quite new in the scene if you don't know that ASIC miner shares started at EXACTLY 0.1BTC (that was the IPO price), and their shares were traded below 0.84BTC for quite a few weeks even after they started deploying. To be very concrete I just looked into my PM history for you, and exactly on February 11th three members of these forums (rxw, punin and scrypt) offered to me ASICminer shares between 0.36BTC and 0.5BTC each. I remember very well that moment because I turned their offers down as those prices looked to me "a tad expensive". Quite a big mistake, as I was very interested in buying, but I didn't. But yeah, hindsight is 20/20.

Going back to the real world figures, the increase on resale of ASICminer shares is x35 (and going up), not the laughable x4 you mentioned.

It was in a thread I read today, just before replying.

IPO price for ASIC miner was 0.1BTC, and they did sell less than they initially expected. ASICMiner is very probably the best investment ever in the Bitcoin world for those who bought at (or close to) IPO price.

Yes, agreed, at that time, but now it is a bloated greed orientated, danger harvesting 25% of the coins awarded giving it the ability and power to suppress BTC market value (which appears to explain the current trend), and opens the doors to all sorts of price manipulation and preferential buybacks. This is not healthy for Bitcoin at all...

[dwdoc]

Excuse me but what does this have to do with KNCminer's open day?
Time to lock this thread?

[rizzman]

Excuse me but what does this have to do with KNCminer's open day?
Time to lock this thread?

Time to lock your face! 

[dan99]

ASIC miners shares started around 0.84BTC, their perceived value is currently around 3.5BTC. It is perceived by those willing to purchase ownership. ASICminers value is still around 0.84 BTC as that is all they're owed for themselves to spend. The 4x increase on resale has been well received by the original investors. New ones won't see that. At a dividend payout of 0.025BTC on average every two weeks, it would take 5.4 years to ROi on ASICminer shares currently.

Sorry, where did you take the number in bold? You have to be quite new in the scene if you don't know that ASIC miner shares started at EXACTLY 0.1BTC (that was the IPO price), and their shares were traded below 0.84BTC for quite a few weeks even after they started deploying. To be very concrete I just looked into my PM history for you, and exactly on February 11th three members of these forums (rxw, punin and scrypt) offered to me ASICminer shares between 0.36BTC and 0.5BTC each. I remember very well that moment because I turned their offers down as those prices looked to me "a tad expensive". Quite a big mistake, as I was very interested in buying, but I didn't. But yeah, hindsight is 20/20.

Going back to the real world figures, the increase on resale of ASICminer shares is x35 (and going up), not the laughable x4 you mentioned.

It was in a thread I read today, just before replying.

IPO price for ASIC miner was 0.1BTC, and they did sell less than they initially expected. ASICMiner is very probably the best investment ever in the Bitcoin world for those who bought at (or close to) IPO price.

Yes, agreed, at that time, but now it is a bloated greed orientated, danger harvesting 25% of the coins awarded giving it the ability and power to suppress BTC market value (which appears to explain the current trend), and opens the doors to all sorts of price manipulation and preferential buybacks. This is not healthy for Bitcoin at all...

Asicminer is greedy and their time will come.

[DPoS]

ASIC miners shares started around 0.84BTC, their perceived value is currently around 3.5BTC. It is perceived by those willing to purchase ownership. ASICminers value is still around 0.84 BTC as that is all they're owed for themselves to spend. The 4x increase on resale has been well received by the original investors. New ones won't see that. At a dividend payout of 0.025BTC on average every two weeks, it would take 5.4 years to ROi on ASICminer shares currently.

Sorry, where did you take the number in bold? You have to be quite new in the scene if you don't know that ASIC miner shares started at EXACTLY 0.1BTC (that was the IPO price), and their shares were traded below 0.84BTC for quite a few weeks even after they started deploying. To be very concrete I just looked into my PM history for you, and exactly on February 11th three members of these forums (rxw, punin and scrypt) offered to me ASICminer shares between 0.36BTC and 0.5BTC each. I remember very well that moment because I turned their offers down as those prices looked to me "a tad expensive". Quite a big mistake, as I was very interested in buying, but I didn't. But yeah, hindsight is 20/20.

Going back to the real world figures, the increase on resale of ASICminer shares is x35 (and going up), not the laughable x4 you mentioned.

It was in a thread I read today, just before replying.

IPO price for ASIC miner was 0.1BTC, and they did sell less than they initially expected. ASICMiner is very probably the best investment ever in the Bitcoin world for those who bought at (or close to) IPO price.

