Is Avalon mining with customer hardware? Answer is here.

[gdassori]

Oooh, what a BIG surprise!!!        

then you hoped that one who manufactures machines for "generating money" sells them immediately without using them before?

how cute you are! 

[kevcoins]

The best is give them an unused pool mining account, and they can do testing etc.. but all the coins they mine goes back to you ...

[reactor]

The thing I haven't seen anyone mention (don't care much for Avalon so I haven't read all 11 pages) is the systematic cashout we've seen on Gox over the last so many weeks.  The price went down from $130 to $110 and has been hovering around $100 (all USD) in dramatic sales that have been unmatched by buys.

My guess is that both Avalon and AsicMiner are cashing out (your shares, your Avalon pre-orders, they're 2-10x on your money to make them rich) with no real care for the industry.  They were there first with ASIC's, they have the obvious Asian connection so reduced shipping times, the buddy system, etc., and now before we see a lot delivering from both there are HUGE cashouts. 

Now you can have your product with BTC down 25% in value and the difficulty screaming up.

Not a conspiracy theorist here, I've got a BFL order in since early 2013 and I'd hope alongside their mass production they're test-mining units, but I agree entirely that since all these operations were and are effectively crowd-funded they should return testing profit to the community.  And not just by being assholes and selling it off to "put the BTC back into circulation", aka what people say when they want to cash out for fiat.

[kano]

...
except maybe few Jalapenos who will never make their BTC back..  Batch 2 Avalon should at least return me the BTC invested, and some more.. This is fine.  Jalapenos that is a complete lost forever, this is not fine !
...

If Jalapenos won't make their money back then there is no chance in hell for anyone with a batch #3 Avalon ... Zero.

What does a Jalapeno cost? $300?
Say difficulty was 75million - it would take 83 days to get ~$300

What did an Avalon batch #3 cost? ~80BTC?
Say difficulty was 75million - it would take 178 days to get 80 BTC ...

Then of course there's the fact that the Avalon uses 1.5 times the power per MH/s that a Jalapeno does.

Maybe Batch #2 is OK, but not a chance for anyone in batch #3 while Avalon mines away on the hardware pushing the difficulty up.

People seem to forget the ongoing comments about how BFL keeps missing their deadlines but Avalon met their deadlines ...
So assuming that Avalon being on time wasn't all complete bullshit, then what have they been doing with the hardware they said they could make 8 a day back in January ...

[batman, not crabman]

These guys are pretty smart, right?  If they were going to mine for profit don't you think they'd do it solo rather than on a pool where everyone can see?  They certainly have the hash power.
Having said that I still agree that testing profits should go to the people that bought the miners.

[titomane]

It seems impossible. What would have made any in place? As long as your customer reach ROI.
With the chips will not, because they will not soldering and desoldering. But send delayed until the batch 3.

[coinedBit]

all those analogies are nice, but they often tend to ignore time-decay because of increasing difficulty and because of increasing ASIC adoption rate.

So if you are really into analogies, it's more like selling a farm of cows or chicken even though you perfectly-well know that they have reached their EOL, because their past output (eggs/milk) is higher than their likely future outputs. Basically, they got their efforts sponsored through crowd-funding, and were consuming subsequent output as a freebie while delaying pre-orders. Now, unlike custom bitcoin ASIC hardware, chickens and cows can actually be sold after their output drops, to become hamburgers and chicken-burgers ... but I have never heard of an ASIC burger yet! 

[titomane]

all those analogies are nice, but they often tend to ignore time-decay because of increasing difficulty and because of increasing ASIC adoption rate.

So if you are really into analogies, it's more like selling a farm of cows or chicken even though you perfectly-well know that they have reached their EOL, because their past output (eggs/milk) is higher than their likely future outputs. Basically, they got their efforts sponsored through crowd-funding, and were consuming subsequent output as a freebie while delaying pre-orders. Now, unlike custom bitcoin ASIC hardware, chickens and cows can actually be sold after their output drops, to become hamburgers and chicken-burgers ... but I have never heard of an ASIC burger yet! 

jajajajjaja

+19,339,258   Diff today

[jimmy3dita]

IMHO the real point is: Avalon (or whatever) generates blocks with your hardware "for testing" on the normal network, bumping difficulty up and giving you (once shipped) a device with less value - for the exact amount of BTC already mined by them.

This is even worse if we think that every discovered block lowers the asic value, so timing is critical.

Anyone that's doing tests before shipping must use the testnet, no matter what.

And yes, this "pay months in advance" s**t should end by now.

[binaryFate]

Anyone that's doing tests before shipping must use the testnet, no matter what.

