Incorrect Bitcore(BTX) Circulating Supply on CMC

[gwestcot]

Option two of course, why would it be the first option? there is no sense with that at all.
Has anyone noticed that bitcore was just another pump & dump situation? just look at the price, it was less than 25$ by the beggining of the last week, and then suddenly pumped to more than $45 each one of them.
Now it is at $29 each and a lot of people invested money in there because they wanted to earn some free money from that.
Lets see how it goes, but it is a good project, only that it seems very shady to me, and that is why i will never put my funds into that coin.

Well to be fair option one is simply the way that CMC calculates every single other coin. Do you think all of Bitcoin Cash has been claimed? Do you think all of Bitcoin is truly "in circulation"? We are fine with being calculated by option 2 as long as everyone else is also calculated by option 2. We really just want fair treatment.

[QB Horse]

Even if over time more and more people will claim their BTX, one could argue that the vast majority of BTC holders will never claim their free BTX.

we could say the same thing for BCH ... and yet CMC count all frozen / forgotten coins

I know that's why option #1 is the logical choice to be fair with all other coins, but BTX didn't get any of the exposure BCH got since the August 1st fork. We could argue that in the eyes of CMC most BTC holders knew they got a free Bitcoin Cash on August 1st. Now, how many BTC holders know they got a 0.5BTX for free?

Now, the fact that BCH is well known and Bitcore not, has nothing to do with project or the dev team, it's just the nature of the beast!

Gregory Westcott, how many free BTX were claimed from the Nov 2nd snapshot?    

Gregory, please also clarify my assumption ("Am I right if I assume that the only virtually forked BTX coins that are in circulation are the one that were claimed by BTC address holders")

If this quantity is small, it doesn't mean it will not grow over time, but still, it's a good indication of how many ppl knew about the Nov 2 snapshot.

[gwestcot]

Greetings Community,

As many of you know, the Bitcore team have been trying to work through the issues with CMC about our circulating supply being incorrectly displayed. I believe CMC views our "virtually forked" coins to Bitcoin holders to not be in circulation so in response our circulating supply has been arbitrarily frozen at 1,195,602 as of November 6th. Since November 6th, we have tried to establish direct contact and consequently we have been waiting for our circulating supply to be corrected. We are now creating this poll to enlist the help of the community in determining a good solution to the problem. Below is a brief description regarding each option and also the spreadsheet that documents everything from the airdrops, first claiming period, virtual fork, development fund addresses, and even the supply from mining. We stopped the calculations at block 84700 so anything that has occurred after that is not accounted for in the spreadsheet. We hope that you find this poll satisfactory and if you have any questions then please be sure to ask.

Sincerely,

Your Bitcore Team

Option 1: Circulating Supply includes the "virtually forked" coins

This option would essentially mean that all coins not currently controlled by the development team are considered in circulation. The numbers are documented below in the spreadsheet and this would mean the circulating supply would be 9,945,943.897515 as of block 84700. We think that this treatment is very fair since the coins are not in our possession and it is exactly how Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash, and even additional forks have been calculated by CMC.

Option 2: Circulating Supply does not include the "virtually forked" coins but still all of other coins

This option would not consider the "virtually forked" coins to be in circulation but all other coins would still be counted in the circulating supply. The circulating supply for this option would be 1,625,941.46974566. All additional airdrops and coins mined beyond block 84700 would of course have to be added to the running total.

Option 3: Circulating Supply should be permanently frozen at 1,195,602

This option would mean that our circulating supply, despite any proven numbers, would be permanently frozen at 1,195,602.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gzHqrDDCHyfBtA4H4wl15VYHQzwwfULcJq1r4JcVnOA/edit?usp=sharing

To be fair with all other coins, Option #1 is the logical choice.

Having said that, I also understand why CMC is questioning the virtually forked coins. From all the 8M coins, how many were redeemed? I mean probably 99.9% of all BTC address holders have absolutely no idea they can claim 0.5BTX per 1BTC they own. Even if over time more and more people will claim their BTX, one could argue that the vast majority of BTC holders will never claim their free BTX.

Am I right if I assume that the only virtually forked BTX coins that are in circulation are the one that were claimed by BTC address holders. If yes, then the true circulation from that portion of the circulation is not 8M, but just a few thousands?

So I think you should have an option #4 that would be Option #2 + the virtually forked coins that have been claimed by BTC address holders.

Why, because these virtually forked coins if they never get claimed, they will never really be in circulation.

