The truth about the BFL 1000 BTC fund?

[Matthew N. Wright]

Wait, what? I'm doing accounting for The Conference? I guess I'll have to get off my butt and actually, uh, do... something?

For what it's worth, the money is still BFL's, regardless of what they said about giving it to charities, so I don't fault them for being picky about who gets it and not giving it to those they dislike. As long as it's not going back to them, I don't think it matters if they deny it to someone for personal reasons. The whole point of creating this fund was to help them improve their company image, so it's really up to them to pick which donations would improve it and which won't have any effect. I'm also not sure that The Conference really qualities as a needy cause. Or a charity.

Also, despite horrible business mistakes and fuckups, I don't consider BFL a scam at all. If only because they were always willing to give refunds, and I believe all their reasons for delays, especially since they were honest about making stupid mistakes to cause those delays. Badly run business? Yes. Scam? No. Maybe I'm just gullible. I'll also probably be buying from them once they catch up on backorders and start regular shipments.

No, they will not be giving away $200,000 because someone on the interwebz gets pissy or calls them names. They are not scammers. That name conjures up images of some snot nosed kid behind a keyboard playing video games and laughing about the couple of guys they suckered on a stupid forum. These guys are professional grifters that set out on a mission to swindle as many people as they can for as long as they can. If I were going to do a long con I would also refund a few people to keep up appearances and make up the lost funds by charging the remaining marks $300-$500 shipping (which is what they have done).

I have to agree with Matthew on this one. It's very concerning that the supposedly "main forum" for Bitcoin continues to take advertising dollars from a manufacturer that sells a product and doesn't deliver for a year. That makes it seem as if the forum is in on the scam. So is Bitcoin just a scam? It's enough to make new visitors to this site wonder.

My question is still unanswered so I will rephrase. Why would any of you believe that BFL would give $200,000 dollars of conned money away because someone on a chat forum is bitchy or complains? No one is that stupid.

Well, I'm giving about that much away on a forum for making a prank bet and trying to make up for it. There are apparently stupid people everywhere. 

You are not giving away $200k for that stupid bet and if you are you're nuts. You know why I didn't bet against you back then? Because if you lost I knew you could never cover the bet and it be pointless to bet. You don't really believe I'm some sort of genius and I'm the only one that understood that do you? Everyone betting had to know you could never cover the bet and if they did lose 90% of them would have stiffed you anyway. You are a major fuck-up for pulling that shit but I don't just blame you. I blame the other parties too. You screwed your rep with all bitcoiners by doing that stupid stunt and made all the businesses that were working with you distance themselves. It really is a shame.

A shame I'm paying for. That's the different between me and a scammer though, I make up for things when I make a mistake and I always make sure to pay back more than was borrowed. Money never interested me (imagine that, bitcoiners!) which is why I do not think of bitcoin like others here. I only care about building and being useful, and to me, making a bet and not paying for it removes my usefulness. It isn't even about money. BFL have removed their usefulness as well, but instead of paying to undo a mistake, they apparently decided to make more.

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[MPOE-PR]

As a consultant for the Bitcoin Conference in Amsterdam, Netherlands this September 27-29,  against my better judgement I figured it couldn't hurt to query BFL in regards to their 1000 bitcoins already pledged and earmarked for charities, non-profits, projects, etc. as penance for over-promising and under-delivering. My courteous request for information turned into an eye opening revolution about paranoia and ego.

Warning: Below are the raw, uncut messages between us. Those who get offended easily on the internet may want to avert their eyes

...

Still waiting on a response, but it's starting to look like the fund is not a real fund, but just further investments and 'gifts' to fans of BFL. That doesn't seem to meet the sane requirements for a charity, and I think they should be called out on this. Since Theymos seems to be lacking in the integrity department by letting them continue to advertise here, not delivering a scammer tag, etc, I am beginning to think the only clear solution is to boycott the forums.

Looking forward to constructive, non-trolling comments.

(edit: I've deleted 2 anti-BFL troll comments so far and one BFL-fanboy comment. I would like to reiterate that the topic here is the fund, not the business or Inaba's personality).

We know they're scammers. Arguing with scammers can be an exercise in comedy, but really, what are you proving? Sonny's daddy was a scammer. Sonny himself is a convicted felon. BFL was made by a convicted felon in breach of his terms of release. Josh Zerlan is just some random whore in the background, like Luke, coinjedi & co. Nobody cares.

Anyone who is smart enough to have run a charity would reconsider asking BFL for funds as I believe they would have done their own research in to BFL and see that the money would only tarnish the validity of their ethics.

A funny sort of problem, having nobody willing to take the 1000 Bitcoins you don't have but promised to give. I'm sure in the end they'll find something working on the betsofbitco.in scammodel.

