Is TradeFortress breaking the law?

[Viceroy]

What TF is offering is not illegal because it doesn't deal with money. What he's doing is no different than you borrowing a piece of paper from someone and returning two pieces the next day. You really think the person who accepts the two pieces is committing a crime because they are earning 100% interest/day or 36,500% interest a year on that piece of paper?

If he were dealing with cash, it would be different. As long as he's not, he is well within the lines of what is allowed.

The US department of treasurys FinCEN unit says bitcoins are money.  Are you an expert on the matter or is this just a "feeling" you have about TF and his actions?

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[freedomno1]

I'm missing "If you don't ban Viceroy I'll just scream" as a vote option.

So I wasn't having deja-vu

[Bitcoinpro]

What TF is offering is not illegal because it doesn't deal with money. What he's doing is no different than you borrowing a piece of paper from someone and returning two pieces the next day. You really think the person who accepts the two pieces is committing a crime because they are earning 100% interest/day or 36,500% interest a year on that piece of paper?

If he were dealing with cash, it would be different. As long as he's not, he is well within the lines of what is allowed.

The US department of treasurys FinCEN unit says bitcoins are money.  Are you an expert on the matter or is this just a "feeling" you have about TF and his actions?

since when did the discussion change to feelings?

[Viceroy]

I was challenging his position, it's all conjecture with no basis.  I am asking a question in the law forum and his answer sounded informative yet lacked substance.  So I asked for clarity.  I do not believe a company/person/firm can offer bank-like services without a state and/or federal charter.


While certainly not a definitive source here is a definition worth noting:


bank

An organization, usually a corporation, chartered by a state or federal government, which does most or all of the following: receives demand deposits and time deposits, honors instruments drawn on them, and pays interest on them; discounts notes, makes loans, and invests in securities; collects checks, drafts, and notes; certifies depositor's checks; and issues drafts and cashier's checks.


Read more: http://www.investorwords.com/401/bank.html

[ranlo]

I was challenging his position, it's all conjecture with no basis.  I am asking a question in the law forum and his answer sounded informative yet lacked substance.  So I asked for clarity.  I do not believe a company/person/firm can offer bank-like services without a state and/or federal charter.


While certainly not a definitive source here is a definition worth noting:


bank

An organization, usually a corporation, chartered by a state or federal government, which does most or all of the following: receives demand deposits and time deposits, honors instruments drawn on them, and pays interest on them; discounts notes, makes loans, and invests in securities; collects checks, drafts, and notes; certifies depositor's checks; and issues drafts and cashier's checks.


Read more: http://www.investorwords.com/401/bank.html

First of all, what you're asking is based on American laws. He's not from the United States; he's from Australia. I do not know how their laws work as I do not reside there and as such have had no real reason to look into them. As far as I know, though, they have never made a statement about Bitcoin being the same as money there; what the United States says is irrelevant here.

[Viceroy]

The problem comes into play because he deals with Americans and he is not registered to do so.  That is illegal.  Anyone offering banking services to an American must follow American law.  This is why mtgox recently stopped paying out USD to Americans... because doing so is illegal when you are not registered.  in other words they chose to STOP breaking the law.  Unless/until TF does the same he is likely criminal actor.

The long arm of America recently forced the highly secret Swiss government to give up all their illegal relationships and end anonymity.  If an entire government cannot stop the USA then TF has no chance.

[ranlo]

The problem comes into play because he deals with Americans and he is not registered to do so.  That is illegal.  Anyone offering banking services to an American must follow American law.  This is why mtgox recently stopped paying out USD to Americans... because doing so is illegal when you are not registered.  in other words they chose to STOP breaking the law.  Unless/until TF does the same he is likely criminal actor.

The long arm of America recently forced the highly secret Swiss government to give up all their illegal relationships and end anonymity.  If an entire government cannot stop the USA then TF has no chance.

MtGox stopped because their payment processor could no longer process payments for Americans on their behalf. It had nothing to do with what MtGox did or did not want to do. It had to do what their American bank accounts were taking part in. Since the accounts were in the United States, of course our government had jurisdiction.

TF is not using a United States bank account for his transactions, nor any bank at all as a matter of fact. Therefore, again, you are bringing in irrelevant facts.

[Viceroy]

This thread is not about Mt Gox, who is also probably breaking many laws.  This thread is about TradeFortress.  

My specific allegation is that TF may be offering banking services to Americans and he does not seem to be registered to do so.  If he did not deal with Americans then he might not be breaking American banking laws, but he does and is.  (probably).

Other people bring up interesting accusations like TF is using peoples passwords, and other people have called him a scammer.  There must be something to their claims, don't you think?  

Even so I think there is something to my claim.  Unless you have proof to the contrary.

[Bitcoinpro]

This thread is not about Mt Gox, who is also probably breaking many laws.  This thread is about TradeFortress.  

