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Author Topic: MasterCoin: New Protocol Layer Starting From “The Exodus Address”  (Read 448419 times)
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bitexch
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November 28, 2013, 07:38:00 PM
 #2221



Let me first make a general comment, and then I will address each of your reservations individually. The question isn't whether there are some virtues to a bounty system that will be lost by hiring full-time employees, but whether on the whole having full-time employees is better than having exclusively bounties. I don't see why we can't have a mix of bounties and full-time employees. It seems to me that if the full-time employees act in concert, then they could decide, with the approval of the board, what specifically . I can't emphasize enough that we have millions of dollars at our disposal, and we ought to use it intelligently and effectively.

I really don't know. I'm split on this issue, honestly, as you can tell from my posts. I have favored full-time employees before because I know the talent is excellent and I know they will get the job done, but at the same time, I now realize this subtle difference in mechanism of motivation could mean a lot down the road, on a systems level. It also forces those developers to become an authority and would probably burden them with managerial responsibilities than they normally have to. I know at least one developer that does not want to deal with that kind of stuff. I asked for their input in the Dev Thread to come in here in order to voice their side, but I like to think these guys simply wish to stay out of the politics and just do what they do best by solving problems when presented clear cut objectives with a very clear cut reward. But I don't know, I wish they spoke more on this topic.

I think there is a greater variety of personalities among programmers than you're acknowledging. Of course *some* programmers won't want to get involved in the managerial and political side of the project, but it doesn't follow that there isn't a good programmer who not only won't mind this side, but may actually enjoy it! Not every full-time programmer needs to be a manager, one or two, who could represent the interests of the devs in discussion with the board would probably be enough. In any case, it seems bizarre to let your suspicion that developers won't want managerial responsibilities stop you from searching for them. What do you think?


Quote
On that note, I think it is important that the board members explicitly answer rbdrbd's question: "Do we have anyone on the board that has "boot on the ground" operational experience growing profitable software/tech startups with more than 5-10 employees?"

I do not. The quieter board members like Brock Pierce and Jonathan Yantis I do believe so. I will let the others who have accounts here speak for themselves. Anyway, looking into it some more, I found this interesting article that involves both Brock and Jonathan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IGE

Thank you for engaging my question, hopefully the other board members will also respond. Is there a place I can find an exhaustive list of the Mastercoin board members?
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bitexch
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November 28, 2013, 07:50:29 PM
 #2222

bitexch, I'm in agreement with you 100% on that last response. In my mind, the full time devs should focus mostly around implementation of the base libraries and services of Mastercoin (e.g. mastercoin-explorer, web wallet, masterdaemon, etc), as well as leading the charge in specing out (and working through any ambiguities of) the Mastercoin spec. This all is the part that requires that full-time level of coordination, focus and persistence, to "get right". The community needs stable and solid base tools to build on that are well-maintained. These full time devs form that "solid ground" of base tools and services that the community can build on top of. It is exactly this reason why I made such a fuss about the "mastercoind"/"masterdaemon" idea, and have spent a lot of my time to work on this. I really see it as crucial to enabling future community-driven growth.

Then, the Mastercoin foundation, beyond enabling its fulltime team of devs to persist and providing long term vision for the project as a whole, should work within the community (via bounties, etc, much like they already are) to encourage businesses and efforts to form around this base Mastercoin stack. Without that crucial community involvement (and involving and investing outsiders into Mastercoin via generous dev MSC bounties and rewards), Mastercoin will end up just being an insider pet project and sideshow. These MSC need to get out into the community and into capable and talented new hands for Mastercoin to have an impact.

This is very much akin to Facebook cementing its place in the social media industry by building a base platform with full SDK/APIs, and establishing a thriving 3rd party development ecosystem around it. That's a great model for Mastercoin in many ways, I think.

I think this perfectly explains why both full-time devs and bounties are necessary for the success of Mastercoin, and the respective role that each should play in Mastercoin's development. I also think the analogy with Facebook is apt, and is how we should be thinking.

Quote
PS: Also, thank you vokain for being so open to other views and opinions, and working with us in this way on this forum. Very much appreciated.

+1. Would love to see similar engagement from the other board members!
vokain
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November 28, 2013, 08:31:45 PM
 #2223

Posting from my phone, real quickly all, I'd like to point out the current devs have already earned a substantial amount of money...likely enough to live off for at least a few months/years/decades... They do not need the extra advantage, and it is up to them how much time they wish to allocate between the rest of their lives and Mastercoin considering the future reward. I do not support an ongoing salary for them until some sort of objectives are laid out for such a salary that cannot be better accomplished via bounties.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Edit: board members include
Antony Vo (me)
JR
Ron Gross
David Johnston
Brock Pierce
Sam Yilmaz
Jonathan Yantis
Ola
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November 28, 2013, 09:00:16 PM
 #2224

Posting from my phone, real quickly all, I'd like to point out the current devs have already earned a substantial amount of money...likely enough to live off for at least a few months/years/decades... They do not need the extra advantage, and it is up to them how much time they wish to allocate between the rest of their lives and Mastercoin considering the future reward. I do not support an ongoing salary for them until some sort of objectives are laid out for such a salary that cannot be better accomplished via bounties.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Edit: board members include
Antony Vo (me)
JR
Ron Gross
David Johnston
Brock Pierce
Sam Yilmaz
Jonathan Yantis


This has nothing to do with an unfair advantage..This has everything to do with TIME spent on mastercoin. We need developers to spend more time developing mastercoin core and its features than they do at their Jobs..I don't think anyone will advocate an unfair advantage..You really believe that a bounty will provide the right incentive for a developers to spend more time working on mastercoin than a full time salary will? If this is your line of thinking and the resistance plaguing the board I think we are in trouble. We are dealing with centralized issues while trying to solve decentralized problems all over...