[bitlover]

A shame I'm paying for. That's the different between me and a scammer though, I make up for things when I make a mistake and I always make sure to pay back more than was borrowed.

And how much exactly have you payed back? I don't visit this forum that often and I am genuinely curious about that.

[Matthew N. Wright]

A shame I'm paying for. That's the different between me and a scammer though, I make up for things when I make a mistake and I always make sure to pay back more than was borrowed.

And how much exactly have you payed back? I don't visit this forum that often and I am genuinely curious about that.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140654

More than half. It will take years potentially if bitcoin's price continues to raise regularly, but I will keep my word because despite the misconception by those who think a manic episode equates to being a scammer, I am probably one of the most honest people on these forums (key point: I correct myself when wrong, apologize when wrong, and make up for my mistakes. I do not start fraudulent funds and pass them off as charities to avoid paying what I owe).

[charleshoskinson]

To avoid this thread becoming yet another BFL is evil, let's just focus upon the matter at hand. How does Bitcoin DF decide to allocate funds, who is involved in that decision and why are applications based upon one's statements regarding BFL?

I really do applaud BFL for donating money to organizations such as FSF; however, it still is fundamentally dishonest to represent these donations on behalf of a neutral entity when they are simply a brand proxy of BFL.

[mmeijeri]

More than half. It will take years potentially if bitcoin's price continues to raise regularly, but I will keep my word because despite the misconception by those who think a manic episode equates to being a scammer, I am probably one of the most honest people on these forums (key point: I correct myself when wrong, apologize when wrong, and make up for my mistakes. I do not start fraudulent funds and pass them off as charities to avoid paying what I owe).

Commendable. Under Dutch law (and maybe in all civil law jurisdictions) debts arising from bets are not enforceable, they constitute what are called "natural obligations". While if someone does pay, he cannot later ask for his money back, he cannot be forced to pay. Disclaimer: IANAL, TINLA.

[Matthew N. Wright]

debts arising from bets are not enforceable

Despite what natural enemies of mine tried to portray otherwise, I knew this already and it is true for my current situation (there is no way to sue me successfully, take from me what I don't have, etc etc). The problem is, I didn't know the scope of my trolling and what it would do to even a handful of honest people. I'm positive many of the betters were scammers (many have admitted it), but I don't think it matters. What matters is that I threw a ball in a house, the house caught on fire, and now I realize I may have knocked over a candle, and even if I can't prove it, it doesn't matter, I take responsibility for the fire.

We now await Josh/Inaba to take responsibility for his fire, instead of trying to bribe with the insurance claims inspectors or painting over the fire damage.

[mindtomatter]

I don't have a dog in this fight, so I've applied to be on the charity selection board.

Hi there,
Kudos on the fund - This is a great idea and probably the best way BFL could have fulfilled their promise given the values at stake.   I think I would be a good addition to your selection board as I have visibility within the community, a reputation for being fair, reality based, and comprehensive, and I sequester my personal ideology from merit based decision-making. 

 Let me know if you'd like to set up a time to talk about this, I look forward to your response.

I sincerely hope the guy you quoted in the original post isn't the one picking charities, if this is governed by a real board it could be very helpful.

[Matthew N. Wright]

I don't have a dog in this fight, so I've applied to be on the charity selection board.

Hi there,
Kudos on the fund - This is a great idea and probably the best way BFL could have fulfilled their promise given the values at stake.   I think I would be a good addition to your selection board as I have visibility within the community, a reputation for being fair, reality based, and comprehensive, and I sequester my personal ideology from merit based decision-making.  

 Let me know if you'd like to set up a time to talk about this, I look forward to your response.

I sincerely hope the guy you quoted in the original post isn't the one picking charities, if this is governed by a real board it could be very helpful.

Using Inaba's logic, now that you've posted in this thread you're associated with me and thus cannot be associated with him. I suppose me being associated with everyone should starve him.

[charleshoskinson]

I sincerely hope the guy you quoted in the original post isn't the one picking charities, if this is governed by a real board it could be very helpful.

The guy is Josh, an executive for BFL, and yes he does seem to have influence over the charities being selected.

[Rassah]

*cough* 1,000 BTC at $100 price is $100,000

[QuestionAuthority]

*cough* but they owe 2000 *cough*

[Phinnaeus Gage]

*cough* but they owe 2000 *cough*

True!

@MNW

Are you aware that Sonny K is no longer with the company? He disappeared when a Sonny Vleisides entered onto the scene.

Ask for links if you need them.

BTW, nice thread.