My specific allegation is that TF may be offering banking services to Americans and he does not seem to be registered to do so.  If he did not deal with Americans then he might not be breaking American banking laws, but he does and is.  (probably).

Other people bring up interesting accusations like TF is using peoples passwords, and other people have called him a scammer.  There must be something to their claims, don't you think?  

Even so I think there is something to my claim.  Unless you have proof to the contrary.

show us the proof


 

[forensick]

The problem comes into play because he deals with Americans and he is not registered to do so.  That is illegal.  Anyone offering banking services to an American must follow American law.  This is why mtgox recently stopped paying out USD to Americans... because doing so is illegal when you are not registered.  in other words they chose to STOP breaking the law.  Unless/until TF does the same he is likely criminal actor.

The long arm of America recently forced the highly secret Swiss government to give up all their illegal relationships and end anonymity.  If an entire government cannot stop the USA then TF has no chance.

MtGox stopped because their payment processor could no longer process payments for Americans on their behalf. It had nothing to do with what MtGox did or did not want to do. It had to do what their American bank accounts were taking part in. Since the accounts were in the United States, of course our government had jurisdiction.

TF is not using a United States bank account for his transactions, nor any bank at all as a matter of fact. Therefore, again, you are bringing in irrelevant facts.

Man, that is a mess... USA is trying to spread their law outside of their borders, but it is totally against international law. Anyone can accept deposits from US people without any problem. The only problem comes out when that entity wants as well to trade on US stock markets. That´s the reason why Swiss banks cooperate now about their US clients. Couse in the case they will not provide informations to US, they could be cut from US stock markets, bond market, commodities etc. It is only reason. Otherwise everybody could say to mr. Obama and his fascist establishment just "FUCK OFF".

[Inedible]

Wait, isn't this just illegal rather than a scam?

The two words have very, very different meanings.

[Viceroy]

I just realized that TradeFortress offers a "free mixing service".  Can anyone tell me who, other than a money launderer, would need to mix their coins? 


"Bitcoin looks primed for money laundering"
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/12/18/bitcoin-money-laundering/

[fm1234]

posted by Inedible:

Wait, isn't this just illegal rather than a scam?

The two words have very, very different meanings.

This.  Seconded.


Frank

[Explodicle]

Can anyone tell me who, other than a money launderer, would need to mix their coins?

Everyone who values their privacy. For example if you want to buy porn and don't want some cyberstalker to send a list of sites to your mother.

[QuantPlus]

This thread is not about Mt Gox, who is also probably breaking many laws.  This thread is about TradeFortress.  

My specific allegation is that TF may be offering banking services to Americans and he does not seem to be registered to do so.  If he did not deal with Americans then he might not be breaking American banking laws, but he does and is.  (probably).

Other people bring up interesting accusations like TF is using peoples passwords, and other people have called him a scammer.  There must be something to their claims, don't you think?  

Even so I think there is something to my claim.  Unless you have proof to the contrary.

Dude, FINCEN has 300 employees...
They just go after what is politically expedient.

Ripple is 100% illegal from top to bottom...
In terms of the SEC (securities), FINCEN (fiat), Futures Commissions (commodities), IRS (Tax Compliance)...
Ripple REFUSES to provide timestamps for transactions...
And it's impossible to download even the most basic Trading Report that is Tax Compliant.

So OpenCoin has made a deliberate CHOICE to run a global money laundering network.

The whole TF debacle with Ripple back in April or whatever...
TF luckily exposed an VERY COMPLEX default setting in the Ripple Client regarding Trust Lines...
That was designed to allow sophisticated users to FLEECE ordinary people...
By substituting junk IOUs for quality IOUs via "rippling".

Here is the very scary OpenCoin discussion about this...
Notice only ONE person (Vinnie Falco)...
Is in favor of extending ANY protection to ordinary users...
So the core OpenCoin position is to screw early adopters and ordinary people.

https://github.com/ripple/ripple-client/issues/748

OpenCoin lied point blank about this entire incident on their official web site...
Which is what they do every time there is a problem.

There have been many instances of Ripple users having funds stolen...
OpenCoin just says, oh wow, it was obviously your crappy password.

[Viceroy]

Thank you for that response QuantPlus.  Now that we have a solid foundation on that matter I want to have it end in this thread.  It is clear that there are strong opinions about ripple being a scam or illegal, but the company is easy to find and if they are breaking the law the regulators know how to get ahold of them.  Now let's shift the focus back to TF, the central character in this OP.

Can anyone tell me who, other than a money launderer, would need to mix their coins?

Everyone who values their privacy. For example if you want to buy porn and don't want some cyberstalker to send a list of sites to your mother.

Yea, if you afraid to buy porn you probably shouldn't be looking at it.  Real men are not afraid to buy things that might be embarrassing to a ten year old.  

