What do you believe is moral?

[Elwar]

Taxation is theft

Government money is owned by government. Their money, their rules.

If you choose to do stuff with it, for example: earn the right to become the legal "bearer" of some of it, then it's still government money and you still have to play by their rules.

You know those weird laws that prohibit people from burning or deliberately damaging legal tender? (I know at least a few countries have such laws, probably most.) That's because even if you're the rightful bearer, the money still isn't yours!

Saying things like "this is my money" (and the gubment is trying to steal it) is usually intellectual laziness, unless you're claiming that your government is trying to tax the bitcoins you control (or other tokens of some other system of money that they don't own). Then that would be theft.

The government does tax the bitcoins I control. It has been discussed on this forum several times.

Surely you jest? You're being deliberately thick, right?

Let me guess, you exchanged some bitcoins for the right to bear government money, and the government money got taxed?

I spend my Bitcoin.

Whenever I spend that bitcoin, if the value has gone up since the time I earned that bitcoin I am required by the government to give them a cut or be kidnapped.

[Rassah]

Surely you jest? You're being deliberately thick, right?

Let me guess, you exchanged some bitcoins for the right to bear government money, and the government money got taxed?

Oh! Is THAT why when I worked at a candy import company, whenever we bought and sold imported candy using Euros, without that trade ever involving US dollars, we didn't have to pay taxes on that trade, nor keep track of that candy's dollar-equivalent value?
Oh, no, wait, we did have to do that, and did have to pay taxes on it. Just like we had to pay taxes on direct barter of goods for services. Huh... 

[Rassah]

For every honest Russian just wanting to swap 12 eggs for a loaf of bread at the farmer's market, there would be some industrious millionaire building an empire on that tax loophole, and consuming various resources that other people's taxes paid for... Oh wait, that loophole wouldn't last very long...

Exactly. Because, at least here in the states, the IRS doesn't give a crap what you used to trade, be it barter, virtual currency, or government currency. You get taxed on the equivalent dollar-value of what you bought and sold, and have to keep a detailed accounting record of that transaction. Same thing applies to Europe. Why? Because without that rule, dollars and euros would have long been abandoned in exchange for pogs or some other virtual tokens, just so that all businesses can avoid paying taxes until they have to sell to customers who are forced, for whatever reason, to use government currencies.

[Strange Vlad]

Awesome quiz!

Would you mind if I translated it into Russian and spread among my friends and acquaintances?  Properly credited, of course.

[Elwar]

Awesome quiz!

Would you mind if I translated it into Russian and spread among my friends and acquaintances?  Properly credited, of course.

Go for it. No credit necessary.

[randomcloud]

I don't buy the premise that taxation is theft.

*waits for flames*

[Anon136]

I don't buy the premise that taxation is theft.

*waits for flames*

you can define any words you like any way you like. the fact of the matter is that taxation is a situation where a guy with a gun tells you to give him your property or else he will shoot you. dont even try to tell me this is an analogy either because it isnt. that doesn't necessarily mean its bad either, its is the fact of the matter, the government WILL shoot you for not giving them your money if it comes down to it.

if you chose to define theft as situations where people use violence to force you to give them your property except when the aggressor has a very fine hat or is backed up by some majority of some population or will spend the money towards some end that you personally endorse than you are totally free to do that. i respect your right to define any words you like any way you like and when you use the word theft i will know that it excludes individuals with very fine hats. just understand that when i use the word theft according to my personal definition, it doesnt exclude situations where the aggressor has a very fine hat, or a very fine badge, or the support of some sort of majority of some sort of population.

[hawkeye]

I don't buy the premise that taxation is theft.

*waits for flames*

Is tax voluntary?

[FirstAscent]

I don't buy the premise that taxation is theft.

*waits for flames*

Is tax voluntary?

Just because you insist that the government doesn't provide any services to you, others believe the government should. And so the government does provide services to others. And, those services are then used by you (think roads, fire protection, etc.).

Now, there are two things here:

- You can't tell others that they can't have the services the government provides in exchange for payment of taxes.
- I suspect that you will never stop helping yourself to the services the government provides.

Where does that leave you?

[hawkeye]

I don't buy the premise that taxation is theft.

*waits for flames*

Is tax voluntary?

Just because you insist that the government doesn't provide any services to you, others believe the government should. And so the government does provide services to others. And, those services are then used by you (think roads, fire protection, etc.).

Now, there are two things here:

- You can't tell others that they can't have the services the government provides in exchange for payment of taxes.
- I suspect that you will never stop helping yourself to the services the government provides.

Where does that leave you?

Didn't answer the question.  Here's a hint.  Yes or no are the possible answers.

[FirstAscent]

I don't buy the premise that taxation is theft.

*waits for flames*

Is tax voluntary?

Just because you insist that the government doesn't provide any services to you, others believe the government should. And so the government does provide services to others. And, those services are then used by you (think roads, fire protection, etc.).

Now, there are two things here:

- You can't tell others that they can't have the services the government provides in exchange for payment of taxes.
- I suspect that you will never stop helping yourself to the services the government provides.

Where does that leave you?

Didn't answer the question.  Here's a hint.  Yes or no are the possible answers.

You didn't ask me that question. You asked someone else that question.

However, I directly asked you a question which you are now avoiding.

[Rassah]

Just because you insist that the government doesn't provide any services to you, others believe the government should. And so the government does provide services to others. And, those services are then used by you (think roads, fire protection, etc.).

It would be so trivially easy to solve that issue by just having the government declare your property foreign land, establish your property border as a foreign country border, and block services from entering your property, and you from exciting without a travel visa. Why doesn't the government just do that then?

