BitClip: Now with concept drawings!

[natman3400]

I was thinking that someone should sell a portable bitcoin "wallet" device designed to provide secure portable payment.
It would be designed to PCI DSS* for a payment portal (with the exception of using wifi). My idea is a small portable computer with a cheap little x86 or arm processor, and either wifi or Ethernet (business providing dedicated Ethernet hook-ups for payment?) and some sort of network card that could be locked down to only being allowed to connect to a pre-defined list of bitcoin nodes on a hardware level (if this cant be done, then we could lock it down from within drivers, or other things).  This device would probably run either a custom distro of linux or one of BSD. This distro would only allow 3 functions: 1.password protection (including drive encryption), 2.Running a bitcoin client, 3.Wifi connection management. It would have a low-viewing angle touch screen (so they would have to be behind you to see what your typing). This combination of locking down the network and inability to use it for anything other then the Bitcoin client would make it really damn hard to plant a Trojan in to steal the wallet. The encryption of the drive would also make it hard to get the wallet out if you didn't know the device password. In the advanced model, one might include some sort of a printer in which you feed in pre-cut bits of paper so it can print these: http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=3716 for places that don't have wi-fi. This device would also use a cheap via/arm cpu to keep the cost low. You don't need much to run a striped down linux.Please put your opinions in this thread, and If the idea is well-received, I might even make it once I get my computer store started. It would also help if you donate to the address in my signature.

*I have currently only attended one 4-hour seminar on PCI DSS (than god for bitcoin, If it secedes then most of that would go away)

Contest details in this post: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=24852.msg352242#msg352242


Current project funding: 0.01 BTC
Donation address: 1BCincd4sHM1ou5QcxZ4vc4hKzsxXCpQT (firstbits: 1BCinc ; 1BitClip inc.)
If you donate and want something out of it, just shoot me a PM and we can discuss an option.



After some thought I have boiled it down to this project range(some to be released at a later date(or not at all), as noted by the *s)(All specs shown may change):

-The MyBit: 80mhz arm processor, 80x80 old nokia screen, phone style keypad, joystick-y-thingy, not much else, Has the basic wifi connectivity needed to be used as a bitcoin wallet, cheapest model, possible optional QR code scanner, little to no vendor API compatibility, just a stand alone wallet, cheap plastic case, and sluggish (possibly to the point where it impairs use, but it keeps it cheap)

-The BitClip: 456mhz Arm processor, 360x120 touch screen, possibly with qwerty keypad (optional?), basis for all other models, defiantly has QR code scanner by default, more the size and shape of a small touch screen phone, more fluid and de-compacted interface, possible optional vendor API module (cheap ass open source proprietary (of my creation) radio transceiver) allowing for the direct secure transfer of gpg encrypted wallet.dats containing a specified amount of bitcoins

-*The BitClip Family: A high security, non portable version of the BitClip, essentially acting as the family bank, multi-user interface that encrypts the separate sections of its SSD or other using different passwords, a main account access pin for each user that can be used to withdraw a specified maximum amount from the main account daily/weekly/monthly

-*The BitDroid*: An android phone having the latest dualcore ARM processor, and plenty of ram, the trick lies in that it actually has two chipsets, also having a (roughly) 200mhz arm processor that runs the BitClipOS, change between them with a multiplexer and a switch, BitClipOS BitDroid edition having the ability to detect the position of the switch, turns off when using android

-*The BitTab*: Same as above, except its a tablet, possibly having the option to sync wallets with the BitDroid or BitClip

-*The BitWatch*: A MyBit hopefully compressed into the size of a watch

What this project needs:

-Programmers: It needs one or two other people working on it besides me
-A logo: The guy that makes the best logo will (subject to change) be given 0.5BTC (or equivalent at later trading rates)
-Donations: It costs a lot to hardware design, and I don't have much money, the address is in my signature
-Ideas: This is the most important part


Ok so here is the plan for development(all costs only represent hardware as of time of writing)
*note: this is just a guide, it is not a strict development model*



PRE-DEVELOPMENT -- A STRONG TEAM:
1 bitcoin client modification programmer []
1 Security tester guy []
1 aesthetics design guy []



PHASE 1 -- A STRONG BASE:
1. Outline required features of Hardware and Software (cost:0BTC) [0%]
2. Acquire hardware testbeds  (cost:~6-8BTC) [0%]
3. Build the base OS (cost:0BTC) [0%]
4. Build bug-tracing and other diagnostic features into OS (cost:0BTC) [0%]
5. Ensure base OS is hardware agnostic (cost:~0BTC) [0%]
6. Build and test driver/kernel level Internet lockout features (cost:~1-2BTC) [0%]
7. Ensure security of the base OS (cost:0BTC) [0%]
8. Ensure required functionality of the base OS



PHASE 2 -- A STRONG CLIENT:
1. Define functionality of custom client (cost:0BTC) [0%]
2. Modify base client to work perfectly on device hardware (cost:0BTC) [0%]
3. Modify base client for more fluid interface on device (cost:0BTC) [0%]
4. Add security features to client (cost:0BTC) [0%]
5. Add in functionality features (cost:0BTC) [0%]
6. Create secure API for all functions aside from transit of bitcoins (cost:0BTC) [0%]
7. Ensure security of custom client (cost:0BTC) [0%]
8. Ensure functionality of custom client (cost:0BTC) [0%]



PHASE 3 -- A STRONG CASE:
1. Define requirements of device production hardware (cost:0BTC) [0%]
2. Create standard and select parts required (cost:0BTC) [0%]
3. Acquire prototypes of production hardware (cost:~20BTC) [0%]
4. Ensure base OS works properly and securely on prototypes (cost:0BTC) [0%]
5. Ensure custom Client works properly and securely on prototypes (cost:0BTC) [0%]
6. Define physical requirements of device casing  (cost:0BTC) [0%]
7. Design and build device casing (cost:~10BTC) [0%]
8. Test device for ease of use and durability (cost:0BTC) [0%]
9. Test device for security (cost:0BTC) [0%]



PHASE 4 -- A STRONG FUTURE: (cost:0BTC) [0%]
1. Define where we think bitcoin is likely to go (cost:0BTC) [0%]
2. Define problems created by where we think bitcoin will go (cost:0BTC) [0%]
3. Create solutions to these problems (cost:0BTC) [0%]
4. Implement solutions in a practical and secure manner (cost:0BTC) [0%]
5. Ensure these changes are secure and do not impact reasonable ease of use (cost:0BTC) [0%]
6. Evaluate the situation as if we could never upgrade them (cost:0BTC) [0%]
7. Prepare a plan to upgrade the devices given a severe hit to the system (cost:0BTC) [0%]
8. Secure the devices with a special salt for extra security (cost:0BTC) [0%]



PHASE 0 -- A STRONG WEBSITE:
1. Acquire a website (cost:~2-3BTC) [0%]
2. Put stuff on it (cost:0BTC) [0%]

Please note, as I am doing this more as a hobby instead of a business venture, I am not offering chances to invest in it.
If you donate enough, I will be happy to customize your device, and/or provide you with one of the devices used in development.

[1714100894]

1714100894

[SgtSpike]

I know of many people in the past who have mentioned it would be a good idea to get dedicated hardware for running a bitcoin wallet.  Seems like an excellent idea to me as well.  I can't say that I'd buy one, but I might. 

[natman3400]

I know of many people in the past who have mentioned it would be a good idea to get dedicated hardware for running a bitcoin wallet.  Seems like an excellent idea to me as well.  I can't say that I'd buy one, but I might. 

Since Im working on opening an online computer store (that also deals in bitcoin), I just thought I would use my hardware design history, and my friends that do PCI DSS for a living, to produce one of these. It will take time though, as I am current working on procuring a microloan to get my computer store off the ground (my job leaves my with so little extra money, don't have enough to start a business)

[SgtSpike]

Do it!  Given the interest in other novelty projects for bitcoin-related items (bitcoins in resin, bitcoin rings, etc), I wouldn't be surprised to see people jump on something like this like a dog on a... hot dog.

Perhaps the most important item of business is a security audit of the distro used.  People would like assurances that nothing funny was going on in the code in the background.  Not sure how you would be able to provide such an assurance, but it's definitely something to consider.

Prosper.com is a great place to get a microloan too BTW.  Funding took about a week to reach my bank account after the loan was approved and fully funded.  I think it's a great project anyway...

[natman3400]

The distro would probably just consist of the Linux/BSD kernel, X,  and the bitcoin client (probably custom). What we could do to provide an audit is have someone (probably using bitcoins coming from me) use the device from home for a length of time, and monitor the content of every packet it sends. A specialized device wouldn't use much bandwidth.

[andes]

I have been thinking about the same idea since learning about bitcoins. Everybody talks about making a fresh os installation in a normal Notebook or PC to deal with bitcoins exclusively, which is a waste of resources in my opinion, and far from practical. A small portable cheap and secure dedicated hardware would be much better if done well.

[TraderTimm]

Perhaps some kind of embedded linux device. There are a few that are barely bigger than their RJ-45 network ports. The only thing to consider would be the amount of storage, and how to access it via TightVNC or SSH.

http://axiomtek.com/products/ListProduct.asp?ptype1=202&ptype2=205&ptype3=183

Older list of devices here, but some should still be around:

http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/Linux-For-Devices-Articles/Teeny-weeny-Linux-SBCs/

Just need a good enclosure and you'd have a close-to-pocket-size dedicated wallet!