Happy Thanksgiving!

Nxter,Bitcoiner,Ether highlevel developer working to improve the world.
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November 28, 2013, 09:28:16 PM
Last edit: November 28, 2013, 09:40:20 PM by vokain
 #2225

Posting from my phone, real quickly all, I'd like to point out the current devs have already earned a substantial amount of money...likely enough to live off for at least a few months/years/decades... They do not need the extra advantage, and it is up to them how much time they wish to allocate between the rest of their lives and Mastercoin considering the future reward. I do not support an ongoing salary for them until some sort of objectives are laid out for such a salary that cannot be better accomplished via bounties.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Edit: board members include
Antony Vo (me)
JR
Ron Gross
David Johnston
Brock Pierce
Sam Yilmaz
Jonathan Yantis


This has nothing to do with an unfair advantage..This has everything to do with TIME spent on mastercoin. We need developers to spend more time developing mastercoin core and its features than they do at their Jobs..I don't think anyone will advocate an unfair advantage..You really believe that a bounty will provide the right incentive for a developers to spend more time working on mastercoin than a full time salary will? If this is your line of thinking and the resistance plaguing the board I think we are in trouble. We are dealing with centralized issues while trying to solve decentralized problems all over...

Happy Thanksgiving!

Yeah, I think it's a pretty appealing case for the devs right now to spend their time on Mastercoin, salary or not.

Again, if I was a contestant, if after I had already earned 500 MSC and whatever the BTCs that first $30000 contest is worth now, if I was faced with the decision to leave my job or dedicate more of my time towards earning more of these high value coins that have already shown to have value, (options/equity in the startup basically), I'd probably leave after getting a taste of the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. To each their own, that's the point. If I could earn 50-100 BTC in a few weeks-months of working on code that I am confident I could get done, I definitely would!  Especially after earning serious wealth. If you were already awarded BTCBTCBTC and made more in a month's creativity than your job paid in a year+, and had the chance to do that again, you have a choice to make.

Yes, cryptocurrency has convicted me strongly of competition. Competition creates some crazy crazy innovations and brings the best people together. Already confirmed rewards (salaries) kind of go against that. Did the DARPA Grand Challenge reward anyone before the contest? Once the contestants have proven themselves, they receive the bounty which enables them to spend more TIME on such projects. The best way to encourage further dev is by providing further incentive for development of objectives with very clear criteria, ie bounties.




requoting for the second time for further emphasis:
LETS GET THESE GREAT DEVELOPERS FULL TIME ON MASTERCOIN

If that's split between the current four Devs they would have made $78,125 USD in Dev MSC EACH MONTH the last three months = $234,375 USD and they would have quit their jobs by now. It really is that simple.
This represents an 'unearned' windfall.  This is not good.  I say pay the devs really well.  Too well.  But don't throw the money away - we need it to motivate more devs in the future.  
bitexch
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November 28, 2013, 09:37:37 PM
 #2226

Posting from my phone, real quickly all, I'd like to point out the current devs have already earned a substantial amount of money...likely enough to live off for at least a few months/years/decades... They do not need the extra advantage, and it is up to them how much time they wish to allocate between the rest of their lives and Mastercoin considering the future reward. I do not support an ongoing salary for them until some sort of objectives are laid out for such a salary that cannot be better accomplished via bounties.


If you think that the size of the bounties was disproportionate to the amount of work the devs did, this would indicate that the size of the bounties was not carefully enough considered. I would only point out that whether you're right or not doesn't in-itself mean that salaries are either good or bad.

A little while ago we hired a PR firm, which was meant, in part, to find developers. As far as I know, that has not come to anything yet, and so I am proposing that rather waiting for the PR firm to bring developers to us, we find developers that whose work we like, and whom we think would be a good fit for Mastercoin. Anyone who wants to nominate a developer should provide an explanation as to why she's a good fit, and also provide some examples of her code, experience etc. (a link to a Github page is good).

It is this kind of transparent, democratic hiring process which is necessary for Mastercoin to succeed, and which, in my view, has really been missing thus far.

Whoever is interested in this idea should post on the following thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=351077 . This would of course be a good place for updates regarding the PR firm's search for developers.
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November 28, 2013, 09:38:33 PM
Last edit: November 28, 2013, 09:59:17 PM by vokain
 #2227

Posting from my phone, real quickly all, I'd like to point out the current devs have already earned a substantial amount of money...likely enough to live off for at least a few months/years/decades... They do not need the extra advantage, and it is up to them how much time they wish to allocate between the rest of their lives and Mastercoin considering the future reward. I do not support an ongoing salary for them until some sort of objectives are laid out for such a salary that cannot be better accomplished via bounties.


If you think that the size of the bounties was disproportionate to the amount of work the devs did, this would indicate that the size of the bounties was not carefully enough considered. I would only point out that whether you're right or not doesn't in-itself mean that salaries are either good or bad.

I do not think that the size of the bounties were disproportionate to the work they did.  They definitely earned it and this sort of consequence only serves to increase developer incentive.

