What do you believe is moral?

[Mota]

I took road tax as it is one of the oldest form of taxes of mankind. You could not go anywhere without them. Have you ever tried to walk 20km without a road of any kind? bear in mind that you couldn't even walk through a forest a few hundred years ago because of undergrowth and the only way to get through was a lumber road...

I think you may be referring to a road toll, not a road tax. As in, only those who used the road paid, not everyone in the country. Besides, we now have many more methods of transportation than just roads.
"Roads?! Where we're going, we won't need roads." -- Doc Brown

I meant toll, yes. But you can as easily take road tax, you pay it if you want to use your vehicle on a public road. And which methods would that be that require(d) no form of state built infrastructure? (except maybe ships)

[Rassah]

And which methods would that be that require(d) no form of state built infrastructure? (except maybe ships)

trains, subways, monorails, airplanes, helicopters, off-road transport, or just tellepresence (Skype and such)

If roads became more expensive to use, all that research we've seen in quadcopters and electric planes would suddenly get a hell of a lot more lucrative, and the final products a hell of a lot cheaper.

[Mota]

And which methods would that be that require(d) no form of state built infrastructure? (except maybe ships)

trains, subways, monorails, airplanes, helicopters, off-road transport, or just tellepresence (Skype and such)

If roads became more expensive to use, all that research we've seen in quadcopters and electric planes would suddenly get a hell of a lot more lucrative, and the final products a hell of a lot cheaper.

are you serious? I don't know about your country, but in Europe railroads were built by the state, as were airports and phone masts/ fibre optic cables for your internet. Also, airtraffic control was introduced by the state.

[crumbs]

And which methods would that be that require(d) no form of state built infrastructure? (except maybe ships)

trains, subways, monorails, airplanes, helicopters, off-road transport, or just tellepresence (Skype and such)

If roads became more expensive to use, all that research we've seen in quadcopters and electric planes would suddenly get a hell of a lot more lucrative, and the final products a hell of a lot cheaper.

are you serious? I don't know about your country, but in Europe railroads were built by the state, as were airports and phone masts/ fibre optic cables for your internet. Also, airtraffic control was introduced by the state.

And even in US i have a hard time picturing mom taking a Huey or a 747 to pick up the groceries.  It's hard to picture her with anything more than a loaf of bread on even a dirt bike.

[Rassah]

And which methods would that be that require(d) no form of state built infrastructure? (except maybe ships)

trains, subways, monorails, airplanes, helicopters, off-road transport, or just tellepresence (Skype and such)

If roads became more expensive to use, all that research we've seen in quadcopters and electric planes would suddenly get a hell of a lot more lucrative, and the final products a hell of a lot cheaper.

are you serious? I don't know about your country, but in Europe railroads were built by the state, as were airports and phone masts/ fibre optic cables for your internet. Also, airtraffic control was introduced by the state.

Well, in US the railroads are privately owned, many (if not most) of our airports are privately owned (they have landing fees and such), as are our phone masts/electric poles, and internet cables. And although air traffic control is administered by federal government, a lot of it is leased out to private companies, and for small private traffic is slowly being replaced by GPS and avoidance collision systems in the planes themselves.
Just because something always existed one way, doesn't mean it's the only way it has to exist. Like the way-overused quote that often comes up in this forums, "If there are no slaves, who will pick the cotton?"

[Elwar]

The easiest way that we could come up with a way of having mobile phones is if the state took over and controlled all of the radio waves and gave equal access to everyone and just used money gained from taxes.

Same with roads. Just let the government take them over and pay for them with money from taxes.


Or...privatize them.


I am saddened that so many people would rather argue for taxes than spend 5 minutes thinking of an alternative to what we currently have. If everyone who said "what about the roads?" took 5 minutes to think of an alternative, we'd have some pretty kick ass solutions to take over the old outdated road system we have today.

Just 1 minute...think of one possibility...let your brain work this one time...

[kokjo]

here is my logic:

Does it work?
No: then its broken, fix it!
Yes: its not broken, DO NOT FIX IT! it might break!

[Mota]

And I am saddened that you can't think of anything that could go wrong with privatization....
I can honestly tell you here that every privatization the German state has made was the worst possible solution EVER to the problem.

[crumbs]

And which methods would that be that require(d) no form of state built infrastructure? (except maybe ships)

trains, subways, monorails, airplanes, helicopters, off-road transport, or just tellepresence (Skype and such)

If roads became more expensive to use, all that research we've seen in quadcopters and electric planes would suddenly get a hell of a lot more lucrative, and the final products a hell of a lot cheaper.

are you serious? I don't know about your country, but in Europe railroads were built by the state, as were airports and phone masts/ fibre optic cables for your internet. Also, airtraffic control was introduced by the state.

