Bitcoin is Dead

[letuslook]

And that is why bitcoin system is epic: greed improve the security

Nice quote

[MooC Tals]

Crytonibb, first of all miners are transaction auditors and they are being paid 25 Bitcoin to solve or audit a block of transactions using a computer. 2500 dollars. Think. ASIC miners are useless if we are going to uninstall our bitcoin clients. Stupid.

Really? You can't see the logic in that? Bitcoin was worth 10 dollars when only a few people were mining after it gain INTEREST by many more people it was speculated up. Now its going down to 82 dollars (last time I checked).

When people uninstall their wallets they're not buying or trading bitcoins and become uninterested in bitcoin.

Less people using bitcoin is bad all around for bitcoin.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Most people will not be miners.   Most people don't mine gold.  Most people don't grow their own food.  Most people don't build their own cars.

Most people will not be miners.  Anyone who had a belief that the Bitcoin network would someday have billions of miners was simply delusional.  Reality is crashing into that delusion and that is why we get threads like this.

Decentralized doesn't require 100% of users to mine Bitcoin.  The reality is today many people <gasp> don't mine.  Do you think most of the shops using Bitpay are also miners?  Anyone think namecheap has nothing better to do then build a bunch of GPU rigs in their datacenter?  I made enough from Bitcoin related services that it is now my sole employment and (I know this will be very difficult to comprehend) I don't mine.  My GPU rigs went dark in January.  Gavin collects a salary developing the client.   The list goes on and on. 

The idea that mining = Bitcoin is simply a delusion. 

Now Bitcoin does need to be decentralized.  It would be optimal to have four or five companies producing hardware competing on cost, efficiency, features, etc.  We aren't there yet.  BFL shares a lot of the blame for that.  They simply weren't ready in 2012 (lolz it is funny how not ready they were) to make the kind of promises they did.  That accelerated the time table.  People stopped working on FPGA and rushed ASIC plans.  Had BFL been even slightly more realistic about ASIC products the transistion would be be a little less rushed.  All that is water under the bridge though.

In time KnC, ASICMiner, BFL, Avalon, etc will all have sufficient capacity to have reasonable delivery timeframes.  New players will emerge, better tech will be developed, life will go on.  Not everyone will be a miner.  I was forced out of mining because of a lack of time and in hindsight it was the great.  Someday I will buy an ASIC rig, probably a small one (whatever that means in future hashing power) and just let it mine on p2pool.  It won't be a way to get rich, it won't be a hope that $1,000 in gear will someday make me a billionaire.  As long as it can break even and convert electricity into coins I will be happy.  I probably am not alone in that respect.  A lot of people have small realistic goals.  Thousands of people with modest amounts of hashing power will secure the network.   Now if you WANT to be a professional miner well the days of just buying 20 GPU from NewEgg and making a fortune are over (if they ever existed) it is going to require real capital, real resources, real commitment.  So those at that fork in the read think about what you want to do and be realistic about it.

[CompNsci]

So many times we here "the sky (or BTC price) is falling". Doesn't seem to have happened yet despite many incidents that have had a negative impact on the market.

[MooC Tals]

Most people will not be miners.   Most people don't mine gold.  Most people don't grow their own food.  Most people don't build their own cars.

Most people will not be miners.  Anyone who had a belief that the Bitcoin network would someday have billions of miners was simply delusional.  Reality is crashing into that delusion and that is why we get threads like this.

Decentralized doesn't require 100% of users to mine Bitcoin.  The reality is today many people <gasp> don't mine.  Do you think most of the shops using Bitpay are also miners?  Anyone think namecheap has nothing better to do then build a bunch of GPU rigs in their datacenter?  I made enough from Bitcoin related services that it is now my sole employment and (I know this will be very difficult to comprehend) I don't mine.  My GPU rigs went dark in January.  Gavin collects a salary developing the client.   The list goes on and on.  

The idea that mining = Bitcoin is simply a delusion.  

