BitcoinOrama Report on the KnCminer/OrSoC Open-day Mon 10/06/13 (Stockholm)

[szmarco]

Bitcoinorama,KNC should release some new information like this below.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=242411.0

Perhaps, but you overlook one tiny, but definitive requirement. They would need to be in possession of their chips already, unless you want a picture of a finger...?

there are more pics.
http://zeptobars.ru/en/read/bitfury-bitcoin-mining-chip

[Bitcoinorama]

Bitcoinorama,KNC should release some new information like this below.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=242411.0

Perhaps, but you overlook one tiny, but definitive requirement. They would need to be in possession of their chips already, unless you want a picture of a finger...?

there are more pics.
http://zeptobars.ru/en/read/bitfury-bitcoin-mining-chip

I've seen them already today in a Russian forum with google translator. They look good, flower image is a touch.

[webjoe]

Huh? Aren't these are the Bitfury chips - not the KNC's?

there are more pics.
http://zeptobars.ru/en/read/bitfury-bitcoin-mining-chip

[Bitcoinorama]

Huh? Aren't these are the Bitfury chips - not the KNC's?

there are more pics.
http://zeptobars.ru/en/read/bitfury-bitcoin-mining-chip

Obviously...

[Bitcoinorama]

we got news

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-22

News update
Main PageNewsCommon

It’s time again for another newsletter from us. Today’s newsletter will have the following sections
Performance improvements to Jupiter and Saturn
Power usage
Unpaid orders
Lottery results
Queue position update
 

Performance improvements to Jupiter and Saturn

 
Here at KnCMiner we have always stated that the final performance of our machines has not been set in stone. We simply do not want to overpromise and then have to correct ourselves later.
The performance increase that we can announce today is based on direct feedback from the chip manufacturer who have been working with us for some time now. They have come back to us confirming the performance improvements in our RTL code.
So it is with great pleasure that we can finally announce our Jupiter is now a 400 GH/s device and therefore Saturn is a 200 GH/s device.
We are now so far down the chip development path that we can safely reveal these figures. There will be further announcements from us about the chip manufacture soon, and we will keep you all informed of all progress
 
Power usage details

 
We have previously specified the power consumption of the Jupiter device at a 1000 watts. We have now received indication from our chip manufacturer that this may be lower.
This is where we need to refer you to our statement of under promise and over deliver.
So until you hear from us again on this, we would like to reaffirm that Jupiter will be less than 1000 watts and Saturn less than 500 watts.
 
Unpaid orders

 
There has been some confusion about our ordering process. While we may admit that the pre-order registration, 7 day payment window, and even the wording on our site have added to the confusion.
 
We would like to make it clear that orders which are not paid will not be given a place in the shipping queue until they are successfully paid for.
All orders are kept in your account history and we have not removed any active (New) orders. We will shortly begin removing any unpaid orders from our system if they remain unpaid for more than 7 days.
 
So for those of you that have been confused by the order/queue/payment process. You will have a few more days to pay for your orders before they are removed. If you have any concerns on this please email us at info@kncminer.com
 
Lottery results

 
The lottery has now been drawn. The winners have been announced, with their permission on our webpage www.kncminer.com.
 
Queue position update

 
We know you have all been waiting for the shipping queue position update and over the next few days we will be adding a comment to your orders which will give you the day that your boxes will be made, tested and shipped.
For example Day 1/Day 2/Day 3. This will indicate how far from the start of shipping your order will dispatched. This update will not apply to new orders and will only apply to the orders which were based on pre-order registration. All other orders will be dispatched in the order of payment.
 
Chip Progress report

 
The more technical audience amongst our customers have been asking for a lot details on the chips we will use. The information we have available to you today is that Jupiter will be a 4 chip design and Saturn a 2 chip design.
This means that we can achieve a minimum of 100GH/s per chip. Which we think most people will agree, puts us far ahead of our current competitors.
Our ASIC package selection has been optimized, allowing the use of a smaller package. The selected package is a 55mm x 55mm HFCBGA package (2046 ball count), optimized for maximum thermal characteristics.
 
