Why do people hate segwit so much?

[FrueGreads]

Thanks for the correction.  You’re absolutely right, “people” don’t hate Segwit.  A small but vocal group of imbeciles led by crooks hates Segwit, and tries to spread a false impression that “people hate Segwit”.  The title of this thread contributes to that.  It’s a cheap propaganda ploy:  “Why do people hate X so much?”, when very few people actually hate X.

You are right, the title is a little misleading, and I guess that the title should be, why is segwit taking so much time to be adopted by users. I think that Bitmain is the only group that didn't really like segwit, mainly because it was done with a soft-fork, and Bitmain's AsicBoost is incompatible with most soft-forks, and this would make them lose their advantage over other miners.

Segwit was a great upgrade, and I'm glad it happened, the way it happened, but I do think it's adoption is taking a lot of time. Finally coinbase has announced that it will adopt segwit, so things will probably go faster now.

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[nullius]

Segwit was a great upgrade, and I'm glad it happened, the way it happened, but I do think it's adoption is taking a lot of time. Finally coinbase has announced that it will adopt segwit, so things will probably go faster now.

Agreed.  Coinbase has been shooting themselves (and their customers) in the foot financially; that economic pressure had to kick in sometime!

As for the long tail of ordinary users, do you have any good ideas for getting the word out that people can save big on fees right now with Segwit addresses?  I mean, people who keep their own private keys but probably don’t run a full node.

Software support is key, and I don’t know too much about different implementations.  It would be helpful if Electrum 3.0 did P2WKH-in-P2SH out of the box; it doesn’t (Bech32 only), but it will successfully restore a BIP39 seed on derivation path m/49'/0'/0' (tested).  I am blissfully ignorant of mobile wallets.  Educating users of Electrum plus popular mobile wallets would probably have a quite considerable “long tail” effect.

Of course I would not yet recommend that people start handing out Bech32 addresses.  Not just yet.  Now, it would be asking for support headaches of the “why can’t people send me money!?” kind.

Thoughts?  I think Segwit will be the most popular technology in the universe, once users see how they can cut their own fees.

(Also, it would be helpful if Core didn’t need to waste dev time on creative defense to protect the network against maliciously coded fork nodes.  Those who need the GUI, will sadly need to wait; and those who don’t need the GUI, also don’t need any hand-holding.)

[Casimir1904]

We had Segwit deposit addresses, Segwit hot wallet refill and segwit cold wallets on the day of activation on btcpop.co
Just to realize that the change goes straight to a p2pkh address when processing withdrawals.
Its easy to blame services but maybe blame Core for still not having a fully supporting wallet?
Most services use the json rpc of bitcoind, to support segwit now we would need to move to raw transactions and change all transactional code.
Where is the point in making so much propaganda for segwit and that most are ready for it but then not even supporting it in the core wallet?
Its now nearly 4 months since activation of segwit.

For sure i'm not going to invest money to create own work arounds or own patches to core code.
We're investing to offer all features in other currencies soon so users can use the features with low fees.
Even the segwit fees are now in avg higher than the non segwit before activation.
There is really no point to invest much time and money to support something what doesn't solve anything at all.

[nullius]

We had Segwit deposit addresses, Segwit hot wallet refill and segwit cold wallets on the day of activation on btcpop.co
Just to realize that the change goes straight to a p2pkh address when processing withdrawals.
Its easy to blame services but maybe blame Core for still not having a fully supporting wallet?

Good to see an early adopter for the technology we awaited so long.  I concur that the lack of Segwit change address support is quite irritating.  That should have been done at least a few months ago.  But I will not so badly blame Core, given the sorts of time sinks which have sucked away developer effort since long before Segwit activated—and reached a time-sucking nadir in the past few months.  For but one of the more recent examples:

Reading in the recent release notes a list of “Network fork safety enhancements”, I can well imagine the internal monologue which must have gone through some dev’s head.  “I need to finally finish this patch for Segwit change address support (plus tests, tests, tests).  No wait, first I need to find some ingenious hack to ban fork nodes who lie about their identities so that they can waste node resources and try to subvert the whole network.  Network safety first.  Sigh.”

It requires prodigious engineering effort to produce mission-critical financial software which handles hundreds of billions of dollars’ worth of value, operates in a hostile network environment, and is never, ever allowed to make the sort of mistake which could drop huge amounts of money on the floor because somebody rushed the change address patch.  I’m so glad that Core gives this to you, me, and everybody else for free so we can run our businesses, whether or not we pitch in what we can for what is an open-source project.

For sure i'm not going to invest money to create own work arounds or own patches to core code.

