What do you believe is moral?

[Rassah]

Does your landlord force you to pay for building maintenance, local school (despite you not having kids), medical insurance, local libraries, roads that aren't on the building's property that you never use, insurance for elderly who don't live in your apartment, and a slew of other services that have absolutely nothing to do with your apartment nor things you actually receive? Or does your landlord force you to pay for only the specific services that have to do with the apartment you live in, all of which affect you directly?

If building maintenance has to do with the property you reside on, services you receive, and is something you are buying directly, it's not government. If building maintenance includes things that have nothing to do with what you want, need, or actually receive directly, it's government.

The Home Owner's Association does indeed charge for things that many people don't use, like swimming pools, etc.

Is that a swimming pool on the building's property, that you knew was there when you were buying that apartment, and kept it in mind when considering whether to buy the property? Or is this a pool that is somewhere across town, where you're not exactly even sure, which you may or may not ever use or see, but is there for some other people to use?

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To me forced funding is one of the defining characteristics of government. The moment it becomes voluntary it becomes a mutual aid society or an insurance company or a security firm or something, just not a government.

You own an apartment (again).  You complain about the mandatory building maintenance.  You call it "government," 'coz it's not voluntary.  Is it government?

Does your landlord force you to pay for building maintenance, local school (despite you not having kids), medical insurance, local libraries, roads that aren't on the building's property that you never use, insurance for elderly who don't live in your apartment, and a slew of other services that have absolutely nothing to do with your apartment nor things you actually receive? Or does your landlord force you to pay for only the specific services that have to do with the apartment you live in, all of which affect you directly?

If building maintenance has to do with the property you reside on, services you receive, and is something you are buying directly, it's not government. If building maintenance includes things that have nothing to do with what you want, need, or actually receive directly, it's government.

No, kitty, but what's that got to do with anything?  
You came to US, and now you're bitching about the taxes?  Did you think it was just like Libberland here?  Were you surprised when you learned the truth?

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Does your landlord force you to pay for building maintenance, local school (despite you not having kids), medical insurance, local libraries, roads that aren't on the building's property that you never use, insurance for elderly who don't live in your apartment, and a slew of other services that have absolutely nothing to do with your apartment nor things you actually receive? Or does your landlord force you to pay for only the specific services that have to do with the apartment you live in, all of which affect you directly?

If building maintenance has to do with the property you reside on, services you receive, and is something you are buying directly, it's not government. If building maintenance includes things that have nothing to do with what you want, need, or actually receive directly, it's government.

The Home Owner's Association does indeed charge for things that many people don't use, like swimming pools, etc.

Is that a swimming pool on the building's property, that you knew was there when you were buying that apartment...

There were no taxes when you came to the States?

[FirstAscent]

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To me forced funding is one of the defining characteristics of government. The moment it becomes voluntary it becomes a mutual aid society or an insurance company or a security firm or something, just not a government.

You own an apartment (again).  You complain about the mandatory building maintenance.  You call it "government," 'coz it's not voluntary.  Is it government?

Does your landlord force you to pay for building maintenance, local school (despite you not having kids), medical insurance, local libraries, roads that aren't on the building's property that you never use, insurance for elderly who don't live in your apartment, and a slew of other services that have absolutely nothing to do with your apartment nor things you actually receive? Or does your landlord force you to pay for only the specific services that have to do with the apartment you live in, all of which affect you directly?

If building maintenance has to do with the property you reside on, services you receive, and is something you are buying directly, it's not government. If building maintenance includes things that have nothing to do with what you want, need, or actually receive directly, it's government.


Same question to you. You are thirsty and need to buy a bottle of water. You complain about the store clerk forcing you to pay for that bottle of water, which you have to buy, because there isn't any other water around (let's say you're stranded somewhere). Is it government?

Actually, let me take another stab at your question.

The landlord sure as fuck does charge me for stuff I don't need or want, and I have no choice. They choose the improvements, the carpet, when the place is painted, what kind of paint, what the appliances are, etc. Furthermore, they give me no breakdown of where my rent money goes. In fact, the rent money goes to buy them dinners, make their auto payments, etc. In other words, they turn a profit on the rent money and spend it in ways both unknown to me on things which benefit me in no way at all.

Does that answer your question?