Further news

 
We are still on track to meet our deadlines of shipping the first boxes in September. We will be providing regular updates in newsletters here and on our site. www.kncminer.com so keep checking regularly so you don’t miss out on any updates.
Thanks
KnCMiner team

[Bagpipe]

This is the chip they are going to use.

http://www.asetwn.com.tw/content/2-5-3.html

And one with pictures (the one in the metal can) HFC-BGA 52.5x52.5mm
http://www.asetwn.com.tw/content/12.html

"Heat spreaders made of Cu with Ni plating or Aluminum, Ceramic, AlSiC..."

Yay, we're gonna have a CPU! much like the intel LGA package CPU, with huuuge number of pads
We're gonna love it!

Finally some company which understands things, not like the cretins at BFL who first chose all plastic packaging, which then smoked due to the heat and then chose bare die on 0.5mm BGA, and they plan to "neatly" arrange them in a grid, OLOLOL... (they imagine the chip surfaces will be in the same orientation and nothing bad will happen.... just try it...)

EDIT: yes, I believe they had already done a chip in that package, the one they were talking about, which I won't get into talking about.

[J35st3r]

WOW! 1000 Watts over 4 chips is 250Watt per chip (less a bit for power conversion etc), say 150W TDP? This is definitely in the ballpark of high-end graphics/cpu thermal design. Mucho kudos if they get it right. 

[titomane]

we got news

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-22

News update

 
Unpaid orders

 
There has been some confusion about our ordering process. While we may admit that the pre-order registration, 7 day payment window, and even the wording on our site have added to the confusion.
 
We would like to make it clear that orders which are not paid will not be given a place in the shipping queue until they are successfully paid for.
All orders are kept in your account history and we have not removed any active (New) orders. We will shortly begin removing any unpaid orders from our system if they remain unpaid for more than 7 days.
 
So for those of you that have been confused by the order/queue/payment process. You will have a few more days to pay for your orders before they are removed. If you have any concerns on this please email us at info@kncminer.com
 
KnCMiner team

If buyers do not get paid in time. They want to get on the boat now. It is very unfair. They can not keep the queue. What are the advantages of first-time buyers who have helped the project?
Fair is their order is from 87 * lowest never.
Who wanted the device moved heaven and earth to pay. The did not wait now.

Thanks

[idee2013]

This is the chip they are going to use.

http://www.asetwn.com.tw/content/2-5-3.html

And one with pictures (the one in the metal can) HFC-BGA 52.5x52.5mm
http://www.asetwn.com.tw/content/12.html

"Heat spreaders made of Cu with Ni plating or Aluminum, Ceramic, AlSiC..."

Yay, we're gonna have a CPU! much like the intel LGA package CPU, with huuuge number of pads
We're gonna love it!

Finally some company which understands things, not like the cretins at BFL who first chose all plastic packaging, which then smoked due to the heat and then chose bare die on 0.5mm BGA, and they plan to "neatly" arrange them in a grid, OLOLOL... (they imagine the chip surfaces will be in the same orientation and nothing bad will happen.... just try it...)

EDIT: yes, I believe they had already done a chip in that package, the one they were talking about, which I won't get into talking about.

from where do you know that? have you googled for chip size and the HFC-BGA name?

[dacman61]

This is the chip they are going to use.

http://www.asetwn.com.tw/content/2-5-3.html

And one with pictures (the one in the metal can) HFC-BGA 52.5x52.5mm
http://www.asetwn.com.tw/content/12.html

"Heat spreaders made of Cu with Ni plating or Aluminum, Ceramic, AlSiC..."

Yay, we're gonna have a CPU! much like the intel LGA package CPU, with huuuge number of pads
We're gonna love it!

Finally some company which understands things, not like the cretins at BFL who first chose all plastic packaging, which then smoked due to the heat and then chose bare die on 0.5mm BGA, and they plan to "neatly" arrange them in a grid, OLOLOL... (they imagine the chip surfaces will be in the same orientation and nothing bad will happen.... just try it...)

