The end is near

[notme]

Yeap what calender are you using?  If according to Mayan, we were gone in May

Just because the long count resets to 0 doesn't mean time ends.

[shawshankinmate37927]

Agreed, but although one of them got my vote last election (I'll let you guess which one) they didn't have a shot in hell of winning.  90% of people probably went to the polls as said "who the fuck are these guys?".  Unfortunately, in America if you aren't Democrat or Republican you are a fringe nut job and the media will paint you as such at every opportunity.

I agree that these guys don't have a shot in hell.  That's why I've abstained from the last few elections.

The OP is claiming that "we" have done nothing to deserve what's headed "our" way.  While you and I can have a clear conscience when the SHTF, those who vote for large, unsustainable government--and the large, unsustainable debt that comes along with it--will not be able to claim that they had nothing to do with it.  In fact, they will be completely responsible for it.

[BitcoinFX]

Well I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but anyway.

The world is in a serious serious mess. I don't think anybody understands, or will admit, HOW bad things are now (but they will soon). Even the more enlightened on these forums. The problem is, when you realize that the last 10, 20, 30 years - even more - have not been normal, you have to realize that there is no normal anymore. Markets of all nature have been propped up by governments everywhere. Markets are at the root of modern day capitalism, which is the systematic process that allows 6 billion humans (which share 99% of their DNA with a chimp) to exist together peacefully on earth. What governments have been doing in recent history is not normal and is not right. It appears that now we are at the beginning of the end of this "phony capitalism". It sounds almost out of this world to be talking about things like this.

How will the end look like? I really don't want to find out. I guess it's normal to fear the future - but, when the present looks this bad. It's almost better not to think of it. Capitalism has been the driving mechanism for human society, progress and prosperity in modern history. It is this driving engine that is now about to fail completely.

At the very minimum, I think every good thing that we have taken for granted in our western lifestyle - and there are so many things that it's almost impossible to imagine how we would live without them - will soon come under question. At the maximum, we are looking at total social collapse in all countries, anarchy and war never seen before on this planet. It's my opinion that every one of us will feel the effects of the coming economic and social meltdown. What is coming could easily be worse than anything seen before in modern history. The only comparison we have is the 1930's or early 1940's .... well, things can get alot worse than that.

What did we all do to deserve this? Nothing. We just had the misfortune to be alive on planet earth during this deeply troubling period.

The world is starting down the barrel of a loaded gun right now. Every human being is on the verge of having his/her society and social fabric completely destroyed and (taking an optimistic view about the future) re-written.

I really hope something good comes out of all of the pain and suffering that is about to arrive on our doorsteps.

Not sure what good can come from posting this message of doom here on the forums. I guess I'd like to be proved wrong.

“A pessimist is never disappointed.”

[Zangelbert Bingledack]

Capitalism has been the driving mechanism for human society, progress and prosperity in modern history. It is this driving engine that is now about to fail completely.

Capitalism, as in free trade and voluntary interaction, is not going to fail. Much of the establishment of corporatist inefficiency will be in turmoil and the collateral damage for everyone may be severe, but eventually the natural order will recover better and stronger than before.

Bitcoin may well be an integral part of that recovery process, but the Internet most definitely will. For whether Bitcoin plays a big role it's all a question of timing. And timing-wise we are in an odd position: every estimate of when the collapse will happen has been premature, yet when it actually does happen it will surprise in the opposite direction - earlier than we expect. That is, we are always expecting a collapse within 1-2 years, but 10 years later still nothing. Yet when the collapse finally does happen, it will blindside us because we'll still be expecting it not to happen for another 1-2 years, or maybe even 3-6 months, but not on a dime.

[MoonShadow]

Capitalism has been the driving mechanism for human society, progress and prosperity in modern history. It is this driving engine that is now about to fail completely.

Capitalism, as in free trade and voluntary interaction, is not going to fail. Much of the establishment of corporatist inefficiency will be in turmoil and the collateral damage for everyone may be severe, but eventually the natural order will recover better and stronger than before.

Bitcoin may well be an integral part of that recovery process, but the Internet most definitely will. For whether Bitcoin plays a big role it's all a question of timing. And timing-wise we are in an odd position: every estimate of when the collapse will happen has been premature, yet when it actually does happen it will surprise in the opposite direction - earlier than we expect. That is, we are always expecting a collapse within 1-2 years, but 10 years later still nothing. Yet when the collapse finally does happen, it will blindside us because we'll still be expecting it not to happen for another 1-2 years, or maybe even 3-6 months, but not on a dime.

Well, I've been expecting it within the next couple years for a decade already, and recent events make me wonder if we have more than a couple months.  But again, we never know in advance what the 'last straw' will be.  For the Brazilians, it was a 10 cent bus fare hike; for the founders of the United States, it was a 3 pence per pound tax on tea.  When a society is being attacked with a thousand cuts, it's hard to tell when you hit that last one.

