ICO bumping Services need to be Stopped!!!

[Joel_Jantsen]

I don't know how many of you'll are aware about this new trend in bitcointalk but it is massively carried out and people are falling victims to it.

What Am I talking about ?

- There are services [like icobrothers] which control 100's of accounts on bitcointalk and are used to pump ICO ann threads.Basically a shill of alt's talking to each other thereby increasing posts in the thread making it look like the project has potential.
- This not only misguides users about the intentions of the project but also promotes army of alt's and shill posters.
- Recently,a legendary member and [Green Trusted] seemed to be involved in the same. [I have included the reference links below]
-Below is my telegram conversation with one of such service providers who offered me the service,I played along to get the details of the accounts and ICO's using them but with no luck.

Telegram Conversation : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2477918.msg25435677#msg25435677

I believe this needs to be stopped.Maybe we can limit the number of max posts an ICO can get in 24 hours.Whatever the outcome is,we need to stop this.

Reference Links :

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2477918.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2474348.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2474207.0

[LTU_btc]

Some time ago I was hired to publish ICO announcement and I got several similar messages. I ignored it, but now I upload it here (sorry for bad quality)



It's really serious problem. I think that ICO's ann, which are using these services deserves to be trashed. But it's really hard to catch them, unless somebody report about these services.
Now about limiting posts in ICO threads, how you imagine it? Especially about these big and popular ICO's which get many posts from normal users.

[botany]

There seem to be many threads, which are bumped up every few minutes - NutrioCoin and MunchCoin being a couple of examples.
Most of the bumps are being made by newbies. Deleting them doesn't seem to work. Could nuking the accounts involved be of some deterrence? It might increase the difficulty involved in offering these services (albeit not by much).

Example.....

Thanks, joining.very good project.

one of the best project

Great job guys!

Good Luck all the best with this project

[Jet Cash]

I've noticed these promotion services appearing on several social networking platforms. I joined Steemit recently, and I made a few trial posts. Half of the initial replies were from operators of upvoting bots. I almost walked from the site when I received requests for $100 or more. I believe that upvoting should be based on content quality, and not on ability to pay for it.

I hope that Bitcoin Talk will not become a victim of this trend. Paid thread promotion pollutes the boards, and it makes it much harder for quality posters to be involved in informed discussions. I would support anything that limits or blocks paid thread promotion.

[botany]

I've noticed these promotion services appearing on several social networking platforms. I joined Steemit recently, and I made a few trial posts. Half of the initial replies were from operators of upvoting bots. I almost walked from the site when I received requests for $100 or more. I believe that upvoting should be based on content quality, and not on ability to pay for it.

I hope that Bitcoin Talk will not become a victim of this trend. Paid thread promotion pollutes the boards, and it makes it much harder for quality posters to be involved in informed discussions. I would support anything that limits or blocks paid thread promotion.

True. One option is to ignore the altcoin announcement board altogether. That seems unfair to all the ICOs which respect the rules of this forum and get pushed down to the second and third pages.
Reporting or deleting individual posts doesn't seem to work because the ICO bumpers have a lot of accounts. The only solution which will slow them down is banning / nuking the accounts involved.

[Welsh]

Something needs to be done, but until theymos figures out what to do just report the posts for the time being. I feel sorry for any of the moderators that have to deal with this nonsense and the amount of reports that come from these but, we can't simply ignore it. Limitations/restrictions likely need to be put into place or if the thread is inviting poor quality posts like the ones quoted above possibly the topic should just be scrapped and the OP warned. I've seen a few people doing self moderated threads which is a step in the right direction but, even then it doesn't seem like they are actively dealing with it.

I'm not even sure what restrictions would actually prevent this that wouldn't hinder a legitimate user. I've seen in the past that a few people have suggested requiring the OPs to pay a fee to post a thread in the section, but that wouldn't even deal with the problem as the problem is the amount of new accounts being created to bump the threads or in some instances higher ranked members being paid to bump the service.

I understand that reporting them is like fighting a losing battle as there's simply not enough manpower to deal with the amount of spam that's happening in that section but, it's got to make it at least a little bit better for the people who are genuinely interested in altcoins/ICOs.

If we are specifically talking about project owners hiring members to bump the topics by making it look like legitimate conversations then this is not something we can prevent. Like you said this happens off site via telegram or what ever and can't be moderated.  I will say though that these accounts are normally easily identifiable and I keep a private list of people I keep an eye on if I suspect them of doing this and then will report them if it's 100% that they are. I've been messaged by mods telling me exactly what happended to them and they are normally permanently banned and with the new merit system that's been introduced eventually we should be able to identify these accounts and be able to ban them completely. It will take time but, I can't see the types of people who actually do this bumping being able to farm their accounts with the new merit system.

True. One option is to ignore the altcoin announcement board altogether. That seems unfair to all the ICOs which respect the rules of this forum and get pushed down to the second and third pages.
Reporting or deleting individual posts doesn't seem to work because the ICO bumpers have a lot of accounts. The only solution which will slow them down is banning / nuking the accounts involved.