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To me forced funding is one of the defining characteristics of government. The moment it becomes voluntary it becomes a mutual aid society or an insurance company or a security firm or something, just not a government.

You own an apartment (again).  You complain about the mandatory building maintenance.  You call it "government," 'coz it's not voluntary.  Is it government?

[...]
Same question to you. You are thirsty and need to buy a bottle of water. You complain about the store clerk forcing you to pay for that bottle of water, which you have to buy, because there isn't any other water around (let's say you're stranded somewhere). Is it government?

No again, and again, what's your point?  Was i the one trying to define the government in terms of nonvoluntary contributions?  Furlogic?

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To me forced funding is one of the defining characteristics of government. The moment it becomes voluntary it becomes a mutual aid society or an insurance company or a security firm or something, just not a government.

You own an apartment (again).  You complain about the mandatory building maintenance.  You call it "government," 'coz it's not voluntary.  Is it government?

Does your landlord force you to pay for building maintenance, local school (despite you not having kids), medical insurance, local libraries, roads that aren't on the building's property that you never use, insurance for elderly who don't live in your apartment, and a slew of other services that have absolutely nothing to do with your apartment nor things you actually receive? Or does your landlord force you to pay for only the specific services that have to do with the apartment you live in, all of which affect you directly?

If building maintenance has to do with the property you reside on, services you receive, and is something you are buying directly, it's not government. If building maintenance includes things that have nothing to do with what you want, need, or actually receive directly, it's government.


Same question to you. You are thirsty and need to buy a bottle of water. You complain about the store clerk forcing you to pay for that bottle of water, which you have to buy, because there isn't any other water around (let's say you're stranded somewhere). Is it government?

Actually, let me take another stab at your question.

The landlord sure as fuck does charge me for stuff I don't need or want, and I have no choice. They choose the improvements, the carpet, when the place is painted, what kind of paint, what the appliances are, etc. Furthermore, they give me no breakdown of where my rent money goes. In fact, the rent money goes to buy them dinners, make their auto payments, etc. In other words, they turn a profit on the rent money and spend it in ways both unknown to me on things which benefit me in no way at all.

Does that answer your question?

You win 5 internets   And kittens for life.

[Rassah]

You own an apartment (again).  You complain about the mandatory building maintenance.  You call it "government," 'coz it's not voluntary.  Is it government?

Does your landlord force you to pay for building maintenance, local school (despite you not having kids), medical insurance, local libraries, roads that aren't on the building's property that you never use, insurance for elderly who don't live in your apartment, and a slew of other services that have absolutely nothing to do with your apartment nor things you actually receive? Or does your landlord force you to pay for only the specific services that have to do with the apartment you live in, all of which affect you directly?

No, kitty, but what's that got to do with anything?  

Simple. When you pay for building maintenance, you are paying for the services you are actually using. Moreover, you are voluntarily paying to maintain your property, since if you don't like the maintenance fees, you can sell your property and buy something cheaper AND this building maintenance fee was something you either agreed to when you first bought the property, or had to either agree to, or give up your property, when it was brought up in a discussion with other apartment owners. When you pay taxes, not only are you being forced to pay for services you are actually using, but also services you are not using, many of which have nothing to do with you, and which you may never need. It's the difference between having to buy a bottle of water so you don't die of thirst, and having to buy a bottle of something you don't need, like mercury, because someone else says you must, who then uses it for their own purposes. It's a fairly basic distinction, isn't it?

You came to US, and now you're bitching about the taxes?  Did you think it was just like Libberland here?  Were you surprised when you learned the truth?

I didn't come here voluntarily, and didn't know anything about this country, or even politics and finance when I came here, BUT, what does this have to do with anything?

[Rassah]

There were no taxes when you came to the States?

No, as a matter of fact, there were not. I didn't even know what taxes were when I moved and lived here.

[ilpirata79]

Useless shit!
All about stealing!

best regards,
ilpirata79

[Rassah]

The landlord sure as fuck does charge me for stuff I don't need or want, and I have no choice. They choose the improvements, the carpet, when the place is painted, what kind of paint, what the appliances are, etc. Furthermore, they give me no breakdown of where my rent money goes. In fact, the rent money goes to buy them dinners, make their auto payments, etc. In other words, they turn a profit on the rent money and spend it in ways both unknown to me on things which benefit me in no way at all.