"I would only point out that whether you're right or not doesn't in-itself mean that salaries are either good or bad."
I can agree. I want what is best for Mastercoin as well guys. I just think bounties are more effective than salaries in the case of core dev with clear criteria.
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November 28, 2013, 09:44:58 PM
 #2228

Posting from my phone, real quickly all, I'd like to point out the current devs have already earned a substantial amount of money...likely enough to live off for at least a few months/years/decades... They do not need the extra advantage, and it is up to them how much time they wish to allocate between the rest of their lives and Mastercoin considering the future reward. I do not support an ongoing salary for them until some sort of objectives are laid out for such a salary that cannot be better accomplished via bounties.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Edit: board members include
Antony Vo (me)
JR
Ron Gross
David Johnston
Brock Pierce
Sam Yilmaz
Jonathan Yantis


With the utmost of respect, I'm not aware of any developer who has earned enough to live off.

Full disclosure, I have made $6,000 fiat (from the contest, I converted BTC to dollars immediately - I'm conservative!).  That's well under a months salary.

My hours contributed are probably a few hundred by now.

I also have 375 MSC rewarded, which if I cashed out would be worth quite a lot I believe at current rates?  But unless I cash them out I can't use them to pay my bills & can only guess at their future value.

Not trying to be flippant but the assertion that us developers are wealthy enough already to quit full time work just isn't true.

Thanks! Smiley


Smart Property & Distributed Exchange: Master Protocol for Bitcoin
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November 28, 2013, 09:46:11 PM
 #2229

Different topic.

For those interested, reminding everyone that there is an ongoing 100 BTC bounty for testing the code our developers have been hammering away at and making sure they work well. This is the best way any person can help the developers and the Mastercoin project as a whole.

During my one comp sci class, I think I learned that the majority of work (at least cost of time wise) involved testing. I'd like to encourage this somehow to have more help on the testing front. Bug bounties a la google et al to preserve a rigorous spec.
Couldn't agree more on encouraging more testing - there is 100BTC ($100k+ as of right now, even Google max out at $20k for the most severe bugs) already in bounties for incentivising testing.
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November 28, 2013, 09:50:52 PM
 #2230

Posting from my phone, real quickly all, I'd like to point out the current devs have already earned a substantial amount of money...likely enough to live off for at least a few months/years/decades... They do not need the extra advantage, and it is up to them how much time they wish to allocate between the rest of their lives and Mastercoin considering the future reward. I do not support an ongoing salary for them until some sort of objectives are laid out for such a salary that cannot be better accomplished via bounties.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Edit: board members include
Antony Vo (me)
JR
Ron Gross
David Johnston
Brock Pierce
Sam Yilmaz
Jonathan Yantis


With the utmost of respect, I'm not aware of any developer who has earned enough to live off.

Full disclosure, I have made $6,000 fiat (from the contest, I converted BTC to dollars immediately - I'm conservative!).  That's well under a months salary.

My hours contributed are probably a few hundred by now.

I also have 375 MSC rewarded, which if I cashed out would be worth quite a lot I believe at current rates?  But unless I cash them out I can't use them to pay my bills & can only guess at their future value.

Not trying to be flippant but the assertion that us developers are wealthy enough already to quit full time work just isn't true.

Thanks! Smiley



My apologies zathras, thank you for your valuable input, you have no idea know how much it is needed with these conversations! I guess I didn't consider that others did not see Bitcoin as a savings account like I do (I pull money from my coins as necessary for expenses and spending and don't worry about the price. Doing this has served me very well, and I do recommend it, though of course, I'm not a professional financial advisor. I believe this will be the majority tendency in the future).

 To you, as a veteran of the process thus far, does upping the bounty size work better or worse than having a preconfirmed salary in terms of motivation and results? Not only to the person with the salary but to those without as well, the whole system.

What would you like to see Smiley
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November 28, 2013, 10:04:17 PM
 #2231

Posting from my phone, real quickly all, I'd like to point out the current devs have already earned a substantial amount of money...likely enough to live off for at least a few months/years/decades... They do not need the extra advantage, and it is up to them how much time they wish to allocate between the rest of their lives and Mastercoin considering the future reward. I do not support an ongoing salary for them until some sort of objectives are laid out for such a salary that cannot be better accomplished via bounties.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Edit: board members include
Antony Vo (me)
JR
Ron Gross
David Johnston
Brock Pierce
Sam Yilmaz
Jonathan Yantis


With the utmost of respect, I'm not aware of any developer who has earned enough to live off.

Full disclosure, I have made $6,000 fiat (from the contest, I converted BTC to dollars immediately - I'm conservative!).  That's well under a months salary.

My hours contributed are probably a few hundred by now.

I also have 375 MSC rewarded, which if I cashed out would be worth quite a lot I believe at current rates?  But unless I cash them out I can't use them to pay my bills & can only guess at their future value.

Not trying to be flippant but the assertion that us developers are wealthy enough already to quit full time work just isn't true.

Thanks! Smiley



My apologies zathras, thank you for your valuable input, you have no idea know how much it is needed with these conversations! I guess I didn't consider that others did not see Bitcoin as a savings account like I do (I pull money from my coins as necessary for expenses and spending and don't worry about the price. Doing this has served me very well, and I do recommend it, though of course, I'm not a professional financial advisor. I believe this will be the majority tendency in the future).