Although, it's currently being drowned out by the nonsense there is actually legitimate discussions going on in this section. From my observations airdrops and promise of free coins increase the likelihood of the thread being spammed. The mass majority of the accounts that are bumping the threads are low ranked, and nuking them isn't going to slow them down because they normally make one post on the account and then make another anyway. The higher ranked accounts should see harsh consequences if they are repeatably doing it which from my observations the moderators are handing out harsher penalties if the user has a history of this. Mention this in the report if the user is repeatably bumping or making nonsense replies.

[coinlocket$]

my personal list is here -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3063184.0
64 accounts found

I can write the name of Icos involved if someone wants

[botany]

Something needs to be done, but until theymos figures out what to do just report the posts for the time being. I feel sorry for any of the moderators that have to deal with this nonsense and the amount of reports that come from these but, we can't simply ignore it. Limitations/restrictions likely need to be put into place or if the thread is inviting poor quality posts like the ones quoted above possibly the topic should just be scrapped and the OP warned. I've seen a few people doing self moderated threads which is a step in the right direction but, even then it doesn't seem like they are actively dealing with it.

Most of the bumping seems to be done by newbies. So the patrollers can take care of it. Otherwise, they will have to be handled by mprep / global moderators.

I'm not even sure what restrictions would actually prevent this that wouldn't hinder a legitimate user. I've seen in the past that a few people have suggested requiring the OPs to pay a fee to post a thread in the section, but that wouldn't even deal with the problem as the problem is the amount of new accounts being created to bump the threads or in some instances higher ranked members being paid to bump the service.

One of the 2 threads where bumping was blatant (Nutriocoin) has been trashed. Of course, there is the threat of misuse if this becomes policy (bump up threats to derail a competitors' ICO announcement and get the thread trashed). The only way to stop it would be to ban users to it. If newbie accounts are being used to bump threads, there could be restrictions imposed on who could post in that board (say junior member and above).

my personal list is here -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3063184.0
64 accounts found
I can write the name of Icos involved if someone wants

That is a good list. Noticed that you were asking for somebody from DT to deal with it. That won't work. Some of these accounts don't have signatures and are used exclusively for bumping. They will continue doing so even if they get tagged.

[quanghoa7911]

   I am very thankful for this topic content. Today I spend a whole day just reading forum information and especially the replies in this topic. I think your problem in this topic is also the problem of new people like me. I hope to contribute my ideas here so that the management also builds a better direction for the community.
   Basically, people commenting on pum-like ICOs are also aware of the knowledge of the Bitcoin community. Most of these people are new. They do not even understand what they mean by their own account, nor do they understand how much information affects how many people are involved in the ICO's market. As personal as I have been to the bitcointalk community for the past week, I only read and respond to the information available on the forum but I do not know how to post a personal content that I want. Ask or you want to notify, share with the community. And I have also had some positive responses to other ICOs that I have not explored.
   The Bitcointalk community exists for people to discuss, share knowledge about Bitcoin in general and the Altcoins in particular. The individual's comments and views are their own, depending on their beliefs and personal views. So if the account lockout or restricting them is no longer fair in their freeview and can limit the number of users, weakening the support, enthusiasm of each individual with this community wonderful.
   I would like the management to have specific instructions, easy to understand for each individual when the account is set up with the following content:
 - Help them understand how to approach the forum more easily.
 - Give clear regulations to the community so they know what to post and what should not.
 - The extent of the forum's message to new people and those who seek information from Bitcoin and Altcoins through the forum so that they may consider and evaluate the information they intend to post.
 - The extent to which the content posted by such individuals in their accounts so that they may consider and evaluate the information they intend to post.

   In addition, the forum may also offer information to individuals seeking information on the content of the forum. There are several ways to choose and verify their own information to avoid scams such as present them. may be experiencing. There are penalties and restrictions on accounts for non-fake or untrue content posted to FOMO or pum for certain ICOs that should only be applied to accounts at levels where the knowledge level of knowledge They are beyond the reach of these unlikely mistakes.
   I sincerely thank!

[vintages]

~snip~
   I would like the management to have specific instructions, easy to understand for each individual when the account is set up with the following content:
 - Help them understand how to approach the forum more easily.
 - Give clear regulations to the community so they know what to post and what should not.
 - The extent of the forum's message to new people and those who seek information from Bitcoin and Altcoins through the forum so that they may consider and evaluate the information they intend to post.
 - The extent to which the content posted by such individuals in their accounts so that they may consider and evaluate the information they intend to post.

Well it seems to be a good suggestion but I believe that anyone who is opening an account in bitcointalk might be familiar with other forums and the way the internet works. That is, if you become a member of a forum, you should seeks out informations on how the forum works. There is always a beginners board in every forum.

The problem we are having here is that some people heard about this forum from their friends or relatives. And when they register here, they start posting and participing in signature campaigns without bothering to know about forum rules and regulation.
Not that knowing about it from a friend is a bad thing but at least they should try to read informations that'll enlighten them as a beginner first.