Now Bitcoin does need to be decentralized.  It would be optimal to have four or five companies producing hardware competing on cost, efficiency, features, etc.  We aren't there yet.  BFL shares a lot of the blame for that.  They simply weren't ready in 2012 (lolz it is funny how not ready they were) to make the kind of promises they did.  That accelerated the time table.  People stopped working on FPGA and rushed ASIC plans.  Had BFL been even slightly more realistic about ASIC products the transistion would be be a little less rushed.  All that is water under the bridge though.

In time KnC, ASICMiner, BFL, Avalon, etc will all have sufficient capacity to have reasonable delivery timeframes.  New players will emerge, better tech will be developed, life will go on.  Not everyone will be a miner.  I was forced out of mining because of a lack of time and in hindsight it was the great.  Someday I will buy an ASIC rig, probably a small one (whatever that means in future hashing power) and just let it mine on p2pool.  It won't be a way to get rich, it won't be a hope that $1,000 in gear will someday make me a billionaire.  As long as it can break even and convert electricity into coins I will be happy.  I probably am not alone in that respect.  A lot of people have small realistic goals.  Thousands of people with modest amounts of hashing power will secure the network.   Now if you WANT to be a professional miner well the days of just buying 20 GPU from NewEgg and making a fortune are over (if they ever existed) it is going to require real capital, real resources, real commitment.  So those at that fork in the read think about what you want to do and be realistic about it.

I agree about mining however you are missing the whole Idea of bitcoin as being adopted by the people. Who are these people?

Is it me?
No

Are they the speculators at the exchange?
You don't think they will stick around when the government makes it illegal to compete with the USD dollar? I hear someone want to IPO bitcoin! I wonder if someone wants out of bitcoin with out having to dump all their coins and adversely effect the price?

Could it be the GPU miners?
I don't think so, I see them shutting down or moving to litecoin. Have you seen litecoin dropping in price? No

Oh you must be talking about the retailers that will need to exchange their Bitcoins into USD through the exchange. Have you seen or heard the new rules being put to exchange services( libertybell for one example ) and how they are being shut down.

lets check the price of bitcoins (oh 79 dollars) My lord its dropping in price

You see there is more to problem then just miners but miners are the base support of Bitcoin and what was holding up the house of cards. Now that the adopters are going as we speak and 'good riddance' according to you and others now we see less support for bitcoins.

Hey don't hate the messenger here.

[Portnoy]

Most people will not be miners.   Most people don't mine gold.  Most people don't grow their own food.  Most people don't build their own cars.

Most people will not be miners.  Anyone who had a belief that the Bitcoin network would someday have billions of miners was simply delusional.  Reality is crashing into that delusion and that is why we get threads like this.

Decentralized doesn't require 100% of users to mine Bitcoin.  The reality is today many people <gasp> don't mine.  Do you think most of the shops using Bitpay are also miners?  Anyone think namecheap has nothing better to do then build a bunch of GPU rigs in their datacenter?  I made enough from Bitcoin related services that it is now my sole employment and (I know this will be very difficult to comprehend) I don't mine.  My GPU rigs went dark in January.  Gavin collects a salary developing the client.   The list goes on and on.  

The idea that mining = Bitcoin is simply a delusion.  

Now Bitcoin does need to be decentralized.  It would be optimal to have four or five companies producing hardware competing on cost, efficiency, features, etc.  We aren't there yet.  BFL shares a lot of the blame for that.  They simply weren't ready in 2012 (lolz it is funny how not ready they were) to make the kind of promises they did.  That accelerated the time table.  People stopped working on FPGA and rushed ASIC plans.  Had BFL been even slightly more realistic about ASIC products the transistion would be be a little less rushed.  All that is water under the bridge though.

In time KnC, ASICMiner, BFL, Avalon, etc will all have sufficient capacity to have reasonable delivery timeframes.  New players will emerge, better tech will be developed, life will go on.  Not everyone will be a miner.  I was forced out of mining because of a lack of time and in hindsight it was the great.  Someday I will buy an ASIC rig, probably a small one (whatever that means in future hashing power) and just let it mine on p2pool.  It won't be a way to get rich, it won't be a hope that $1,000 in gear will someday make me a billionaire.  As long as it can break even and convert electricity into coins I will be happy.  I probably am not alone in that respect.  A lot of people have small realistic goals.  Thousands of people with modest amounts of hashing power will secure the network.   Now if you WANT to be a professional miner well the days of just buying 20 GPU from NewEgg and making a fortune are over (if they ever existed) it is going to require real capital, real resources, real commitment.  So those at that fork in the read think about what you want to do and be realistic about it.