Actually, if we're talking about rent, that's not your property. The property is the landlord's. You are just buying the right to access their property. Big difference between owning something of your own, and just renting something from someone else. If you actually owned the property instead of rented, then yes, it would be a problem for someone else, like an HOA member, to come into your apartment, charge you money, and force you to change things inside your place against your will.

Please learn the difference between owning something and borrowing something.

[Rassah]

Same question to you. You are thirsty and need to buy a bottle of water. You complain about the store clerk forcing you to pay for that bottle of water, which you have to buy, because there isn't any other water around (let's say you're stranded somewhere). Is it government?

No again, and again, what's your point?  Was i the one trying to define the government in terms of nonvoluntary contributions?

Yes, you were. In the contexts of the OP, the whole topic is about government being an entity that is "stealing" by forcing you to make nonvoluntary contributions.

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You own an apartment (again).  You complain about the mandatory building maintenance.  You call it "government," 'coz it's not voluntary.  Is it government?

Does your landlord force you to pay for building maintenance, local school (despite you not having kids), medical insurance, local libraries, roads that aren't on the building's property that you never use, insurance for elderly who don't live in your apartment, and a slew of other services that have absolutely nothing to do with your apartment nor things you actually receive? Or does your landlord force you to pay for only the specific services that have to do with the apartment you live in, all of which affect you directly?

No, kitty, but what's that got to do with anything?  

Simple. When you pay for building maintenance, you are paying for the services you are actually using.

See FirstAscent reply directly above.

Moreover, you are voluntarily paying to maintain your property, since if you don't like the maintenance fees, you can sell your property and buy something cheaper

just like you can go & live in Somalia -- *no* maintenance fees.

AND this building maintenance fee was something you either agreed to when you first bought the property, or had to either agree to, or give up your property, when it was brought up in a discussion with other apartment owners.

You have no one but your parents to blame -- they've agreed to all this stuff by dragging you here.  Now that you're an adult ... Somaaaaalllia!

When you pay taxes, not only are you being forced to pay for services you are actually using, but also services you are not using, many of which have nothing to do with you, and which you may never need.

Again, see FirstAscent comment above -- the one i gave him all the internets & kittens for.

It's the difference between having to buy a bottle of water so you don't die of thirst, and having to buy a bottle of something you don't need, like mercury, because someone else says you must, who then uses it for their own purposes. It's a fairly basic distinction, isn't it?

Already asked & answered -- next?

You came to US, and now you're bitching about the taxes?  Did you think it was just like Libberland here?  Were you surprised when you learned the truth?

I didn't come here voluntarily, and didn't know anything about this country, or even politics and finance when I came here, BUT, what does this have to do with anything?

As i said, go complain to your mom, and then be a man & do what your folks did:  Don't like where you live, be it an apartment or a country?  Vote with your feet and move.  Free market is a wonderful thing

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Same question to you. You are thirsty and need to buy a bottle of water. You complain about the store clerk forcing you to pay for that bottle of water, which you have to buy, because there isn't any other water around (let's say you're stranded somewhere). Is it government?

No again, and again, what's your point?  Was i the one trying to define the government in terms of nonvoluntary contributions?

Yes, you were. In the contexts of the OP, the whole topic is about government being an entity that is "stealing" by forcing you to make nonvoluntary contributions.

As you rudely cut in, i was replying to Anon316's comment, in which he defined government in terms of non-voluntary contributions.  Next.

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The landlord sure as fuck does charge me for stuff I don't need or want, and I have no choice. They choose the improvements, the carpet, when the place is painted, what kind of paint, what the appliances are, etc. Furthermore, they give me no breakdown of where my rent money goes. In fact, the rent money goes to buy them dinners, make their auto payments, etc. In other words, they turn a profit on the rent money and spend it in ways both unknown to me on things which benefit me in no way at all.

Actually, if we're talking about rent, that's not your property. The property is the landlord's. You are just buying the right to access their property. Big difference between owning something of your own, and just renting something from someone else. If you actually owned the property instead of rented, then yes, it would be a problem for someone else, like an HOA member, to come into your apartment, charge you money, and force you to change things inside your place against your will.

Please learn the difference between owning something and borrowing something.

