willphase
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July 02, 2013, 12:01:31 AM |
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for a POW algorithm to be useful for blockchain verification it must be
- hard to derive (for transaction verifiers) - controllable difficulty (so as more nodes are added, the difficulty can rise) - easy to prove (for relaying nodes)
hash algorithms are good here. An algorithm with primes sounds like it would be based around the factorising problem (e.g. as used in RSA) - but the question is how Sunny has designed it to be variable - perhaps the difficulty is set by the length of required prime in bits, and the POW is two primes and a factor that meet the difficulty. This would be very very ASICable compared with scrypt, but I don't think any off the shelf ASIC cores would exist (unlike with SHA256)
Interested to see what Sunny has come up with here.
Will
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"Your bitcoin is secured in a way that is physically impossible for others to access, no matter for what reason, no matter how good the excuse, no matter a majority of miners, no matter what." -- Greg Maxwell
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h2odysee
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July 02, 2013, 12:16:59 AM |
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It could be that the proof of work algorithm is something like: Generate a prime number in the form: k * 256 ^ n + b where k is the merkle root + nonce, etc. Similar to how a prime number was generated that contains the DeCSS code ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_prime)
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smoothie
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LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
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July 02, 2013, 02:01:16 AM |
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Any centralized checkpoints? If yes, not interested.
This. Also any possible exploits that you are not going to mention publicly as you did when launching PPC and failed to mention it for 4 months? Although I respect your efforts in development, I do look at your track record from your first launch and how you failed to mention important details about an exploit that had not been fixed nor publicly discussed. I still believe in community development > secret development when it comes to cryptocoin networks. We all don't know it all but when we lean on each other for input we sharpen ourselves and in essence sharpen others. I just hope this isn't a repeat of PPC checkpoint and exploits. Edit: after reading the rest of the thread I retract my above statement regarding check pointing. Looks like sunny will allow users enable the check pointing which is an interesting approach.
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DigitalMan
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July 02, 2013, 04:18:26 AM |
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if it's just changing another way to do proof of work, it does not sound innovative to me, coz we already have sha256 and scrypt, and they are working just fine..
nice idea!!
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Vorksholk
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July 02, 2013, 04:29:10 AM |
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In response to questions about people able to cheat with the primes... maybe the coin would, for it's 'target', select a ever-decreasing numeric range for the search, placed at some arbitrary, very-high location. Of course, it's possible there would be no prime in that group, so perhaps after x amount of time a new target would be selected? This does seem like a tricky proof-of-work implementation to create..
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punin
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July 02, 2013, 06:49:39 AM |
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Rannasha
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July 02, 2013, 07:02:20 AM |
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for a POW algorithm to be useful for blockchain verification it must be
- hard to derive (for transaction verifiers) - controllable difficulty (so as more nodes are added, the difficulty can rise) - easy to prove (for relaying nodes)
hash algorithms are good here. An algorithm with primes sounds like it would be based around the factorising problem (e.g. as used in RSA) - but the question is how Sunny has designed it to be variable - perhaps the difficulty is set by the length of required prime in bits, and the POW is two primes and a factor that meet the difficulty. This would be very very ASICable compared with scrypt, but I don't think any off the shelf ASIC cores would exist (unlike with SHA256)
Interested to see what Sunny has come up with here.
Will
There's an additional requirement: The POW solution must depend on the contents of the block that it is associated with. Changing the block should require the POW to be redone. Simply computing a big prime number is insufficient, as it is independent of the block contents.
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XertroV
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Max Kaye
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July 02, 2013, 07:35:25 AM |
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When I first heard about coins like curecoins where the proof of work is actually useful, the first thing that came to my mind is that the reason why hashing works is because hashing enforces that the block rewards goes to the person that found the hash. When the miner informs his peers of his block, his peers cannot steal his block. Whereas with a useful proof of work, the peers can just modify the block to make it seem like they found it. "Oh you found a prime that's this difficult and has these properties? Wait, I found the same exact one a minute earlier!" Granted I didn't spend too much time trying to figure out a way around it. Maybe there's a way to encode the the address of the person that found it in the prime. Looking forward to see what Sunny King came up with.
IE: the content of the hash is dependent on the content of the block header which (because of the merkle root) ensures the coinbase pays the miner. It could be that the proof of work algorithm is something like:
Generate a prime number in the form: k * 256 ^ n + b
where k is the merkle root + nonce, etc.
EG: k = blockheader (presumably prefixed or something to ensure consistent number of digits; as this will have some effect on the difficulty) That would be one way because the prime found would depend on (or rather part of it is) the blockheader. Similar to SHA256 you don't know if there's a solution with the particular blockheader you're using (so you have to search the space - well, if things are done 'right'). I was going to say verifying the prime is difficult; but it's not. Verification of primes can be done in polynomial time, so it's not so bad. Factorizing is the hard bit. So we can have quick to verify, contains the blockheader. The difficulty is easy to integrate; but unfortunately will have a negative effect on verification time (the only way to make prime generation more difficult is to make the primes bigger, so they take longer to verify). Remember that verification is part of the mining process, so there has to be few enough solutions out there to make looking for them harder to ensure consistent verification times; not sure how this will interact with this PoW style. So, issues I can see: overcoming the relationship between the difficulty and verification time (if there is one) and ensuring that there are few enough primes out there to find. The first means the difficulty should shrink the size of the acceptable solution pool (as opposed to making bigger numbers), and the second means arbitrary conditions will need to be chosen by which to define the solution pool. Anyway, curious to see how the PoW works, and as to why there hasn't been any info made open about it yet.