EDIT: yes, I believe they had already done a chip in that package, the one they were talking about, which I won't get into talking about.

from where do you know that? have you googled for chip size and the HFC-BGA name?

idee2013,

Check out this link... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by-je8XRCdY

[sickpig]

This is the chip they are going to use.

http://www.asetwn.com.tw/content/2-5-3.html

And one with pictures (the one in the metal can) HFC-BGA 52.5x52.5mm
http://www.asetwn.com.tw/content/12.html

"Heat spreaders made of Cu with Ni plating or Aluminum, Ceramic, AlSiC..."

Yay, we're gonna have a CPU! much like the intel LGA package CPU, with huuuge number of pads
We're gonna love it!

Finally some company which understands things, not like the cretins at BFL who first chose all plastic packaging, which then smoked due to the heat and then chose bare die on 0.5mm BGA, and they plan to "neatly" arrange them in a grid, OLOLOL... (they imagine the chip surfaces will be in the same orientation and nothing bad will happen.... just try it...)

EDIT: yes, I believe they had already done a chip in that package, the one they were talking about, which I won't get into talking about.

from where do you know that? have you googled for chip size and the HFC-BGA name?

idee2013,

Check out this link... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by-je8XRCdY

I've only given it a quick glance to it but I'm not able to understand how Bagpipe was capable of getting both manufacturer name and exact chip model from the video... it could be me

[suryc]

Did anyone get their order updated with a queue position yet or is it too soon to expect that?

Queue position update

We know you have all been waiting for the shipping queue position update and over the next few days we will be adding a comment to your orders which will give you the day that your boxes will be made, tested and shipped.

For example Day 1/Day 2/Day 3. This will indicate how far from the start of shipping your order will dispatched. This update will not apply to new orders and will only apply to the orders which were based on pre-order registration. All other orders will be dispatched in the order of payment.

[dwdoc]

Not yet, but they just announced the lottery winners and said queue update would follow so hopefully this week...

[dhenson]

Did anyone get their order updated with a queue position yet or is it too soon to expect that?

This seems like a small issue, but you have to remember that the folks at KnC are ultra careful to not do anything that could be conceived as underhanded.  They won't post the queue positions until they are absolutely positive they are correct.

Kind of endearing really.

[mp3wizard]

guys, Have been thinking about ordering a Jupiter unit for the last week, if i'm positive i think there's still some room for me to jump on the bandwagon, if i'm pessimistic i think i might of missed the boat, considering i'd be one of the last to receive the unit and the difficulty rating.

What do you think? Am I too late??

[Bitcoinorama]

Honestly don't know, with respect to this price point. Prices will become more competitively priced from all manufacturers, they have to, the beauty of increased competition. It depends whether you want to wait for that to happen. Certainly by Christmas it shall have, so can you wait a month or two more for delivery?

For sure, Avalon and ASiCminers offerings are wayy overpriced and have room to manoeuvre. Fried cat is driven by greed and not by giving a mutually reciprocal deal to purchases of ASICminer products. BitSyncom are beginning to show elements of greed, this is yet to be proven undeniably, although the current evidence is concerning. KnC have had to cover NRE which they now have done, they can't drop prices yet though as they have paying customers that need to ROI. My advice is if you are getting into this to hedge and increased future Bitcoin price then that's understandable, though I reckon it will go down before up from ASIC buyers selling to recover ROI. The current price drop is believed to be ASICminer flooding the market with Bitcoins, so you have an idea there. In the very short term there is some benefit to being an early adopter of this tech. Over the medium to long term it will be as profitable as GPU mining is today. Whether the short term lasts beyond September, who knows, but neither you, or I are lucky enough to have backed a current player with ASiCs in hand right now for a reasonable price. (Basically the few BFL and Avalon units currently in the wild that weren't given away to buy journalistic favour. Owning an ASICminer product means you're already out of pocket).