[natman3400]

I have been thinking about the same idea since learning about bitcoins. Everybody talks about having a dedicated Notebook or PC to deal with bitcoins, which is a waste of resources in my opinion. A small portable cheap and secure dedicated hardware would be excelent if done well.

This some how sparked an idea in my head. What if you compressed a wallet into under 64kB and put it on an iButton (http://www.maxim-ic.com/products/ibutton/ibuttons/memoryoverview.cfm), you could feasibly create a secure storage method for moving bitcoins from device to device that would be either one or many use depending on which type of iButton you use. And, if I could come up with a way to make sure the iButton was securely wiped upon reading...

Another thing is, what if a family buys one as a "family wallet" and wants everyone to have access to the main wallet, while also having wallets on there own also accessible on the device? If this happens, would I set it up at the factory to do this, or have some secure way to do this automatically (maybe a non-portable version of the device designed for this?)?

Perhaps some kind of embedded linux device. There are a few that are barely bigger than their RJ-45 network ports. The only thing to consider would be the amount of storage, and how to access it via TightVNC or SSH.

http://axiomtek.com/products/ListProduct.asp?ptype1=202&ptype2=205&ptype3=183

Older list of devices here, but some should still be around:

http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/Linux-For-Devices-Articles/Teeny-weeny-Linux-SBCs/

Just need a good enclosure and you'd have a close-to-pocket-size dedicated wallet!

What I said would be to create a portable Linux/BSD based device with the hell striped out of it, and lock out any chance of using it for anything but bitcoin. And I actually have experience with embedded ARM systems Ive never made a full one, complete with enclosure, but I have made little dinky shells with not much more then the linux kernel on them.

[andes]

In my imagination, I was whinking in a very compact, lightwheight, and simple device that would look like this:


Would allow you to have a simple contacts/address list, and to send and receive coins, with a custom designed bitcoin client. Maybe adding a calculator, currency converter, and some backup functionality, but nothing fancier.

I imagine someone like Casio selling them cheaply by the millions in the future.

[natman3400]

In my imagination, I was whinking in a very compact, lightwheight, and simple device that would look like this:


Would allow you to have a simple contacts/address list, and to send and receive coins, with a custom designed bitcoin client. Maybe adding a calculator, currency converter, and some backup functionality, but nothing fancier.

I imagine someone like Casio selling them cheaply by the millions in the future.

I was thinking looking more like a steel box the size of an iphone with a touch screen.
I am already inquiring into getting engineering samples for the required parts and getting a prototype board etched.
It would help ALOT if you would donate to the address in my signature, as not all these parts can be gotten with engendering samples (at least to my ability)(the ARM processor I have selected is a good $30 a pop, which I dont have right now, unless you buy in bulk).

And yes, It would have a custom designed bitcoin client. As the device would be forced to only be able to connect to a pre-defined list of nodes (hosted by me?) (to make it really hard to get anything out of it), I might have to host an api for anything that can't be done off-line (aside from the sending/receiving of bitcoins, and possible the scanning of QR codes).

[natman3400]

As for backing up, I was considering designing a failsafe that, when given a random keyphrase shipped with the device, would wipe the device (presumably to be shipped back to me to be repaired). Maybe this failsafe keyphrase could also be used to encrypt a small usb key or other stored within the device's case that contains a backup of the wallet. I was also thinking that the back of the case could be welded on with steel struts with a tamper-evident code stamped into them that would allow the device to be opened for repair, but would make it obvious that it was tampered with.
I am now fully convinced into doing this, but what to call it?

[andes]

Regarding the touchscreen, I think thats the wrong way to go. In my mind, this device should be the simplest possible design. Using a touchscreen would be like trying to compete with phones, why? You will only consume more power without any added funcionality. The wallet only needs an alphanumeric display, hopefully a very low consumption lcd, not a graphics display.

In my mind, a wallet should not be fancy, but simple, secure, and hopefully zero defect design. The less variables you introduce, the easier to reach that objective. I really think of Casio as my business model. They sell calculators and watches that have zero programming defects. In the last 20 years they sell basically the same thing, and it works. Why? Beacuse they do what they promise. Allways. And they are cheap, consume little power, are durable, and so on.

A wallet should also have the same paradigm. The funcionality is well known, the bitcoin protocoll should be more or less the same, it will not change much over the years.

To me this is a totally opposite business model as phones. The less fancy complexity, the better. You should make a strong, very strong statement as to being different from phones and computers. Why? Beacuse phones and computers already run bitcoin, and they are expensive and not secure. The less things in common you have with phones and computers, the easier to create a market for the product.

What you want to communicate is inexpensive simplicity, reliablity, and security. A casio Bitcoin Wallet.

I am not a developer nor a designer, but If I were developing the device, I would spend most of my time thinking of how to remove functionality and complexity from my device (casio model), as opposed to how to add funcionality and complexity (the phone bussiness model).

[SgtSpike]

Regarding the touchscreen, I think thats the wrong way to go. In my mind, this device should be the simplest possible design. Using a touchscreen would be like trying to compete with phones, why? You will only consume more power without any added funcionality. The wallet only needs an alphanumeric display, hopefully a very low consumption lcd, not a graphics display.

In my mind, a wallet should not be fancy, but simple, secure, and hopefully zero defect design. The less variables you introduce, the easier to reach that objective. I really think of Casio as my business model. They sell calculators and watches that have zero programming defects. In the last 20 years they sell basically the same thing, and it works. Why? Beacuse they do what they promise. Allways. And they are cheap, consume little power, are durable, and so on.

A wallet should also have the same paradigm. The funcionality is well known, the bitcoin protocoll should be more or less the same, it will not change much over the years.

To me this is a totally opposite business model as phones. The less fancy complexity, the better. You should make a strong, very strong statement as to being different from phones and computers. Why? Beacuse phones and computers allready run bitcoin, and they are expensive and not secure. The less things in common you have with phones and computers, the easier to create a market for the product.

What you want to communicate is inexpensive simplicity, reliablity, and security. A casio Bitcoin Wallet.

I am not a developer nor a designer, but If I were developing the device, I would spend most of my time thinking of how to remove functionality and complexity from my device (casio model), as opposed to how to add funcionality and complexity (the phone bussiness model).

Completely agree.  There is no need for a touchscreen, and I think it would actually be an annoyance more than a benefit.  I would much rather "type" on a device with physical keys, even if it means a smaller screen.  At least when it comes to a physical bitcoin wallet, that is.

[natman3400]

Regarding the touchscreen, I think thats the wrong way to go. In my mind, this device should be the simplest possible design. Using a touchscreen would be like trying to compete with phones, why? You will only consume more power without any added funcionality. The wallet only needs an alphanumeric display, hopefully a very low consumption lcd, not a graphics display.

In my mind, a wallet should not be fancy, but simple, secure, and hopefully zero defect design. The less variables you introduce, the easier to reach that objective. I really think of Casio as my business model. They sell calculators and watches that have zero programming defects. In the last 20 years they sell basically the same thing, and it works. Why? Beacuse they do what they promise. Allways. And they are cheap, consume little power, are durable, and so on.

A wallet should also have the same paradigm. The funcionality is well known, the bitcoin protocoll should be more or less the same, it will not change much over the years.

To me this is a totally opposite business model as phones. The less fancy complexity, the better. You should make a strong, very strong statement as to being different from phones and computers. Why? Beacuse phones and computers allready run bitcoin, and they are expensive and not secure. The less things in common you have with phones and computers, the easier to create a market for the product.

What you want to communicate is inexpensive simplicity, reliablity, and security. A casio Bitcoin Wallet.

I am not a developer nor a designer, but If I were developing the device, I would spend most of my time thinking of how to remove functionality and complexity from my device (casio model), as opposed to how to add funcionality and complexity (the phone bussiness model).

I agree with you there on that the less fancy the better, but there needs to be a certain level of usability in order of it to be viable. I could of corse, make all features optional, and like I've said before, I'm going to be building a distro from the kernel up, so there is not much worry as to reduced functionality. If there is significant demand for an extremely reduced design, then Ill produce one. And the point of the ouch screen is because I can get one on the cheap, and it provides a more natural interface then using everything with you keyboard. Im estimating a total cost of the prototype to be around $100-200, but the actual production cost could be as low as $50-75 and I would be using an E-paper monochrome display with a resistive touch screen slapped on, which uses an extremely small amount of power.

Im thinking of calling it the Bit-It (a combination  of bitcoin and wallet), but im not the best with names.

[RodeoX]

I would buy one right now for 3BTC if it was available.

[Nesetalis]

just my 0.02BTC but name wise... bitclip, like a billclip?

[natman3400]

BitClip sounds good.
I am considering selling 3 different products to suit different needs.
1.Basic Casio BitClip - cheapest-shitty interface-hard to use-dirt cheap, probably $40-75
2.Mid Range BitClip - Small touch screen and a keypad, natural interface, not much going beyond that, probably $75-125
3.BitClip family - deluxe model for supreme bitcoin management. psp size/resolution touch screen, really easy to use, powerful, probably $100-200
thoughts?

