Why are some international payment companies not allowing Americans to join?

[muyuu]

Because sadly the US is a rogue state and a menace for any company giving payment or copyright-related services to its citizens.

[beekeeper]

How about check my last post?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=317612.msg3405622#msg3405622

[justusranvier]

It is the responsibility of the US citizen to report their assets to the IRS held in foreign accounts, not the foreign company.

There must be another reason.

It is also the responsibility of all financial institutions that do business in the US to enforce various rules, and also to make sure all financial institutions they deal with do the same regardless of in what jurisdiction those institutions might be located.

[tvbcof]

The reason why multiple financial institutions outside the US are rejecting US citizens is called FATCA - Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act.

It is the responsibility of the US citizen to report their assets to the IRS held in foreign accounts, not the foreign company.

There must be another reason.

Read at least wikipedia about it.  You are flatly wrong.  As long as we (the U.S.) have geo-political reach to impose our will on the rest of the financial world, we can impose $20 of cost on foreign entities for $1 in revenue gain.  I, as a U.S. citizen who is not completely 'isolationist' financially, suffer for it but I'm not representative of the class who is being protected.  Just the opposite most likely.

[balanghai]

Because they don't want to be caught up with 30% tax which always kills entrepreneurs at that rate. Also maybe they just hate and despise the American dream.

[darkmule]

You can say whatever you want and criticize the United States, but this is the Only country in the world that have such a policy against worldwide Cyber Crime and actually DO something!
It may be uncomfortable to US citizens, but the government is sure doing what it suppose to do, and going all over the world to accomplish its goals.

Liberty Reserve, as easy as it was to use for 7 years, was a well-built laundering machine. Not everyone used it to criminal \ 'grey' activity, but sure a whole lot did.

This may be the case with Liberty Reserve.  I have not followed the case, so the fact that I haven't seen any particularly compelling evidence the government claims about it are true doesn't mean much.

However, the Megaupload case strikes me as a classic case of government overreach, the raid on Kim Dotcom was pure jackboot lunacy (and later thrown out by a New Zealand court as illegal), and so far, the U.S. has woefully failed to make any solid case against Megaupload itself (as compared to its customers).  It appears to me that either what Megaupload was doing is legal, or else what a lot of other more well-established corporations (including Google/YouTube) are doing is just as much a crime.

It appears to me they went after Kim Dotcom more because of his larger than life persona (see what I did there) and appearance of being a buffoonish egomaniac than because he actually broke the law.  If he is a lawbreaker, then apparently lawbreaker is just another name for a successful entrepreneur without a big corporate backer.

[wmcorless]

The reason I started this thread because I wanted to join a foreign exchange that would allow me to send USD to and obtain bitcoin to purchase bitcoin mining hardware. Since Mt. Gox had their account seized in the US I was concerned about sending money to them, so I went to BTC-e. They didn't have an easy way to send money other than international wire transfer which was going to cost a sh*t load of fees, so I looked around at some of the the other methods they offered and each one I went to said no new accounts from the US. I was taken back by this because even if the US requested a foreign company to comply with anything, it is optional for the foreign company to do so. Although I wasn't interested in money laundering or any other kind of illegal act such as buying controlled substances, but had a legitimate purpose, I didn't understand why they wouldn't want to do business with Americans. Certainly in Mt. Gox's case failure to comply was costly, and I'm sure once they cross their t's and dot their i's they will get their funds released. The government just wants to make sure they can catch the bad guys, and that's fine by me.

[tvbcof]

...
Although I wasn't interested in money laundering or any other kind of illegal act such as buying controlled substances, but had a legitimate purpose, I didn't understand why they wouldn't want to do business with Americans.
...

If it's any consolation, I'm also squeeky clean and am being sorely abused by the policies and strength of the U.S.  It's not just Bitcoin either.  It was hell just trying to get a few $100's worth of machine parts from an outfit in New Zealand.  And they are one of our most faithful minions for Christsake!

[darkmule]

The government just wants to make sure they can catch the bad guys, and that's fine by me.

