Is Avalon mining with customer hardware? Answer is here.

[rovchris]

This is pathetic.  If you're still able to retrieve your nose, I'd recommend it.  I'm not saying you need to attack them, I'm still of the opinion that what they are fairly honest.  Hold them responsible for their promises though.

I don't feel a promise has been broken.  Never have.

I placed an order, knowing that it was risky, including delivery time.  I fully expected the delivery schedule to slip.  And all signs are that he's busting his butt to get work done.  That's cool by me.

I know stuff happens, and I would much rather have a business relationship with an ethical, smart, hard-working person who isn't on the forums all the time, than someone who is unethical, not smart, or lazy.

So far, Yifu has earned the benefit of the doubt, and I don't feel the least bit let down.   When it comes, it comes.

Buddy I envy your tolerance but the issue is this - it's not a playstaion its a business tool.

People invest based on what return they are going to get - nothing more nothing less.

Let me give you an example - my company builds out data centres - when asked on project time scales we have to deliver in the time we say - because they factor that into the equation of how quickly they can go live with their infrastructure and hence how quickly they can turn a profit.

If we say 3 months and then we take 9 months. Number 1 we would have the living shit sued out of us because they would be unable to make their projected profits and possibly not have the capital to sit around for six months scratching their nuts. If we had told them 9 months at the start they may have never ventured down that road. On top of that - if their business was time sensitive i.e. the longer it takes to get to the market the total they could earn diminishes it would be catastrophic.

This is exactly the case for the ASIC miners. None of the companies have behaved in what would be considered a professional manner in any other industry and this is fact. I will say though in Avalon's defence  they are by far the best of bad bunch.

[1714542327]

1714542327

[coinedBit]

+1

[Flying Hellfish]

This is pathetic.  If you're still able to retrieve your nose, I'd recommend it.  I'm not saying you need to attack them, I'm still of the opinion that what they are fairly honest.  Hold them responsible for their promises though.

I don't feel a promise has been broken.  Never have.

I placed an order, knowing that it was risky, including delivery time.  I fully expected the delivery schedule to slip.  And all signs are that he's busting his butt to get work done.  That's cool by me.

I know stuff happens, and I would much rather have a business relationship with an ethical, smart, hard-working person who isn't on the forums all the time, than someone who is unethical, not smart, or lazy.

So far, Yifu has earned the benefit of the doubt, and I don't feel the least bit let down.   When it comes, it comes.

Buddy I envy your tolerance but the issue is this - it's not a playstaion its a business tool.

People invest based on what return they are going to get - nothing more nothing less.

Let me give you an example - my company builds out data centres - when asked on project time scales we have to deliver in the time we say - because they factor that into the equation of how quickly they can go live with their infrastructure and hence how quickly they can turn a profit.

If we say 3 months and then we take 9 months. Number 1 we would have the living shit sued out of us because they would be unable to make their projected profits and possibly not have the capital to sit around for six months scratching their nuts. If we had told them 9 months at the start they may have never ventured down that road. On top of that - if their business was time sensitive i.e. the longer it takes to get to the market the total they could earn diminishes it would be catastrophic.

This is exactly the case for the ASIC miners. None of the companies have behaved in what would be considered a professional manner in any other industry and this is fact. I will say though in Avalon's defence  they are by far the best of bad bunch.

Absolutely agree with the bolded.  And to further your analogy I am assuming your company doesn't get 100% payment for the job before you do a single fucking thing LOL at best I am sure you get a small deposit and possibly a substantial payment on substantial completion (if your lucky and the deal was structured like that).  If the BTC world isn't the modern wild west ATM then I don't know what is!

[rovchris]

Totally correct - We invoice on completion and then the customer has 30 days to pay. Only a new client would be required to pay a 30% deposit. I think that is called normal business!

[binaryFate]

Well, basically, some time is needed to get BTC hardware building companies that are more professional. At this time the market will be based on price vs performance of machines, and not as until now the sole fact to be among the firsts possible opportunities.

Do the current companies aim at being future actors on the scene middle-term? To get a glimpse, just look how they place themselves on the trade-off between
(i) long-term customer statisfaction, and
(ii) immediate optimization of profit.

If they go for (ii) (that might be a caricature, but say they just go a bit too much for (ii)), they will just keep existing as long as getting pre-orders for next batch (or generation) brings higher profits than just running away with current money. Many ways to run away smoothly: for instance "create" whatever financial problems that leads to official bankruptcy, then just keep remaining machines to mine for yourself. You lose your reputation but happily enjoy the rest of your life on some heaven islands. What's happening here with avalon, if it's confirmed, reveals exactly this lack of long-term views and therefore it brings the possibility of the island scenario, sooner or later.

[JaredR26]

This is exactly the case for the ASIC miners. None of the companies have behaved in what would be considered a professional manner in any other industry and this is fact. I will say though in Avalon's defence  they are by far the best of bad bunch.