I own an apartment.  I do not care what the building has for a lawn, i don't use the swimming pool, i wish the frickin' doorman would vanish.  I pay for all of those things. What's your point?

[Rassah]

I own an apartment.  I do not care what the building has for a lawn, i don't use the swimming pool, i wish the frickin' doorman would vanish.  I pay for all of those things. What's your point?

Why did you buy this appartment if you knew you were buying a ton of things you didn't want? And why don't you sell it and trade it for something that doesn't have those things?

Simple. When you pay for building maintenance, you are paying for the services you are actually using.

See FirstAscent reply directly above.

Learn the difference between owning and borrowing. Same as FirstAscent.

Moreover, you are voluntarily paying to maintain your property, since if you don't like the maintenance fees, you can sell your property and buy something cheaper

just like you can go & live in Somalia -- *no* maintenance fees.

Is your premise that USA government owns all the property in the entire country, and thus has the right to charge maintenance fees on everything and everyone? If yes, why do we bother to buy property from each other, since we don't actually own any of it? If no, then what?

AND this building maintenance fee was something you either agreed to when you first bought the property, or had to either agree to, or give up your property, when it was brought up in a discussion with other apartment owners.

You have no one but your parents to blame -- they've agreed to all this stuff by dragging you here.  Now that you're an adult ... Somaaaaalllia!

Last time I checked, I can't force you to take possession of a property without your consent. Tell me, in your world, if your father buys a house for $100,000, and that houses loses value, now being worth only $10,000, but the house still has a $90,000 mortgage on it and requires at least $1,000 a month in maintenance fees, can your father just transfer that house to you and force you to own it and pay for those fees without your consent? If no, then why can my parents force me to take ownership of something, along with all the fees involved, without my consent?

When you pay taxes, not only are you being forced to pay for services you are actually using, but also services you are not using, many of which have nothing to do with you, and which you may never need.

Again, see FirstAscent comment above -- the one i gave him all the internets & kittens for.

Funny you gave him 5 internets for his rant about having to pay rent for living in someone else's house.

It's the difference between having to buy a bottle of water so you don't die of thirst, and having to buy a bottle of something you don't need, like mercury, because someone else says you must, who then uses it for their own purposes. It's a fairly basic distinction, isn't it?

Already asked & answered -- next?

Glad I could answer this for you. I only hope you understood it.

As i said, go complain to your mom, and then be a man & do what your folks did:  Don't like where you live, be it an apartment or a country?  Vote with your feet and move.  Free market is a wonderful thing

Why do you believe I won't? I'm not complaining because this is not an option for me. I should be a multi-millionaire within a couple of years, at which point the option will be easily available. I just want to make sure you f'in lunatics don't come after me because you think wherever it is that I live might have "too much freedom." Moreover, it shouldn't matter whether this is something that affects me directly. At least not to me personally. If you see someone being robbed, raped, or murdered, do you just ignore it and find it acceptable because it's not happening to you?

[Rassah]

i was replying to Anon316's comment, in which he defined government in terms of non-voluntary contributions.  Next.

This should probably have been asked from the very beginning, but, how do you define government?

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i was replying to Anon316's comment, in which he defined government in terms of non-voluntary contributions.  Next.

This should probably have been asked from the very beginning, but, how do you define government?

I don't -- it's useful as a catch-all term to be (hopefully) clarified by its context, like "stuff."  I doubt i could come up with a strict definition, as in "necessary & sufficient."  How about "A person or a group, self-appointed or tasked with governing"?  Too circular?

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I own an apartment.  I do not care what the building has for a lawn, i don't use the swimming pool, i wish the frickin' doorman would vanish.  I pay for all of those things. What's your point?

Why did you buy this appartment if you knew you were buying a ton of things you didn't want? And why don't you sell it and trade it for something that doesn't have those things?

To get the things that i do want?  Duh. I don't have an infinity of choices -- i have to chose from the few apartments in the neighborhood that i like, which i can afford.  Some of them are better than others, none of them are perfect.  Life is hard

Simple. When you pay for building maintenance, you are paying for the services you are actually using.

See FirstAscent reply directly above.

Learn the difference between owning and borrowing. Same as FirstAscent.

I'll try.  did you read the part where i didn't quite care if the dorman vanished, and actually preferred it?  I'll manage, though.