[Adrian-x]

I agree that these guys don't have a shot in hell.  That's why I've abstained from the last few elections.

You always have a responsibility to vote! Even here in Canada prominent community leaders take your attitude and it is sad.

Not voting is called voter apathy and says I'm happy with the status quo. You have a responsibility to spoil your vote.

In apartheid South Africa where the election districts were rigged whites were told by the passive liberal educators to spoil there vote as a form of protest. It wasn't untilled the apartheid government had overwhelming spoil voters did they hold a referendum, to compromise on principles and negotiate with terrorists. 

[justusranvier]

You always have a responsibility to vote! Even here in Canada prominent community leaders take your attitude and it is sad.

Not voting is called voter apathy and says I'm happy with the status quo. You have a responsibility to spoil your vote.

Would you tell atheists they have a responsibility to "spoil their prayers" too?

[Adrian-x]

You always have a responsibility to vote! Even here in Canada prominent community leaders take your attitude and it is sad.

Not voting is called voter apathy and says I'm happy with the status quo. You have a responsibility to spoil your vote.

Would you tell atheists they have a responsibility to "spoil their prayers" too?

Lol, no atheist prayers = willing for luck.

[shawshankinmate37927]

You always have a responsibility to vote! Even here in Canada prominent community leaders take your attitude and it is sad.

Not voting is called voter apathy and says I'm happy with the status quo. You have a responsibility to spoil your vote.

In apartheid South Africa where the election districts were rigged whites were told by the passive liberal educators to spoil there vote as a form of protest. It wasn't untilled the apartheid government had overwhelming spoil voters did they hold a referendum, to compromise on principles and negotiate with terrorists. 

Sounds like you've bought in to the propaganda of the politicians.  When you participate in the democratic process you are only helping to legitimize it.  As far as I'm concerned, only when a libertarian-leaning candidate has a chance of winning is it worth my while to vote.  Otherwise, I agree with Doug Casey--it is my duty to not vote.  (http://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/doug-caseys-top-five-reasons-not-vote)

Agorism is a much more productive way to bring about change.  From the Wikipedia article on Agorism:

Agorists generally oppose voting for political candidates and political reform. Instead, agorists stress the importance of alternative strategies rather than politics to achieve a free society. Agorists claim that we can achieve a free society more easily and sooner by employing such alternative methods such as education, direct action, alternative currencies, entrepreneurship, self sufficiency, and most importantly "counter-economics".

[Adrian-x]

You always have a responsibility to vote! Even here in Canada prominent community leaders take your attitude and it is sad.

Not voting is called voter apathy and says I'm happy with the status quo. You have a responsibility to spoil your vote.

In apartheid South Africa where the election districts were rigged whites were told by the passive liberal educators to spoil there vote as a form of protest. It wasn't untilled the apartheid government had overwhelming spoil voters did they hold a referendum, to compromise on principles and negotiate with terrorists. 

Sounds like you've bought in to the propaganda of the politicians.  When you participate in the democratic process you are only helping to legitimize it.  As far as I'm concerned, only when a libertarian-leaning candidate has a chance of winning is it worth my while to vote.  Otherwise, I agree with Doug Casey--it is my duty to not vote.  (http://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/doug-caseys-top-five-reasons-not-vote)

Agorism is a much more productive way to bring about change.  From the Wikipedia article on Agorism:

Agorists generally oppose voting for political candidates and political reform. Instead, agorists stress the importance of alternative strategies rather than politics to achieve a free society. Agorists claim that we can achieve a free society more easily and sooner by employing such alternative methods such as education, direct action, alternative currencies, entrepreneurship, self sufficiency, and most importantly "counter-economics".

I am a flavor of librarian, I can't in good conscience vote for some one unless I agree 100% with them. To date it has just been me.
There is no more of a clear signal to politicians than a majority of voters choosing not to vote by spoiling the ballot. (Abstaining says voter apathy and that = keep doing what we're doing) so as long as we have a vote I will always spoil it. IMO Spoiling is a vote for Agorism and Abstaining is a vote saying I'll follow whoever wins.

[farfiman]

Well, I've been expecting it within the next couple years for a decade already, and recent events make me wonder if we have more than a couple months.  But again, we never know in advance what the 'last straw' will be.  For the Brazilians, it was a 10 cent bus fare hike; for the founders of the United States, it was a 3 pence per pound tax on tea.  When a society is being attacked with a thousand cuts, it's hard to tell when you hit that last one.

Because of this very long delay, lots of folks that would maybe start and listen to the preachers, just won't now.
The the main stream media basically ridicules these preachers because they have been saying it for so long .
The collapse could be postponed even a few more years which makes it even harder to convince anybody to prepare.