Mining on main net using an address provided by the consumer would be fair too. These coins belong to the person who paid for the machine, since the machine is ready and delivery date is (largely) behind.
In the first place, the consumer who paid in advance took the risk, not the crowd-funded company. He/She is the person to be rewarded for this. Avalon should seek long-term costumer satisfaction so people would order a second machine in the future, rather than immediate profit they steal to the pre-orders customers.

[Nemesis]

You guys are funny,

Dont bother fcking complaining because at the time of ordering your batch2 and batch 3, you accepted no QUESTIONs term.

[koob]

You guys are funny,

Dont bother fcking complaining because at the time of ordering your batch2 and batch 3, you accepted no QUESTIONs term.

We also accepted delivery date which is far behind. With on time delivery I would be probably hitting my ROI by now,

[Bitcoinorama]

You guys are funny,

Dont bother fcking complaining because at the time of ordering your batch2 and batch 3, you accepted no QUESTIONs term.

We also accepted delivery date which is far behind. With on time delivery I would be probably hitting my ROI by now,

Yes, admittedly BitSyncom broke the terms of agreement first; therefore there is every right to complain, it's not as if it's being done as viciously as that directed towards Butterfly Labs.

[silverserpent]

this is another sad day in the history book of Bitcoin. What I had wanted to doubt for so long seems to be con-
clusive now. Add they continue to just trickle orders out - only 10 units this month
(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AluBwkoeuzdndG5GRk10Qk8wU0FDWU1DLUxCVS1CV2c#gid=0)

Avalon price s/b adjusted to reflect adjusted Diff levels - probably bring it back to 45-50 BTC per Batch 2 unit;
even less for Batch 3ers. After all, they are more than 2-3 months late on Batch 2 (2nd original ship date for
Batch 2 was April 15).

Just issue a rebate/refund to the same address order payment was sent from.

[Xialla]

You guys are funny,

Dont bother fcking complaining because at the time of ordering your batch2 and batch 3, you accepted no QUESTIONs term.

We also accepted delivery date which is far behind. With on time delivery I would be probably hitting my ROI by now,

Yes, admittedly BitSyncom broke the terms of agreement first...

yes and same situation will be with chips. first zefirs batch was ordered 16/4 and they promise to deliver chips in 9-10 weeks. so next week we should expect delivery?.) I don't think so..terrahash, bitmine and other groups ordered one week earlier then zefir. Why they don't have their chips yet...?

[koob]

this is another sad day in the history book of Bitcoin. What I had wanted to doubt for so long seems to be con-
clusive now. Add they continue to just trickle orders out - only 10 units this month
(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AluBwkoeuzdndG5GRk10Qk8wU0FDWU1DLUxCVS1CV2c#gid=0)

There are not even 60 orders on that spreadsheat out of 600.

[bennybong]

I myself am not entirely convinced that Avalon have been mining maybe there is a rouge employee that is switching them to pools when 'no one is looking' (after work hours?).

But Avalon stated in one of their first announcements that they use their own custom software to test the chips.... Like all chip manufacturer would have. You do not need to have it mining on the live network to know of they will work.

We still do not know what their 'security issues' were… how do we know they didn't have a load of chips/machines robbed from them? Damn easy and highly profitable crime to commit, especially in China…

[silverserpent]

this is another sad day in the history book of Bitcoin. What I had wanted to doubt for so long seems to be con-
clusive now. Add they continue to just trickle orders out - only 10 units this month
(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AluBwkoeuzdndG5GRk10Qk8wU0FDWU1DLUxCVS1CV2c#gid=0)

There are not even 60 orders on that spreadsheat out of 600.

people usually only disclose once they receive their order

[Bitcoinorama]

I myself am not entirely convinced that Avalon have been mining maybe there is a rouge employee that is switching them to pools when 'no one is looking' (after work hours?).

But Avalon stated in one of their first announcements that they use their own custom software to test the chips.... Like all chip manufacturer would have. You do not need to have it mining on the live network to know of they will work.

We still do not know what their 'security issues' were… how do we know they didn't have a load of chips/machines robbed from them? Damn easy and highly profitable crime to commit, especially in China…

Genuinely, with all the best and fairest intentions on my part I don't believe that, sorry.

[Bitcoinorama]

You guys are funny,

Dont bother fcking complaining because at the time of ordering your batch2 and batch 3, you accepted no QUESTIONs term.

We also accepted delivery date which is far behind. With on time delivery I would be probably hitting my ROI by now,

Yes, admittedly BitSyncom broke the terms of agreement first...

yes and same situation will be with chips. first zefirs batch was ordered 16/4 and they promise to deliver chips in 9-10 weeks. so next week we should expect delivery?.) I don't think so..terrahash, bitmine and other groups ordered one week earlier then zefir. Why they don't have their chips yet...?

Wasn't aware Terrahash (who I'm pretty confident of), have released any details or proof of any bulk chip order from BitSyncom yet...