My 2 sense!


BTW, I'm one of the early adopters of this project. I first invested last summer.

There is no real way to determine who has claimed and who hasn't claimed so option 4 doesn't really exist. How is this really any different than still counting Satoshi's coins or the millions of lost Bitcoin as being "in circulation"? A vast majority of coins will indeed get claimed as the project progresses and again we are just asking to be treated the same as every other project.

[Vigme86]

Sorry, but can one of you both tell me the difference to BCH and BTG and every other fork of BTC? And therefore why BTX should treated in any way other than these coins?

I think it's a different situation. BTX is not a fork in the blockchain of BTC like BCH and BTG and has not the same exposure.

[drm]

How is this really any different than still counting Satoshi's coins or the millions of lost Bitcoin as being "in circulation"?

This is exactly why it's so ridiculous, why is this even a discussion.

[minestro]

Sorry, but can one of you both tell me the difference to BCH and BTG and every other fork of BTC? And therefore why BTX should treated in any way other than these coins?

I think it's a different situation. BTX is not a fork in the blockchain of BTC like BCH and BTG and has not the same exposure.

How can the exposure make any difference regarding a pure technical & theoretical issue like counting the coins in circulation? Don't you think arguing in such a manor is more politics than fact based decisions?
I really don't think a site, which pure purpose is IMHO to list and track the specifics of different coins, should start being judge of what counts as something or not. Because if they start to act like this, they begin being a judge or referee and make decision for the whole market. That's too much power for any party and is strictly against the decentralized concept being free of any regulating institutions of cryptocurrencies at all.

[QB Horse]

Greetings Community,

As many of you know, the Bitcore team have been trying to work through the issues with CMC about our circulating supply being incorrectly displayed. I believe CMC views our "virtually forked" coins to Bitcoin holders to not be in circulation so in response our circulating supply has been arbitrarily frozen at 1,195,602 as of November 6th. Since November 6th, we have tried to establish direct contact and consequently we have been waiting for our circulating supply to be corrected. We are now creating this poll to enlist the help of the community in determining a good solution to the problem. Below is a brief description regarding each option and also the spreadsheet that documents everything from the airdrops, first claiming period, virtual fork, development fund addresses, and even the supply from mining. We stopped the calculations at block 84700 so anything that has occurred after that is not accounted for in the spreadsheet. We hope that you find this poll satisfactory and if you have any questions then please be sure to ask.

Sincerely,

Your Bitcore Team

Option 1: Circulating Supply includes the "virtually forked" coins

This option would essentially mean that all coins not currently controlled by the development team are considered in circulation. The numbers are documented below in the spreadsheet and this would mean the circulating supply would be 9,945,943.897515 as of block 84700. We think that this treatment is very fair since the coins are not in our possession and it is exactly how Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash, and even additional forks have been calculated by CMC.

Option 2: Circulating Supply does not include the "virtually forked" coins but still all of other coins

This option would not consider the "virtually forked" coins to be in circulation but all other coins would still be counted in the circulating supply. The circulating supply for this option would be 1,625,941.46974566. All additional airdrops and coins mined beyond block 84700 would of course have to be added to the running total.

Option 3: Circulating Supply should be permanently frozen at 1,195,602

This option would mean that our circulating supply, despite any proven numbers, would be permanently frozen at 1,195,602.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gzHqrDDCHyfBtA4H4wl15VYHQzwwfULcJq1r4JcVnOA/edit?usp=sharing

To be fair with all other coins, Option #1 is the logical choice.

Having said that, I also understand why CMC is questioning the virtually forked coins. From all the 8M coins, how many were redeemed? I mean probably 99.9% of all BTC address holders have absolutely no idea they can claim 0.5BTX per 1BTC they own. Even if over time more and more people will claim their BTX, one could argue that the vast majority of BTC holders will never claim their free BTX.

Am I right if I assume that the only virtually forked BTX coins that are in circulation are the one that were claimed by BTC address holders. If yes, then the true circulation from that portion of the circulation is not 8M, but just a few thousands?

So I think you should have an option #4 that would be Option #2 + the virtually forked coins that have been claimed by BTC address holders.

Why, because these virtually forked coins if they never get claimed, they will never really be in circulation.

My 2 sense!


BTW, I'm one of the early adopters of this project. I first invested last summer.