[tabnloz]

For some reason, it's encouraging to find this thread, despite the sad theme.

I feel like I've been holding my breath about this stuff since about the turn of the century.
Amazingly, most systems muddle along so far, with one unbelievable patch pasted over another.

The amazing thing about such things is the amount of inertia that faith in the system has to keep things going for a time, yet when faith in the system is lost change happens quite rapidly, and sometimes violently.  Look at Brazil over the past several days; they've been having economic issues for a long time, and have a government openly determined to suppress the trade value of the fiat currency for well over a year, but in the end it was a 10 cent hike in the price of public transit that was the trigger.  No leadership to arrest, no common theme, just a million people across the country that suddenly all had enough crap at once.  The United States has been running on public faith inertia since at least 2000, but the rash of federal scandals is severely undermining that faith.  When that 'faith bubble' finally pops, what happens next is anyone's guess.

Ive come to support the argument that society has traded convenience & safety for freedom. Meaning that the world over, the middle classes (baby boomers in particular) have struck some kind unspoken deal with the ruling classes. They get their creature comforts, expanding waistline, money in the bank and a belief that things always go up and in return they give away incremental amounts of liberty - things that would not have been stood for a short generation ago. Now everyone has big screen tv's, iphones, cars with tv's that broadcast mindless reality shows and no one worries about creeping deregulation, lobbying or the revolving government / corporate door. Wealth has risen and even though stocks and homes may have dropped they think they are always about to go up again soon. And of course, we're safe from the terrorists and criminals. That's why all these blatant scandals, rigging and schemes go unpunished.

Still, I just don't see a western nation having a Brazil moment just yet. The narrative and delivery by the MSM is just too strong.

But you just never know. As said change usually comes from a minor event unleashing a bigger force: Rosa Parks, the Tunisian who self immolated, bus fare hikes etc. What will be the tipping point in the West?

[firefop]

“A pessimist is never disappointed.”

How true.

Here's the thing... I don't think it's actually going to be anything spectacular. There will be a very brief period of time where sane people hide in their cellars while the 'average citizen with a firearm' plugs into his local community and helps defend it from the roaming gangs from the large cities. But after a few weeks/months all the idiots will have been shot or starved to death.

Then society will resume. It will be an utterly sane culture backed by morals and the willingness to respond with lethal force. Most of the creature comforts will return at that point, and people with the skills will step up to get everything working again.

OR

it could just end, and everyone could go on with their daily lives and be completely unaffected.

~

Take your pick.

[xavier]

Well I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but anyway.

The world is in a serious serious mess. I don't think anybody understands, or will admit, HOW bad things are now (but they will soon). Even the more enlightened on these forums. The problem is, when you realize that the last 10, 20, 30 years - even more - have not been normal, you have to realize that there is no normal anymore. Markets of all nature have been propped up by governments everywhere. Markets are at the root of modern day capitalism, which is the systematic process that allows 6 billion humans (which share 99% of their DNA with a chimp) to exist together peacefully on earth. What governments have been doing in recent history is not normal and is not right. It appears that now we are at the beginning of the end of this "phony capitalism". It sounds almost out of this world to be talking about things like this.

How will the end look like? I really don't want to find out. I guess it's normal to fear the future - but, when the present looks this bad. It's almost better not to think of it. Capitalism has been the driving mechanism for human society, progress and prosperity in modern history. It is this driving engine that is now about to fail completely.

At the very minimum, I think every good thing that we have taken for granted in our western lifestyle - and there are so many things that it's almost impossible to imagine how we would live without them - will soon come under question. At the maximum, we are looking at total social collapse in all countries, anarchy and war never seen before on this planet. It's my opinion that every one of us will feel the effects of the coming economic and social meltdown. What is coming could easily be worse than anything seen before in modern history. The only comparison we have is the 1930's or early 1940's .... well, things can get alot worse than that.

What did we all do to deserve this? Nothing. We just had the misfortune to be alive on planet earth during this deeply troubling period.

The world is starting down the barrel of a loaded gun right now. Every human being is on the verge of having his/her society and social fabric completely destroyed and (taking an optimistic view about the future) re-written.

I really hope something good comes out of all of the pain and suffering that is about to arrive on our doorsteps.

Not sure what good can come from posting this message of doom here on the forums. I guess I'd like to be proved wrong.

“A pessimist is never disappointed.”

It's obvious I'm missing something here because nobody ever can predict the future. And that has to be a good thing. This post is about as pessimistic as it gets; I have to admit. I apologize for that.

What is the optimistic point of view? I guess, there's a crash, some temporary chaos and then things quickly return to normal (hopefully with new, more integral politicians), except that maybe we all have a lot less wealth. Still, less, or even zero, wealth is better than having negative wealth (debt) which is all we have now. I guess things end up better in this case.