Well, in US the railroads are privately owned,

See Amtrak -- subsidized at state & federal level.

many (if not most) of our airports are privately owned (they have landing fees and such),

Not unless you count airstrips & private airfields where nothing bigger than a Piper Cub can land.  Sorry.

as are our phone masts/electric poles, and internet cables.

Partially true, though tightly regulated.

And although air traffic control is administered by federal government, a lot of it is leased out to private companies, and for small private traffic is slowly being replaced by GPS and avoidance collision systems in the planes themselves.

In other words, gov'ment.

Just because something always existed one way, doesn't mean it's the only way it has to exist. Like the way overused quote that often comes up in this forums, "If there are no slaves, who will pick the cotton?"

A better quote is "The North didn't grow cotton, so it said FU South & freed the slaves."

And even in US i have a hard time picturing mom taking a Huey or a 747 to pick up the groceries.  It's hard to picture her with anything more than a loaf of bread on even a dirt bike.

That you lack imagination to picture anything beyond what you have already experienced with is pretty well established. Or, in your own words, mew mew mew.

Mew mew mew?  What kind of pussy language is that?  If you picture your mom piloting a 747 to do her shopping, you don't need to explain where you get the rest of your brilliant ides.

[4mherewego]

Lots of the posts here reminds me of the arguments I used to put forward 10years ago and how people had to show me how wrong I was for each new different argument I made up. Then I learnt and wont have to make a fool out of myself over and over trying to explain why my intuitive/inherited moral should make sense.

I expected that people here would have heard these arguments many times before on other forums before they ended up here, guess I was wrong...

[Elwar]

here is my logic:

Does it work?
No: then its broken, fix it!
Yes: its not broken, DO NOT FIX IT! it might break!

So the old dial up telephone system was just fine because it worked?

[Elwar]

And I am saddened that you can't think of anything that could go wrong with privatization....
I can honestly tell you here that every privatization the German state has made was the worst possible solution EVER to the problem.

If it is anything like the US, what they call privatization is usually just a government monopoly, and changing things around to pay a private firm to do government work.

It gives privatization a bad name because it never allows competition or innovation.

[Rassah]

And I am saddened that you can't think of anything that could go wrong with privatization....
I can honestly tell you here that every privatization the German state has made was the worst possible solution EVER to the problem.

How did privatization of things in East Germany and Poland work out?

[crumbs]

See Amtrak -- subsidized at state & federal level.

And overbudget, and more expensive than flying, and shit.

many (if not most) of our airports are privately owned (they have landing fees and such),

Not unless you count airstrips & private airfields where nothing bigger than a Piper Cub can land.  Sorry.

I am counting them, and there are tens of thousands of those, compared to the few big public airports. I would think a Cessna 208 Caravan is a tad bigger than a Piper Cub, and almost all of them can handle at least those. There is also at least one private commercial airport that can handle bigger jets, and one private industrial that can handle cargo jets. If there's a reason airports must be publicly owned, I'd like to hear them.

as are our phone masts/electric poles, and internet cables.

Partially true, though tightly regulated.

I.e. true, despite government.

And although air traffic control is administered by federal government, a lot of it is leased out to private companies, and for small private traffic is slowly being replaced by GPS and avoidance collision systems in the planes themselves.

In other words, gov'ment.

Again, I'd like to hear why it has to be. Air traffic does just fine in private airport areas with private towers.
(btw, are you a pilot?)

That you lack imagination to picture anything beyond what you have already experienced with is pretty well established. Or, in your own words, mew mew mew.

Mew mew mew?  What kind of pussy language is that?  If you picture your mom piloting a 747 to do her shopping, you don't need to explain where you get the rest of your brilliant ides.

I'm sorry, I forgot you're a pony fan. Neigh neigh then? All you can do is try to picture your mom piloting a 747 to do her shopping, and failing at it. I'm picturing her groceries being delivered by drones. Or her riding on a machine that can easily go over dirt roads and even off-road, such as a hovercraft or a legged machine. Or even the grocery store being a giant bus/truck that travels around town and makes a stop by your mom's place on a certain day of the week. Or there being a series of small tracks going all around town like electrical wires, with little carts flying quickly back and force over them, relaying packages and delivering them to your mom's and everyone else's post box. Imagine what would happen if, instead of government taking hundreds of billions from people to maintain roads, hundreds of billions was used by companies to throw at drone research, lighter-than-air vehicles, or at further developing something like Big Dog into something that can give a fast, smooth ride. You wouldn't need roads.
Then imagine how much nicer and greener everything would be if it wasn't all covered in black pavement.

TL;DR:  "Mah examples are flops and fails & Libercat tales, but just look-e at my imaginingz:  drones delivering groceries!  Besides, U R a Brony, neyah!"
All the dronez are currently busy doing spyingz & delivering sub-kiloton payloads of freedomz & democracies to eager moms in "developing countries." 
Friendship is magic!