[DPoS]

The power costs of a jupiter or 2 saturns is $3.60 a day. ($.15/kWh)  It will take 5 billion difficulty at today's btc price to make these produce less $$ than what they cost to run.  That's a long time for ROI

I would be happy if I just made $20k profit before next summer and use that to install solar shingles/panels for my home.  Then I can look to buy up cheap ASICs from people who still pay for most of their electric

Think of all the free heat I will have too!!

[mp3wizard]

ok assuming i order today, get my miner in late october, i should be able to make my ROI in under a year shouldn't I?

[canth]

...

For sure, Avalon and ASiCminers offerings are wayy overpriced and have room to manoeuvre. Fried cat is driven by greed and not by giving a mutually reciprocal deal to purchases of ASICminer products. BitSyncom are beginning to show elements of greed, this is yet to be proven undeniably, although the current evidence is concerning. KnC have had to cover NRE which they now have done, they can't drop prices yet though as they have paying customers that need to ROI. ...

For what it's worth, I take issue with the suggestion that AM is somehow motivated by greed more so than any other mining hardware company. AM is one of the few companies with hardware on the shelf that can be purchased, right now. If you compare that to all of the other vendors, do you imagine that the prices for AM hardware should be similar to other vendors? I think not, since mining hardware ROI is nearly entirely reliant on time of delivery.

Prices are dictated by what the market will bear and given the amount of reselling that I see on eBay, ASICMiner could charge even more for their products. I'd suggest we keep the subjective assumptions about greed to ourselves and just discuss whether or not we feel a particular product is worth the price people are willing to pay.

I don't think that KnC is doing business for the betterment of mankind - I presume it's to turn a healthy profit and why not? I'm more interested in honesty and execution than motivation, for any company that's looking for my investment. So far, AM and KnC seem to be fairly similar in that regard.

[rizzman]

...

For sure, Avalon and ASiCminers offerings are wayy overpriced and have room to manoeuvre. Fried cat is driven by greed and not by giving a mutually reciprocal deal to purchases of ASICminer products. BitSyncom are beginning to show elements of greed, this is yet to be proven undeniably, although the current evidence is concerning. KnC have had to cover NRE which they now have done, they can't drop prices yet though as they have paying customers that need to ROI. ...

For what it's worth, I take issue with the suggestion that AM is somehow motivated by greed more so than any other mining hardware company. AM is one of the few companies with hardware on the shelf that can be purchased, right now. If you compare that to all of the other vendors, do you imagine that the prices for AM hardware should be similar to other vendors? I think not, since mining hardware ROI is nearly entirely reliant on time of delivery.

Prices are dictated by what the market will bear and given the amount of reselling that I see on eBay, ASICMiner could charge even more for their products. I'd suggest we keep the subjective assumptions about greed to ourselves and just discuss whether or not we feel a particular product is worth the price people are willing to pay.

I don't think that KnC is doing business for the betterment of mankind - I presume it's to turn a healthy profit and why not? I'm more interested in honesty and execution than motivation, for any company that's looking for my investment. So far, AM and KnC seem to be fairly similar in that regard.

Yes, I agree their motivation does not matter, the execution and how they go about it is more important however Bitcoinorama does have a point. These companies essentially have us by the balls when it comes to the tech that driving Bitcoin right now, and it shows that they know this in the pricing and customer service... as far as all the Ebay reselling, you have people buying 300Mh usb sticks for $200-$350 a pop, that will never see that profit return before the big guns come out, you can't possibly write this off as "Just what the market is willing to bare", there is clear abuse by the manufacturers and resellers going on.

The "Established" companies no longer look at us as the people supporting their livelihood. In most cases, they look at the subject as if they are doing "us" a favor by letting us by their equipment, and that we should just shutup and be greatful they are giving it to us at all... Just look at the BFL_Jody blogs below, read this thread forward... Your mind is about to be Blow'n...

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/183-thursday-6-6-2012.html

There are clear abuses by those who hold position in the market and it is a welcome site to see the new kid on the block challenging this. I can't wait to see how attitudes / pricing changes when KnC starts pumping their rigs... I suspect they're will be a lot of customer relations training classes in BFL Jody's future, as well as an emphasis on customer service in the future which is much needed. Until then, we wait.