There is no real way to determine who has claimed and who hasn't claimed so option 4 doesn't really exist. How is this really any different than still counting Satoshi's coins or the millions of lost Bitcoin as being "in circulation"? A vast majority of coins will indeed get claimed as the project progresses and again we are just asking to be treated the same as every other project.

But BTX is not a fork.
Bitcoin Cash is a fork, therefore CMC has some kind of insurance in the circulation. And I'm certain that because of the vast exposure BCH got, they knew people would be more inclined to claim their free BCH.

Totally agree with you that over time, ppl will claim their free 0.5BTX, but nobody can predict the future. 6 months in crypto is like 6 years in real life, and I'm not convinced many people will try to claim their BTX past Q1-2018.

As a large BTX holder, I would love the see BTX climb in the top 30/50 quickly, but if they don't reflect the accurate circulation, so be it. This doesn't remove anything in the trust in the dev team and the bright future I see for Bitcore. A lower reflected circulation means scarcity for ppl, and this will put pressure on the price for the upside.

If there was a way to know the claimed BTX for the virtually forked coins portion of the circulation, that would be ideal. Since option #4 is not possible, if we can't get CMC to reflect the true circulation, in that case option #2 is a good compromise.

[antonio8]

How is this really any different than still counting Satoshi's coins or the millions of lost Bitcoin as being "in circulation"?

This is exactly why it's so ridiculous, why is this even a discussion.

These two already said what I was going to say.

No one knows the true number of BTC in circulation. There are many lost due to people wiping hard drives forgetting they had them, laptops lost, hard drives thrown away, etc.

Sure there may have been 16 million mined but does not mean they are in circulation.

[QB Horse]

Sorry, but can one of you both tell me the difference to BCH and BTG and every other fork of BTC? And therefore why BTX should treated in any way other than these coins?

I think it's a different situation. BTX is not a fork in the blockchain of BTC like BCH and BTG and has not the same exposure.

How can the exposure make any difference regarding a pure technical & theoretical issue like counting the coins in circulation? Don't you think arguing in such a manor is more politics than fact based decisions?
I really don't think a site, which pure purpose is IMHO to list and track the specifics of different coins, should start being judge of what count as anything or not. Because if they start to act like this, they begin being a judge or referee and make decision for the whole market. That's too much power for any party and is strictly against the decentralized concept free of any regulating institutions of cryptocurrencies at all.

I think we're all saying the same thing here. CMC should be fair to all coins and option #1 should prevail. But if CMC don't want to listen and reflect the true circulation, then option #2 is a good compromise.

With regards to exposure, since 99% of BTC address holders have no idea they got a free 0.5BTX, they will likely never claim it. For sure, over time some will claim it, but past 3-6 months thinking that most will have claimed their free BTX is wishful thinking. Therefore these non-claimed BTX will not be in circulation.
Now since BCH was a fork and because of the massive exposure since August 1st, the vast majority know they got a free BCH.

Having said that, you're making a really good point that CMC has no authority and should not be the "gate keeper", and if it's what they start doing, then that's a major issue.

[minestro]

But BTX is not a fork.
Bitcoin Cash is a fork, therefore CMC has some kind of insurance in the circulation. And I'm certain that because of the vast exposure BCH got, they knew people would be more inclined to claim their free BCH.

Totally agree with you that over time, ppl will claim their free 0.5BTX, but nobody can predict the future. 6 months in crypto is like 6 years in real life, and I'm not convinced many people will try to claim their BTX past Q1-2018.

As a large BTX holder, I would love the see BTX climb in the top 30/50 quickly, but if they don't reflect the accurate circulation, so be it. This doesn't remove anything in the trust in the dev team and the bright future I see for Bitcore. A lower reflected circulation means scarcity for ppl, and this will put pressure on the price for the upside.

If there was a way to know the claimed BTX for the virtually forked coins portion of the circulation, that would be ideal. Since option #4 is not possible, if we can get CMC to reflect the true circulation, in that case option #2 is a good compromise.

There are two points bothering me. Scarcity, yes somehow. But it's countered by the less exposure the coin gets while being kept low because of the low capitalization.
And don't you think that the simple fact, that anyone looking at those numbers is always going to see those ghost coins and the large gap between total and circulating supply. And therefore any solution ignoring the forked coins is spreading only fud? IMHO CMC could make such rules but they would have to make them upfront and not afterwards.