[Ginzink]

I would support newbie and jr. member accounts posting does not bump up the threads.
So they can post as before, but for the thread to be bumped a member or above needs to post.

This way normal users with newbie/Jr. member wont suffer but the scammers will.

[coinlocket$]

my personal list is here -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3063184.0
64 accounts found
I can write the name of Icos involved if someone wants

That is a good list. Noticed that you were asking for somebody from DT to deal with it. That won't work. Some of these accounts don't have signatures and are used exclusively for bumping. They will continue doing so even if they get tagged.

You right man, perhaps a ban from mod is better in this case.

[Welsh]

Most of the bumping seems to be done by newbies. So the patrollers can take care of it. Otherwise, they will have to be handled by mprep / global moderators.

Yes, that is true and I tend to know who's dealing with my reports when it comes to mprep and the global moderators. In fact I think I know the time zones of most of them by now.  

One of the 2 threads where bumping was blatant (Nutriocoin) has been trashed. Of course, there is the threat of misuse if this becomes policy (bump up threats to derail a competitors' ICO announcement and get the thread trashed). The only way to stop it would be to ban users to it. If newbie accounts are being used to bump threads, there could be restrictions imposed on who could post in that board (say junior member and above).

These threads ring some bells, but I can't remember exactly what was in the OP. Normally threads are scrapped if they are offering an incentive to post on their thread this could be on their website, twitter and isn't specific to the OP. So it actually pays off when reporting to check all of their social media accounts and websites to see if they are offering any bonuses and if they are that will save you and the mods dealing with a bunch of reports.  

Otherwise it tends to be just deleting the replies instead of trashing the thread due to what you mentioned with competitors potentially sabotaging each other.

[Quickseller]

This problem is not unique to bitcointalk, and is a problem for ~all of social media.

Pretty much all social media is the victim of astroturfing, and very vulnerable to groupthink.

The astroturfing/fake interest/fake bumping problem will require changes at a very high level of the forum.

Things like the merit system and the captcha to login are major steps in the right direction, however users were grandfathered into their ranks with the introduction of the merit system, and users can bypass the captcha by saving login cookies, so established "astroturfers" will not be hampered by these countermeasures.

I think one solution would be to force users with under x posts/activity/merit/rank to solve a captcha every n posts they make, this could be every post, or it could be every 2nd, 3rd, 5th, etc post they make. Those with a copper membership would be exempt.

If the above is not something theymos is willing to implement, or if the above is insufficient, theymos could force login cookies to expire periodically, perhaps every week, or every 15 days. This would be a minor annoyance for some users, however would force those with hundreds of accounts to spend a lot of resources logging into their accounts, especially considering that google may slow down their ability to even attempt the captcha after attempting it many times.

Both of the above would make these services much less profitable, and more resource intensive for those offering said services. As previously mentioned, these spammers will eventually get rate limited by google, preventing the spammers/astroturfers from doing their job.

Another good idea, but something that would require a little more effort on the backend, would be to change the order in which ANN threads are listed in the ICO/altcoin section to something more random for threads that have been recently posted in. For example, all threads that have been posted in over the last 48 hours could be grouped together and ordered randomly, and threads without posts in the last 48 hours (or whatever timeframe is used) would continue to be ordered by date of last post. This would effectively make bumping an ANN thread useless if done the way these spammers are doing it.

More drastic measure would be to close registration, and/or charge a fee to register/post.

[botany]

Another good idea, but something that would require a little more effort on the backend, would be to change the order in which ANN threads are listed in the ICO/altcoin section to something more random for threads that have been recently posted in. For example, all threads that have been posted in over the last 48 hours could be grouped together and ordered randomly, and threads without posts in the last 48 hours (or whatever timeframe is used) would continue to be ordered by date of last post. This would effectively make bumping an ANN thread useless if done the way these spammers are doing it.

This would definitely make people lose the incentive to bump up threads. The flipside is that people are so used to using the  time of the last reply to check whether there is any new activity on the thread and would get confused. Also the effort involved to make a change like this is too much, considering that this is a problem specific to one section of the forum.

[Quickseller]

Another good idea, but something that would require a little more effort on the backend, would be to change the order in which ANN threads are listed in the ICO/altcoin section to something more random for threads that have been recently posted in. For example, all threads that have been posted in over the last 48 hours could be grouped together and ordered randomly, and threads without posts in the last 48 hours (or whatever timeframe is used) would continue to be ordered by date of last post. This would effectively make bumping an ANN thread useless if done the way these spammers are doing it.

This would definitely make people lose the incentive to bump up threads. The flipside is that people are so used to using the  time of the last reply to check whether there is any new activity on the thread and would get confused. Also the effort involved to make a change like this is too much, considering that this is a problem specific to one section of the forum.

When compared to the amount of time it would take to moderate these sections, the effort to make this change would not be all that much. When considering that you cannot realistically moderate these types of services (far too many false positives) with any significant effectiveness, I would say it would be worth the effort.

Users can use the watchlist and 'show new replies to your posts' to check for updates, and someone can create a sticky explaining how threads are sorted  in that section.