[Rassah]

Um, already in development (though just started)

http://groups.google.com/group/bitcoincard

[TraderTimm]

I haven't used these guys personally, but perhaps some external casing could be produced by this 3D printing outfit?

http://www.shapeways.com/materials/material-options

The maximum dimensions for something pretty strong is like 40 x 10 inches, more than enough. If you already have access to some kind of CNC prototyping, never mind. Just thought I'd mention it.

[natman3400]

Um, already in development (though just started)

http://groups.google.com/group/bitcoincard

Didn't read it fully, but it sounds a lot like non-physical bitbills.
Mine would be a full-fledged portable client capable to connecting to wifi.

[Rassah]

Um, already in development (though just started)

http://groups.google.com/group/bitcoincard

Didn't read it fully, but it sounds a lot like non-physical bitbills.
Mine would be a full-fledged portable client capable to connecting to wifi.

Ah. I see. These guys are working on a smart card, possibly with a keypad and display, that would securely run bitcoin with an encrypted wallet right on the card. They want to have it work like a credit card that can store your bitcoin more securely than a PC, and still be used at point of sale systems through smart card readers and custom software.

[natman3400]

Um, already in development (though just started)

http://groups.google.com/group/bitcoincard

Didn't read it fully, but it sounds a lot like non-physical bitbills.
Mine would be a full-fledged portable client capable to connecting to wifi.

Ah. I see. These guys are working on a smart card, possibly with a keypad and display, that would securely run bitcoin with an encrypted wallet right on the card. They want to have it work like a credit card that can store your bitcoin more securely than a PC, and still be used at point of sale systems through smart card readers and custom software.

What I am working on is essentially an extremely striped down phone that actually runs the client that would esentially do the same thing, but give you the full convenience of the bitcoin client, and a qr code scanner (optional). It would also only be capable of running customized bitcoin, to prevent trojans from being able to steal your wallet.

I have access to a CNC service.

And just throwing it out there for a 4th, but maybe a dual-chipset android phone that you can switch between android and BitClipOS with a physical switch?

[Rassah]

I would LOVE for at least a WORKING Android app before a cheap BitClip, though a BitClip device would definitely help in poorer countries.

[natman3400]

I would LOVE for at least a WORKING Android app before a cheap BitClip, though a BitClip device would definitely help in poorer countries.

It wouldn't be an android app, It would be an Android phone that used the bitclip secure hardware, but allowed you to switch between the android OS and the BitClipOS. If it was running in android, you lose the security of the trojan not being able to either get in, or (even if it got in), get anything out. I would be happy to port the custom client we come up with to android, but I'm warning you, your gonna lose the security.
Also, another idea would be a tablet that does the same, play angry birds HD (or w.e), want coffee, flip switch, pay for coffee, flip switch again, resume angry birds.

[Anonymous]

+1 if you can wear it like a watch...

[Ryland R. Taylor-Almanza]

natman, please do this! I've wanted something like this for so long! The second it comes out, I'm buying the expensive one!

[natman3400]

Updated the OP, and I might make it so that anyone that donates a significant amount will get a fancy case on there MyCoin/BitClip/BitDroid (possibly stainless steel or other etched with a really cool design?)

[natman3400]

+1 if you can wear it like a watch...

This would be kind of hard to do, but ill look into it.
Even though there have been homebrew micro-controller watches I can copy off of, remember Ive gotta get wifi in there.

[natman3400]

I have just requested samples on the parts I think Im going to use in the MyBit.
I anyone wants to program for me (only the client though, I want to keep the OS under my hands), just shoot me a pm and Ill tell you what I need to be in the MyBit Client. (Also, anyone that I select for Programming counts as a donator in terms of getting a custom case).

[natman3400]

Ok so here is the plan for development(all costs only represent hardware as of time of writing)
*note: this is just a guide, it is not a strict development model*

PHASE 1 -- A STRONG BASE: [0%]
1. Outline required features of Hardware and Software (cost:0BTC) [0%]
2. Acquire hardware testbeds  (cost:~6-8BTC) [0%]
3. Build the base OS (cost:0BTC) [0%]
4. Build bug-tracing and other diagnostic features into OS (cost:0BTC) [0%]
5. Ensure base OS is hardware agnostic (cost:~0BTC) [0%]
6. Build and test driver/kernel level Internet lockout features (cost:~1-2BTC) [0%]
7. Ensure security of the base OS (cost:0BTC) [0%]
8. Ensure required functionality of the base OS



PHASE 2 -- A STRONG CLIENT:
1. Define functionality of custom client (cost:0BTC) [0%]
2. Modify base client to work perfectly on device hardware (cost:0BTC) [0%]
3. Modify base client for more fluid interface on device (cost:0BTC) [0%]
4. Add security features to client (cost:0BTC) [0%]
5. Add in functionality features (cost:0BTC) [0%]
6. Create secure API for all functions aside from transit of bitcoins (cost:0BTC) [0%]
7. Ensure security of custom client (cost:0BTC) [0%]
8. Ensure functionality of custom client (cost:0BTC) [0%]



PHASE 3 -- A STRONG CASE:
1. Define requirements of device production hardware (cost:0BTC) [0%]
2. Create standard and select parts required (cost:0BTC) [0%]
3. Acquire prototypes of production hardware (cost:~20BTC) [0%]
4. Ensure base OS works properly and securely on prototypes (cost:0BTC) [0%]
5. Ensure custom Client works properly and securely on prototypes (cost:0BTC) [0%]
6. Define physical requirements of device casing  (cost:0BTC) [0%]
7. Design and build device casing (cost:~10BTC) [0%]
8. Test device for ease of use and durability (cost:0BTC) [0%]
9. Test device for security (cost:0BTC) [0%]



PHASE 4 -- A STRONG FUTURE: (cost:0BTC) [0%]
1. Define where we think bitcoin is likely to go (cost:0BTC) [0%]
2. Define problems created by where we think bitcoin will go (cost:0BTC) [0%]
3. Create solutions to these problems (cost:0BTC) [0%]
4. Implement solutions in a practical and secure manner (cost:0BTC) [0%]
5. Ensure these changes are secure and do not impact reasonable ease of use (cost:0BTC) [0%]
6. Evaluate the situation as if we could never upgrade them (cost:0BTC) [0%]
7. Prepare a plan to upgrade the devices given a severe hit to the system (cost:0BTC) [0%]
8. Secure the devices with a special salt for extra security (cost:0BTC) [0%]



PHASE 0 -- A STRONG WEBSITE:
1. Acquire a website (cost:~2-3BTC) [0%]
2. Put stuff on it (cost:0BTC) [0%]

Edit: Also added this to the OP

[rebuilder]

If you find yourself in need of plastic prototypes, I may be able to help. I have a Makerbot, an extruder-type 3d printer.

[natman3400]

If you find yourself in need of plastic prototypes, I may be able to help. I have a Makerbot, an extruder-type 3d printer.

I was thinking that the cases (at least for anything above the myBit) should be made of metal, as so you can't cut into it easily.
However, I would say that the most important thing right now would be to acquire web hosting so I can better organize the project. Anyone that donates greater the 0.75BTC will receive a custom case on all products they order upon request (such as name in raised metal on the case, or powder coating).
Cost of hosting for a year: 4BTC
What I have in my wallet: 0.1BTC

[RodeoX]

Are you looking for venture capital? I might invest some dollars or BTC into such an idea.
 I looked into the smart card that is in development, but I like your device better. It is way more versatile.

[natman3400]

Are you looking for venture capital? I might invest some dollars or BTC into such an idea.
 I looked into the smart card that is in development, but I like your device better. It is way more versatile.

I would rater go the donation route due to the fact that I may hand off the project to someone else with more experience.
If you would like, I could make the amount you donate worth a discount on the final product(s) you wish to buy.
If you don't want to go any other way, as I have no real financial experience, all I can do is promise you Ill try to give you a set return.
Also thanks for liking my idea. 

[RodeoX]

Are you looking for venture capital? I might invest some dollars or BTC into such an idea.
 I looked into the smart card that is in development, but I like your device better. It is way more versatile.

I would rater go the donation route due to the fact that I may hand off the project to someone else with more experience.
If you would like, I could make the amount you donate worth a discount on the final product(s) you wish to buy.
If you don't want to go any other way, as I have no real financial experience, all I can do is promise you Ill try to give you a set return.

cool. Well you can count on me for your first sale. No need for any discount. Hell I'd buy a buggy, overpriced prototype just to support the idea.
P.S. i sent you a PM

[natman3400]

Now all I need is a few other programmers and we can get started.

[Serge]

I would like to point out that in case of hardware failure wallet.dat ideally needs to be stored on some kind removable storage media OR at least caring a copy of wallet from computer. This way bitcoins could be easily recovered if anything happens to the device.

[natman3400]

I would like to point out that in case of hardware failure wallet.dat ideally needs to be stored on some kind removable storage media OR at least caring a copy of wallet from computer. This way bitcoins could be easily recovered if anything happens to the device.

I agree, I'm working on a way for this to be done securely, I think I might go about the way I had previously mentioned and include a usb key inside the case of the device that is encrypted with the code shipped with the device that would allow you to back up wallets to it if you had the code to the device. Another way to do it would be only to back up the main wallet, or to do a Little tiny raid with microSD cards. This will be further addressed in phase 2.