I agree about mining however you are missing the whole Idea of bitcoin as being adopted by the people. Who are these people?

How about people who want to send money to anyone they want without some middle man getting in the way and charging a high fee,
or arbitrarily freezing their funds because they don't approve of the transaction... how about merchants who also don't want middle men
charging them high fees as well as not having to worry about chargebacks...  How about migrant workers who want to send money back
to their families...  We will probably see greater adoption in the third world than anywhere else because of its advantages over existing systems. 

Bitcoin is a lot more than some commodity to be traded like gold.  It is people who only see it as that who are missing the whole idea behind Bitcoin. 

Bitcoin is a revolutionary global peer-to-peer decentralized payment system with very low fees. And it works just as well at $1 per BTC as at $1000 per BTC. 

[DeathAndTaxes]

...you are missing the whole Idea of bitcoin as being adopted by the people. Who are these people?

Is it me?
No

I don't want to be a ballerina.  Strangely I don't spend my days on ballerinatalk.org

[PrintMule]

...you are missing the whole Idea of bitcoin as being adopted by the people. Who are these people?

Is it me?
No

I don't want to be a ballerina.  Strangely I don't spend my days on ballerinatalk.org

THis comment just made my day, lol

[MooC Tals]

Most people will not be miners.   Most people don't mine gold.  Most people don't grow their own food.  Most people don't build their own cars.

Most people will not be miners.  Anyone who had a belief that the Bitcoin network would someday have billions of miners was simply delusional.  Reality is crashing into that delusion and that is why we get threads like this.

Decentralized doesn't require 100% of users to mine Bitcoin.  The reality is today many people <gasp> don't mine.  Do you think most of the shops using Bitpay are also miners?  Anyone think namecheap has nothing better to do then build a bunch of GPU rigs in their datacenter?  I made enough from Bitcoin related services that it is now my sole employment and (I know this will be very difficult to comprehend) I don't mine.  My GPU rigs went dark in January.  Gavin collects a salary developing the client.   The list goes on and on. 

The idea that mining = Bitcoin is simply a delusion. 

Now Bitcoin does need to be decentralized.  It would be optimal to have four or five companies producing hardware competing on cost, efficiency, features, etc.  We aren't there yet.  BFL shares a lot of the blame for that.  They simply weren't ready in 2012 (lolz it is funny how not ready they were) to make the kind of promises they did.  That accelerated the time table.  People stopped working on FPGA and rushed ASIC plans.  Had BFL been even slightly more realistic about ASIC products the transistion would be be a little less rushed.  All that is water under the bridge though.

In time KnC, ASICMiner, BFL, Avalon, etc will all have sufficient capacity to have reasonable delivery timeframes.  New players will emerge, better tech will be developed, life will go on.  Not everyone will be a miner.  I was forced out of mining because of a lack of time and in hindsight it was the great.  Someday I will buy an ASIC rig, probably a small one (whatever that means in future hashing power) and just let it mine on p2pool.  It won't be a way to get rich, it won't be a hope that $1,000 in gear will someday make me a billionaire.  As long as it can break even and convert electricity into coins I will be happy.  I probably am not alone in that respect.  A lot of people have small realistic goals.  Thousands of people with modest amounts of hashing power will secure the network.   Now if you WANT to be a professional miner well the days of just buying 20 GPU from NewEgg and making a fortune are over (if they ever existed) it is going to require real capital, real resources, real commitment.  So those at that fork in the read think about what you want to do and be realistic about it.

I agree about mining however you are missing the whole Idea of bitcoin as being adopted by the people. Who are these people?

How about people who want to send money to anyone they want without some middle man getting in the way and charging a high fee,
or arbitrarily freezing their funds because they don't approve of the transaction... how about merchants who also don't want middle men
charging them high fees as well as not having to worry about chargebacks...  How about migrant workers who want to send money back
to their families...  We will probably see greater adoption in the third world than anywhere else because of its advantages over existing systems. 