Yes, agreed, at that time, but now it is a bloated greed orientated, danger harvesting 25% of the coins awarded giving it the ability and power to suppress BTC market value (which appears to explain the current trend), and opens the doors to all sorts of price manipulation and preferential buybacks. This is not healthy for Bitcoin at all...

Asicminer is greedy and their time will come.

How? You wanted them to sell really low and screw their shareholders so the greed shifts to the resellers on ebay?  They had auctions for their blades.. reality bite much?

[Paladin69]

ASIC miners shares started around 0.84BTC, their perceived value is currently around 3.5BTC. It is perceived by those willing to purchase ownership. ASICminers value is still around 0.84 BTC as that is all they're owed for themselves to spend. The 4x increase on resale has been well received by the original investors. New ones won't see that. At a dividend payout of 0.025BTC on average every two weeks, it would take 5.4 years to ROi on ASICminer shares currently.

Sorry, where did you take the number in bold? You have to be quite new in the scene if you don't know that ASIC miner shares started at EXACTLY 0.1BTC (that was the IPO price), and their shares were traded below 0.84BTC for quite a few weeks even after they started deploying. To be very concrete I just looked into my PM history for you, and exactly on February 11th three members of these forums (rxw, punin and scrypt) offered to me ASICminer shares between 0.36BTC and 0.5BTC each. I remember very well that moment because I turned their offers down as those prices looked to me "a tad expensive". Quite a big mistake, as I was very interested in buying, but I didn't. But yeah, hindsight is 20/20.

Going back to the real world figures, the increase on resale of ASICminer shares is x35 (and going up), not the laughable x4 you mentioned.

It was in a thread I read today, just before replying.

IPO price for ASIC miner was 0.1BTC, and they did sell less than they initially expected. ASICMiner is very probably the best investment ever in the Bitcoin world for those who bought at (or close to) IPO price.

Yes, agreed, at that time, but now it is a bloated greed orientated, danger harvesting 25% of the coins awarded giving it the ability and power to suppress BTC market value (which appears to explain the current trend), and opens the doors to all sorts of price manipulation and preferential buybacks. This is not healthy for Bitcoin at all...

Asicminer is greedy and their time will come.

How? You wanted them to sell really low and screw their shareholders so the greed shifts to the resellers on ebay?  They had auctions for their blades.. reality bite much?

It's not the hardware they are selling.  It is the business model of growing a gigantic and centralized solo mining operation with a focus on removing independent miners from the equation.  It's a terrible disease that is spreading faster than people wanted.

btw, I can't remember if I posted in this thread before.  I just wanted to say thank you to BitcoinOrama for all your help in understanding KnC better.  I learned a lot from this thread and you.  I'll have to send some btc your way on my next payout.

[DPoS]

It's not the hardware they are selling.  It is the business model of growing a gigantic and centralized solo mining operation with a focus on removing independent miners from the equation.  It's a terrible disease that is spreading faster than people wanted.

People keep asking for hosting services.. AM provides the same thing for their shareholders.

[tinoki]

"Re: KNC Miner - Jupiter device: which PSU are you guys planning on using?

June 19, 2013, 02:46:06 PM

Reply with quote  #14
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Guys

Sorry for butting in in your discussion but don't buy any power supplies yet.

We will have a large Technical announcement coming next week. Where we will give even more accurate Power figures and GH/s.
It will be a significant announcement which I hope will make all of our customers happy. and no before you ask I wont reveal any details before that newsletter goes out Smiley

again please don't buy a 1200W power supply you simply will not need one that powerful or expensive.

Sam  "


Did they order the Asic Chip for production? or still playing with the chip?

[Bitcoinorama]

Looks like Josh is, or isn't almost certainly sure KnC may, or may not meet their deadline...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg2633722#msg2633722

Words from a genuine master in ambiguity, I think, or do I?...

[andrewsg]

I wouldn't touch BFL with a bargepole, but I'm with Josh on this one - otherwise I would be a knc customer. I would be shocked if knc delivered on their promised specs and timing.

[Bitcoinorama]

I wouldn't touch BFL with a bargepole, but I'm with Josh on this one - otherwise I would be a knc customer. I would be shocked if knc delivered on their promised specs and timing.

My purpose in posting was merely to identify the polysemousness in Josh's statement...