 To you, as a veteran of the process thus far, does upping the bounty size work better or worse than having a preconfirmed salary in terms of motivation and results? Not only to the person with the salary but to those without as well, the whole system.

What would you like to see Smiley

No apologies necessary at all Smiley. It's a difficult topic with lots of differing views.

There are ongoing discussions in the Dev mailing list on how we can make devs spending more time on the project a reality - have you seen those?

Thanks Smiley


Smart Property & Distributed Exchange: Master Protocol for Bitcoin
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November 28, 2013, 10:27:04 PM
 #2232

Quote from: zathras link=topic=265488.msg3758172#msg3758172
No apologies necessary at all Smiley. It's a difficult topic with lots of differing views.

There are ongoing discussions in the Dev mailing list on how we can make devs spending more time on the project a reality - have you seen those?

Thanks Smiley


No...embarrassingly enough I am not on that list. I just requested Aric to add me, hopefully I can see the previous messages.
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November 28, 2013, 10:53:21 PM
Last edit: November 28, 2013, 11:21:29 PM by Luckybit
 #2233

Why can't we do it in the same spirit as the first contest? Objectives laid out, prize is there, and developers are allowed to form coalitions as they liked. I like to think that coin distribution within the one partnership that the contest had (I forgot who) worked out fairly, as well as to the full body of the contestants. Let's let the contestants decide what's more important, their day job or a fixed bounty that rises day by day for creating a truly awesome life changing tech? It works because it's a race to claim the greater piece of the pie!

Discussion please!

Edit: tl;dr I think that for most objectives, core development wise, it is better to pay upon satisfactory completion vs paying up front.

I think full time developers are necessary. Contests can only work for so long. Look at the Linux development mailing list. You need between 5-10 full time developers and the money exists to easily hire them so why not? That does not mean they should be employees. Pay them in Bitcoin and give them tasks that suit full time development such as debugging, security oriented, the graphical user interface, quality assurance, and more.

Don't do it in the typical way. Hire only the developers who accept being paid in Mastercoins. If they won't accept being paid in Mastercoins they shouldn't be full time developers for the Mastercoin protocol. Reserve that for the people who truly believe in what Mastercoin will be. For developers who do not have enough money to pay bills through the month and if they are truly skilled and proven then they should take place in the bounties to earn a spot as a full time developer. What I think would be a bad idea would be to bring in developers who are not a part of the Bitcoin community, or the Mastercoin community, and give them the most privileged position of full time developer. It's not just about the developer having skill but these are people who have to be trusted.

Also have a look at Ciyam and see if it can solve some of these problems.
http://ciyam.org/open/
Example:
http://ciyam.org/open/?cmd=view&data=20121221072815393000&ident=M100V137&chksum=45c95736
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November 28, 2013, 10:57:32 PM
Last edit: November 28, 2013, 11:16:33 PM by Luckybit
 #2234

The next 6 months are critical. I believe a project manager is needed, someone with technical knowledge and management skills, who can hire and motivate the right people. A lot is at stake and the existing resources should be deployed intelligently and narrowly (i.e., not to fund every idea, but to use the bulk on the fundamentals) to hire the very best people to lead this project. Success at an early stage will create valuable dev MSCs that can fund the project for years going forward. The board needs to take decisive action to get the right people working on this project full time.  

For open-ended ongoing tasks like this, I believe what David proposed could be effective, to have x percentage of the new coins released in some length of time. To keep on receiving the flow of funds one must do a satisfactory enough job to the community to justify keeping someone on. Open communication in this case will be vital.
Edit2: I have rethought my position. See my post in the poll, I do not believe this is a good way of evaluating worth of work without clear objectives, and even harder to evaluate the worth of x PERCENTAGE of MSC in l time interval.

Edit: at the same time, do we need a project manager? I'd like to ask the current developers their thoughts. Do self-organizing teams need/benefit from a top-down type of manager to get clear-cut objectives completed? I like to think that we just need the element of competition for truly grand prizes  to speed things up fastest.  If a manager indeed would help development, I would imagine a good manager would offer up their talents to a dev talent pool and put together a team. Bounties split as they're earned and as the team likes.

Again, thoughts?

Competition isn't everything. At some point you need cooperation between developers and contests don't really help people to cooperate. What you need to do is pay development teams. Assign certain developers to a team and pay them all as they build something together.

So if a feature gets built by a team of 5 developers then team panther for instance should get paid as a group. Also you need to rely on collaborative software other than these forums to allow developers to collaborate and deal with bugs.

So my advice is to form development teams and give each team a code name. Give each team a particular area of focus and make each team select a team leader. So if one team is working on smart properties and another team is working on stocks and another the user currencies now you have three teams working on important features.

The team leaders from each team should be in communication with each other and should manage collaboration between the teams. The team leader should give a weekly report on the progress on the forum and give daily progress reports to the other teams via email. Use contests for purposes like smaller less critical features, experimental features, bug testing, or bug reporting.
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November 28, 2013, 11:26:00 PM
Last edit: November 28, 2013, 11:40:24 PM by vokain
 #2235

Competition isn't everything. At some point you need cooperation between developers and contests don't really help people to cooperate. What you need to do is pay development teams. Assign certain developers to a team and pay them all as they build something together.

So if a feature gets built by a team of 5 developers then team panther for instance should get paid as a group. Also you need to rely on software other than these forums to allow developers to collaborate and deal with bugs. Git might work but you need a development mailing list as well at least.

