Bitcoin Testnet Discussion - Why a testnet economy is a good thing.

[crazy_rabbit]

I'm giving away free Testnet Bitcoins in an effort to raise awareness about the Bitcoin Testnet. Just post your address and I'll send you a couple free coins!

NOTE: Testnet Bitcoin addresses start with a "m" or "n". To get your Bitcoin client running in testnet mode, just put "testnet=1" in your bitcoin.conf file. When you want to go back to your regular bitcoin, just change this back to "testnet=0" and you will be back in normal bitcoin. No security issues, no risks. Try out the Testnet! You can even solo mine if you please.

:-)

EDIT: As the discussion has taken a more philosophical turn, I've changed the title to reflect the discussion and to bring the conversation more in line with Bitcoin Discussion.

[playtin]

I'm giving away free Testnet Bitcoins in an effort to raise awareness about the Bitcoin Testnet.

What is your reason for doing this?

[crazy_rabbit]

I'm giving away free Testnet Bitcoins in an effort to raise awareness about the Bitcoin Testnet.

What is your reason for doing this?

Wow, people don't even read entire sentences anymore! Repeating myself- (and the quote you made) - to raise awareness about the Bitcoin Testnet. Most people using bitcoin don't even know it exists, let alone that it's built right into your client.

[jackjack]

I'm giving away free Testnet Bitcoins in an effort to raise awareness about the Bitcoin Testnet.

What is your reason for doing this?

crazy_rabbit wants to monetize testnet for a really long time.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213119.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210927.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=196000.msg2040034#msg2040034
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=190696.0
Surely he has a shitload of them.


By the way, can a mod move that to Alternative cryptocurrency as Testnet is here discussed as such?

[crazy_rabbit]

I'm giving away free Testnet Bitcoins in an effort to raise awareness about the Bitcoin Testnet.

What is your reason for doing this?

crazy_rabbit wants to monetize testnet for a really long time.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213119.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210927.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=196000.msg2040034#msg2040034
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=190696.0
Surely he has a shitload of them.


By the way, can a mod move that to Alternative cryptocurrency as Testnet is here discussed as such?

Fair enough- indeed I do have a lot of them as I've been mining on the chain for some time, not with any significant hash power mind you, but the difficulty is low. My interests in monetizing them however is based on what I believe to be the solid premise that in order for testnet to serve as truly useful staging ground for greater experimentation in bitcoin it has to have some sort of value. The nonstandard transactions and bitcoin scripting that is enabled on testnet I would like to see added to main-net at some point in the future as I believe it will make Bitcoin and even more fantastic tool, opening all sorts of incredible ideas like smart-property.

At the London Conference last year I was incredibly influenced by this talk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4L7xDNCmA

Where Mike Hearn talks about some of the incredible things that can be done using scripting in Bitcoin. However while these things are *in* bitcoin already, they are not enabled because they are deemed too risky to experiment with- even more so now that Bitcoin is worth over a Billion Dollars.

I firmly believe that without effort to experiment with these sorts of non-standard transactions in advance, we are likely to never adopt them into main net bitcoin. As testnet bitcoins have no value, no one will bother trying to build anything cutting edge with them as there is no profit incentive to motive them. Like wise, the security vulnerabilities that likely exist in these non-standard transactions will also never be exploited as there is similarly no profit incentive. Without the chance to model a real economic environment with non-standard transactions enabled, we are likely never to really test non-standard transactions sufficiently enough to make a case for enabling them on main-net. At the value of bitcoin grows, people will become even more conservative about making changes to the code and it's likely many of Satoshi's idea will simply never be implemented- which I believe would be a true loss.

Bitcoin as 'digital gold' is only the start of the revolution that this technology offers. Testnet should be the staging ground where people can experiment with the more futuristic ideas that Satoshi envisioned. By declaring testnet off-limits for testing is counter productive and holds the evolution of Bitcoin back. By allowing individuals to monetize testnet-bitcoins we can jumpstart a competitive economy where the bleeding edge of bitcoin technology can be tested- trial by fire, without risking Bitcoin main-net. Then, the lessons learned can be applied to bitcoin itself.