[crumbs]

TL;DR:  "Mah examples are flops and fails & Libercat tales, but just look-e at my imaginingz:  drones delivering groceries!  Besides, U R a Brony, neyah!"
All the dronez are currently busy doing spyingz & delivering sub-kiloton payloads of freedomz & democracies to eager moms in "developing countries."  
Friendship is magic!

I was gonna say, drone delivering groceries = totally awesome idea!

Reminds me of that Worms game where fighter jets occasionally deliver mystery packages that float down by parachute. I bet there's a MLP expansion pack out there somewhere too

There is!  The bestestest pack evah!

Groceries!!1!

Operation Bag 'em & Tag 'em.  Friendship is Magik™

[Mota]

TL;DR:  "Mah examples are flops and fails & Libercat tales, but just look-e at my imaginingz:  drones delivering groceries! Besides, U R a Brony, neyah!"
All the dronez are currently busy doing spyingz & delivering sub-kiloton payloads of freedomz & democracies to eager moms in "developing countries."  
Friendship is magic!

(Quoted for evidence of douchebaggery)

I guess you don't have any objections to what I said, and don't have anything to reply with. Good.

Operation Bag 'em & Tag 'em.  Friendship is Magik™

It's fuckin' hilarious that I ended up causing you to waste so much time out of your life on that bullshit  
Especially when I was thinking about quadcopters, and something like this http://singularityhub.com/2013/05/21/matternet-building-quadcopter-drone-network-to-transport-supplies-in-developing-world/

But hey, another example of you not being able to imagine anything beyond what you already know or see on TV, so yay for you.


By the way, why are you being so hostile to everyone? What's the point?

Seriously dude, just stop. Drone technology is military, as in government paid. And well, since you spoke of quadrocopters, they were, for the greatest part, developed by the German Frauenhofer Institut (you know, the mp3 guys...) and other university-paid studys/researches. So please, go on with your life and just let it be...

[thehun]

Most stupid thread title ever.
the survey is not about the definition of morale, it's about the definition of stealing.
if it was about the definition of morale it would have to be the other way around.

1.If you build a road alone, would it be okay to charge people to use it?
2. If you and a group of people build a road, would it be okay to charge others to use them?
3. If you are elected to build a road and secure it with security forces, would it be okay to charge the people who elected you to do so with it's maintenance cost?
4. If you are the representative of a group of elected people in charge of: roadbuiding, infrastructure building, securing your town and the roads, and protecting you from non elected people charging you for services rendered by yourself, would it be okay to charge the people who voted for them for maintenance cost and a fee for future projects?

repeat as you like.
And even that is not your personal definition of morale; morale is what you personally feel is right, and won't burden your conscience.

Cool story bro.

And those who do not want to use the road?

and what about that sewer?

Septic tank.

I took road tax as it is one of the oldest form of taxes of mankind. You could not go anywhere without them. Have you ever tried to walk 20km without a road of any kind? bear in mind that you couldn't even walk through a forest a few hundred years ago because of undergrowth and the only way to get through was a lumber road...
but hey, maybe you are from america, and don't know the history of the old world...

There could be a per-usage toll for people who didn't pay for their construction with their taxes. What really pisses me off is that in many countries in Europe there are toll roads which were built and operated by subsidized companies (generally belonging to someone with good connections in the govt), so we are effectively paying twice. And if that wasn't enough, some countries like Spain are already bailing out these same companies after people just don't have any money more to be ripped off and prefer to drive a bit longer to get to their destination.

[Rassah]

Seriously dude, just stop. Drone technology is military, as in government paid. And well, since you spoke of quadrocopters, they were, for the greatest part, developed by the German Frauenhofer Institut (you know, the mp3 guys...) and other university-paid studys/researches. So please, go on with your life and just let it be...

I thought drone technology was government taking toy remote control model planes that existed for, practically, ever, and strapping missiles on them? Did government create toy RC planes? Or radio to control those planes? Or just the missiles to strap onto those planes? I really don't know, but maybe you do?

[cryptoanarchist]

The code of competency is the only moral philosophy on a gold standard.

[Mota]

Seriously dude, just stop. Drone technology is military, as in government paid. And well, since you spoke of quadrocopters, they were, for the greatest part, developed by the German Frauenhofer Institut (you know, the mp3 guys...) and other university-paid studys/researches. So please, go on with your life and just let it be...

I thought drone technology was government taking toy remote control model planes that existed for, practically, ever, and strapping missiles on them? Did government create toy RC planes? Or radio to control those planes? Or just the missiles to strap onto those planes? I really don't know, but maybe you do?

:D:D:D
remote control itself was not invented by the military... but radio control was one of the major contributions of military research to the world. as well as the internet, which was a practical byproduct of military advancements..
And drones/quadrocopters are much much more complex than you think...