Probably there are many difficult things coming on the horizon, but probably also there are many good things to come out of it as well. Given all of this, I guess it's still better to be alive in 2013 than in 1213.

/end optimism, return to doomsday predictions

[MoonShadow]

...
Well, I've been expecting it within the next couple years for a decade already, and recent events make me wonder if we have more than a couple months.  But again, we never know in advance what the 'last straw' will be.  For the Brazilians, it was a 10 cent bus fare hike; for the founders of the United States, it was a 3 pence per pound tax on tea.  When a society is being attacked with a thousand cuts, it's hard to tell when you hit that last one.

The pebbles have been rolling for a long time, I think the shift in US markets at the end of the week was a boulder tumbling though and it could be the one that sets off the whole avalanche. Kind of ironic if it does, it happened after Bernanke hinted the fed might slow down on the money printing.

No, no; this wasn't it.  If there is nothing else I'm sure of, it's that the FedReserve will not do anything that will end the game early.  They know the con at least as well as outsiders, and they are dependent upon it's continuance.  They will do and say anything they can to fix it, even if that means completely backtracking on prior statements and actions.  If the trigger is monetary in nature, it can only be because Congress did something to deliberately disrupt the Fed's power, and I think too many of them know the score to consider such an action either.  Whatever the trigger is, it won't be directly due to monetary policy of the US.  Much more likely is that the trigger be related to the monetary policy of Japan or China, either of them could break the US Treasury now, it's just not been in their interests.  The Failure-to-deliver chart for US treasury bonds has tripled in the past three weeks.  The last time that has happened, Leaman Brothers was hung out to dry.  And that distraction barely worked the first time.

[DoomDumas]

This :

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/quickstart

[Anenome5]

Couple things.

First, the present system will keep going on for much longer than you think. The US dollar will be propped up worldwide because it's in everyone's interest to keep it there, since it's the reserve currency. Good for the US, bad for the world. Eventually countries holding dollars will cut their losses, let the dollar float, and the dollar will be screwed. Some speculate China is even planning to engineer this situation so as to offer the yuan as a replacement reserve currency.

But it's perhaps more likely that this would backfire and bitcoin could become the global reserve currency, since government control of currency would be what got the dollar into that position in the first place.

And you won't want to be in the US when the dollar tanks. It will be an entire generation of wealth lost or more than that. All fiat currencies eventually hyperinflate and fail and the US dollar will be no different.

However, there are always pockets that escape the turmoil of the day. I don't mean within the US, I mean places that thrive nonetheless. Like Venetia during the chaos of Constantinople being sacked; the Roman empire went down, Venetia lived on.

What we need is a new Venetia to the US's failing empire.

I suggest that the way forward, and what should give everyone optimism, is to build seasteads (/r/seasteading), free communities on the water, places where bitcoin will be a native currency and where political experimentation can flower into new desperately needed forms, forms that move beyond democracy, perhaps even abandoning it as the political crutch it was, now outdated, outmoded, discarded. The future belongs to political individualism, and abandoning democracy will mean abandoning the last element in society that clings to collectivism: politics. It will in fact mean the end of politics and the end of politicians, for political individualism constitutes a rejection of the idea that anyone should have the power to force laws on anyone else. Choose laws for yourself, each human a sovereign over their own life and own property.

That is a way forward that is truly new. And it's in such a society that people can prosper while Rome is burning.

I suspect we have at least a decade before any coming crash truly hits, and possibly more like 30 years before the crisis is unavoidable entirely.

[farfiman]

I suspect we have at least a decade before any coming crash truly hits, and possibly more like 30 years before the crisis is unavoidable entirely.

if this is true then most of the leaders of the world today couldn't give a crap...  nobody will blame them ( at least not while they are still alive...)

[Zarathustra]

Capitalism has been the driving mechanism for human society, progress and prosperity in modern history. It is this driving engine that is now about to fail completely.

Capitalism, as in free trade and voluntary interaction, is not going to fail. Much of the establishment of corporatist inefficiency will be in turmoil and the collateral damage for everyone may be severe, but eventually the natural order will recover better and stronger than before.

Yes, without the state, inefficiency will be eliminated. That means, that nearly nothing will be produced, as it was the case within stateless communities in the whole history of mankind. But that wasn't Capitalism. The austrian anarchocapitalists believe, that we will produce even more without the state. That's the greatest economic joke I ever heard.

[neutrinox]

I don't believe the end is near.

There will soon be new cheap energy sources which will help a lot.

Computers will be smarter and we will come much more efficient.

Internet is empowering individuals more than even in the history of mankind.

I believe the future is going to be great. Of course there will also be problems to solve. Bitcoin might help with that.