If you want anonymity, buy it with cash.  Bitcoin is not anonymous.  Every transaction is recorded in a public log.  

[tinus42]

The problem comes into play because he deals with Americans and he is not registered to do so.  That is illegal.  Anyone offering banking services to an American must follow American law.  This is why mtgox recently stopped paying out USD to Americans... because doing so is illegal when you are not registered.  in other words they chose to STOP breaking the law.  Unless/until TF does the same he is likely criminal actor.

The long arm of America recently forced the highly secret Swiss government to give up all their illegal relationships and end anonymity.  If an entire government cannot stop the USA then TF has no chance.

MtGox stopped because their payment processor could no longer process payments for Americans on their behalf. It had nothing to do with what MtGox did or did not want to do. It had to do what their American bank accounts were taking part in. Since the accounts were in the United States, of course our government had jurisdiction.

TF is not using a United States bank account for his transactions, nor any bank at all as a matter of fact. Therefore, again, you are bringing in irrelevant facts.

Man, that is a mess... USA is trying to spread their law outside of their borders, but it is totally against international law. Anyone can accept deposits from US people without any problem. The only problem comes out when that entity wants as well to trade on US stock markets. That´s the reason why Swiss banks cooperate now about their US clients. Couse in the case they will not provide informations to US, they could be cut from US stock markets, bond market, commodities etc. It is only reason. Otherwise everybody could say to mr. Obama and his fascist establishment just "FUCK OFF".

As I understand it US law applies outside the USA if Americans are involved. A few years ago a Dutch DJ was extradited to the US and served time there for selling drugs to an American in the Netherlands. Yes the Netherlands extradites its own citizens for offences committed in the Netherlands.

Also "aliens" (non US-ians) have no rights in the American court system. So you are basically f-d if you land in their clutches. 

[forensick]

The problem comes into play because he deals with Americans and he is not registered to do so.  That is illegal.  Anyone offering banking services to an American must follow American law.  This is why mtgox recently stopped paying out USD to Americans... because doing so is illegal when you are not registered.  in other words they chose to STOP breaking the law.  Unless/until TF does the same he is likely criminal actor.

The long arm of America recently forced the highly secret Swiss government to give up all their illegal relationships and end anonymity.  If an entire government cannot stop the USA then TF has no chance.

MtGox stopped because their payment processor could no longer process payments for Americans on their behalf. It had nothing to do with what MtGox did or did not want to do. It had to do what their American bank accounts were taking part in. Since the accounts were in the United States, of course our government had jurisdiction.

TF is not using a United States bank account for his transactions, nor any bank at all as a matter of fact. Therefore, again, you are bringing in irrelevant facts.

Man, that is a mess... USA is trying to spread their law outside of their borders, but it is totally against international law. Anyone can accept deposits from US people without any problem. The only problem comes out when that entity wants as well to trade on US stock markets. That´s the reason why Swiss banks cooperate now about their US clients. Couse in the case they will not provide informations to US, they could be cut from US stock markets, bond market, commodities etc. It is only reason. Otherwise everybody could say to mr. Obama and his fascist establishment just "FUCK OFF".

As I understand it US law applies outside the USA if Americans are involved. A few years ago a Dutch DJ was extradited to the US and served time there for selling drugs to an American in the Netherlands. Yes the Netherlands extradites its own citizens for offences committed in the Netherlands.

Also "aliens" (non US-ians) have no rights in the American court system. So you are basically f-d if you land in their clutches. 

yes, you understand it good. It is a nonsense at all, dangerous precedence as we all made some crime, at least when prism and similar programs collect our emails, statuses on social network etc. I think every person commit about 3 crimes a day in developed world. it is very sad that law, which should protect people mostly against its governement, destroyed the princilples of old Romanian or common law and we live in a world of... can´t find word which would suit. Only vulgar :-D

[CIYAM]

As I understand it US law applies outside the USA if Americans are involved.you are basically f-d if you land in their clutches.  

Good luck with enforcing that in China (like any country that isn't a puppet of the US the only laws that matter here are its own).

I can't remember exactly when so much of the rest of the world decided that US law can apply anywhere but I am very glad that China says "fuck off - your laws mean nothing here".

[tinus42]

As I understand it US law applies outside the USA if Americans are involved.you are basically f-d if you land in their clutches.  

Good luck with enforcing that in China (like any country that isn't a puppet of the US the only laws that matter here are its own).

I can't remember exactly when so much of the rest of the world decided that US law can apply anywhere but I am very glad that China says "fuck off - your laws mean nothing here".

Australia is also a servant to the US and WILL extradite their own citizens, even when they never set foot on US soil. Like this unfortunate young man who pirated software owned by US corporations:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/05/06/1178390140855.html