[Rassah]

*cough* but they owe 2000 *cough*

They "owe?" They, as the company BFL, volunteered 1000 for this charity/PR thing. Josh/Inaba may owe a separate 1000 himself for whatever bet, but I don't know the details of that. Don't conflate who is supposed to give to whom, and don't conflate a voluntary act of kindness for "owing" anything to the needy. All they really owe is the damn ASICs to their customers, and a ton of apologies and compensations for making them wait so long.

[QuestionAuthority]

*cough* but they owe 2000 *cough*

They "owe?" They, as the company BFL, volunteered 1000 for this charity/PR thing. Josh/Inaba may owe a separate 1000 himself for whatever bet, but I don't know the details of that. Don't conflate who is supposed to give to whom, and don't conflate a voluntary act of kindness for "owing" anything to the needy. All they really owe is the damn ASICs to their customers, and a ton of apologies and compensations for making them wait so long.

Calm yourself fanboy! A "voluntary act of kindness!" LOL Are we talking about the same people?

If you make a promise that promise becomes a debt that you owe against your honor. Oh, you're right, they have no honor so obviously they have no debt. Never mind.

[Rassah]

*cough* but they owe 2000 *cough*

They "owe?" They, as the company BFL, volunteered 1000 for this charity/PR thing. Josh/Inaba may owe a separate 1000 himself for whatever bet, but I don't know the details of that. Don't conflate who is supposed to give to whom, and don't conflate a voluntary act of kindness for "owing" anything to the needy. All they really owe is the damn ASICs to their customers, and a ton of apologies and compensations for making them wait so long.

Calm yourself fanboy! A "voluntary act of kindness!" LOL Are we talking about the same people?

If you make a promise that promise becomes a debt that you owe against your honor. Oh, you're right, they have no honor so obviously they have no debt. Never mind.

I'm just saying that when to comes to charity, they don't owe anyone a thing. They made a promise to the community. They owe a debt to the community. Anyone else see a problem with that last sentence?

[MooC Tals]

*cough* but they owe 2000 *cough*

They "owe?" They, as the company BFL, volunteered 1000 for this charity/PR thing. Josh/Inaba may owe a separate 1000 himself for whatever bet, but I don't know the details of that. Don't conflate who is supposed to give to whom, and don't conflate a voluntary act of kindness for "owing" anything to the needy. All they really owe is the damn ASICs to their customers, and a ton of apologies and compensations for making them wait so long.

Calm yourself fanboy! A "voluntary act of kindness!" LOL Are we talking about the same people?

If you make a promise that promise becomes a debt that you owe against your honor. Oh, you're right, they have no honor so obviously they have no debt. Never mind.

I'm just saying that when to comes to charity, they don't owe anyone a thing. They made a promise to the community. They owe a debt to the community. Anyone else see a problem with that last sentence?

If I used that bet to show that I was making good on a promise in the future and was unable to deliver on that promise that I would donate a sum to charity and then did not.

Do you see a problem with that statement? As for honor BFL lacks in that due to Mistake(™)

[Matthew N. Wright]

No e-begging! If you need money, work for it!

Is this what you did? And they said no. so you then bitched about them and called them names while posting PMs?

Lulz

Sincere questions receive sincere responses. Your question is a troll. Soliciting donation funds for acceptance is not begging, it also has nothing to do with me. I inquired on behalf of the conference, which is a non-profit.

Post sincere questions and they will be answered. Try to stay on topic though, as you keep forgetting Charles received the same treatment and Inaba has yet to clarify any points of transparency. Do you think the fund is legitimate or just an attempt to save face publicly?

(Edit: You seem to insist on attacking me personally instead of discussing the topic, which is BFL's transparency or lack thereof, and the now questionability of their legitimacy. If you can agree that their legitimacy with the fund is questionable, then your negative opinion of me is irrelevant and does not need to be repeated on every thread I am active in. Stay on topic.)

[Rassah]

Out of curiosity, did anyone here actually believe that this BFL 1000 BTC thing was anything other than a PR stunt to be doled out at their own discretion, only in ways that helps improve their own image? It sounds like some people may have been fooled into thinking that this was BFL being genuinely charitable for no reason other than being nice.

And i guess follow-up question, is anyone actually surprised, shocked, or offended at them doing this, instead of thinking that's to be expected from most any business, and especially from one of BFL's caliber?

[Maged]

I just did some spot-checking, and it appears that funds are being donated. For example, this donation to CGminer:
https://blockchain.info/tx/73de8b19a222450f3c5a69c7eb5804cdd3e24a1081c88f7870dff30d06ceac84

Is there any dispute that these donations are being made? Is there any dispute that the recipients of these donations are entities independent of BFL?

My reference: http://www.bitcoindf.org/