There has been and will be cooperation. Why do we need to pay individuals salaries and hope they "cooperate" as if they weren't already? If there's already the incentive to work together, distribute strengths as necessary, and efficiently organize roles in order to solve the problem at hand and secure the prize? The detriment of the salary is that when you have an official salaried "development team," it presents the idea that we already have the developers we need and we just need to wait and let them do work now that they are paid a salary. This is not conducive towards attracting new and possibly better talent!


 
additional thoughts:

quote from board emails:
Quote
Do you think that is fair? If you were a hopeful contestant and wanted to dedicate your skills towards a decentralized project?
Now, weigh that with its effectiveness. I think coalitions are great if the best developers we had right now got to call the shots on development, along with the freedom to not worry about their other financial obligations as much. Is there a way to encourage self-organizing coalitions so that we may still upkeep our promise of decentralization?

I assume guys like Tachikoma will naturally end up leading such endeavours anyways. It just may be better to keep up with decentralization and perhaps this subtle difference in mechanism could mean a lot down the road, motivation and incentive-wise and all that.

quotes from earlier:

Quote
Why can't we do it in the same spirit as the first contest? Objectives laid out, prize is there, and developers are allowed to form coalitions as they liked. I like to think that coin distribution within the one partnership that the contest had (I forgot who) worked out fairly, as well as to the full body of the contestants
Quote
I like to think that we just need the element of competition for truly grand prizes  to speed things up fastest.  If a manager indeed would help development, I would imagine a good manager would offer up their talents to a dev talent pool and put together a team. Bounties split as they're earned and as the team likes.
Quote
Yes, cryptocurrency has convicted me strongly of competition. Competition creates some crazy crazy innovations and brings the best people together. Already confirmed rewards (salaries) kind of go against that. Did the DARPA Grand Challenge reward anyone before the contest? Once the contestants have proven themselves, they receive the bounty which enables them to spend more TIME on such projects. The best and fairest way to encourage further dev is by providing further incentive for development of objectives with very clear criteria, ie bounties.
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November 28, 2013, 11:48:51 PM
 #2236


There has been and will be cooperation. Why do we need to pay individuals salaries and hope they "cooperate" as if they weren't already? If there's already the incentive to work together, distribute strengths as necessary, and efficiently organize roles in order to solve the problem at hand and secure the prize? The detriment of the salary is that when you have an official salaried "development team," it presents the idea that we already have the developers we need and we just need to wait and let them do work now that they are paid a salary. This is not conducive towards attracting new and possibly better talent!

vokain, you seem to be making two different points: (1) that salaried developers will hard to find, because of the political and managerial duties that come with a salary; (2) salaried developers are bad for the development for the project. I think it's important to state these two points separately. I have tried to respond to (1) in a previous posting, what are your thoughts?

Regarding (2): If I understand you correctly, you are worried that by having a pre-established team of salaried workers, we'll be scaring away talent that is not salaried. But one could easily apply this same argument to bounties: by only providing bounties, and not a real salary, we are scaring away developers who are looking for a longer-term commitment and job security. I not only think this is possible, but even quite likely!

No one is saying we shouldn't have bounties *on top of* salaried positions. What the community is rejecting is the much more inflexible idea of having bounties *instead of* salaried positions.

There is always the possibility that one is missing out on talent. The problem is that while trying to account for every potentially missed opportunity, you may hurt the project. I believe that right now Mastercoin is being hurt by not having both salaried developers as well as bounties.
vokain
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November 29, 2013, 12:02:31 AM
 #2237


There has been and will be cooperation. Why do we need to pay individuals salaries and hope they "cooperate" as if they weren't already? If there's already the incentive to work together, distribute strengths as necessary, and efficiently organize roles in order to solve the problem at hand and secure the prize? The detriment of the salary is that when you have an official salaried "development team," it presents the idea that we already have the developers we need and we just need to wait and let them do work now that they are paid a salary. This is not conducive towards attracting new and possibly better talent!

vokain, you seem to be making two different points: (1) that salaried developers will hard to find, because of the political and managerial duties that come with a salary; (2) salaried developers are bad for the development for the project. I think it's important to state these two points separately. I have tried to respond to (1) in a previous posting, what are your thoughts?

Regarding (2): If I understand you correctly, you are worried that by having a pre-established team of salaried workers, we'll be scaring away talent that is not salaried. But one could easily apply this same argument to bounties: by only providing bounties, and not a real salary, we are scaring away developers who are looking for a longer-term commitment and job security. I not only think this is possible, but even quite likely!

No one is saying we shouldn't have bounties *on top of* salaried positions. What the community is rejecting is the much more inflexible idea of having bounties *instead of* salaried positions.

There is always the possibility that one is missing out on talent. The problem is that while trying to account for every potentially missed opportunity, you may hurt the project. I believe that right now Mastercoin is being hurt by not having both salaried developers as well as bounties.

1) I'm not saying that salaried devs will be hard to find that will utilize political and managerial duties, it's just that I feel that many of the current devs we have prefer to stay out of politics if they can avoid it. in my "additional thoughts" quote one post above, I said that if a manager would actually turn out to be useful, I would hope they would offer their managerial talents to the devs and they can figure it out from there. Sort of like how a band and band manager works, they know best what is fair within a team. This would work under the current bounty system, especially when it is presented that there is a huge prize available.