Thanks for the expression "gate keeper". I really racked my brain around that for minutes and didn't finde the expression I was searching for

[HandyHan]

I'm good with either Option 1 or 2

[QB Horse]

But BTX is not a fork.
Bitcoin Cash is a fork, therefore CMC has some kind of insurance in the circulation. And I'm certain that because of the vast exposure BCH got, they knew people would be more inclined to claim their free BCH.

Totally agree with you that over time, ppl will claim their free 0.5BTX, but nobody can predict the future. 6 months in crypto is like 6 years in real life, and I'm not convinced many people will try to claim their BTX past Q1-2018.

As a large BTX holder, I would love the see BTX climb in the top 30/50 quickly, but if they don't reflect the accurate circulation, so be it. This doesn't remove anything in the trust in the dev team and the bright future I see for Bitcore. A lower reflected circulation means scarcity for ppl, and this will put pressure on the price for the upside.

If there was a way to know the claimed BTX for the virtually forked coins portion of the circulation, that would be ideal. Since option #4 is not possible, if we can get CMC to reflect the true circulation, in that case option #2 is a good compromise.

Two points are bothering me. Scarcity, yes somehow. But it's countered by the less exposure the coin gets while being kept low because of the low capitalization.
And don't you think that the simple fact, that anyone looking at those numbers is always going to see those ghost coins and the large gap between total and circulating supply, and therefore is spreading only fud? IMHO CMC could make such rules but they would have to make them upfront and not afterwards.

With regards to scarcity, what's important is the $ market cap. I believe the dev team sees BTX in the top 10 (Steve said so in telegram today). If so, the market cap would at approx $1.8B. A reflected circulation of 16M means a $112 price. A circulation that excludes the virtually forked coins means a $225 price. Fewer coins in circulation mean scarcity, which means higher price.

[QB Horse]

I think option 2 is a good compromise. It's highly unlikely all the BTXs during snapshot would be redeemed, and I still don't get why you have done it.
Anyway at least with option 2 would be like if it never happened.

Just wanted to highlight the fact that the dev team has been fully transparent with the early adopters and presented 5 options for the October/November distribution. This Nov 2nd snapshot was agreed within the Bitcore community.

I'm sure you can still find the discussions about the distribution going back in the first 100 pages.

[thefix]

Its tempting to go with the option that will make BTX go up in value most, but I think its most important to go with the option that is representative of other coins listed on coinmarketcap. I think option one is probably the most realistic way to move forward given the distribution model.

[gwestcot]

I think option 2 is a good compromise. It's highly unlikely all the BTXs during snapshot would be redeemed, and I still don't get why you have done it.
Anyway at least with option 2 would be like if it never happened.

Just wanted to highlight the fact that the dev team has been fully transparent with the early adopters and presented 5 options for the October/November distribution. This Nov 2nd snapshot was agreed within the Bitcore community.

I'm sure you can still find the discussions about the distribution going back in the first 100 pages.

I was the one that facilitated those discussion when I wasn't even on the dev team yet.  

[Hadrop.Boyle]

They should rename this into what it really is:

possible circulation

and use for all coins the same calculation.  (so option one)
Thats the only way to compare, what I hope Coinmarketcap wants to do.

[keyzersoze]

Has to be option one. Or every other coin on cmc is up for debate.
End of discussion.

[minestro]

But BTX is not a fork.
Bitcoin Cash is a fork, therefore CMC has some kind of insurance in the circulation. And I'm certain that because of the vast exposure BCH got, they knew people would be more inclined to claim their free BCH.

Totally agree with you that over time, ppl will claim their free 0.5BTX, but nobody can predict the future. 6 months in crypto is like 6 years in real life, and I'm not convinced many people will try to claim their BTX past Q1-2018.

As a large BTX holder, I would love the see BTX climb in the top 30/50 quickly, but if they don't reflect the accurate circulation, so be it. This doesn't remove anything in the trust in the dev team and the bright future I see for Bitcore. A lower reflected circulation means scarcity for ppl, and this will put pressure on the price for the upside.

If there was a way to know the claimed BTX for the virtually forked coins portion of the circulation, that would be ideal. Since option #4 is not possible, if we can get CMC to reflect the true circulation, in that case option #2 is a good compromise.

Two points are bothering me. Scarcity, yes somehow. But it's countered by the less exposure the coin gets while being kept low because of the low capitalization.
And don't you think that the simple fact, that anyone looking at those numbers is always going to see those ghost coins and the large gap between total and circulating supply, and therefore is spreading only fud? IMHO CMC could make such rules but they would have to make them upfront and not afterwards.