Moreover, you are voluntarily paying to maintain your property, since if you don't like the maintenance fees, you can sell your property and buy something cheaper

just like you can go & live in Somalia -- *no* maintenance fees.

Is your premise that USA government owns all the property in the entire country, and thus has the right to charge maintenance fees on everything and everyone? If yes, why do we bother to buy property from each other, since we don't actually own any of it? If no, then what?

Do i have to explain IRL to you yet again?  If you don't buy the house from its previous owner, you don't get to live in it -- not at all.  If you *do* buy it, you still owe taxes.  As i've pointed out, life is haaaad.  I'm glad you're finally asking questions.

AND this building maintenance fee was something you either agreed to when you first bought the property, or had to either agree to, or give up your property, when it was brought up in a discussion with other apartment owners.

You have no one but your parents to blame -- they've agreed to all this stuff by dragging you here.  Now that you're an adult ... Somaaaaalllia!

Last time I checked, I can't force you to take possession of a property without your consent. Tell me, in your world, if your father buys a house for $100,000, and that houses loses value, now being worth only $10,000, but the house still has a $90,000 mortgage on it and requires at least $1,000 a month in maintenance fees, can your father just transfer that house to you and force you to own it and pay for those fees without your consent? If no, then why can my parents force me to take ownership of something, along with all the fees involved, without my consent?

You'll have to take that up with your parents -- nothing to do with the topic at hand.  Charge them with child abuse?

When you pay taxes, not only are you being forced to pay for services you are actually using, but also services you are not using, many of which have nothing to do with you, and which you may never need.

Again, see FirstAscent comment above -- the one i gave him all the internets & kittens for.

Funny you gave him 5 internets for his rant about having to pay rent for living in someone else's house.

As i've mentioned before, i'm generous to a fault.

It's the difference between having to buy a bottle of water so you don't die of thirst, and having to buy a bottle of something you don't need, like mercury, because someone else says you must, who then uses it for their own purposes. It's a fairly basic distinction, isn't it?

Already asked & answered -- next?

Glad I could answer this for you. I only hope you understood it.

Hope, even in this statist gulag, is free.

As i said, go complain to your mom, and then be a man & do what your folks did:  Don't like where you live, be it an apartment or a country?  Vote with your feet and move.  Free market is a wonderful thing

Why do you believe I won't? I'm not complaining because this is not an option for me. I should be a multi-millionaire within a couple of years, at which point the option will be easily available. I just want to make sure you f'in lunatics don't come after me because you think wherever it is that I live might have "too much freedom." Moreover, it shouldn't matter whether this is something that affects me directly. At least not to me personally. If you see someone being robbed, raped, or murdered, do you just ignore it and find it acceptable because it's not happening to you?

Nobody's coming after you, enjoy your moneys and your freedomz.

[Rassah]

I don't -- it's useful as a catch-all term to be (hopefully) clarified by its context, like "stuff."  I doubt i could come up with a strict definition, as in "necessary & sufficient."  How about "A person or a group, self-appointed or tasked with governing"?  Too circular?

Ok, let's say government is too vague. What term do you use to describe people who force you, with the threat of either a gun or forced imprisonment, to give them your posessions?

Follow-up question: Are you ok with such people doing things? Why and under what conditions?

[Anon136]

"You understand that you got beaten up for defying the bully, not for playing on the jungle gym, right?"

even if we assume for the sake of discussion that there is a valid and useful distinction here, does it alter the morality of the situation? is it immoral for the bully to beat you up for playing on the jungle gym but not immoral for him to beat you up for defying him by playing on the jungle gym? because unless it changed the situation from being immoral to moral than it isnt relevant to the point i was trying to make.

i hear "bully" and i already know he's in the wrong.  Let's assume your mom caught you with your hand in a cookie jar.  She told you to put the cookie back, you refused, she warned you that if you didn't listen to her, she was going to spank you.  You didn't.  She did.  Did you get your ass whipped for taking a cookie, or defying your mom?

This contingency was already covered in my previous example. Your mother gets to set the terms of use for the cookies because she owns the cookies, the bully does not own the jungle gym. If the bully did own the jungle gym and he beat me up for disobeying his order not to play on it, than he wouldn't be a bully, and i WOULD have been the instigator.