2) I think that is up for the person who has to make the choice of deciding between longer-term commitment and the possible awesome rewards at this end of the rainbow. You posit we scare away developers because we don't offer salaries. How do we even justify giving a newcomer a salary if they have had nothing to show for it before? Again, for the third fourth time, unearned windfall. It's a risk that is made irrelevant when we have bounties for clear-cut criteria, which is true for developing the spec implementation.


This is  an excerpt from one private email, as a response to JR when he asked the devs what it would take to have them on as full hires:
Quote
Have you put any thought around how you might actually structure these hires?  How would they (we) be managed?  How would you measure performance (ie is the intention to set KPIs or similar)?  Informal or formally contracted?  Would specific work packages be issued to developers under say for example a project management methodology like Prince2 or would developers be free to structure their contributions as they deem appropriate as per current?      

Same on the funding front - how do you intend to make payment?  On a weekly/monthly basis or per deliverable/specific goal?  Will 'paid' developers still be be eligible to to claim bounties?  At a full or reduced rate?

It echoes what I have been thinking with even more specificity. Salaries add unnecessary complexity and questions to be answered that you do not have with bounties.

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November 29, 2013, 12:04:36 AM
 #2238

There has been and will be cooperation. Why do we need to pay individuals salaries and hope they "cooperate" as if they weren't already?
I don't see any organized development teams. I don't see cooperation. I see different developers all working on stuff and I cannot keep up with who is doing what or what progress is. For a project as big as this you need daily reports among developers and weekly reports to the community. We have a blog which provides some of that but it's not detailed. We don't get to see for instance a daily changelog with comments. If there is a bug that a particular developer is having a problem with is there a bugzilla or some other similar type of setup so we can see the outstanding bugs?

If there's already the incentive to work together, distribute strengths as necessary, and efficiently organize roles in order to solve the problem at hand and secure the prize?
It's not about the prizes. The prizes are just incentives to motivate people to get involved in the process. It's actually about building the best possible Mastercoin protocol that can be built. This protocol has to be something which can allow many businesses and developers to build on top of it. Think of the Mastercoin development team as being as important as the Mozilla development team or the Chrome or Linux development team. Those teams aren't organized around a web forum using bounties, they all have a combination of salaried developers paid by sponsors or volunteers. Study successful projects to find the right combination but from what I have seen there is a role for full time salaried developers.

The detriment of the salary is that when you have an official salaried "development team," it presents the idea that we already have the developers we need and we just need to wait and let them do work now that they are paid a salary. This is not conducive towards attracting new and possibly better talent!  
I don't get that idea at all. The Mastercoin project is so vast that even if you had 5 teams of 5 full time developers you'd still have so many trivial or experimental features to implement that you'd have room for bounties.

For example reputation should be built on top of the Mastercoin protocol and the core developers shouldn't be concerned with building reputation functionality. The core developers shouldn't have to be focused on little details of the user interface. The core developers should be doing the really difficult stuff that the rest of us cannot do. It should be highly specialized experts working on features which are truly hard and which require 12 hour days of contemplating, designing, coding, and bug testing. If you understand what is involved you'll know it's not something that can be considered part time work and it's not really bounty work. You cannot work on a bunch of other projects or have a full time job and do this on the side, you should be doing this full time and give total effort to it that it deserves.

additional thoughts:

quote from board emails:
Quote
Do you think that is fair? If you were a hopeful contestant and wanted to dedicate your skills towards a decentralized project?
Now, weigh that with its effectiveness. I think coalitions are great if the best developers we had right now got to call the shots on development, along with the freedom to not worry about their other financial obligations as much. Is there a way to encourage self-organizing coalitions so that we may still upkeep our promise of decentralization?
Decentralization makes sense, but you still need structure for development teams. You need a team leader, you need names for each team, you need focuses and objectives for each team and specialists.

I assume guys like Tachikoma will naturally end up leading such endeavours anyways. It just may be better to keep up with decentralization and perhaps this subtle difference in mechanism could mean a lot down the road, motivation and incentive-wise and all that.
Tachikoma knows a lot about the Mastercoin protocol as it currently is and on the parts he is working on. He cannot be expected to focus on every aspect. He probably should be team leader for the part he is working on, but what about all the other parts of the protocol spec left to be implemented?

I think you need team leaders so that when new people join in they can go and ask that person how stuff works, how the design should be, how the code should look, and what needs to be fixed. It's just in my opinion a bad idea to be decentralized and unorganized. You can be decentralized and fully organized.
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November 29, 2013, 12:23:25 AM
 #2239


2) I think that is up for the person who has to make the choice of deciding between longer-term commitment and the possible awesome rewards at this end of the rainbow.

You're obviously holding a double standard: why does the burden of responsibility fall on someone who wants to make a longer-term commitment, but the person who works for a bounty is blameless? Your personal prejudices are starting to show through.

Quote
You posit we scare away developers because we don't offer salaries. How do we even justify giving a newcomer a salary if they have had nothing to show for it before?

When someone applies for a full-time job, he most likely will submit a resume, demonstrating his experience, his skills, etc.. Are you suggesting that a resume is worthless? If the system of hiring full-time employees based on their previous experience were as uncertain and hare-brained as you make it out to be, then one would think that companies which follow such a procedure would face catastrophic results all the time!

Your counter-argument has nothing to do with whether we scare away developers. You have failed to actually engage with that point.

Quote

It's a risk that is made irrelevant when we have bounties for clear-cut criteria, which is true for developing the spec implementation.