[Casimir1904]

Thats ofc nonsense, banning the Segwit2x nodes was pointless, if the for had happened the 1x nodes wouldn't have follow those anyway as the bigger blocks would've been rejected.
And the segwit stuff could've been done long before already on testnet and been coded in to be active when segwit activated.
It was also core who said segwit is ready since years and most of the community is ready for segwit and that segwit would solve scaling issues instant.
It was also BIP91 what was accepted by 100% what activated segwit and what included also 2MB Blocks later, without BIP91 their wouldn't be segwit at all.
UASF would have failed, without UASF there wouldn't be Bitcoin Cash and also no Bitcoin Gold,diamond,and 1000 other forks what will follow.
If core had follow the HK agreement there wouldn't be any of those forks either and Segwit had been active since much longer time.

I didn't wait for segwit i never liked the segwit idea but ofc when it was activated I would support it to offer users lower fees but that doesn't work because it isn't ready in fact.
And now the same people blame businesses for not adopting it.
It was also claimed as easier to do than a HF but in fact it isn't, updating the node software would've been easier than changing a lot of transactional code.
Bech32 was merged in pretty quick without need but a option to set the change address not, that option is missing since p2sh addresses and not just since segwit.
Bech32 is nothing important at all and its not even compatible with old nodes and also confusing for users.
If users request a withdrawal on sites to Bech32 addresses they would fail if the service didn't update.

[mda]

There is really no point to invest much time and money to support something what doesn't solve anything at all.

I disagree with you, SegWit fixes transaction malleability and allows use of payment channels for example.

Even the segwit fees are now in avg higher than the non segwit before activation.

Fourfold increase of block size is much but not enough at mass adoption stage. Bitcoin needs on-chain scaling like this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2381234.0 . Or altcoins can be used instead of split chains (the current state of affairs) but it will be quite messy to setup tens/hundreds of different coins.

[btc_enigma]

Basically it requires work to implement which is not as profitable as floating a shitcoin on your exchange and getting profits off that.
Some companies like blockonomics have already announced segwit support

[Casimir1904]

Basically it requires work to implement which is not as profitable as floating a shitcoin on your exchange and getting profits off that.
Some companies like blockonomics have already announced segwit support

We have about 120 coins on our exchange, our main business is p2p loans and we let users decide what coins they use or not, also my personal preferences doesn't matter much at all ( Would not support segwit personal ).

Offering all features for other coins doesn't mean we stop offering them for Bitcoin, users will just have more choices.
Lets call it market.

And why do you tell me that whatever company announced support?
We supported it as one of the first but can't fully support it as our transactions are done with bitcoind and the change goes straight to non segwit addresses.
If the change address type was a config option we would've full support as the first company few hours after activation of segwit.
We was also the first site who had Bitcoin Cash deposits and Withdrawals enabled and the second who had Bitcoin Gold enabled ( Initial sync on that coin was very slow probably intention so the devs had some advantages over others ).

What I was just initial saying here is that if core had full support in bitcoind then the adoption would already be bigger but users blame only companies here for not supporting it.

And saying that they need time is a lame excuse, for merging Bech32 support what isn't supported by most wallets there was enough time.
And Bech32 causes a lot more confusion in the short. ( I'm neutral on Bech32 personal ).

Go back in history how Segwit was called ready all the time and only the "evil" miners blocked it.
In fact nothing was ready and then the excuse comes that they can't develop when they don't know if it will ever be activated.
Thats another lame excuse as they clearly said its ready.
All the features could've been coded in already and a little check if segwit is active on the network would've been enough.
Segwit supporters also said more than once that Segwit will solve the scaling issues instant, after it was activated they switched to "give it some time".
It really doesn't matter if someone like segwit or not, after it was activated most would just use it to avoid high fees if it was possible at least.

I disagree with you, SegWit fixes transaction malleability and allows use of payment channels for example.

Mallaeability is not a big issue and there was better prospals to fix them on all transactions not only on segwit ( Flextrans as example ).
But those would need a HF.
I don't like the payment channels either as it causes or could cause a lot new problems and doesn't fix on chain problems at all.

In the end it doesn't matter at all, not scaling on chain caused the forks and will cause a lot more forks and those causes lot more work and problems.
On chain scaling wouldn't be a problem a HF would've been easier to deal with than all the mess now and all the things Segwit does would've been possible without if a HF was done.
Now Bitcoin will be forced to HF also in the future as it can't compete with the Bitcoin Cash DAA in the long, the first time bigger effect you'll see in a few hours for the next diff epoch.
Blocks will probably be slower for longer time and the backlog of tranactions bigger for longer time and fees higher for longer time and it could happen that the problems only increases with each cycle.
1. Cycle faster blocks as now but still mempool not a single time empty during this epoch.
2. Cycle slower blocks with even higher backlog in the mempool and higher fees for longer time.