[bitpop]

You went over his head

I wouldn't touch BFL with a bargepole, but I'm with Josh on this one - otherwise I would be a knc customer. I would be shocked if knc delivered on their promised specs and timing.

My purpose in posting was merely to identify the polysemousness in Josh's statement...

[Bitcoinorama]

Looks like your votes lead to the creation of a new 100Gh/s model...codenamed: 'Mercury';

https://www.kncminer.com/products/mercury

[szmarco]

when will the KNC order the chips on earth?

[canth]

when will the KNC order the chips on earth?

Heh. Look, they've stated that they expect everything to be ordered when needed to hit the ship date they've committed to. At this point, we have to trust them to execute - it won't help any to push the matter.

[canth]

It's not the hardware they are selling.  It is the business model of growing a gigantic and centralized solo mining operation with a focus on removing independent miners from the equation.  It's a terrible disease that is spreading faster than people wanted.

People keep asking for hosting services.. AM provides the same thing for their shareholders.

This. It doesn't matter whether AM solo mines or uses a pool - they give back ALL of the profits to the shareholders who chose and continue to choose to believe in them.

I'm not going to go into a long defense of AM because it's not the purpose of this thread. I will just say that there are many of us in the community who do not agree that AM is harming BTC or BTC mining as a whole. It would be wise to not bash them since they are the undisputed gold standard for execution when it comes to ASIC hardware production. Vote with your dollars by purchasing other hardware and leave it at that. AM has no intrinsic advantage over any other company and therefore competition will come, hopefully in the form of several companies. As an example, personally I think that AMC (ASIC Mining Cooperative) is a bit of a joke, BUT I sincerely hope they succeed in making hardware so that we'll have choice.

Every time someone brings up some subjective, unsubstantiated opinion about someone's greed, we're going to go down this path. Let's avoid it, OK?

[canth]

Trying to get things back on track. How about this for a speculation topic? All units now list sizes:

Mercury: 160 x 160 x 200*
Saturn: 160 x 160 x 100
Jupiter: 160 x  160 x 200

* looks like this is still erroneously posted from the Jupiter information.

Anyone got a guess as to what this means? 160cm would be immense - bigger than a full size refrigerator. 160mm would appear to be far to small. Thoughts?

[bitpop]

Inches

[canth]

Inches

Lol. So it's 13' x 13' x 17'? I could live in that!

[nubbins]

Inches

Lol. So it's 13' x 13' x 17'? I could live in that!

It'd explain why they chose the names "Jupiter" and "Saturn"

[bitpop]

That would be awesome

[canth]

That would be awesome

Makes for a helluva deal on shipping. 1 small bedroom, cathedral ceiling - international shipping is only $100!

[J35st3r]

Anyone got a guess as to what this means? 160cm would be immense - bigger than a full size refrigerator. 160mm would appear to be far to small. Thoughts?

Millimetres sounds fair (6" x 6" x 4" or 8" in old money), they only have a couple or four ASIC devices inside. Its going to have one helluva fan to blast all the heat out though (a bit like a small fan heater).

[Bitcoinorama]

Inches

Lol. So it's 13' x 13' x 17'? I could live in that!

It'd explain why they chose the names "Jupiter" and "Saturn"

Yes, they have their own gravitational field and the overall size continues to increase as everything that isn't secured including yourselves are drawn towards them!!

[bitpop]

Sounds like that other scam, what was the name again?

[canth]

Anyone got a guess as to what this means? 160cm would be immense - bigger than a full size refrigerator. 160mm would appear to be far to small. Thoughts?

Millimetres sounds fair (6" x 6" x 4" or 8" in old money), they only have a couple or four ASIC devices inside. Its going to have one helluva fan to blast all the heat out though (a bit like a small fan heater).

It'd be extremely cool if it were that small - I'm dubious that they could get that much cooling going through a unit like that. The chip package alone is 55mm x 55mm - there would barely be any room in between heatsinks.

[J35st3r]

It'd be extremely cool if it were that small - I'm dubious that they could get that much cooling going through a unit like that. The chip package alone is 55mm x 55mm - there would barely be any room in between heatsinks.

So its just about the right size. The case will be filled with heatsink and fan, plus power supply I guess (it would be insane to try to feed 12V  from an external power supply at those sort of power levels). Power supplies don't like to run hot though, so they had better take care with the design or else there will be an after-market in replacing dried out capacitors (though that problem may have been solved by now, google capacitor plague).

