Miners have full control of Bitcoin price. Nobody can trust a system like this.

[tomwrx]

The way I see it, is that miners follow the price trend. BTC price increasing - more and more people or companies entering btc mining. e.g. It's the same with some unknown altcoin mining - it's barely profitbale, so just few people are mining it and difficulty is low. As soon as coin price increases (because of positive news or other factors), other miners spot a possibility for a profit and start mining that coin, thus mining difficulty increases.

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[kaloloy]

Indeed, before it is the Big Whales are actually manipulating Bitcoin's price to surge up the value and make huge profits but today when a large scale miners were shifting from one currency to another would have a different story but the effects are the same. When they leave Bitcoin mining and and they are leaving thousands of transactions (that transaction delay can be shorten by the help of miners) to small scale miners while hash rate still very high then Bitcoin network is slowing down.
They're making profits because Bitcoin Cash transaction delay is minimal and new users will be comfortable and secured.

[gentlemand]

The way I see it, is that miners follow the price trend.

It depends on the miner. The very biggest will control enough mining power to spook the market and will have enough coins to be able to move it also. There are thousands more who'll follow what he does.

[garytheasshole]

Indeed, before it is the Big Whales are actually manipulating Bitcoin's price to surge up the value and make huge profits but today when a large scale miners were shifting from one currency to another would have a different story but the effects are the same. When they leave Bitcoin mining and and they are leaving thousands of transactions (that transaction delay can be shorten by the help of miners) to small scale miners while hash rate still very high then Bitcoin network is slowing down.
They're making profits because Bitcoin Cash transaction delay is minimal and new users will be comfortable and secured.

Secured? Surely you mean isolated from the whole bitcoin economy. Nobody accepts BCH.

[castiel0504]

I thought this was market manipulation from people that have left S2X? Instead of miners controlling BCH/BTC.. Of course they transferred to mine Bitcoin Cash at the moment because is rising like madman, but i read on some reddit comment that some Hard Fork is happening on 13th november, maybe price is going like crazy because of that?(not sure how much this info is true, i havent done any research about Bitcoin Cash)

[BitWolf~]

Wouldn't the difficulty just decrees as the network has lower hash rate? I see the difficulty down 6% as of 11/10. As it decreases the network should pick back up.

https://btc.com/stats/diff

[garytheasshole]

Wouldn't the difficulty just decrees as the network has lower hash rate? I see the difficulty down 6% as of 11/10. As it decreases the network should pick back up.

https://btc.com/stats/diff

Rough estimates are 15 days for the next difficulty adjustment, could be sooner or later depending how long BCH will remain profitable.

[WilderX]

Let me guess...  WilderX doesn't have BCH??

I do I hold few casascius coins meaning I own coins in all Bitcoin forks that exist now and in future.

I would like to see Bitcoin move to POS that would put a stop to all this gaming the miners are doing with the markets and Bitcoin would be able to scale better.

[WilderX]

OP, you are assuming that the price follows the hashrate, but it's wrong and in reality it's the opposite and what is currently happening is that people like Roger Ver and other big blockers with big pockets are frustrated over B2X's cancellation, so they have pumped BCH with their own money which they will lose because people will dump their BCH if they have it unclaimed since the fork day. Bitcoin is still in its early days, the market hasn't matured so the price can be shaken relatively easy, especially if it was near ATH after a big bull run but you can't really say that miners control the price.

LOL assuming? Below is the hashrate evolution of Bitcoin. It is a fact that the production cost of a unit ultimately dictates the price.

No, it's not, the value is always determined by supply and demand, production costs is simply the bottom line for value, because no one would produce something at a loss. But you can't simply put a lot of work into something and expect to sell it at higher price, buyers don't concern themselves with production costs, their price is based purely on their feelings. And with cryptocurrencies the price change always precedes the hashpower change because miners are following the most profitable chain at the moment - it's never the opposite, like you are describing, that miners put more work and the price rises. SegWit2x futures were trading at a fraction of Bitcoin's price, despite being backed by 90% of hashpower - by your logic, they should have had 90% of Bitcoin's price.

Yes you nailed it with "production costs is simple the bottom line for value" of course there is other factors like supply and demand, good/bad news pending etf listing, futures, Mt Gox fiasco.. China bans Bitcoin trading etc, but these have lesser effect Bitcoin price always settles based on the production cost.

You are talking about something that was only on paper where 90% of miners at the time said would support it, but it has not been in production so a fraction sounds right for bitcoin fork that has 0 hashes and 0 prodution cost in it.

The biggest miners are the insiders and few pools easily control over half of the hashpower they will do as they please.

[WilderX]

You're forgetting that markets tend to correct.
How exactly PoS is not making the rich richer? I fail to see your point.

I already explained in POS you can play your hand only once (dumb your stake) after that you have no more power over the system. In POW the largest miners can keep playing the system indefinitely.