It could happen that the cycle with faster blocks becomes even shorter and the cycles with slower blocks longer.
Must not happen and the price difference + backlog with high fees will cause also hashpower switching but in the long it will happen.

Some users fears huge blocks but ignore the fact that scaling on chain doesn't mean there can't be devloped sidechain solutions as well and if those are better they will lead to smaller blocks on chain no matter what the max blocksize is.

Bigger blocks now isn't a problem at all and we don't know if the current sidechain solutions are the best or if there will be better solutions in the future, its trying to solve non existing problems and thinking we're smarter now than people in the future.

Reality is just proving that there was so much going wrong and still going wrong but most are still ignoring reality.

The 2 ( biggest ) mistakes Satoshi Nakamoto made:
1. No dynamic blocksize based on demand like the daa ( Max blocksize = average Blocksize over last N blocks + xx% with a limited max increasing and decreasing to avoid manipulation).
2. Making Gavin Andersen lead dev without asking him.

Without those 2 mistakes we won't debating a scaling issue at all and still smart and good devs would develop more solutions what gives value to the network.

[nullius]

[blah, blah, blah]

Oh, stick a fork in it.  Five minutes of searching found that you’ve embraced “Bitcoin Unlimited”, “Bitcoin ABC”, “Bitcoin Cash”, “Segwit2X”—seemingly every attempt to divide-and-conquer Bitcoin in the past few years!—and you hate Core.

“Btcpop’s Preparation for Potential Hard Forks” involves your declaration “Btcpop holds an opinion on the debate (pro-emergent consensus)” (note BU link!).  “...Therefore, Btcpop will support all competing forms of Bitcoin and grant each option to our users.”  (Bold and underline in the original.)  “Btcpop’s Perspective on Segwit2x” is that “Bitcoin Core has become a anti-free market cult like bully in the Bitcoin space.”  Thanks so much for elucidating your opinion; but Core is sweet and kind, whereas I am a cult-like bully.  At least toward people who try to wreck Bitcoin.  Why, I might become downright nasty if I were to ever find out that Btcpop is “Leading the way with Bitcoin Cash” because “Btcpop’s owner Casimir1904, a Bitcoin user since 2011 and technical wizard, clearly understood the [‘Bitcoin Cash’ fork] event and knew exactly how to prepare.”  (Blah, blah, blah.  Genius, you are.)

What else did I find in five minutes?  People on Reddit discussing something which looks an awful lot like you tried to Sibyl attack with “Bitcoin Unlimited” nodes; I suppose that must be your means of achieving “emergent consensus”.  But if you did, the attempt must have gone over like a wet firecracker:  Bitcointalk user cellard found that “All BU nodes are… fake VMs from Roger Ver except a couple idiots that run it too” with a link showing nodes running, hmmm, “/https://btcpop.co - Free People - Free Market - Free Money - BitcoinUnlimited:1.0.1.1/”.

Interesting allegations there.  In five minutes; I wonder what an hour’s search would find.  Well, if you so enjoy (futilely) playing such network monkey games, it is no wonder you now say this:

Thats ofc nonsense, banning the Segwit2x nodes was pointless,

Thank you, Core, for those aforementioned “Network safety enhancements”.

Such a prolific little forker you are.  Tell me, Casimir1904, are you trying to convert me for “Bitcoin Jesus”?  Or are you ready to sell me some Bitcoin Cash Doubleplus Diamond Unlimited Super2X Plutonium ABCXYZQQQ?  That, I will buy—in exchange for my instant gale of contemptuous laughter.  I’m cracking up right now.  Literally-not-figuratively LOLling.  I needed that; it’s been a long day.

Edit:  I was writing this when Casimir1904 posted again; saw that afterwards.  I think I inadvertently answered it already.

[Casimir1904]

I openly support on chain scaling, that was never a secret. 
I run for a while 100+ BU nodes just to show that the amount of nodes doesn't matter after a argument with someone who said that majority support core because it has more nodes.

The most lead devs of core wasn't around in 2011 at all.
Gmaxwell has "proven" how bitcoin can't work before even.
Luke-JR says that bitcoin should stay for nerds and shouldn't become a big thing.
Luke-JR also says that governments got their authority from god.

Could you try to stay at the facts?
We supported BIP91 like 100% of all miners at that time.
At the moment of writing that Blog post ( What wasn't written by me as you could see ) Segwit2x had 90%+ Miner support.
Why should we support something with 10% or less support what would've probably die if Segwit2x had stay at 90%+?

Segwit2x didn't happen now I support Bitcoin Cash personal more and will offer also features on btcpop for Bitcoin Cash.