I hope I'm making my case clearly, please let me know if I'm contradicting myself or if I am vague on any points.

EDIT: I'm not sure this belongs entirely in Alt-Coin section, although I do most of my discussion about it there. This IS bitcoin. It's the same client that everyone uses and it's Bitcoin through and through. I would argue that discussion about the benefits of Testnet-Bitcoin do belong here, some elements might be better served in the technical discussion area. Although I think testnet talk does indeed belong up here.

EDIT: Updated OP title.

[crazy_rabbit]

Just was taking a look at BitcoinX, which is another extremely cool implementation of Bitcoin technology that currently runs on their website in Testnet mode, have a look: http://www.bitcoinx.org/.

Their technology is exciting, but it would be a bit nerve wracking to test with with $100 Bitcoin so of course now it's running on Testnet, while at the same time- it's not going to get stress tested like this as most people won't have so much interest in playing with worthless coins.

[jackjack]

I'm giving away free Testnet Bitcoins in an effort to raise awareness about the Bitcoin Testnet.

What is your reason for doing this?

crazy_rabbit wants to monetize testnet for a really long time.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213119.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210927.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=196000.msg2040034#msg2040034
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=190696.0
Surely he has a shitload of them.


By the way, can a mod move that to Alternative cryptocurrency as Testnet is here discussed as such?

Fair enough- indeed I do have a lot of them as I've been mining on the chain for some time, not with any significant hash power mind you, but the difficulty is low. My interests in monetizing them however is based on what I believe to be the solid premise that in order for testnet to serve as truly useful staging ground for greater experimentation in bitcoin it has to have some sort of value. The nonstandard transactions and bitcoin scripting that is enabled on testnet I would like to see added to main-net at some point in the future as I believe it will make Bitcoin and even more fantastic tool, opening all sorts of incredible ideas like smart-property.

At the London Conference last year I was incredibly influenced by this talk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4L7xDNCmA

Where Mike Hearn talks about some of the incredible things that can be done using scripting in Bitcoin. However while these things are *in* bitcoin already, they are not enabled because they are deemed too risky to experiment with- even more so now that Bitcoin is worth over a Billion Dollars.

I firmly believe that without effort to experiment with these sorts of non-standard transactions in advance, we are likely to never adopt them into main net bitcoin. As testnet bitcoins have no value, no one will bother trying to build anything cutting edge with them as there is no profit incentive to motive them. Like wise, the security vulnerabilities that likely exist in these non-standard transactions will also never be exploited as there is similarly no profit incentive. Without the chance to model a real economic environment with non-standard transactions enabled, we are likely never to really test non-standard transactions sufficiently enough to make a case for enabling them on main-net. At the value of bitcoin grows, people will become even more conservative about making changes to the code and it's likely many of Satoshi's idea will simply never be implemented- which I believe would be a true loss.

Bitcoin as 'digital gold' is only the start of the revolution that this technology offers. Testnet should be the staging ground where people can experiment with the more futuristic ideas that Satoshi envisioned. By declaring testnet off-limits for testing is counter productive and holds the evolution of Bitcoin back. By allowing individuals to monetize testnet-bitcoins we can jumpstart a competitive economy where the bleeding edge of bitcoin technology can be tested- trial by fire, without risking Bitcoin main-net. Then, the lessons learned can be applied to bitcoin itself.

I hope I'm making my case clearly, please let me know if I'm contradicting myself or if I am vague on any points.

EDIT: I'm not sure this belongs entirely in Alt-Coin section, although I do most of my discussion about it there. This IS bitcoin. It's the same client that everyone uses and it's Bitcoin through and through. I would argue that discussion about the benefits of Testnet-Bitcoin do belong here, some elements might be better served in the technical discussion area. Although I think testnet talk does indeed belong up here.

Don't try to convince me that scripts have a huge potential, I know it. What is not acceptable is making Testnet valuable. Developpers say that Testnet can be bogus.
If you want to have some op codes accepted in Bitcoin, you must convince people to test them thoroughly in Testnet. Then ask the devs to include them.