[Rassah]

I would like to point out that in case of hardware failure wallet.dat ideally needs to be stored on some kind removable storage media OR at least caring a copy of wallet from computer. This way bitcoins could be easily recovered if anything happens to the device.

I agree, I'm working on a way for this to be done securely, I think I might go about the way I had previously mentioned and include a usb key inside the case of the device that is encrypted with the code shipped with the device that would allow you to back up wallets to it if you had the code to the device. Another way to do it would be only to back up the main wallet, or to do a Little tiny raid with microSD cards. This will be further addressed in phase 2.

What was the problem of simply backing up an encrypted password-protected version of the wallet file on a home computer?

BTW, slap an Apple logo on the case, and it'll sell like hotcakes. Just have to sell it outside US/EU

[Serge]

I would like to point out that in case of hardware failure wallet.dat ideally needs to be stored on some kind removable storage media OR at least caring a copy of wallet from computer. This way bitcoins could be easily recovered if anything happens to the device.

I agree, I'm working on a way for this to be done securely, I think I might go about the way I had previously mentioned and include a usb key inside the case of the device that is encrypted with the code shipped with the device that would allow you to back up wallets to it if you had the code to the device. Another way to do it would be only to back up the main wallet, or to do a Little tiny raid with microSD cards. This will be further addressed in phase 2.

What was the problem of simply backing up an encrypted password-protected version of the wallet file on a home computer?

BTW, slap an Apple logo on the case, and it'll sell like hotcakes. Just have to sell it outside US/EU

No problem if such device can connect and talk with computer

[natman3400]

I would like to point out that in case of hardware failure wallet.dat ideally needs to be stored on some kind removable storage media OR at least caring a copy of wallet from computer. This way bitcoins could be easily recovered if anything happens to the device.

I agree, I'm working on a way for this to be done securely, I think I might go about the way I had previously mentioned and include a usb key inside the case of the device that is encrypted with the code shipped with the device that would allow you to back up wallets to it if you had the code to the device. Another way to do it would be only to back up the main wallet, or to do a Little tiny raid with microSD cards. This will be further addressed in phase 2.

What was the problem of simply backing up an encrypted password-protected version of the wallet file on a home computer?

BTW, slap an Apple logo on the case, and it'll sell like hotcakes. Just have to sell it outside US/EU

No problem if such device can connect and talk with computer

This is the actual problem here. If you give it the ability to connect to the computer, you lose security.
Just a small software raid across microSD cards should work. Maybe I could find a way to make a specialized backup chip that only has power applied while in use, and do a software raid 1 (or which ever is the mirroring one) across those.
Another thing would be to give it the ability to back up and encrypt an image of its own drive to a microSD card. I would still have to set it up to require the random key embedded into the hardware of each device.

[Havoc]

Not ready to donate, but I would make a down payment on a pre-order if the project reaches that phase. I suggest starting with the simplest possible model.

[Anonymous]

I see no justification for all these models. There are no marketing statistics nor any marks of viability. I wouldn't invest a penny into this.

[natman3400]

Not ready to donate, but I would make a down payment on a pre-order if the project reaches that phase. I suggest starting with the simplest possible model.

If you noticed the part in phase 3 about how the core parts of it would be hardware agnostic.
The way I would go about it would be to select a chip series, and then to develop the software on a devel board from that series, and then create the hardware and tune it to the hardware. This is what we're probably going to do. There is, in fact, a cheap (in comparison to multi-thousand dollar eval boards) devel board for the chip series I have chosen.

I see no justification for all these models. There are no marketing statistics nor any marks of viability. I wouldn't invest a penny into this.

The models are just my guess on the range of products I would offer. Im really doing this as a hobby, not as a business venture. Each one would probably be built after the order (of course keeping a decent amount of the core parts around and offering a discount when I would have to delay).
If you don't want to invest, fine, don't. If you want to go in and look at market statistics for me, I welcome you to the project, but for now, Its just a hobby of mine. All the different models are just concepts. I'm probably just going to end having the casio style MyBit, and the standard BitClip, with customization options to bridge the gap between them. Some people prefer the no-frill interface of a fancy calculator, I for one prefer a simple touch interface on such devices. At the very least, I want a keypad and joystick-y-thingy. The point of multiple models is to give the people that don't want to put much into it a low end option, and the people that are willing to pay a premium a nicer, easier to use interface. Hell, I might even pop them all into the same case and just give a choice of interface options shoved into that case.

[natman3400]

I just want to clarify that I am not offering investment opportunities in this, if you donate enough, I will be glad to provide you with one of the test models or late prototypes. And a fancy case on any you actually buy.

[Bitcoin Swami]

If you find yourself in need of plastic prototypes, I may be able to help. I have a Makerbot, an extruder-type 3d printer.

You have a 3d printer! awesome always wanted one.

[natman3400]

If you find yourself in need of plastic prototypes, I may be able to help. I have a Makerbot, an extruder-type 3d printer.

How expensive would it be to print the parts for a rep rap?
And these are the people I need (just pm me if you want to help out):
1 bitcoin client modification programmer []
1 Security tester guy []
1 aesthetics design guy []

[Trader Steve]

The beauty of the Free (bitcoin) Market...it's great to see these new ideas being discussed!

[Meatpile]

3d printers are indeed cool. I have the makerbot, however a fair warning: you NEED the heated build platform or else its basically worthless. You can't print larger than like 20mm even though they originally told you, "you can print 100mm"

[natman3400]

3d printers are indeed cool. I have the makerbot, however a fair warning: you NEED the heated build platform or else its basically worthless. You can't print larger than like 20mm even though they originally told you, "you can print 100mm"

Well that ruins my ability to rapidly prototype cases.

[natman3400]

Updated the op and changed the title to something that sounds better.

[done]

Get to work 

[natman3400]

Get to work 

After I get my pay on Monday Ill open up a website for the project, but Im not going to go much farther with out other people to check me and make sure I don't make any huge mistakes. I plan to make the software on the devices open source, but with a secret salt or other thrown in on the ones I sell to enhance security.

[natman3400]

Updated the op with a project funding thing-y and more donation information.

[natman3400]

Updated the op with the new donation address

[natman3400]

I just decided to put what I think this project should do into a little statement:

The purpose of bitclip is to provide secure and easy ways for end users to use bitcoin in conditions such as POS, without excessive risk, involvement, or technical knowledge. BitClip intents to do that by providing cheap devices that would be able to connect to wifi or  other networks, while still being able to provide security and simplicity.

Also iv'e got some sketches for what the devices/device clients look like in my mind coming up soon. I'm not the best at drawing, but they will convey the idea. Still looking for other people to help me do this.

[kjj]

1 ascetics design guy []

This word.  It does not mean what you think it means.  At least I hope it doesn't.

Also, check out RockBox.

[natman3400]

1 ascetics design guy []

This word.  It does not mean what you think it means.  At least I hope it doesn't.

Also, check out RockBox.

I've always been bad at spelling, spell check musta got me, i meant aesthetics.
And how would an open source jukebox firmware help me?
Edit: Fixed

[ben-abuya]

Kudos on the initiative. I think this is probably the most important bitcoin concept as far as gaining mainstream users. Imagine selling these at walmarts and supermarkets and Best Buys. It's impossible to secure the average joe's computer, so the bitcoin client running on a desktop or laptop will never be safe without something like this, but pick one of these up and you have a stupid-proof secure bitcoin device.

And how would an open source jukebox firmware help me?

The RockBox stuff would let you use one of the inexpensive $25 mp3 players as a platform. They already have displays and input interfaces. For the production version maybe you could get a chinese plant to rebrand an mp3 player.

If you want to build from the ground up, might be worth looking into a crypto chip like this:

http://www.maxim-ic.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/7277

It has built-in hardware ECDSA, which is what bitcoin uses to sign transactions, it has a true random number generator, and it's designed to be secure. If you can do this with a crypto chip, a cheap microprocessor and interface with a mobile phone or computer via bluetooth for an easier GUI, you might be able to get this really cheap and super secure.

[natman3400]

Kudos on the initiative. I think this is probably the most important bitcoin concept as far as gaining mainstream users. Imagine selling these at walmarts and supermarkets and Best Buys. It's impossible to secure the average joe's computer, so the bitcoin client running on a desktop or laptop will never be safe without something like this, but pick one of these up and you have a stupid-proof secure bitcoin device.

And how would an open source jukebox firmware help me?

The RockBox stuff would let you use one of the inexpensive $25 mp3 players as a platform. They already have displays and input interfaces. For the production version maybe you could get a chinese plant to rebrand an mp3 player.

If you want to build from the ground up, might be worth looking into a crypto chip like this:

http://www.maxim-ic.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/7277

It has built-in hardware ECDSA, which is what bitcoin uses to sign transactions, it has a true random number generator, and it's designed to be secure. If you can do this with a crypto chip, a cheap microprocessor and interface with a mobile phone or computer via bluetooth for an easier GUI, you might be able to get this really cheap and super secure.

I'm kinda looking into building from the ground up, the end device will cost a bit more, but that way nobody will be able to drop in and steal your bitcoins jut by plugging something into your device. The arm processor I have selected has a cryptography module in it, so I don't think a chip will be needed.
I was thinking about mainstream users when I though of this. If we can make a $25-$50 device (with a $50-$75 one with an easier interface, for the extremely not technically inclined (a.k.a. they think a *nix is a type of windows)), and make it locked down before it ever gets to them, there is no way they are going to mess it up.