[FirstAscent]

Just because you insist that the government doesn't provide any services to you, others believe the government should. And so the government does provide services to others. And, those services are then used by you (think roads, fire protection, etc.).

It would be so trivially easy to solve that issue by just having the government declare your property foreign land, establish your property border as a foreign country border, and block services from entering your property, and you from exciting without a travel visa. Why doesn't the government just do that then?

For the same reason that if own an island that is sovereign, it is my choice as to whether I sell parcels to others where their property is then sovereign to them, or instead, I choose to grant them rights instead. Can you tell me that I am required to do the former, as opposed to the latter?

[hawkeye]

You didn't ask me that question. You asked someone else that question.

However, I directly asked you a question which you are now avoiding.

That's right.  I asked someone else that question.  However, you chose to respond to a simple 3 word question with a rant, which I didn't even bother reading most of and a question at the end.

I'm under no obligation to respond to your rants or answer your questions.  Nor do I have any intention in doing so.   Not a game I'm interested in playing.

I was just pointing out that you didn't even answer the simple question.   Which tells me all I need to know.

[FirstAscent]

You didn't ask me that question. You asked someone else that question.

However, I directly asked you a question which you are now avoiding.

That's right.  I asked someone else that question.  However, you chose to respond to a simple 3 word question with a rant, which I didn't even bother reading most of and a question at the end.

Interesting. If you didn't bother reading it, how do you qualify it as a rant? There really was no rant in my statement. And if you didn't bother reading it, then I'm not sure why you're even replying here.

I'm under no obligation to respond to your rants or answer your questions.  Nor do I have any intention in doing so.   Not a game I'm interested in playing.

Frankly, you have answered my question by indicating that you lack any real understanding of the topic. Really, wasn't your question just a meme that originated from someone else? It's hardly your question, and I doubt you have anything original to say about the subject.

I was just pointing out that you didn't even answer the simple question. Which tells me all I need to know.

It doesn't tell you anything. In response to the question that really isn't yours, I'd have to say the answer is, in a sense, 'Yes'. But I in no way expect you to answer my question directly (which isn't a meme), even though I have now answered the question you copy and pasted, because, frankly, you haven't thought it through with any form of individual thought - instead, you're just a meme repeater.

Good day, sir!

[crumbs]

I don't buy the premise that taxation is theft.

*waits for flames*

you can define any words you like any way you like. the fact of the matter is that taxation is a situation where a guy with a gun tells you to give him your property or else he will shoot you. dont even try to tell me this is an analogy either because it isnt. that doesn't necessarily mean its bad either, its is the fact of the matter, the government WILL shoot you for not giving them your money if it comes down to it.

You should come to USA & check us out, Anon136!  The government here is so sweet, it doesn't even shoot you if you don't pay the taxes you owe, just gives you free room & board for a few years.  At the expense of the suckers who do pay.  If things work out, you'll be in a gated community, surrounded by like-minded individuals & protected from the sheeple outside by solid steel bars & chain-link fences (lavishly crowned with coiled razor wire).  And if that's still not enough, our expert staff is fully trained to provide a buffer of safety between you & the brainwashed fools outside.

if you chose to define theft as situations where people use violence to force you to give them your property except when the aggressor has a very fine hat or is backed up by some majority of some population or will spend the money towards some end that you personally endorse than you are totally free to do that. i respect your right to define any words you like any way you like and when you use the word theft i will know that it excludes individuals with very fine hats. just understand that when i use the word theft according to my personal definition, it doesnt exclude situations where the aggressor has a very fine hat, or a very fine badge, or the support of some sort of majority of some sort of population.

So i herd you liek linguistics?
You'll be thrilled to know that theft, as defined by the corrupt stooges in the service of The State, becomes ROBBERY when force, or the threat of force, is used.  Hats, fine or otherwise, are neither here nor there.

[crumbs]

I don't buy the premise that taxation is theft.

*waits for flames*

Is tax voluntary?

Yes!  Just like rent.

[Anon136]

I don't buy the premise that taxation is theft.

*waits for flames*

Is tax voluntary?

Yes!  Just like rent.

cost of living is imposed on us by mother nature. it costs people time and energy to build a house there is no reason those people shouldn't be compensated for all that hard work. admittedly owing property is a threat of violence but its justified violence, if you build a house out of materials that no one else was using than you should get to decide who lives in that house. even though its violent its worth it.

now lets examine taxation. the states claims to the fruit of your labor is an implicit claim of ownership over the territory in its bailiwick or atleast the people who live in its bailiwick. the land owner can claim to own a house because he built it but can the U.S. state make any similar claim to why it "owns" 1/3 of the land mass of the north american continent or all the people who live there? did the U.S. government build your land? did it build your house? did it build you?

[Elwar]

It always comes back to "but look at all of these wonderful things you get from the money we stole".

It still does not change the fact that the money is stolen.

"But we -need- government, so it is ok to steal." Does not change the fact that the government gets their money from theft.

"Don't use the government if you don't want to pay." Me not using any services does not change the stance of government stealing from me.

"You're a hypcrite if you use government services but hate taxes (being robbed)". That would make sense if I was asking for more services yet asking to not pay for them. As it is, most people who are against taxes are also against government spending.

"but...uhh...ya..but...Roads!1!!" should be paid per use (modern technology and all)

[FirstAscent]

It always comes back to "but look at all of these wonderful things you get from the money we stole".

Then stop using the services.

"Don't use the government if you don't want to pay." Me not using any services does not change the stance of government stealing from me.

Which services are you using currently?

"but...uhh...ya..but...Roads!1!!" should be paid per use (modern technology and all)

Just stop using the roads.