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hl5460
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news.8btc.com
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July 02, 2013, 07:55:16 AM |
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if it's just changing another way to do proof of work, it does not sound innovative to me, coz we already have sha256 and scrypt, and they are working just fine..
and sha256 and scrypt offer scientific research results? I don't think so, there is the innovation, primecoin does something extra for the world to benefit Good point. That's makes more sense to common people for they to accept and use cryptocurrency with ease.
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r3wt
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July 02, 2013, 08:07:59 AM |
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this is that big release we've all been waiting for. the headliner of 2013
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My negative trust rating is reflective of a personal vendetta by someone on default trust.
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digicoin
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July 02, 2013, 12:34:37 PM |
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this is that big release we've all been waiting for. the headliner of 2013
Why? You even don't know how and why this coin can work. I am a little bit skeptical
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bittick
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July 02, 2013, 03:06:08 PM |
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untill there is a proven working concept - it is all just a hype. make it happen and then announce how awesome it is. thank you!
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Xaltotun
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July 02, 2013, 07:25:25 PM |
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This sounds great! I'm looking forward to this Optimus Primecoin. Just beware of the Decepticoins.
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CryptoBullion
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July 02, 2013, 08:24:39 PM |
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this math is a bit above my head, but maybe this HOL is the way to create proof of work? it looks like it breaks the process of finding primes into smaller "proofs of work"? or is this just a way to find primes faster? maybe the steps leading to finding the prime can be used as pow if each step is recorded. https://code.google.com/p/hol-light/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOL_LightStill the first thing that comes to mind is rainbow tables(or even a dictionary type attack but with primes instead of passwords). Even if the proof of work gets hashed by the by value of block headers, something like a rainbow table would be a likely exploit. rainbow tables are used to crack wpa2 and probably other encryption too. A rainbow table for primes should work the same way. then the "miner" armed with the rainbow table would not even have to look for primes unless the prime number target to find a block increased to a prime so large it is unkown. difficulty of a prime can only be changed by looking for a larger unknown prime number. adding difficulty through any other method in the blockchain would just encourage a rainbow table type hack. One way this would "work" and be unhackable / uncheatable is if the blocks are only rewarded upon finding a completely new and unknown prime. This would make the coin VERY scarce, and the difficulty would be absolutely insane, but that would be pretty damn cool though too. Every coin/block awarded would be a breakthrough in prime number math. with the amount of hashing power the btc community has i would not doubt that we could find a large amount of new primes. If the object was to only find unknown primes, then any advancement that someone makes that would seem like a cheat would actually be a break though in prime number math. Same thing would have applied to folding if there were more incentive. The software that does the research always has room for improvement. Making sure that improvement is legitimate is the real trick. still , all pokes to the theory aside, i think this coin should be launched. i dont see any harm of it as long as people dont get too crazy about the new coin and use their life saving to buy a bunch of them. ( which probably happens to some poor dude trying to make a dollar every time a new alt comes out). After a first launch of the coin we can just kick back and watch and see if the exploits surface. If they do, well, then you have more knowledge for improving primecoin v2.0.
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flyingcat
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July 03, 2013, 01:13:55 AM |
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great idea, I like prime numbers, this is the prime number I found: 2232007*2^1490605 - 1, 448724 digits, lol
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flyingcat
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July 03, 2013, 01:17:01 AM |
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great idea, I like prime numbers, this is the prime number I found: 2232007*2^1490605 - 1, 448724 digits, lol
It would be great if we can integrate into the Mersenne prime search, which requires a lot computing powers. This way the miners will do something useful... http://www.mersenne.org/
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hashdice
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July 03, 2013, 01:29:15 AM |
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Sounds great,most innovative coin the year!
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h2odysee
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July 03, 2013, 01:41:19 PM |
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It would be great if we can integrate into the Mersenne prime search, which requires a lot computing powers. This way the miners will do something useful... http://www.mersenne.org/It can't use mersenne primes, unless you want only a block per year.
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justabitoftime
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CoinTropolis
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July 03, 2013, 02:16:38 PM |
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A alt coin by a respected developer and with a totally unique proof of work scheme, this is going to be huge!
Cause we just neeeeeed more altcoins. Since, there just aren't enough... We need more innovative alt coins. There have been none since ppc/ nmc in my opinion Sorry I forgot how innovative DGC and FTC are How cute, an FTC swipe. You do realize Sunny contributed a little code on the FTC hard fork right? Anyway, back to Primecoin. I deeply respect Sunny's work and commitment to the community. If more people spent time contributing and less time swiping, we'd be in a far different place. This project is exciting, I'm interested to see what where the community takes this project. +1
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