With regards to scarcity, what's important is the $ market cap. I believe the dev team sees BTX in the top 10 (Steve said so in telegram today). If so, the market cap would at approx $1.8B. A reflected circulation of 16M means a $112 price. A circulation that excludes the virtually forked coins means a $225 price. Fewer coins in circulation mean scarcity, which means higher price.

But scarcity is only scarcity if the demand is there I get where you're going, but there are 2 factors in determining the price and that's not only supply but also demand. And the demand is rising with the exposure, which actually hugely determined by media coverage which is very influenced by the standing of a currency on coinmarketcap.
There are many facets to this discussion. Like if you choose option 2 what happens if the BTC whales start clamining their coins and the number of claimed coins is let's say about 1 Mio and if that is not being reflected by the circulating supply? Not listing 1/9 of the real circulating would also be a large failure.....
I slightly disagree on the difference of the BCH and BTX claiming situation. At least up to the point, that BTX i my eyes already reflected the smaller and slower claiming ratio by only making it half of the current supply.
But I think mostly we're sharing the same opinion. After all it looks like it would have been better if the devs would have talked to CMC before the airdrop. But again that would put CMC in a position no one wants them to be, perhaps no one besides themselves.

[keyzersoze]

I claimed both snapshots, so I know my coins are in circulation.
And since we can never be a 100% sure, either now or in the future, how many coins has, or will be individually claimed. It has to be option one. End of story. The same as all other coins are calculated.

This shouldn't even be an issue. If enough people complain, they'll have to fix it.
The squeakiest wheel, gets the most grease.

[QB Horse]

But BTX is not a fork.
Bitcoin Cash is a fork, therefore CMC has some kind of insurance in the circulation. And I'm certain that because of the vast exposure BCH got, they knew people would be more inclined to claim their free BCH.

Totally agree with you that over time, ppl will claim their free 0.5BTX, but nobody can predict the future. 6 months in crypto is like 6 years in real life, and I'm not convinced many people will try to claim their BTX past Q1-2018.

As a large BTX holder, I would love the see BTX climb in the top 30/50 quickly, but if they don't reflect the accurate circulation, so be it. This doesn't remove anything in the trust in the dev team and the bright future I see for Bitcore. A lower reflected circulation means scarcity for ppl, and this will put pressure on the price for the upside.

If there was a way to know the claimed BTX for the virtually forked coins portion of the circulation, that would be ideal. Since option #4 is not possible, if we can get CMC to reflect the true circulation, in that case option #2 is a good compromise.

Two points are bothering me. Scarcity, yes somehow. But it's countered by the less exposure the coin gets while being kept low because of the low capitalization.
And don't you think that the simple fact, that anyone looking at those numbers is always going to see those ghost coins and the large gap between total and circulating supply, and therefore is spreading only fud? IMHO CMC could make such rules but they would have to make them upfront and not afterwards.

With regards to scarcity, what's important is the $ market cap. I believe the dev team sees BTX in the top 10 (Steve said so in telegram today). If so, the market cap would at approx $1.8B. A reflected circulation of 16M means a $112 price. A circulation that excludes the virtually forked coins means a $225 price. Fewer coins in circulation mean scarcity, which means higher price.

But scarcity is only scarcity if the demand is there I get where you're going, but there are 2 factors in determining the price and that's not only supply but also demand. And the demand is rising with the exposure, which actually hugely determined by media coverage which is very influenced by the standing of a currency on coinmarketcap.
There are many facets to this discussion. Like if you choose option 2 what happens if the BTC whales start clamining their coins and the number of claimed coins is let's say about 1 Mio and if that is not being reflected by the circulating supply? Not listing 1/9 of the real circulating would also be a large failure.....
I slightly disagree on the difference of the BCH and BTX claiming situation. At least up to the point, that BTX i my eyes already reflected the smaller and slower claiming ratio by only making it half of the current supply.
But I think mostly we're sharing the same opinion. After all it looks like it would have been better if the devs would have talked to CMC before the airdrop. But again that would put CMC in a position no one wants them to be, perhaps no one besides themselves.

Really good thinking man... love it!

Yep, I think we need to push for option #1 till they obey.
Too bad CMC has become so big. Maybe we (dev team) need to start flashing the true circulation in font 144 in every communication, on the website and in every platform they can so that it become obvious to everyone that CMC is falsy representing BTX.