Your attitude seems inconsistent: you want to avoid the risk of missing out on talent by not hiring full time developers, but you don't want to avoid the risk of missing out on talent by only offering bounties. It would be good if you could explain how you reconcile this contradiction.

Quote

Salaries add unnecessary complexity and questions to be answered that you do not have with bounties.

That salaries add complexity doesn't mean that that complexity is unnecessary. Indeed, it is disconcerting to see that a member of the board would let the simplicity of one option determine his opinion so completely, when it has been argued that the simple option gravely endangers the project.
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November 29, 2013, 12:41:07 AM
 #2240

Warning, mega-post ahead!
I skipped over a few posts when reading ... if there's something important I missed, let me know.

It should be said explicitly that Mastercoin's "first-mover advantage" - which JR mentions in his white paper - may disappear. Another project may hire full time developers, copy the Mastercoin code that has already been written, and complete its project before Mastercoin. This is not some highly improbable "worst case scenario", but a distinct possibility that everyone involved in Mastercoin should be concerned about.

This is not meant as a criticism of Mastercoin's current developers who, I know, are devoting what time they have to the project. What I write is directed at the board, which, in my view, is getting caught up in peripheral parts of the project, and is deferring judgment on questions of immediate importance. Rather than debating what currency we are going to pay developers in, we should hire developers!

EDIT: We should hire developers and, at least for now, simply ask them in what currency they would like to be paid.

+1 to hiring developers ASAP!
And not just developers. We need to build a solid all around team.

I am promoting this any way I can and nudging and pushing board members constantly about the need to keep accelerating.

Holidays are a big time sync-hole so everything is taking 5 times slower than it should.

Well, at least mastercoin has a few million dollars in it's development chest at this point. :-)

Maybe not for long, someone was talking buying Mastercoin with the Bitcoins fundraised, and paying the developers in Mastercoin. Pretty sure this would just harm the project. It will also create a pump from initially acquiring the Mastercoins, and then a dump when the developers sell them to pay their real life expenses.

I don't see this as a likely scenario. I am rather against doing this and I doubt we'll get a majority board vote to approve this.

+100. Nxt is just around the corner, and may beat Mastercoin to launching the D.Ex.

Yeah apparently scheduled to launch at the very beginning of January, 2014.  I don't know too much about NXT as I've only just looked into it, but their forums and users seem to be extremely active.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
Can someone please do a thorough analysis of Nxt (and any other relevant competitors e.g Invictus and Ripple), post this as a separate thread, and email that to info@mastercoin.org ? That would help us get a better understanding of our relative status.

The next 6 months are critical. I believe a project manager is needed, someone with technical knowledge and management skills, who can hire and motivate the right people. A lot is at stake and the existing resources should be deployed intelligently and narrowly (i.e., not to fund every idea, but to use the bulk on the fundamentals) to hire the very best people to lead this project. Success at an early stage will create valuable dev MSCs that can fund the project for years going forward. The board needs to take decisive action to get the right people working on this project full time. 

Agreed!

We have a position open for a project manager, and are talking with 1-2 potential candidates.
If you know any more, please send them our way ASAP!

Edit: at the same time, do we need a project manager? I'd like to ask the current developers their thoughts. Do self-organizing teams need/benefit from a top-down type of manager to get clear-cut objectives completed? I like to think that we just need the element of competition for truly grand prizes  to speed things up fastest.  If a manager indeed would help development, I would imagine a good manager would offer up their talents to a dev talent pool and put together a team. Bounties split as they're earned and as the team likes.

Again, thoughts?

I need a project manager.
I am finding myself with ever decreasing amount of free time (all dedicated to Mastercoin, strategic partnerships, hiring etc.), and I am losing touch with the state of the project. Please see the job posting and send us your resume if applicable!

Why not found a start-up company and hire 2 - 4 full time developers and 1 project manager? Moreover, I believe MSC could attract many capitals too.

I think the right choice is the one that makes JR to commit 100% of his time to the project. You can bet that competition will commit full resources of their founders to their project.

Half-measures are not good for such a project. If the "buy back" is needed for JR to go "all-in" in MSC, then I strongly vote for the buy back.

I do not believe that J.R.'s unwillingess to commit to the project has anything to do with funding.
For the public record I think that even if J.R. starts working full time for MSC, he should not take any additional equity or wage whatsoever.
I will similarly not take any further equity or payment for my work. Both of us already have enough MSC.

I have emailed J.R my plan for an effective way for him to quit his day job. TL;DR - hire a personal assistant and delegate delegate delegate any and all pains (e.g. how to sell MSC for USD) to him.

JR, however, has publicly stated he will spend more time with his family.

That's his complete right. In general when I'm hiring people for Mastercoin, I never state any expectations of hours, just the expectation of a "50% position", "100% position", or whatever. It is up to J.R to manage how much he believes his 100% should be in terms of hours, according to his preferences.

Many people have said that they think it is imperative for JR to be on the project full-time, yet I have not seen anyone provide a reason as to why his full-time commitment to Mastercoin is necessary. Presumably the community feels that since JR conceived Mastercoin it follows that its development is dependent on him. But it's one thing to conceive an idea and it's another thing to develop it. Does anyone have reason to believe the JR would be such an exceptionally good developer? Are we really so sure it would be impossible to find a developer of comparable skill?