[Bitcoinorama]

It'd be extremely cool if it were that small - I'm dubious that they could get that much cooling going through a unit like that. The chip package alone is 55mm x 55mm - there would barely be any room in between heatsinks.

So its just about the right size. The case will be filled with heatsink and fan, plus power supply I guess (it would be insane to try to feed 12V  from an external power supply at those sort of power levels). Power supplies don't like to run hot though, so they had better take care with the design or else there will be an after-market in replacing dried out capacitors (though that problem may have been solved by now, google capacitor plague).

Power supply is external...

[J35st3r]

Power supply is external...

Ah, OK. That solves the heat problem then, and makes the case size sensilbe. Any idea if its a standard ATX 12 Volt supply (a connector nightmare) or are they using something custom, eg 48 Volt would make the connector sizing more sensible.

[Bitcoinorama]

Power supply is external...

Ah, OK. That solves the heat problem then, and makes the case size sensilbe. Any idea if its a standard ATX 12 Volt supply (a connector nightmare) or are they using something custom, eg 48 Volt would make the connector sizing more sensible.

They will advise you on PSU choice closer to the time.

It won't be more than 1000w for the largest model.

They don't supply PSU because of the issues some are having with customs.

[J35st3r]

They will advise you on PSU choice closer to the time.
It won't be more than 1000w for the largest model.
They don't supply PSU because of the issues some are having with customs.

Well 48 Volt makes more sense than 12 Volt (getting on for 100Amps at 1000W), and they are fairly easily obtainable (a quick google search  suggests around $200 or less). I wouldn't want to have the multiple connectors of a standard ATX PSU to deal with (too much risk of overloading if they come loose). Just have to wait and see.

[bitpop]

It's standard psu

[runeks]

Cheers buddy! ^^

NOTE: I'm just repeating the tail end of that big post above, as scrolling past fast may mean you miss the Mars video link:

Mars Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgNPIY9L8s4&feature=youtu.be

Enjoy!

(Note: This has been freakin' exhausting!!)

what was that?!?!?!? heh, i noticed that on the right hand side of the screen just above the temperature monitor it said "Organofcorti". what was that about?

Looks like he has BitMinter's Twitter feed open in the background: https://twitter.com/BitMinter/status/343847675407527937

[Bitcoinorama]

Cheers buddy! ^^

NOTE: I'm just repeating the tail end of that big post above, as scrolling past fast may mean you miss the Mars video link:

Mars Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgNPIY9L8s4&feature=youtu.be

Enjoy!

(Note: This has been freakin' exhausting!!)

what was that?!?!?!? heh, i noticed that on the right hand side of the screen just above the temperature monitor it said "Organofcorti". what was that about?

Looks like he has BitMinter's Twitter feed open in the background: https://twitter.com/BitMinter/status/343847675407527937

Yeah that had been bugging me! I figured it out eventually, thanks all the same though...

[kano]

Just a little bit of info regarding KnC
They contact ckolivas and myself at the end of May regarding cgminer and related information.

They then stated they'd be sending (in July) mock up devices (with an internal RPi) for us to work with on cgminer, then in September the real (faster) devices to tune cgminer to.

I have, however, heard nothing since, but no doubt expect to hear something soon.

I'll keep everyone posted if anything happens

[Phoenix1969]

when will the KNC order the chips on earth?

Well, If you bothered to read the reports, the chips were ordered back on jun 12th.

[blastbob]

Just a little bit of info regarding KnC
They contact ckolivas and myself at the end of May regarding cgminer and related information.

They then stated they'd be sending (in July) mock up devices (with an internal RPi) for us to work with on cgminer, then in September the real (faster) devices to tune cgminer to.

I have, however, heard nothing since, but no doubt expect to hear something soon.

I'll keep everyone posted if anything happens

Great Keep us updated when you can. Post in this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.0 when you get more info.

Sent 1BTC for motivation

[szmarco]

when will the KNC order the chips on earth?

Well, If you bothered to read the reports, the chips were ordered back on jun 12th.

I have browsed the whole post from top to bottom and checked every sentence including the keyword "order".But I did not find the "Jun 12"
Could you plz give me the URL?

[Bagpipe]

I've only given it a quick glance to it but I'm not able to understand how Bagpipe was capable of getting both manufacturer name and exact chip model from the video... it could be me

It is called "a standard", look it up in a dictionary
Basically, if a part if to be packaged in PDIP-8 it will have roughly the same look anywhere on the planet. Look up for PDIP-8 and SOIC-16 as fine examples. (Don't pelt me with stones, I know the DIP-14 was the first and only!)