Bitcoin is a lot more than some commodity to be traded like gold.  It is people who only see it as that who are missing the whole idea behind Bitcoin. 

Bitcoin is a revolutionary global peer-to-peer decentralized payment system with very low fees. And it works just as well at $1 per BTC as at $1000 per BTC. 

Give me a running total of all the steps and additional costs of transferring my money from USD to bitcoin and back. Along with all the accounts needed the wallet the exchange rates the fees dinged through exchangers.

lol its almost impossible from here in Canada. Not everyone will bother.

@PrintMule Ballerinas need to pay their bills in USD miners pay they bills in USD people work for USD because they pay their taxes in USD.

What is keeping bitcoin value? People who want to skirt the grasp of the government? You mean criminals? You mean tax evaders? You need to think about that a minute. Right Death&taxes?
 
Bitcoin has no intrinsic value (what gives bitcoin its value?) and it was argued that power spent by GPU's were giving a base value of bitcoin. However now we have a unit that can run all year long for 100 dollars so where is the value of bitcoin?

Look I'm not new to economics and I'm far from being an expert but I really don't see bitcoin surviving the trend.

The trend is less people are interested in bitcoin everyday as long as the price of bitcoin drops. Bitcoin is being attacked by both ends. The miners and the ease of exchanging bitcoins to the USD.

I don't make the rules guys I just want you guys to know that what I see according to the trend is not a very good thing.

That argument is not thought our thoroughly 

[crumbs]

[...]
I agree about mining however you are missing the whole Idea of bitcoin as being adopted by the people. Who are these people?

How about people who want to send money to anyone they want without some middle man getting in the way and charging a high fee,
or arbitrarily freezing their funds because they don't approve of the transaction... how about merchants who also don't want middle men
charging them high fees as well as not having to worry about chargebacks...  How about migrant workers who want to send money back
to their families...  We will probably see greater adoption in the third world than anywhere else because of its advantages over existing systems. 

I'm not speaking for MooC Tals, but the adopters you've listed just don't seem to be ... adopting.  If the existent user base begins to erode (GPU miners shifting to altcoins, etc.), it's hard to see that as good news for Bitcoin as a whole.

Bitcoin is a lot more than some commodity to be traded like gold.  It is people who only see it as that who are missing the whole idea behind Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is a revolutionary global peer-to-peer decentralized payment system with very low fees. And it works just as well at $1 per BTC as at $1000 per BTC. 

The term "Revolutionary" has been debased by pitchmen.  Events are only "revolutionary" in hindsight. The fight's still on -- it's just unrest, uprising -- whatever you want to call it.  If Bitcoin wins -- the winners will justly call it revolutionary.  And in a revolution, having the miners on your side is a big win.

[MooC Tals]

Hey crumbs what gives the USD value in this type of economy? OIL and the MILITARY that enforces countries in using the USD to facilitate trade. Right?

Now how are we to expect that a force such as this will step aside and allow us to skirt the rules? They will not.

I see them shutting down any way possible way to transfer bitcoin to USD LEGALLY!

They are in control as long as we need their USD to pay for products. Retailers will not accept bitcoin if they can no longer exchange it to USD with any legal services in place and if they do it could be construed as tax evasion.

Am I wrong here?

[crumbs]

Hey crumbs what gives the USD value in this type of economy? OIL and the MILITARY that enforces countries in using the USD to facilitate trade. Right?

Now how are we to expect that a force such as this will step aside and allow us to skirt the rules? They will not.

I see them shutting down any way possible way to transfer bitcoin to USD LEGALLY!

They are in control as long as we need their USD to pay for products. Retailers will not accept bitcoin if they can no longer exchange it to USD with any legal services in place and if they do it could be construed as tax evasion.

Am I wrong here?

No, you're right, but expect to be shouted down & mocked -- your opinion is not popular on this forum.  When the party's over, pointing that out won't win you any friends

[MooC Tals]

Hey crumbs what gives the USD value in this type of economy? OIL and the MILITARY that enforces countries in using the USD to facilitate trade. Right?

Now how are we to expect that a force such as this will step aside and allow us to skirt the rules? They will not.