How much money did you lost so far because not scaling?
Guess you don't run a business?
With the fork mess there was far less action on many sites as users kept of course their coins to get fork coins.
Transactions fees are one of or highest expenses since months.
Some Transactions could cost already $1000+ ( Lot inputs ), and thats what you get as business, lot small inputs what need to be forwarded to fewer outputs.

I'm in Bitcoin since 2011, I promoted Bitcoin, build business around it and I'm risking a lot of MY money.
And I see how expenses grows for us and income decreases the same time as users are not willing to pay high fees for deposits and withdrawals and p2p loans includes lot deposits and withdrawals.
Investors deposit small amounts or bigger amounts and invest in loans, the borrowers withdrawal the coins and deposit them back to repay what causes also lot smaller withdrawals again.

But as said in my previous post... Most are still just ignoring the reality and then blame those who aren't and who switch more to other solutions.
Not being able to find the reason they switch to other solutions.

[FrueGreads]

As for the long tail of ordinary users, do you have any good ideas for getting the word out that people can save big on fees right now with Segwit addresses?  I mean, people who keep their own private keys but probably don’t run a full node.

Software support is key, and I don’t know too much about different implementations.  It would be helpful if Electrum 3.0 did P2WKH-in-P2SH out of the box; it doesn’t (Bech32 only), but it will successfully restore a BIP39 seed on derivation path m/49'/0'/0' (tested).  I am blissfully ignorant of mobile wallets.  Educating users of Electrum plus popular mobile wallets would probably have a quite considerable “long tail” effect.

Of course I would not yet recommend that people start handing out Bech32 addresses.  Not just yet.  Now, it would be asking for support headaches of the “why can’t people send me money!?” kind.

I'm an average user, and I don't have a lot of tech and development knowledge, even though I have some computer science education. Although the only thing this does for me right now, is to keep me interested about the dev aspects of bitcoin. Since this is hard for me, I'm assuming it will be incredibly hard for the "long tail of ordinary users", that don't have any computer science background. Those users just want to keep things simple, and have a good experience while they use bitcoin, or any other crytocurrency.

Sure they want the faster and cheaper solution, but they will end up using what is offered to them by the masses. Of course that some sort of awareness might help, because they could demand the better solution to be implemented, but they will still only use it when it's available on their "usual services", and they won't search for it by themselves, even if they can.

This is why I think that the segwit use adoption must come from wallets of course, but specially from exchanges, and merchants. We have Trezor, Ledger, Electrum, and Core (probably some more, but I'm not aware of it) allowing users to make segwit tx, but they won't do it, unless the services they use accepts them. Coinbase move is very important, and others need to follow, that's why I "blame" services for the slow process in segwit adoption.

Even for those that do search for solutions, and try to keep informed about what is happening in the "bitcoin dev world", sometimes it's hard to get reliable, and easy to understand information about certain things, and this makes the decision about using or not using something very hard.
For instance I read that Electrum 3.0 is the only wallet that fully supports the bech32 address format. Trezor and Ledger for example, use the nested P2SH addresses (assuming these are the P2SH-P2WPKH addresses). Both support segwit transactions, but from what I read, the new bech32 format (native segwit address) is more efficient since the nested P2SH addresses needs 10% more space to make a segwit tx.

I'm of course more inclined to use Electrum 3.0 with the bech32 addresses, but now I know that there are two formats that are compatible with segwit, and I don't even know if they are compatible between each other (hoping they are, but I still need to do some research about it). I also don't understand why only Electrum is going for the apparently best solution. I guess this is the "other side effect" of decentralization, and to make things clear I'm definitely not against it, but I guess this makes updates harder to apply.

[Casimir1904]

Core doesn't support segwit in full yet.
Core has merged bech32 addresses so with current version it should work to send to and receive from bech32 addresses.
I assume that everyone can receive from bech32 but older wallets can't send to them as they are invalid for them.

I like on chain optimizing so Bech32 isn't bad but who knows about Bech32? Maybe 0.1% of the Bitcoin users? Probably less.

And as said earlier, services often use bitcoind for their transactions and as long core doesn't support it in full they can't support it without a lot of development.
And even if services switch to Segwit then still not every transactions is segwit.
Coins already on services aren't in segwit addresses and moving them first to segwit to do segwit transactions increases the cost for services.
Adoption would start with offering deposit addresses for segwit and then some transactions will be segwit and some not till all coins are naturally turned over.
On the first step users could save a bit in fees on deposits but not on withdrawals on most services.
Hardfork with flextrans + bigger blocks would have solve all current problems and still would allow sidechain development.
This one was the worst solution with segwit, Till the time Segwit adoption comes closer to 100% the blocks will be full already also with Segwit transactions...