[Bagpipe]

when will the KNC order the chips on earth?

Well, If you bothered to read the reports, the chips were ordered back on jun 12th.

To clarify: the word "chip" is usually the small ractangular piece of silicon, but for some reason the swedish engineers were calling the whole packaged integrated circuit a "chip", that added to the confusion as they planned for 90x90mm modules. In the end there may be one or multi-chip modules, we'll know later.

P.S. the special BGA package they are going to use is, I believe, the same as the one they were doing in the 65nm to 40nm shrink of the 187-clock domain chip. (I believe I saw the photo of the original)

[Bagpipe]

The comments are despicable too. Glad most miners are like those idiots and won't even be able to get them working or find real companies like we did.

1) Are you responding to the comments from disappointed BFL customers?
2) which '"most miners" do you mean?
3) what "get them working" are you referring to?
4) what 'finding of real companies' are you referring to, again? I lost your train of thought here.
5) In the end of your sentence, you use plural, am I right to assume that you and your employees have found "real companies" that helped you somehow? What was it with?

[kano]

Just a little bit of info regarding KnC
They contact ckolivas and myself at the end of May regarding cgminer and related information.

They then stated they'd be sending (in July) mock up devices (with an internal RPi) for us to work with on cgminer, then in September the real (faster) devices to tune cgminer to.

I have, however, heard nothing since, but no doubt expect to hear something soon.

I'll keep everyone posted if anything happens

Great Keep us updated when you can. Post in this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.0 when you get more info.

Sent 1BTC for motivation

Thanks indeed - BTC received - much appreciated!

[Bitcoinorama]

Just a little bit of info regarding KnC
They contact ckolivas and myself at the end of May regarding cgminer and related information.

They then stated they'd be sending (in July) mock up devices (with an internal RPi) for us to work with on cgminer, then in September the real (faster) devices to tune cgminer to.

I have, however, heard nothing since, but no doubt expect to hear something soon.

I'll keep everyone posted if anything happens

Fantastic, great news, please do Kano!

[RoadStress]

Before detailing the time spent at the ORSoC offices with all those involved in KnC. I'd like to tell a little true account of my travel to and from which fittingly describes two competing companies; one that get's the product offering, and associated customer service very, very right, and another that fails miserably. If in the course of this I can at least save one person the misfortune of travelling with Ryanair, then it's worthy of my effort.

Admittedly I booked late, both flights literally a day before travel. Ryanair I will always avoid wherever possible whatever the expense; the supposedly 'budget' airline is never overt with their true cost, it literally takes three-four times as long to complete payment and turn down every up-sell imposed upon you than another competitor (kind of like buying a domain from GoDaddy). You are required to check in beforehand which means internet and a printer (or a £40 fine). Whilst checking in be prepared to be lambasted with all the previous up-sells you declined. If you manage to escape that unscathed, you then have the minefield of making sure you physically print your ticket, or your denied boarding, a bag a centimetre over their requirements, your denied boarding, buy anything in duty free? Did the shop kindly place your items in a bag? Does it not fit in your hand luggage? Denied boarding. What kind of experience entails customers shi**ing themselves as to whether they will get what they paid for from you?!

I'm sure you see the applicable relevance here and the underlying metaphor, but upon boarding the plane, Ryanair has the equivalent of a club bouncer rejecting people upon arrival...and they did. I was at the tail end of boarding, and within 20 people ahead of me they denied 5, well 4, they made one couple actually separate and the boyfriend have to purchase a second later flight. Disgusting behaviour enforced by their CEO Micael O'Leary the same ****wit that has been caught overcharging additional unannounced fees, wanting to charge for toilet usage when you are in the air, and a more recent idea to remove seating from planes and have paying customers stand the duration of the flight, cattle class.

Alas, this despicable company was my only choice left, 'budget' only truly applies to the unwillingness of the airline itself to spend, the cost to me was actually 6 times more than the return flight!!!

I paid £250 for a flight in which all reclining functionality of the seats had been purposefully removed, and not once could you close your eyes as every 10 minutes was announced a new means to remove further monies from you be it; drinks, food, products you don't want, need, or care for, requiring constant reassurance to the stewards/esses that won't take no for an answer or acknowledge you. As a final insult to injury the plane lands with a fanfare to reassure you they've raped you as much as possible on landing.