[natman3400]

If you want to build from the ground up, might be worth looking into a crypto chip like this:

http://www.maxim-ic.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/7277

It has built-in hardware ECDSA, which is what bitcoin uses to sign transactions, it has a true random number generator, and it's designed to be secure. If you can do this with a crypto chip, a cheap microprocessor and interface with a mobile phone or computer via bluetooth for an easier GUI, you might be able to get this really cheap and super secure.

The big problem with this is, it is not an arm micro-controller. If I want to port bitcoin to arm, all i have to do is open up linux in an ARM virtual machine and compile it. This would take a lot more.

[ben-abuya]

If you want to build from the ground up, might be worth looking into a crypto chip like this:

http://www.maxim-ic.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/7277

It has built-in hardware ECDSA, which is what bitcoin uses to sign transactions, it has a true random number generator, and it's designed to be secure. If you can do this with a crypto chip, a cheap microprocessor and interface with a mobile phone or computer via bluetooth for an easier GUI, you might be able to get this really cheap and super secure.

The big problem with this is, it is not an arm micro-controller. If I want to port bitcoin to arm, all i have to do is open up linux in an ARM virtual machine and compile it. This would take a lot more.

That's true, you can't run bitcoin on that crypto processor, it's only good for storing, generating and signing. But it appears to be very secure. If you don't use it, you'll have to make sure that you have a good source of random bits. Another question is how much you want this device to do. It could just securely verify, hash and sign transactions that are handed to it, meaning it won't have to run the full bitcoin client, or it could do everything, which means it would need to connect to the internet and require a serious user interface. That would make it a lot more of a challenge to lock down and probably raise the price quite a bit.

[natman3400]

Its going to run a full custom client. Its still really easy to lock everything out but the list of approved nodes if we use an inclusive method.

[natman3400]

And as for the good source of random numbers, I'm sure we will come up with something if we need it.
Again, I'm not going very far beyond where I currently am on this until more people join.

[natman3400]

As it appears that no one wants to help make these, I'm going to change the way I go about this.
What I am going to do is to take the project entirely into my hands.
However, I will host a talk on the new BitClip Freenode IRC channel: #bitclip weekly (or close to) about what is going on in the development of these devices.
The rest of this post will now consist of the formal announcement of the First BitClip IRC Congress.
First BitClip IRC Congress:
Topics of discussion:
- How to go about BitClips
- Official BitClip IRC congress protocol
- Formation of goals of BitClip
- Project funding

How to be in this Congress:
-Be on #bitclip on freenode at 5PM EST, Friday July 8th 2011

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

Such a device would be great. Count me as a potential client!

A few suggestions:

• I think you should go for a light-weight client, not a full one.
• Instead of having a whitelist of bitcoin nodes to connect to, why not connect to any node but behind an anonymisation proxy?

[natman3400]

Such a device would be great. Count me as a potential client!

A few suggestions:

• I think you should go for a light-weight client, not a full one.
• Instead of having a whitelist of bitcoin nodes to connect to, why not connect to any node but behind an anonymisation proxy?

Firstly, the plan on having two models solves this, and it would be easy to just make multiple versions of the OS/Client combo and just ask them which one they want. And another way to go about the problem of possible network attacks against the device would be to have it locked into a VPN, and have the user choose encrypted or unencrypted (for auditing reasons), and have a dynamic list of white-listed nodes (anything that is not know to associate with anything bad, so pretty much all of them).
We will cross that bridge when we come to it (which will probably be the first thing after making the actual OS).
Also, updated the title.

[kjj]

As it appears that no one wants to help make these, I'm going to change the way I go about this.
What I am going to do is to take the project entirely into my hands.
However, I will host a talk on the new BitClip Freenode IRC channel: #bitclip weekly (or close to) about what is going on in the development of these devices.
The rest of this post will now consist of the formal announcement of the First BitClip IRC Congress.
First BitClip IRC Congress:
Topics of discussion:
- How to go about BitClips
- Official BitClip IRC congress protocol
- Formation of goals of BitClip

How to be in this Congress:
-Be on #bitclip on freenode at 5PM EST, Friday June 8th 2011

Pretty sure you mean July.

[natman3400]

Pretty sure you mean July.

Herp Derp. That was my bad there, wasn't thinking straight.

[natman3400]

Also, added one more thing to the announcement.

[natman3400]

Anybody got any ideas about how I should go about the IRC congress?

[natman3400]

The first official BitClip IRC congress is in session at #bitclip on freenode
Get in now!

[RandyMarsh]

For Prototyping models use www.shapeways.com, you'll have access to pretty much any materials you might be considering and any prototyping methods. Its great value.

Also would these devices be just for storing wallets? or would they be capable of sending and receiving payments too? if so, how would one input an address? manually?

[natman3400]

Also would these devices be just for storing wallets? or would they be capable of sending and receiving payments too? if so, how would one input an address? manually?

No, yes, and either manually, with a qrcode, or possibly first bit.
If you want to join the IRC and discuss this, but don't have an irc client:
http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#bitclip

[natman3400]

In an effort to support the project, and to get some good concept designs going, I am starting a contest for the best concept drawings for both the device and the GUI! (note all fees go to project support)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



The rules are as follows:
- - Concept must be feasible to make
- - No obscene material
- - Design must be easy to use
- - Design must not be exceedingly intricate
- - Everything I say on the matter of the contest is final

Entry categories and fees are as follows (all fees subject to change):
- - Device body concept (0.05 BTC entrance fee)
- - Device GUI concept (0.05 BTC Entrance fee)
- - BitClip Logo (0.05 BTC Entrance fee)

How to enter:
- - Send me a PM saying you would like to enter
- - Tell me what category you would like to enter
- - I will provide you with a bitcoin address to send your fee to
- - Send me the bitcoins and the drawings

How the winner will be selected:
- - I will choose some finalists form each category
- - We will vote on the winner

What the winner will get:
- - There design produced
- - Fifty (50) percent of the bitcoins from entrance fees

All entrance fees are half of what is displayed until Friday, July 22nd 2011
Cutoff for entries is Sunday, July 31st 2011
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[natman3400]

Note: Cut of for entries on the concept design contest is 7-30-11. Thank you

[natman3400]

Morning update:
I am compiling an exact list of parts I think I am going to need to buy, that would allow me use what ever final form factor I please.

[jaakkop]

Great project idea, I'm supporting this

I was thinking for as a security measure if the password is typed wrong many times, the device would lock itself and transfer all the bitcoins to a certain pre-defined address, which is configured in the device.

Just a thought.

[natman3400]

Great project idea, I'm supporting this

I was thinking for as a security measure if the password is typed wrong many times, the device would lock itself and transfer all the bitcoins to a certain pre-defined address, which is configured in the device.

Just a thought.

I was thinking that I could provide multiple OSs for the devices, and you just choose which one you want on it based on your needs. This could defiantly be an option in one of the higher security OSs. I defiantly plan to do find some way to make the device do this upon opening the case, maybe include a bank card with the device that contains such data as the private key its sent to, the unique device identifier, and other things needed for device recovery and security functions. And does anyone know of any flash storage solution that has something along the lines of SMART monitoring? I would love to do a software raid across two of them, and have this as a failsafe should one of them fail, or become near failing.

[natman3400]

I've started to assemble a nice pile of parts for this project. I'm still waiting to hear back form most of the suppliers i have curreently chosen for samples.

[natman3400]

Changed rules of contest, added pgp public key to my signature, signing all future updates.

[natman3400]

Nobody have anything to say on the matter?

[natman3400]

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Hash: SHA1

I made a new address for donating to webhosting: 14zWdasvZxtbBwD7jeo56EJ46NyWZRbkDS
All donations that go to that address will go directly into the fund i will use to pay for webhosting.
I also updated the tile
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[natman3400]

*not doing what was in this post this anymore*

[natman3400]

What, nobody have any comments on the earth basking in the light of the bit-sun?

[natman3400]

Sorry for having to churn up this old thread, but I haven't had much spare time lately.
Ive got a couple concept drawings, and and idea for something to go along with the hardware/software to make POS bitcoin transfers even easier. Im scanning in the concepts now.

[natman3400]

Alright, here are my concepts for the device and a part of the gui (I like fold-out style menus).

[SgtSpike]

*not doing this anymore*

What does this mean?  You're done with the project?  Obviously not, or you wouldn't still be posting here...

Concept looks like a gameboy.    And don't you need a full alphanumeric keyboard for typing out bitcoin addresses?  Going with just a number pad is a terrible idea - trying to accurately type in a full bitcoin address by pressing each key a certain number of times in a row to get the letter/number you want in the right capitalization you want sounds like a recipe for frustration and disaster.

[natman3400]

Fixed that.
Also, there concepts. Not the final word. I would also think that just a numpad would be bad. I might see about getting a base58 keypad made or other. I was thinking we could put a camera in the back that was perma-focused at about 5 inches for scanning qr-codes (maybe even upload images for some sort of OCR? Probably not, but its an idea. I actually based the design off a blockified blackberry, reduced to a numpad and with a d-pad instead of a trackpad. I've personally seen some people type pretty fast and accurate with a numpad though, i've even seen computer keyboards that were just a numpad.