I would question that their regulatory position is one of unalloyed altruism.

So far as I can tell, they want to protect the bad guys who pay for their campaigns from the rest of us, while protecting the markets of the bad guys who pay for their campaigns by making it as difficult as possible to access the U.S.-facing markets.  They protect them from foreign corporations whether or not those foreigners are bad guys or not.

[QuestionAuthority]

Because the thieving American government sucks the shit out of a hobos ass and they don't want to get raped by the American warmongers.

[User705]

Cause US government  don't want people to keep bitcoin instead of USD

The US government or for that matter any modern government with a fiat money printer doesn't want the citizens to keep anything but their own currency since it's much easier to tax that way.  When gold was used taxes had to be collected by armed collectors and it was hard since you physically had to take it.  Now if a government wants to feed some special interest like army or social programs in exchange for votes it can just print some more money.  They don't need to go house to house and collect the money from the citizens.  That only works if everyone is holding their own fiat.  But currently the main issue of why foreign companies don't accept USA customers is because the amount of paperwork required to do so costs more then what that customer is likely to bring in profit.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

The reason why multiple financial institutions outside the US are rejecting US citizens is called FATCA - Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act.

It is the responsibility of the US citizen to report their assets to the IRS held in foreign accounts, not the foreign company.

Unfortunately you're wrong. Please inform yourself about FATCA. This is capital controls done in a way never seen before.

It is also the responsibility of all financial institutions that do business in the US to enforce various rules

I believe you don't even need to do business in the US directly. AFAIK FATCA is "recursive". To be compliant, you must ensure every institution you do business with is also compliant.

... and each one I went to said no new accounts from the US. I was taken back by this because even if the US requested a foreign company to comply with anything, it is optional for the foreign company to do so.

No, in practice they don't really have a choice. The only choice is not to do business with any other financial institution in the current financial world, to create a "parallel financial world" that has no connections with the one which accesses the US market. Due to the weight of the US economy, that's just not a viable option.

You don't believe businessmen would just refuse money like that, do you? If they're doing so, there must be a strong reason.

I didn't understand why they wouldn't want to do business with Americans.

Now you know, it's named FATCA.

The government just wants to make sure they can catch the bad guys, and that's fine by me.

I hope, for your own good, that you don't truly believe this bullshit you wrote.

[justusranvier]

I believe you don't even need to do business in the US directly. AFAIK FATCA is "recursive". To be compliant, you must ensure every institution you do business with is also compliant.

I'd call it "viral regulation".

[leopard2]

'land of the free'

The USA is a fascistic, totalitarian dystopia with good PR.

Yup. Late justice. Their parents and grandparents attacked Germany to fight fascism (at least that is the fairy tale found in history books), but now Americans got fascism in their own country. The grandfather died in WW2, and his grandchild gets pepper sprayed by John Pike or worse. Formidable, from a twisted point of view.

I don't think the PR is so good, though. The entire world hates them, just that many countries depend on Uncle Sam's $$$ and don't say that openly. Clearly, there are powerful countries (mainly China) that are still worse than America, so a good relationship with the US is the lesser of two evils.

Of course nobody wants US citizens as customers anymore. They are like whores that are owned by a very ruthless pimp; nobody wants contact with that psychopath; I feel very sorry for every US person (who does not work for the government). Who will come and liberate you now, aliens?

It is almost unbelieveable that there are still so many people who try to become US citizens. That is not a benefit, it is a curse!!!!!!!!  

[wmcorless]

The reason why multiple financial institutions outside the US are rejecting US citizens is called FATCA - Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act.

It is the responsibility of the US citizen to report their assets to the IRS held in foreign accounts, not the foreign company.

Unfortunately you're wrong. Please inform yourself about FATCA. This is capital controls done in a way never seen before.

It is also the responsibility of all financial institutions that do business in the US to enforce various rules

I believe you don't even need to do business in the US directly. AFAIK FATCA is "recursive". To be compliant, you must ensure every institution you do business with is also compliant.