Looks like you're saying that experimentations will only be done in Testnet if they are valuable but that is wrong. Vulnerabilities in Testnet have been spotted in the past and proven there. Moreover, if Testnet had any value, this would require a hard fork each time.
Same thing for BIPs. How could we test them if Testnet is valuable?

I see what you mean, but making it the way you see it would induce a big loss. As a dev I need a network to test my things with worthless coins and I'm far from being the only one.
If you want an altcoin with scripts enabled, either make a fork, ask the devs to make one, or ask them to make 3 networks (Bitcoin, Betacoin and Testnet) in Bitcoin. I would gladly support either.

[crazy_rabbit]

If you want an altcoin with scripts enabled, either make a fork, ask the devs to make one, or ask them to make 3 networks (Bitcoin, Betacoin and Testnet) in Bitcoin. I would gladly support either.

Betacoin is a very good idea actually. While I assume it's possible to put your client on different versions of the bitcoin testnet- is this something that can be done in the bitcoin.conf file? For example testnet=1 testnetversion=3?

So one testnet version could be reserved for exactly what you're talking about?

[StarenseN]

good initiative, launch a faucet like the mojo one http://testnet.mojocoin.com/

[crazy_rabbit]

good initiative, launch a faucet like the mojo one http://testnet.mojocoin.com/

It's a very nice faucet. I donate to Mojo's faucet.

[Vince Torres]

Can't the testnet be reset at any time by the devs?

[jackjack]

Can't the testnet be reset at any time by the devs?

Yes

[playtin]

I'm giving away free Testnet Bitcoins in an effort to raise awareness about the Bitcoin Testnet.

What is your reason for doing this?

Wow, people don't even read entire sentences anymore! Repeating myself- (and the quote you made) - to raise awareness about the Bitcoin Testnet. Most people using bitcoin don't even know it exists, let alone that it's built right into your client.

LOL, at the same time developers use debuggers, are you going to raise awareness about debuggers too?
For those that don't know it, testnet is sort of a debugging tool that is used by the Bitcoin developers. It's only value is to find bugs. Testnet coins have no real value so they can be used for testing.

crazy_rabbit wants to monetize testnet for a really long time.
Surely he has a shitload of them.

I see. The topic should be moved to " Alternate cryptocurrencies", or once crazy_rabbit tries to sell them to "Scam Accusations". (Testnet can be restarted anytime once Bitcoin developers feel a need for it. All current testnet coins are invalidated by a restart)

[crazy_rabbit]

Can't the testnet be reset at any time by the devs?

Yes

That's not really true- they can't flip a switch and have everyones bitcoin client go *poof*. They push out a new update to the client, which in the testnet part of the code gives it a new genesis block which starts a new chain. The old chain still exists however. It works like bitcoin, they can't reset your bitcoin either. I would prefer they DONT reset the chain so that people can create longer term experiments, however if they did, worse case scenario, you could still stay on testnet version 3.

[crazy_rabbit]

I'm giving away free Testnet Bitcoins in an effort to raise awareness about the Bitcoin Testnet.

What is your reason for doing this?

Wow, people don't even read entire sentences anymore! Repeating myself- (and the quote you made) - to raise awareness about the Bitcoin Testnet. Most people using bitcoin don't even know it exists, let alone that it's built right into your client.

LOL, at the same time developers use debuggers, are you going to raise awareness about debuggers too?
For those that don't know it, testnet is sort of a debugging tool that is used by the Bitcoin developers. It's only value is to find bugs. Testnet coins have no real value so they can be used for testing.

crazy_rabbit wants to monetize testnet for a really long time.
Surely he has a shitload of them.