I see them shutting down any way possible way to transfer bitcoin to USD LEGALLY!

They are in control as long as we need their USD to pay for products. Retailers will not accept bitcoin if they can no longer exchange it to USD with any legal services in place and if they do it could be construed as tax evasion.

Am I wrong here?

No, you're right, but expect to be shouted down & mocked -- your opinion is not popular on this forum.  When the party's over, pointing that out won't win you any friends

Sigh* I know this all too well.

[thermos]

Miners like ASIC foundation have the power and money to disrupt a crypto coin. They are just an example, of how the usual guy is going to be left out eventually.

Pray tell what is this mythical ASIC foundation, good sir?

AM insiders club they sell shares on an exchange and people are "investing" in them NYC;)

[bugarbit]

Having to post here first makes ME want to die

[DeathAndTaxes]

Having to post here first makes ME want to die

The good news is you can later delete your post and pretend it never happened .... but you will always know it did.

[thermos]

" To late. ASIC manufacturers are a single monopoly. "


the bitcoin insiders club is the monopoly and the bitcoin key cracker is only to target "dead" accounts with over 1000 coins we believe there is still hope NYC;)

[LeoS]

It's interesting to see that some mining hardware manufacturer sells their devices in BTC and some in USD.

[thermos]

Back to the original topic ...

First, novelty is bad. Novelty does not increase the real value and utility of Bitcoin. As long as the main selling point for Bitcoin is its novelty, its adoption will never grow beyond the nerds in their parents' basements. The only way Bitcoin can grow is by killing the novelty.

Second, if there is any centralization of mining, it is only temporary. Anyone can get into ASIC mining. Right now you can buy the Block Erupter USB sticks -- they only cost 1 BTC, and thousands are being sold. Someday, BFL will ship their Jalapenos. There are several companies that are designing ASICs and soon will be selling chips that others will incorporate into mining hardware that will be bought by everyone.

Finally, even though ASICMINER mines 1/3 of the bitcoins, shutting them down would not shut down Bitcoin. There is no problem of lack of decentralization here. Your fears are unfounded.

Call it romance then instead of novelty. There is a reason why you, I and allot of other people spend so much time in a digital currency. Because they feel they are part of it, and help it grow.

Once you are relegated to never ever in your life be able to produce even one single coin, you feel no part in creating it.

Your must be bad a math, because what you posted is actually pure novelty. Those USB sticks where started to be sold once they generated less in one year what they even cost to purchase.

Would you spend 1000$ to make 10$ a year?

There are tons of ways better to make an investment, and buying ASIC devices right now is a huge bad deal. Unless you buy 10,000$ or 100,000$ in ASIC devices, and plan to hook them as soon as next month.

By the time those Jalapenos hit the main stream market, they will generate barely nothing at all. Their users will never pay them off, ever. You see? The company knows this, this is why they are selling them.

Also, you all fail to see, that as far as I know, Bitcoin belongs to China now.

Don´t you think there aren´t people with money in China? Not to mention people that can get chinese chips faster than you or I will ever get. If they are the only ones in the world capable of producing the chips that produce the globals Internet currency, then we have a problem. Its far from a global e-currency, if one single part of the world has a huge market advantage over the rest.

You could say the rest about standard computers right? Well no. Because when Bitcoins appeared the whole world had computers already, and the market is stable. ASIC are new, and are just hitting the market, so they will be steadily controlled, in particular because they only fulfill one purpose, make Bitcoins.

Please notice that has nothing to do with China or Chinese, which have the right to produce bitcoins like everyone else. But its like saying the Federal bank or the machine that prints money is in China.

The problem is with Bitcoins. The protocol is flawed. Standard computing fails. And if we cannot use standard computing to produce a currency which is supposed to be used in standard computing then "Houston, we have a problem."

You do not buy or trade with ASIC devices either right?

we are not the drones you are looking for, re: open source asic usb miners specs all if our friends are free to copy and distribute just please send us one to try out: bitcoinreporter@yahoo.com NYC;)

[jnagyjr]

To be honest, I wouldn't mind having my own ASIC miner, if for nothing else then grins and giggles.