POS changes everything.

1. In proof of work miners can play the system forever. They can dump their BTC when it's high and buy large amounts of BHC and start mining BHC which will rise it's price as you can see from the chart in the OP and what just happened over the past couple days. Then they dump BHC at 2-3 times the price and buy back BTC when it's low and move back to mining BTC... and on and on it goes and in the future it will be even worse when there are many more Bitcoin forks.

2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.

[gentlemand]

POS changes everything.

There are POS iterations that try to wipe out the staking advantage thing. NEM does Proof of Importance which places your success on your usefulness to the network rather than your hoarding.

[p90xinsanity]

the amount of market manipulation is insane. this is why sometimes things need to be regulated

[WilderX]

POS changes everything.

There are POS iterations that try to wipe out the staking advantage thing. NEM does Proof of Importance which places your success on your usefulness to the network rather than your hoarding.

Sounds like something easily exploited.

[WilderX]

177k unconfirmed transactions on BTC and counting... Wondering how bad the dumbing is going to be when those transactions finally do go through...

https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions

[BitWolf~]

It's down to 165k now See things are looking better already.
I want to point out the block rewards because of this -

Here are the last 5 blocks at the time of this post.

12.5 + 8.97069057 BTC
12.5 + 5.81207641 BTC
12.5 + 8.42500571 BTC
12.5 + 7.86277005 BTC
12.5 + 6.28012796 BTC

Let the idiots grind on empty BCH blocks = More for us!

[hakuna]

Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.

Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.

Yes, let's just let all the rich people buy all the coins so they'll control the coin, but without the electricity costs.

Sounds like a wonderful and impactful change.

It's the same as now, but people don't have to invest in equipment for mining, instead they have to invest in a token. I also believe POS is the future. 

[SMB-2525]

The premise of the post is wrong.

The only thing that controls the price of BTC in USD is the number of people willing to exchange USD for BTC and how much they are willing to pay.

I may be miners. It my be ordinary people, it may be professional investors.

Those who watched the stampede of minors into BCH and think it is a coordinated move are naive.

They moved into BCH because someone (not them) wanted to buy a lot of BCH and drove the price up. The miners followed this trend, they did not lead it.
Maybe BCH is being pumped. Maybe savvy investors see value there. Especially now that BTC will take a long tome to address their scaling problem.

Patience. Time will tell.

[coolstory]

Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.

Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.

Yes, let's just let all the rich people buy all the coins so they'll control the coin, but without the electricity costs.

Sounds like a wonderful and impactful change.

There is a new novel POS at work where even if you hold just one unit and stake you have a chance getting rewards.

Proof of stake system wouldn't change the situation mate. It doesn't bring anything new to bitcoin ecosystem. The problem is some groups, miners, bitcoin celebrities are doing hard manipulation in bitcoin and bitcoin cash. This is totally bad.

People like us need to be the role takers of this ecosystem. Mining it doesn't mean owning it totally.

[muncuss]

The premise of the post is wrong.

The only thing that controls the price of BTC in USD is the number of people willing to exchange USD for BTC and how much they are willing to pay.

I may be miners. It my be ordinary people, it may be professional investors.

Those who watched the stampede of minors into BCH and think it is a coordinated move are naive.

They moved into BCH because someone (not them) wanted to buy a lot of BCH and drove the price up. The miners followed this trend, they did not lead it.
Maybe BCH is being pumped. Maybe savvy investors see value there. Especially now that BTC will take a long tome to address their scaling problem.

Patience. Time will tell.

This.
I thought Whales who can manipulate the price, but in this thread miners seem have more power than whales or market/price manipulator.
(oh this is PoS coin, let's buy all the coin, we will have biggest reward, we will always get richer don't need to buy expensive hardware   )

[honeyb0y]

This is yet again demonstration how miners have total control over Bitcoin price and it's forks. Nobody can trust a system like this when few powerful people can change eveyrthing in a day.

Not as a store of value
Not as a currency
Not as anything really other than an instrument for the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer. This is same as FIAT. You have not accomplished much anything really.

Proof of Work is doomed. Proof of Stake is the future.

POS changes everything.

1. In proof of work miners can play the system forever. They can dump their BTC when it's high and buy large amounts of BHC and start mining BHC which will rise it's price as you can see from the chart in the OP and what just happened over the past couple days. Then they dump BHC at 2-3 times the price and buy back BTC when it's low and move back to mining BTC... and on and on it goes and in the future it will be even worse when there are many more Bitcoin forks.
2. In Proof of Stake you can dump your stake (your holdings) only once! Once that is done you are out of power over the system and you can't play the system forever like in proof of work.

https://fork.lol/pow/hashrate

We can say miners are like the early rich people, they have the advantage from new comers and new adopters of crypto currency. But once the time comes that most of the people are using Bitcoin then everything will somehow be leveled up.