I see. The topic should be moved to " Alternate cryptocurrencies", or once crazy_rabbit tries to sell them to "Scam Accusations". (Testnet can be restarted anytime once Bitcoin developers feel a need for it. All current testnet coins are invalidated by a restart)

But this is exactly the point and what is so frustrating about new users who just pop in to talk shit about ideas without bothering to read anything about what people are saying. I'm saying that there are bigger concepts in bitcoin which need 'debugging' that goes beyond just testing to see if your software works. Indeed for the basic stuff you have testnet in a box (on github). But for other things, like learning how non-standard transactions might work in an economy with exchanges and trading, you need to run a larger experiment. Bitcoin itself is an experiment, but it's gotten so valuable that everyone is extremely conservative about what they allow to be changed. Satoshi's vision included much more interesting things then just trading bitcoin's for money, and you can't debug non-standard transactions on the bitcoins chain- its too risky.

[jackjack]

Can't the testnet be reset at any time by the devs?

Yes

No, it can't. Developers can reset TestNet only with new Bitcoin client released, by changing genesis block (won't happen since they would lose
millions of coins they mined) or checkpoint(s). The fact TestNet genesis block was never reseted speaks about what developers really are up to,
basically they don't want late adopters to have more Testnet coins than they think late adopters should have.

That's not what he is asking. Yes the devs can reset Testnet. Period.

Except if for you changing the genesis block doesn't reset testnet because people can still use a modified client to access the old one. That's true but noone will ever give a fuck if the satoshi client doesn't include it

[crazy_rabbit]

Can't the testnet be reset at any time by the devs?

Yes

No, it can't. Developers can reset TestNet only with new Bitcoin client released, by changing genesis block (won't happen since they would lose
millions of coins they mined) or checkpoint(s). The fact TestNet genesis block was never reseted speaks about what developers really are up to,
basically they don't want late adopters to have more Testnet coins than they think late adopters should have.

That's not what he is asking. Yes the devs can reset Testnet. Period.

Thats an inaccurate way of phrasing it. You make it sound like they reach into your Bitcoin client and erase your copy of the Bitcoin testnet blockchain. If you were right then testnets wouldn't have versions denoting the current version. Testnet Version 3 is the current one. If they just wiggled into your computer to reset your testnet, we would still be on version 1 no?

[quote'
Except if for you changing the genesis block doesn't reset testnet because people can still use a modified client to access the old one. That's true but noone will ever give a fuck if the satoshi client doesn't include it
[/quote]

That depends. People give quite a lot of fucks about random projects like AnotherBullshitCloneCone1 or Another BullshitCloneCoin2. A lot of energy is frittered away on projets like these. It would be better if the lessons learned could be applied to bitcoin, rather then be wasted on another fly by night coin.

[jackjack]

Can't the testnet be reset at any time by the devs?

Yes

No, it can't. Developers can reset TestNet only with new Bitcoin client released, by changing genesis block (won't happen since they would lose
millions of coins they mined) or checkpoint(s). The fact TestNet genesis block was never reseted speaks about what developers really are up to,
basically they don't want late adopters to have more Testnet coins than they think late adopters should have.

That's not what he is asking. Yes the devs can reset Testnet. Period.

Thats an inaccurate way of phrasing it. You make it sound like they reach into your Bitcoin client and erase your copy of the Bitcoin testnet blockchain. If you were right then testnets wouldn't have versions denoting the current version. Testnet Version 3 is the current one. If they just wiggled into your computer to reset your testnet, we would still be on version 1 no?

Except if for you changing the genesis block doesn't reset testnet because people can still use a modified client to access the old one. That's true but noone will ever give a fuck if the satoshi client doesn't include it

That depends. People give quite a lot of fucks about random projects like AnotherBullshitCloneCone1 or Another BullshitCloneCoin2. A lot of energy is frittered away on projets like these. It would be better if the lessons learned could be applied to bitcoin, rather then be wasted on another fly by night coin.

It's very accurate if you don't take only one sentence.

Yes the devs can reset Testnet. Except if for you changing the genesis block doesn't reset testnet because people can still use a modified client to access the old one.

It depends on what people think Testnet is.
If it is the network you reach by 'bitcoin-qt -testnet', they can definitely reset it, whatever people think or want.
If it is the network called Testnet3, of course they can't 'reset' it. But all your justifications about how it is better than an altcoin would become pointless.

Also, the point is not what they did but what they can do.