... and each one I went to said no new accounts from the US. I was taken back by this because even if the US requested a foreign company to comply with anything, it is optional for the foreign company to do so.

No, in practice they don't really have a choice. The only choice is not to do business with any other financial institution in the current financial world, to create a "parallel financial world" that has no connections with the one which accesses the US market. Due to the weight of the US economy, that's just not a viable option.

You don't believe businessmen would just refuse money like that, do you? If they're doing so, there must be a strong reason.

I didn't understand why they wouldn't want to do business with Americans.

Now you know, it's named FATCA.

The government just wants to make sure they can catch the bad guys, and that's fine by me.

I hope, for your own good, that you don't truly believe this bullshit you wrote.

I think this is just conjecture on your part. The concept of jurisdiction would preclude any of these statements.
Can you substantiate any of this or show me the provisions?

[Lethn]

Is the US Government trying to disrupt the movement of money?

This isn't necessarily what the U.S are doing ( yet, but they will ) even I know that but a lot of people don't see it that way, I've learned when a country begins to fail the economic restrictions become more and more unreasonable and restrictive, the kind of thing you're seeing in America is called capital flight and wealth transfer, everybody wants to get out of the dollar even if no one will admit it. I have also seen certain financial services that aren't even payment processors denying access to U.S citizens.

It's nothing to do with the people the regulations are just so restrictive and expensive and the dollar so worthless that it's becoming more cost effective to stay out of the U.S entirely, this is why cryptocurrencies are such a good idea though because then you can trade without the U.S government interfering as much and why I'm personally going purely crypto as well. I think I'm going to stick with my original plan of ordering gold/silver because for some reason they don't seem so keen to restrict trade on that just yet, must be the work of central banks.

[leopard2]

Ordering gold will not do you any good. USG registers all rare metal purchases, so you don't truly own it - you are just allow to possess it temporarily. If you want to own gold you need to purchase it anonymously for cash. I think in Canada you can still do that(??)

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

I think this is just conjecture on your part. The concept of jurisdiction would preclude any of these statements.

Man, I'm not inventing anything, just read about the subject, and you'll see it yourself. Since when does the USG care about the concept of jurisdiction BTW?

Can you substantiate any of this or show me the provisions?

More? Okay, let's try.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act
https://www.internationalman.com/78-global-perspectives/1009-fatca-a-tool-of-the-electronic-surveillance-state
http://www.repealfatca.com/
https://www.internationalman.com/78-global-perspectives/995-the-worst-law-most-americans-have-never-heard-of
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Corporations/Foreign-Account-Tax-Compliance-Act-%28FATCA%29

It requires foreign financial institutions, such as banks, to enter into an agreement with the IRS to identify their U.S. account holders and to disclose the account holders' names, TINs, addresses, and the accounts' balances, receipts, and withdrawals.[12] U.S. payors making payments to non-compliant foreign financial institutions are required to withhold 30% of the gross payments.[13][14][15] Foreign financial institutions which are themselves the beneficial owners of such payments are not permitted a credit or refund on withheld taxes absent a treaty override.[16]

[Rez]

If you that's annoying for people who live in the USA, try being a US citizen who moves abroad and also has your account terminated:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/US_expats_feel_the_burden_of_FATCA.html?cid=35932576

The poor bastards can't even renounce their citizenship to avoid the great tax nazi. http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html

I clicked the link.  Now the NSA thinks I'm planning to defect. Haha! Thanks.

Seriously, though - "Want to stop being an American? FUCK YOU, you're an American until WE say you're not. You're going to be a citizen of the Greatest Freedomocracy in the History of EVER, and you're going to like it."

[wmcorless]

Yeah, FACTA is probably the reason, and its no surprise that Democrat fascists are the ones behind this law.

People stop voting for DEMOFASCISTS.

But again, If I started a company in a foreign country and the IRS comes knocking on my door and says give me your papers, I'd tell the to f*ck off!!

So all you companies who are not interested in doing business in the US can give the finger to the DEMOFASCISTS and support your American Customers with love.

Remember They can't do anything to you as long as you don't own assets in the US.