Just curious, but in what way has Asicminer/Bitfountain acted unprofessional?  High priced?  Sure, I'll give you that, easy(Clearly not too high though, hence selling out).  But unprofessional?  I heard of one guy who emailed wanting to buy and didn't get a prompt response, right about when they sold out.  That's the most unprofessional thing I've heard of from AM.  Did I miss something?

[auto2nr1]

FUD everywhere by people who can't do math.

1. these are not batch #1,2 or 3 units.
2. all the openWRT firmware is burnt from a single image in batches,
3. the openWRT is used in more than just production units.
4. all burn-in is 24 or more hours, you all think we seriously only would have 700+ bitcoins if they were mining? LOL
        I can't believe I'm repeating myself by saying we are not mining with batch #2 or #3 units.
5. complains will just lead into refunds, since clearly people are not happy with Avalon ASIC.
        personally I'd love to issue these refunds so these people can go find the next thing to complain about and I can get some peace n quiet.
6. I'm going back to deal with trade-in and damaged orders.

What a terrible way to respond to the situation at hand here. How old is this guy again? I would think he is old enough to provide some customer support in a professional manner. I don't understand why he would represent his company like this. We need more manufacturers/developers to step up it up in this game so Avalon is not one of the few companies that we can go to for product. This is why competition is always good in any market. We need more competition to stomp these guys out. Great product + customer service goes a long way.

[rograz]

Ah so it's here everyone is hanging out now, I was looking in the BFL threads but didn't find anyone. So what's the deal and who has an extra pitchfork? 

[coinedBit]

Ah so it's here everyone is hanging out now, I was looking in the BFL threads but didn't find anyone. So what's the deal and who has an extra pitchfork? 

this is page 15 of the the thread, meanwhile pitchforks have been turned in for flame throwers since page 11 already.

(never bring a pitchfork to a good ol' flame thrower BBQ)

[rovchris]

This is exactly the case for the ASIC miners. None of the companies have behaved in what would be considered a professional manner in any other industry and this is fact. I will say though in Avalon's defence  they are by far the best of bad bunch.

Just curious, but in what way has Asicminer/Bitfountain acted unprofessional?  High priced?  Sure, I'll give you that, easy(Clearly not too high though, hence selling out).  But unprofessional?  I heard of one guy who emailed wanting to buy and didn't get a prompt response, right about when they sold out.  That's the most unprofessional thing I've heard of from AM.  Did I miss something?

You are right I was probably a bit too broad there. My gripe with them is this - Bitcoin is about decentralisation and they are heading in the opposite direction. Part of the reason you me and everyone else is here is down to the current FIAT currency systems and the centralised control and generation of money. ASICMiner are establishing themselves as just that. This is not what Bitcoin was about - it was all about removing power from a few individual PRIVATE organisations (which central banks effectively are) and giving it to the people, so we won't have a repeat of 2008 as was stated in the white paper on Bitcoins.

A further bit of speculation and it is just that - What would stop BFL or Avalon or any of the other manufactures creating another company (if they have not already) selling / giving their devices to the other company they own and then mining? That way you can plead innocence but the truth is quite the opposite. There have been so many delays when devices have been available for quite some time it rouses suspicion.

ASICminer may have just been a great deal more honest in that respect but still does not help anyone else.

[JaredR26]

This is exactly the case for the ASIC miners. None of the companies have behaved in what would be considered a professional manner in any other industry and this is fact. I will say though in Avalon's defence  they are by far the best of bad bunch.

Just curious, but in what way has Asicminer/Bitfountain acted unprofessional?  High priced?  Sure, I'll give you that, easy(Clearly not too high though, hence selling out).  But unprofessional?  I heard of one guy who emailed wanting to buy and didn't get a prompt response, right about when they sold out.  That's the most unprofessional thing I've heard of from AM.  Did I miss something?

You are right I was probably a bit too broad there. My gripe with them is this - Bitcoin is about decentralisation and they are heading in the opposite direction. Part of the reason you me and everyone else is here is down to the current FIAT currency systems and the centralised control and generation of money. ASICMiner are establishing themselves as just that. This is not what Bitcoin was about - it was all about removing power from a few individual PRIVATE organisations (which central banks effectively are) and giving it to the people, so we won't have a repeat of 2008 as was stated in the white paper on Bitcoins.

A further bit of speculation and it is just that - What would stop BFL or Avalon or any of the other manufactures creating another company (if they have not already) selling / giving their devices to the other company they own and then mining? That way you can plead innocence but the truth is quite the opposite. There have been so many delays when devices have been available for quite some time it rouses suspicion.

ASICminer may have just been a great deal more honest in that respect but still does not help anyone else.