The return in contrast was with Norwegian airlines, booked the day before flight for £39! No up-sell. Check-in prior, no worries if you have no internet, you can do so at the train station whenever you like, with a text to your mobile, before even heading to the airport (not an option for the aforementioned airline), want to choose your seat? Sure go for it at point of check in (additional cost with Ryanair), bag a little over, or purchased anything extra, no problem bring it on board. Full leather reclining recaro seats, wifi on board!!?! Zero charge to you. Drinks, food available at your request, no forced selling. Very polite and extremely presentable staff (In fact they were very good looking, but that in itself is generally luck, but they made every effort to remain relaxed, polite and presentable in addition). In essence, everything one would expect, the perfect customer experience at a very fair fare.

http://vimeo.com/60938085 there

[Bitcoinorama]

Don't, I actually have a wedding to attend this weekend, and the closest airport is serviced solely from London by Ryanair.

[RoadStress]

Don't, I actually have a wedding to attend this weekend, and the closest airport is serviced solely from London by Ryanair.

All i can say is LOL and good luck

[papaminer]

Their prices is way cheap than of other manufacturers...

400GHZ for $7,000

versus

500GHZ at $22,000 (BFL) which takes 48 years to get shipped...

it seems to be too good to be true...

but hey... if they are legit... I hope they can hire more people to keep miners coming...

it is always good to have consumer attention competition....

[DPoS]

What happened to the 1500Gh for $30k??  Aren't people still waiting for them?

[canth]

What happened to the 1500Gh for $30k??  Aren't people still waiting for them?

It's still 1,500 GH/s for the $22K - it's 3x 500 GH/s units though instead of 1 so initially it seems that people are only receiving 1 unit at a time. I haven't seen anyone that's gotten their full mini-rig order.

[rustyh17]

What happened to the 1500Gh for $30k??  Aren't people still waiting for them?

It's still 1,500 GH/s for the $22K - it's 3x 500 GH/s units though instead of 1 so initially it seems that people are only receiving 1 unit at a time. I haven't seen anyone that's gotten their full mini-rig order.

Actually, it is now 500 GH/s for $22K. The original 1500GH/s for $30K buyers are getting
3 x 500's at the original price because BFL is honoring their hash rate commitment. There
are people who have received more than one 500GH/s rig already. It is based on their
order payment date position.

[KS]

To the people flaming KS and Bitcoinorama:

Cool off, guys. Both are doing their job. It's way better for the community to have them both, than having just one of them or none.

Bitcoinorama is very thorough and did a huge work, but it's true that he might be a little "over-enthusiastic" at times. Well, the truth is that he even would like to work for KnC, he admitted that. But this does not mean that he's dishonest, just that he is a little bit biased.

From the other side KS is playing devil's advocates, raising clever and adequate concerns, cooling off people's hope that turns in "wishful thinking" some times.

TL-DR -> we need them both. Keep up the good job, guys

No-  KS is playing the troll at this point...  Many times he has posted misinformation instead of honest concern to try to stay relevant

Bit late at this point but... quote me posting misinformation please. I don't pretend not to make mistakes, but I've been rather thorough on KNC/KNCMINER/ORSOC (not every bit of info is on this forum). I see bashing and no quoting. I'm busy with more important things ATM, but I'll devote my full attention to these discussions in August.

[DPoS]

To the people flaming KS and Bitcoinorama:

Cool off, guys. Both are doing their job. It's way better for the community to have them both, than having just one of them or none.

Bitcoinorama is very thorough and did a huge work, but it's true that he might be a little "over-enthusiastic" at times. Well, the truth is that he even would like to work for KnC, he admitted that. But this does not mean that he's dishonest, just that he is a little bit biased.

From the other side KS is playing devil's advocates, raising clever and adequate concerns, cooling off people's hope that turns in "wishful thinking" some times.

TL-DR -> we need them both. Keep up the good job, guys

No-  KS is playing the troll at this point...  Many times he has posted misinformation instead of honest concern to try to stay relevant

Bit late at this point but... quote me posting misinformation please. I don't pretend not to make mistakes, but I've been rather thorough on KNC/KNCMINER/ORSOC (not every bit of info is on this forum). I see bashing and no quoting. I'm busy with more important things ATM, but I'll devote my full attention to these discussions in August.

pull someone else into your web of FUD

[KS]

pull someone else into your web of FUD

No-  KS is playing the troll at this point...  Many times he has posted misinformation instead of honest concern to try to stay relevant

I bow to your eloquence. 

[johny08]

my first thread i remember reading @ bitcointalk