[SgtSpike]

Fixed that.
Also, there concepts. Not the final word. I would also think that just a numpad would be bad. I might see about getting a base58 keypad made or other. I was thinking we could put a camera in the back that was perma-focused at about 5 inches for scanning qr-codes (maybe even upload images for some sort of OCR? Probably not, but its an idea. I actually based the design off a blockified blackberry, reduced to a numpad and with a d-pad instead of a trackpad. I've personally seen some people type pretty fast and accurate with a numpad though, i've even seen computer keyboards that were just a numpad.

Don't have a custom base58 keyboard made.  Non-standard components will just make it more expensive.  Find an existing qwerty keyboard in the size you want, and figure out how to integrate it into the device.

A camera is an excellent idea, and I would say it's almost necessary.  Can you imagine waiting in line at a retailer while you wait for the person in front of you to painstakingly input all 34 characters of a bitcoin address, only for the checksum to not match and they have to do it all over again?  I would become rather agitated.  I wouldn't set the focus at a permanent 5" though.  Some QR codes will be much bigger than could be scanned from just 5" away (example: Meze Grill).  The camera would need to have an autofocus mechanism.

I would not buy or be interested in a device with just a numpad for input.  I absolutely abhor phones that are that way, even though I became pretty quick at entering in that method myself.  It's just plain obnoxious to type on one - enough to the point where I won't even consider purchasing a device that only has that method of data entry.

[natman3400]

Fixed that.
Also, there concepts. Not the final word. I would also think that just a numpad would be bad. I might see about getting a base58 keypad made or other. I was thinking we could put a camera in the back that was perma-focused at about 5 inches for scanning qr-codes (maybe even upload images for some sort of OCR? Probably not, but its an idea. I actually based the design off a blockified blackberry, reduced to a numpad and with a d-pad instead of a trackpad. I've personally seen some people type pretty fast and accurate with a numpad though, i've even seen computer keyboards that were just a numpad.

Don't have a custom base58 keyboard made.  Non-standard components will just make it more expensive.  Find an existing qwerty keyboard in the size you want, and figure out how to integrate it into the device.

A camera is an excellent idea, and I would say it's almost necessary.  Can you imagine waiting in line at a retailer while you wait for the person in front of you to painstakingly input all 34 characters of a bitcoin address, only for the checksum to not match and they have to do it all over again?  I would become rather agitated.  I wouldn't set the focus at a permanent 5" though.  Some QR codes will be much bigger than could be scanned from just 5" away (example: Meze Grill).  The camera would need to have an autofocus mechanism.

I would not buy or be interested in a device with just a numpad for input.  I absolutely abhor phones that are that way, even though I became pretty quick at entering in that method myself.  It's just plain obnoxious to type on one - enough to the point where I won't even consider purchasing a device that only has that method of data entry.

You try to find a decent qwerty keypad that wouldn't cost more then a few cents less then a custom of the same size. (when ordering in bulk). Now that i actually put thought into it, a qwerty keypad would be best. Im not 100% sure we can find a cheap camera that would work in a device that has autofoucs. Maybe a good old manual focus ring?

[SgtSpike]

Fixed that.
Also, there concepts. Not the final word. I would also think that just a numpad would be bad. I might see about getting a base58 keypad made or other. I was thinking we could put a camera in the back that was perma-focused at about 5 inches for scanning qr-codes (maybe even upload images for some sort of OCR? Probably not, but its an idea. I actually based the design off a blockified blackberry, reduced to a numpad and with a d-pad instead of a trackpad. I've personally seen some people type pretty fast and accurate with a numpad though, i've even seen computer keyboards that were just a numpad.

Don't have a custom base58 keyboard made.  Non-standard components will just make it more expensive.  Find an existing qwerty keyboard in the size you want, and figure out how to integrate it into the device.

A camera is an excellent idea, and I would say it's almost necessary.  Can you imagine waiting in line at a retailer while you wait for the person in front of you to painstakingly input all 34 characters of a bitcoin address, only for the checksum to not match and they have to do it all over again?  I would become rather agitated.  I wouldn't set the focus at a permanent 5" though.  Some QR codes will be much bigger than could be scanned from just 5" away (example: Meze Grill).  The camera would need to have an autofocus mechanism.

I would not buy or be interested in a device with just a numpad for input.  I absolutely abhor phones that are that way, even though I became pretty quick at entering in that method myself.  It's just plain obnoxious to type on one - enough to the point where I won't even consider purchasing a device that only has that method of data entry.

You try to find a decent qwerty keypad that wouldn't cost more then a few cents less then a custom of the same size. (when ordering in bulk). Now that i actually put thought into it, a qwerty keypad would be best. Im not 100% sure we can find a cheap camera that would work in a device that has autofoucs. Maybe a good old manual focus ring?

Eh, I'm no good at finding the parts.  Good luck with the hunt though.    Manual focus wouldn't hurt for a first run of a product.  I understand the need to find things cheaply.

[Meatpile]

You should really consider why you would need a full keyboard, in what scenarios are people going to need to type in rediculous bitcoin addresses?

And why not make those very few people use a small usb keyboard instead of increasing the cost of hundreds of units?

[natman3400]

You should really consider why you would need a full keyboard, in what scenarios are people going to need to type in rediculous bitcoin addresses?

And why not make those very few people use a small usb keyboard instead of increasing the cost of hundreds of units?

Solution: MAKE IT AN OPTION.
As conflicting opinions have been shown, i think ill just make the entry method optional.

[SgtSpike]

You should really consider why you would need a full keyboard, in what scenarios are people going to need to type in rediculous bitcoin addresses?

And why not make those very few people use a small usb keyboard instead of increasing the cost of hundreds of units?

In what scenarios would you NOT need to type in an address?  QR codes are the only one I can think of, and not everyone is going to have one of those handy...

[Mjbmonetarymetals]

I've only skimmed the thread , so I appologise if this has no use or was mentioned earlier

Could the technology in development on this website be adapted somehow ?? The raspberry pi , a miniature computer that runs Linux

 http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=11

[Mjbmonetarymetals]

 

[SgtSpike]

Haha, sweet art there Mjb.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

And don't you need a full alphanumeric keyboard for typing out bitcoin addresses?

IMHO, people would (should?) not type in bitcoin addresses. They would either load them from a camera or from bluetooth. The device would be better, simpler and cheaper with only a number pad and a few more buttons for navigation and control.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

Another thing I'd like to strongly suggest: the device should come with an embedded Tor proxy. This is getting particularly more important now that some folks are considering writing software to link IPs to bitcoin transactions.

[SgtSpike]

And don't you need a full alphanumeric keyboard for typing out bitcoin addresses?

IMHO, people would (should?) not type in bitcoin addresses. They would either load them from a camera or from bluetooth. The device would be better, simpler and cheaper with only a number pad and a few more buttons for navigation and control.

You're making the assumption that both persons involved in a transaction would have a BitClip.  What happens when I want to pay someone for an item on CL, we meet in a public place, I show up with my BitClip, and he shows up with his address printed out, and I have no way to pay him because he doesn't have bluetooth or a way to generate a QR code?

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

You're making the assumption that both persons involved in a transaction would have a BitClip.  What happens when I want to pay someone for an item on CL, we meet in a public place, I show up with my BitClip, and he shows up with his address printed out, and I have no way to pay him because he doesn't have bluetooth or a way to generate a QR code?

But why can't the camera recognize the printed address the same way it does with the QR code? I was considering it as part of the "expected features".

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Do it!  Given the interest in other novelty projects for bitcoin-related items (bitcoins in resin, bitcoin rings, etc), I wouldn't be surprised to see people jump on something like this like a dog on a... hot dog.

Perhaps the most important item of business is a security audit of the distro used.  People would like assurances that nothing funny was going on in the code in the background.  Not sure how you would be able to provide such an assurance, but it's definitely something to consider.

Prosper.com is a great place to get a microloan too BTW.  Funding took about a week to reach my bank account after the loan was approved and fully funded.  I think it's a great project anyway...

Do it!  Given the interest in other novelty projects for bitcoin-related items (bitcoins in resin, bitcoin rings, etc),

By the end of this week, I'll reveal a prototype of a Bitcoin theme, hand tooled leather wallet, based on this image (but better):



Follow the link in my sig to learn more.

[natman3400]

You should really consider why you would need a full keyboard, in what scenarios are people going to need to type in rediculous bitcoin addresses?

And why not make those very few people use a small usb keyboard instead of increasing the cost of hundreds of units?

In what scenarios would you NOT need to type in an address?  QR codes are the only one I can think of, and not everyone is going to have one of those handy...

How about I just add a button to the QR scanner interface that uploads it to my server for some OCR, and sends back the address. As long as you can get a clear picture, you would probably only have to change one or two characters at most (hell, my 5 year old scanner has some good OCR in its free software suite, it can defiantly convert a bitcoin address).

I've only skimmed the thread , so I appologise if this has no use or was mentioned earlier

Could the technology in development on this website be adapted somehow ?? The raspberry pi , a miniature computer that runs Linux

 http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=11

As I have said, I already have a base hardware, but thanks anyway.

*image here*

Okaithen

Another thing I'd like to strongly suggest: the device should come with an embedded Tor proxy. This is getting particularly more important now that some folks are considering writing software to link IPs to bitcoin transactions.