I see your point from a mining perspective - Asicminer definitely has a massive share of the network mining power - But I think Asicminer is actually better than Avalon and BFL about removing power from a few individual private organizations.  Asicminer is nearly 40% publicly owned, and pays its shareholders, thus distributing funds back to the masses.  Avalon and BFL are both privately owned.  100% of their profits go directly to the owners, creating a new set of private organizations in control.

[rovchris]

OK fair point! But do the share holders actually have a say in anything? Or is that just down to board members? Barclays bank has a large number of share holders but you don't get to say anything about how they run their organisation. My issue is not with the distribution of what profits they make (which in all honesty can be manipulated by exaggerating costs) it is to do with control. There may be only a couple of people actually who are the actual decision makers and that is where the problem lies.

[slythytove]

Aimed vaguely at a reply I can't find right now:

I know the difficulty is increasing but if they run it for a day and you run it for the rest of its/your life, is it such a biggie? Maybe your break-even gets pushed back a day or two because of that. It's gonna get pushed way further out when all the rest get delivered.

And regarding the various manufacturers collaborating on deliver times, how do you know they haven't?

FD: I have 20 chips on the way. If I get one block reward before the next halving I'll be happy. Maybe it'll find another one one day if I'm still running it and the stars align. If I do I'll probably need it!

[rovchris]

Aimed vaguely at a reply I can't find right now:

I know the difficulty is increasing but if they run it for a day and you run it for the rest of its/your life, is it such a biggie? Maybe your break-even gets pushed back a day or two because of that. It's gonna get pushed way further out when all the rest get delivered.

And regarding the various manufacturers collaborating on deliver times, how do you know they haven't?

FD: I have 20 chips on the way. If I get one block reward before the next halving I'll be happy. Maybe it'll find another one one day if I'm still running it and the stars align. If I do I'll probably need it!

It is a biggie to be honest - because they did not pay for them at the end of the day and technically it could be considered theft as it is your property. I have never know any company ever that test their customers products in a live situation - Do Cisco run the switches you have paid for in their Data Centres generating revenue for themselves before handing them over to you under the guise of testing? No of course they do not because they are a respectable organisation.

Unless every test is identical using the same data sets - it can not really be classed as quality controlled test can it? How would you know when you look at the results if there were discrepancies between devices if they had all used different input data - all the output data would be different and no one would be the wiser.

Anyone that has ever undertaken any software testing will tell you this.

They are just blatantly using your fully paid for device to make themselves a quick bit of cash on the side.

So not only have you provided them an interest free loan at no risk to themselves to develop the device they are then delaying shipping under the pretence of testing - when mining especially now with the rapid increases in difficulty is extremely time sensitive and every hour you do not have it  - is money you can never make due to the limited number of blocks.

[jspielberg]

By that argument, should the 100BTC batch 3 customers go before the 75BTC Batch 2?  Clearly that doesn't make sense.

[01BTC10]

By that argument, should the 100BTC batch 3 customers go before the 75BTC Batch 2?  Clearly that doesn't make sense.

The 75BTC batch#2 was paid 2 weeks before 55BTC batch#2.

[rovchris]

By that argument, should the 100BTC batch 3 customers go before the 75BTC Batch 2?  Clearly that doesn't make sense.

LOL

[rovchris]

By that argument, should the 100BTC batch 3 customers go before the 75BTC Batch 2?  Clearly that doesn't make sense.

The 75BTC batch#2 was paid 2 weeks before 55BTC batch#2.

If that is true and have no reason to doubt you - I can only assume the price difference was down to the change in Dollar BTC price. So in essence everyone has paid the same.

[01BTC10]

By that argument, should the 100BTC batch 3 customers go before the 75BTC Batch 2?  Clearly that doesn't make sense.

The 75BTC batch#2 was paid 2 weeks before 55BTC batch#2.

If that is true and have no reason to doubt you - I can only assume the price difference was down to the change in Dollar BTC price. So in essence everyone has paid the same.

Lots of people say the same think but I bought this miner to get more BTC not more $ otherwise I would had kept my BTC. Some customers that paid 2 weeks later with less BTC are now already mining and will get a better ROI in term of BTC than those that paid earlier with more BTC.

I really don't care about $ I'm only thinking in term of BTC.

[Flying Hellfish]

By that argument, should the 100BTC batch 3 customers go before the 75BTC Batch 2?  Clearly that doesn't make sense.

The 75BTC batch#2 was paid 2 weeks before 55BTC batch#2.

If that is true and have no reason to doubt you - I can only assume the price difference was down to the change in Dollar BTC price. So in essence everyone has paid the same.

When you purchase hardware with BTC and it has one single purpose to mine BTC LDO, you can ignore the exchange rate as the only way of assessing ROI is by measuring ROI in BTC the device will produce.  ie if it produces less BTC than you spent you should have held on to the BTC as it would have netted you more profit, if it produces more BTC you've made a good purchase and netted more profit than holding.  This is what these guys are complaining about and that is why you can ignore the exchange rate.