I'm planning on using VPN to control what the devices can access and vise versa, and as I will probably either not release the logs, or just not keep any, it would be nearly impossible to tell which bitclip was sending the transaction from behind that IP.

You're making the assumption that both persons involved in a transaction would have a BitClip.  What happens when I want to pay someone for an item on CL, we meet in a public place, I show up with my BitClip, and he shows up with his address printed out, and I have no way to pay him because he doesn't have bluetooth or a way to generate a QR code?

But why can't the camera recognize the printed address the same way it does with the QR code? I was considering it as part of the "expected features".

This takes decent CPU power. A luxury this device won't need or have.

[kjj]

You're making the assumption that both persons involved in a transaction would have a BitClip.  What happens when I want to pay someone for an item on CL, we meet in a public place, I show up with my BitClip, and he shows up with his address printed out, and I have no way to pay him because he doesn't have bluetooth or a way to generate a QR code?

But why can't the camera recognize the printed address the same way it does with the QR code? I was considering it as part of the "expected features".

QR was invented specifically because this is hard to do.

[natman3400]

You're making the assumption that both persons involved in a transaction would have a BitClip.  What happens when I want to pay someone for an item on CL, we meet in a public place, I show up with my BitClip, and he shows up with his address printed out, and I have no way to pay him because he doesn't have bluetooth or a way to generate a QR code?

But why can't the camera recognize the printed address the same way it does with the QR code? I was considering it as part of the "expected features".

QR was invented specifically because this is hard to do.

The post office has some pretty powerful OCR that I think there is an open source version of, but its not like you can just plug it into your cheap-a-de-cheapo Pentium 2 PC. I think that the uploading the image might work, but we still need a failsafe entry method.

[DiamondPlus]

The distro would probably just consist of the Linux/BSD kernel, X,  and the bitcoin client (probably custom). What we could do to provide an audit is have someone (probably using bitcoins coming from me) use the device from home for a length of time, and monitor the content of every packet it sends. A specialized device wouldn't use much bandwidth.

[SgtSpike]

You should really consider why you would need a full keyboard, in what scenarios are people going to need to type in rediculous bitcoin addresses?

And why not make those very few people use a small usb keyboard instead of increasing the cost of hundreds of units?

In what scenarios would you NOT need to type in an address?  QR codes are the only one I can think of, and not everyone is going to have one of those handy...

How about I just add a button to the QR scanner interface that uploads it to my server for some OCR, and sends back the address. As long as you can get a clear picture, you would probably only have to change one or two characters at most (hell, my 5 year old scanner has some good OCR in its free software suite, it can defiantly convert a bitcoin address).

Might be worth a shot.  I still like the idea of a keyboard, but it looks like I'm outvoted. 

[natman3400]

The distro would probably just consist of the Linux/BSD kernel, X,  and the bitcoin client (probably custom). What we could do to provide an audit is have someone (probably using bitcoins coming from me) use the device from home for a length of time, and monitor the content of every packet it sends. A specialized device wouldn't use much bandwidth.

And what was the point of quoting me, but not putting it in quotes, and then not saying anything else?

idea of a keyboard, but it looks like I'm outvoted. 

I too like the idea of somekind of keyboard, but we'll have to see how it turns out.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

I'm planning on using VPN to control what the devices can access and vise versa, and as I will probably either not release the logs, or just not keep any, it would be nearly impossible to tell which bitclip was sending the transaction from behind that IP.

Oh, you plan to make a client-server solution, not a light-weight bitcoin node. Yeah, makes more sense and will probably be cheaper. Just one thing then: add a way to extract the wallet to a USB device or something, so people wouldn't be entirely dependent on your server in order to spend the coins. Never know, you might get shut down...
Well, I suppose you are already foreseeing something like this for backup purposes anyway.

But why can't the camera recognize the printed address the same way it does with the QR code? I was considering it as part of the "expected features".

This takes decent CPU power. A luxury this device won't need or have.

Ok. But still, I think the full keyboard is not necessary. I wouldn't type in an address. I'd always require a QR code at least. Today, with smartphone apps capable of generating them, it's not that hard.


Thank you for your work, I really hope you manage to conclude it soon.

[natman3400]

Oh, you plan to make a client-server solution, not a light-weight bitcoin node. Yeah, makes more sense and will probably be cheaper. Just one thing then: add a way to extract the wallet to a USB device or something, so people wouldn't be entirely dependent on your server in order to spend the coins. Never know, you might get shut down...
Well, I suppose you are already foreseeing something like this for backup purposes anyway.

No, the devices will still have there own wallet. I'm just funneling the connection so I can make sure nothing bad gets to talk to the devices. You would of course be able to turn this off and either input the nodes or use the bitcoin irc for connections. It also inadvertently doubles as a way to remain more anyonomus. I might have to keep records for legal reasons (read: The FBI requires any "internet service provider" to have some level FBI accessible logging, not sure if I would fall under that), but I wont release them unless hell freezes over and the skies burn red.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

No, the devices will still have there own wallet. I'm just funneling the connection so I can make sure nothing bad gets to talk to the devices.  You would of course be able to turn this off and either input the nodes or use the bitcoin irc for connections.

I had understood they would have their own wallets, but I didn't thought they would be "p2p nodes through a VPN" or something. Well, between that, and having a client-server app connected only to your server which is the only true bitcoin node, I think the second solution would be better for you. There's no need for the device to store the blockchain for ex., nor relay bitcoin messages for other nodes and so on. The device only needs to store the private keys locally and then contact your server to know how much money each address has, and to send transactions. Just like the iPhone app is doing.

Of course, there should be a way to save the wallet keys somewhere else, like in USB device. That's both for backup purposes and for not fully depending on your server. If it ever goes down, you export a wallet.dat to a standard bitcoin client. That also eliminates the need for trust, since anyone can verify that your server is not lying about the balance.

I might have to keep records for legal reasons (read: The FBI requires any "internet service provider" to have some level FBI accessible logging, not sure if I would fall under that), but I wont release them unless hell freezes over and the skies burn red.

Please, keep your server in a jurisdiction which doesn't require such thing, and don't keep logs. Or, do everything anonymously. ;-) (see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=35203.0 )

[natman3400]

No, the devices will still have there own wallet. I'm just funneling the connection so I can make sure nothing bad gets to talk to the devices.  You would of course be able to turn this off and either input the nodes or use the bitcoin irc for connections.

I had understood they would have their own wallets, but I didn't thought they would be "p2p nodes through a VPN" or something. Well, between that, and having a client-server app connected only to your server which is the only true bitcoin node, I think the second solution would be better for you. There's no need for the device to store the blockchain for ex., nor relay bitcoin messages for other nodes and so on. The device only needs to store the private keys locally and then contact your server to know how much money each address has, and to send transactions. Just like the iPhone app is doing.

Of course, there should be a way to save the wallet keys somewhere else, like in USB device. That's both for backup purposes and for not fully depending on your server. If it ever goes down, you export a wallet.dat to a standard bitcoin client. That also eliminates the need for trust, since anyone can verify that your server is not lying about the balance.

I might have to keep records for legal reasons (read: The FBI requires any "internet service provider" to have some level FBI accessible logging, not sure if I would fall under that), but I wont release them unless hell freezes over and the skies burn red.

Please, keep your server in a jurisdiction which doesn't require such thing, and don't keep logs. Or, do everything anonymously. ;-) (see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=35203.0 )

I live in the united states, and I don't trust any company to do hosting for me.
I want the devices to have the complete and total ability to function on there own. This is both a failsafe and because not everyone is going to trust me with the server position. And who said anything about storing the full block chain? You don't have to do that. And also no need to relay transactions. Just a lightweight, but full, client. And iv'e got encrypted SD cards in the works.

[buttcoin]

I can setup the wiki if you guys need it

[jago25_98]

 I suggest keeping everything on the commandline, such as scanning QR codes. Then, if need be, building it all into an Android device first of all, as a step towards something independent.

 You can already do lots of this with a cheap Android device (like http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160630685772&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en ) or a phone you already own.

 Once you got that stage you can then scale down the size for something independent and therefore more secure because we planned ahead and the previous developments can run on embedded linux rather than simply Android.

 So I suggest starting with just making Bitcoin on Android really good first - QR codes and everything really easy to use. Just make sure to keep it portable to a smaller form device later on - keep your QR code readers commandline etc. Also I suggest making the whole thing portable/adaptable to work with any future bitcoin-like projects.

[natman3400]

 I suggest keeping everything on the commandline, such as scanning QR codes. Then, if need be, building it all into an Android device first of all, as a step towards something independent.

 You can already do lots of this with a cheap Android device (like http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160630685772&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en ) or a phone you already own.

 Once you got that stage you can then scale down the size for something independent and therefore more secure because we planned ahead and the previous developments can run on embedded linux rather than simply Android.

 So I suggest starting with just making Bitcoin on Android really good first - QR codes and everything really easy to use. Just make sure to keep it portable to a smaller form device later on - keep your QR code readers commandline etc. Also I suggest making the whole thing portable/adaptable to work with any future bitcoin-like projects.

There is a inherent security risk in using Android, Unix isin't immune, and Android has a fair market share.
And who the hell would but something that only used a command line? Im actually thinking of ways to try and rip as much command line out as i can, just one less thing to infect. And we do have hardware to base it off of. Can somebody help out and find the right name for the pengachu project?

[RodeoX]

Is this it?
http://pubs.media.mit.edu/pubs/papers/pengachu.pdf

[natman3400]

Is this it?
http://pubs.media.mit.edu/pubs/papers/pengachu.pdf

Why yes, yes it is. Thank you.
Considering how little you actually need to run a dinky os with just the bitcoin client (I've tested on a 133mhz computer), we can strip this down quite nicely. While this is based on old technology, I am aware of 133mhz arm processors that cost only about 25-50 cents in bulk.

[DiamondPlus]

Also, there concepts. Not the final word. I would also think that just a numpad would be bad. I might see about getting a base58 keypad made or other. I was thinking we could put a camera in the back that was perma-focused at about 5 inches for scanning qr-codes (maybe even upload images for some sort of OCR? Probably not, but its an idea. I actually based the design off a blockified blackberry, reduced to a numpad and with a d-pad instead of a trackpad. I've personally seen some people type pretty fast and accurate with a numpad though, i've even seen computer keyboards that were just a numpad.

[natman3400]

Also, there concepts. Not the final word. I would also think that just a numpad would be bad. I might see about getting a base58 keypad made or other. I was thinking we could put a camera in the back that was perma-focused at about 5 inches for scanning qr-codes (maybe even upload images for some sort of OCR? Probably not, but its an idea. I actually based the design off a blockified blackberry, reduced to a numpad and with a d-pad instead of a trackpad. I've personally seen some people type pretty fast and accurate with a numpad though, i've even seen computer keyboards that were just a numpad.

If this happens one more time, I'm going to find a way to call copyright .

[natman3400]

I'm going to have to put this project to the side for a while for multiple reasons.
The biggest one being I have found my self in the middle of a community project celebrating the legacy of those that drove man into space.
If someone wants to take over in my absence, I would be glad to appoint someone to do just that.

[bitplane]

Dunno if anyone has mentioned this, but the Fossil Meta Watch development kit is now available. If it works how I think it works, then it would be an ideal place to store encryption keys for a Bitcoin wallet stored on a mobile device. The kit costs a mere $200.

[natman3400]

I hate to bump a dinosaur thread, but I fell this would be better off with this one instead of a new one.
I'm not really reviving this project fully, but lets just say its no longer in the freezer, and it is on the back burner of my electric stove. that isn't plugged in yet.

[cbeast]

I hate to bump a dinosaur thread, but I fell this would be better off with this one instead of a new one.
I'm not really reviving this project fully, but lets just say its no longer in the freezer, and it is on the back burner of my electric stove. that isn't plugged in yet.

When the time is right, we'll be watching for it. 

[natman3400]

Could someone do me a favor and analyze these numbers I got from a prng i hacked up, reason being the one i made is quite fast and small.
So if any of you can guess the internal state of this generator from this 4.9mb of numbers it pumped out, well I don't have anything to give you, except a shout out.
I did tweak the formula after i implemented it, so let me figure out what I changed it to so I can post it.
I would also like information on how random looking they are, it at all possible.


Here are your numbers:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/cf9fa1c/n/example.txt

[2112]

Could someone do me a favor and analyze these numbers I got from a prng i hacked up, reason being the one i made is quite fast and small.
So if any of you can guess the internal state of this generator from this 4.9mb of numbers it pumped out, well I don't have anything to give you, except a shout out.
I did tweak the formula after i implemented it, so let me figure out what I changed it to so I can post it.
I would also like information on how random looking they are, it at all possible.


Here are your numbers:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/cf9fa1c/n/example.txt

Yeah, I downloaded this file just for kicks. My guess of the internal state of the code monkey programmer who created it: disturbed.

Code:

$ zip -9 example example.txt
  adding: example.txt (deflated 100%)

$ unzip -lv example
Archive:  example.zip
 Length   Method    Size  Cmpr    Date    Time   CRC-32   Name
--------  ------  ------- ---- ---------- ----- --------  ----
 4913052  Defl:X    19362 100% 12/07/2011 17:49 d5749aba  example.txt
--------          -------  ---                            -------
 4913052            19362 100%                            1 file

Achieving almost 100% compression with plain-old Info-ZIP on a supposedly pseudo-random file is probably going to qualify for the Guinness Book for the World Record of stupidity.

Please, for the safety of your bitcoins, don't use any product offered by the original poster or anything else that he may associate himself with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil_(cryptography)

[natman3400]

Could someone do me a favor and analyze these numbers I got from a prng i hacked up, reason being the one i made is quite fast and small.
So if any of you can guess the internal state of this generator from this 4.9mb of numbers it pumped out, well I don't have anything to give you, except a shout out.
I did tweak the formula after i implemented it, so let me figure out what I changed it to so I can post it.
I would also like information on how random looking they are, it at all possible.


Here are your numbers:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/cf9fa1c/n/example.txt

Yeah, I downloaded this file just for kicks. My guess of the internal state of the code monkey programmer who created it: disturbed.

Code:

$ zip -9 example example.txt
  adding: example.txt (deflated 100%)

$ unzip -lv example
Archive:  example.zip
 Length   Method    Size  Cmpr    Date    Time   CRC-32   Name
--------  ------  ------- ---- ---------- ----- --------  ----
 4913052  Defl:X    19362 100% 12/07/2011 17:49 d5749aba  example.txt
--------          -------  ---                            -------
 4913052            19362 100%                            1 file

Achieving almost 100% compression with plain-old Info-ZIP on a supposedly pseudo-random file is probably going to qualify for the Guinness Book for the World Record of stupidity.

Please, for the safety of your bitcoins, don't use any product offered by the original poster or anything else that he may associate himself with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil_(cryptography)

So you are dissing the prng I made when I was bored in my Computer Science Class, and that I am not done with?
And did I ever say I was intending to use it for any sort of security?
Or even start to call it a csprng?


On another note, I had designed this for speed, not for security. Turns out, even with the most heavy focus on speed i can muster, isaac still beats it out.

[natman3400]

On yet another note, it would appear that I messed up somewhere in that code that makes it start outputting all zeros after a while, haven't really tested it well yet.
I think I have fixed it, im running it through die harder now.

[2112]

So you are dissing the prng I made when I was bored in my Computer Science Class, and that I am not done with?
And did I ever say I was intending to use it for any sort of security?
Or even start to call it a csprng?


On another note, I had designed this for speed, not for security. Turns out, even with the most heavy focus on speed i can muster, isaac still beats it out.

I actually find this fascinating: lets compare natman3400's coding skills to the famous xkcd comic site. I presume that xkcd #221 (http://xkcd.com/221/) represents the absolute limit of stupidity that is achievable in the USA. Anybody even little more stupid would not be allowed to graduate.

With the above code as a start I wrote a driver routine to recreate the sample of the same size as the original.

Code:

int getRandomNumber()
{
	return 4; // chosen by fair dice roll.
                  // guaranteed to be random.
}
#include <stdio.h>
int main()
{
	int i;

	for (i = 0; i < 4913052; ++i)
		printf("%i",getRandomNumber());
	return 0;
}

Now just a quick compilation and another test:

Code:

B:\>cl -nologo driver.c

B:\>driver > xkcd221.txt

B:\>zip -9 example.zip xkcd221.txt
  adding: xkcd221.txt (deflated 100%)

B:\>unzip -lv example.zip
Archive:  example.zip
 Length   Method    Size  Cmpr    Date    Time   CRC-32   Name
--------  ------  ------- ---- ---------- ----- --------  ----
 4913052  Defl:X    19362 100% 12/07/2011 17:49 d5749aba  example.txt
 4913052  Defl:X     4778 100% 12/07/2011 18:48 60303b1d  xkcd221.txt
--------          -------  ---                            -------
 9826104            24140 100%                            2 files

And this short test shows that natman3400 is over 4 times (19362/4778) less stupid than the absolute limit of stupidity possible while still graduating normal school in the USA.

On yet another note, it would appear that I messed up somewhere in that code that makes it start outputting all zeros after a while, haven't really tested it well yet.
I think I have fixed it, im running it through die harder now.

There are no more than 3 consecutive zeros in your example file.

People, please keep your bitcoins safe. Don't use Bitclip or any other product developed by somebody who was "bored in [my] Computer Science Class".

[natman3400]

The internal state was returning zeros, not the external one.
In the case of the derpy little equation I wrote, running a zero through it always results in the same repeating series.
Go pick on bigger fish, I would never tell anyone to use any product of mine that has not been verified by a trusted external source.

Me: Hmm, I'm interested in creating a little derpy random number generator just to see how it works, but I don't know how to test it, so ill just ask this nice community\
       (Misses error in the implemented equation)
2112: (Sees result of error) DON'T USE ANYTHING HE MAKES!

wut?

[natman3400]

Also, it is still psuedorandom, just with WAY to small of a period to be useful for anything.

[natman3400]

I am still looking for someone to look after this project for me while i am unable to do so. I Would expect my self to be away from this project until about may due to school issues.
On another note: I am looking for some people that have experience with implementing AES or RSA, that kind of math and bit-mangling scares me and i am afraid i would mess something up and make the decryption of the data as simple as dividing by two and then multiplying by three.

[btc_artist]

watching..

[unclemantis]

Has this project gone stale?