I find the community's attitude towards JR untenable, and I partially blame JR for not being more direct with the community: either he believes his full-time help is necessary for the development of Mastercoin, in which case, if the community and the board agree, we should do what we can to get him on board full-time. If on the other hand JR doesn't think his full-time commitment to Mastercoin is necessary for development, he ought to say so explicitly, that way we can stop focusing on how to get him to commit to the project, and start focusing on the project itself!

In my opinion, JR obviously doesn't think his full-time commitment to the project is necessary for its success, otherwise, he wouldn't have published his white paper without any code, and wouldn't have explicitly said that for two years he tried to convince someone else to undertake this project.

I believe that J.R is currently one of the bottlenecks for this project.
Being the founder and a key board member, his input and vote is needed on a lot of issues, and we simply don't get enough J.R time right now.

I hope to be able to persuade him to change that and help us to maintain and increase our acceleration.

You have to be careful here with that kind of blind "firehose" strategy. As the developer behind "masterdaemon", which will soon be released, I will probably soon be the "5th" or "6th" developer. Why, in that case, should any of the other developers help me at all, if all I'm essentially doing is pulling money away from them? This kind of distribution scheme has a negative incentive to grow the dev community.

I mean, hell, I'd love to get this product out, sit around, and collect a "paycheck" in MSC dev funds, but I don't think that's very effective (speaking against my self-interest here). I would pay the active developers a smaller amount of MSC on an ongoing basis (on top of what you pay them in any kind of full-time salary, etc), and save at least half of that new amount every month for devs that release something NEW into the
community. This will incentivise people to develop new products and services for Mastercoin, and it will encourage new devs to join up (or existing devs to develop additional products/services), instead of making some un-inviting "money club" where all you're doing when you join up is taking away money from someone else. Coins awarded would be a subjective measure of how valuable the community finds this new product (we could even have a voting thread of mechanism for it).

I learned a lot of lessons starting and growing companies. I see a lot of these same mistakes being made (or being proposed) in this project. Especially when it comes to compensating and motivating developers/employees. Do we have anyone on the board that has "boots on the ground" operational experience growing profitable software/tech startups with more than 10 employees?

My hiring strategy is the following:

I want to attract and build 2-3 great development teams (preferably 2 ... 1 is too few, 3 is too sparse).
I want to hire the lead developers of these teams, and give them ample budget to hire more developers.

Consolidating fire power here is very important, otherwise we'll end up with 10 half working implementations instead of 2 really great ones.

I would rather we switch off the bounty system for these teams almost completely. There could be bounties in terms of bonuses, and there could not be (I would rather not commit on it right now). Instead I just want to offer them what I think are reasonable wages considering everything that's going on, and empower these 2 leads to build their teams correctly. There could be some intra-team work / joint infrastructure that might be managed in the form of bounties.

Note that what I consider is a reasonable wage is below market, possibly way below market wages.
I won't get into the details before we've had a chance to communicate exact figures to Devs, but I want to explain my reasoning:

1. Almost anyone working on the project is expected to either own or get paid in MSC, thus having a direct financial incentive to make the project terrific. This is akin to early stage startups which often pay less or way less than market.
2. The non-monetary rewards. I myself took a huge pay cut in my past when I quit Google after 5 months of work in order to work for a small startup. The lower wage was very significant for me then ... but looking back it really wasn't. The chance to work with really awesome people, contribute, learn and connect was worth the pay cut I took and more.

I will elaborate with more details about my plan after the board and devs have had time to sync on that in private.

Ron did have a proposal that for those who seek security, they can be paid a salary and either they'd be entirely unincluded from bounties or their salary amount would be deducted before the award (which makes more sense)

At the same time, these are my reservations:

1. It is favoritism. Every should have the same chance at the same prizes, disregard any previous history or expertise.

Yeah, we favor those who get in first, just like any startup. There is a super concrete benefit to that - we show them we reward their early enthusiasm with our trust.

All monthly contracts will have a 30 day termination clause, so if a developer isn't pulling his weight, the damage will be limited.

2. This favoritism places later contestants at a greater disadvantage than they already are. Aside from having to play catch up already, they now have to compete against those that don't have to work their day jobs through Mastercoin salaries, for a smaller portion of the pot that has already had slices allocated away for such salaries.

Then perhaps they should not compete with the leads, but rather join up to them and split the pie in some way with them.
Lead Devs will have a budget for building their team using whatever management style they want.
Later devs should team up with the Lead Devs - that is the entire point.

3. What do you think is more effective? Paying someone(s) a salary so they may forget their other financial obligations and focus full time, or placing a large enough bounty with good enough directions so that anyone can begin developing as they see fit, work together as they see fit, and quitting their jobs as they see fit? I lean towards the latter.

I prefer the low salary convertible to equity. This is simpler and more predictable for developers, and I find it hard to believe most developers would quit their day job for bounties that may or may not come. This is concrete ... and they need concrete in order to make that jump.

JR,  RON,  DAVID respectfully Undecided Undecided Undecided, we need full time devs ASAP!

As you see from my above replies, I fully fully fully agree and I can't stress this more.
Thanks for supporting this view, it helps me convince the board faster Smiley

+1. Would love to see similar engagement from the other board members!

Sorry for not spending much time on bitcointalk ... I really am working on many other Mastercoin related things ... trust me!
I just don't have as much time to spend on the forum. The single huge thread isn't helping either.

Just to give you a clue about how busy I am:

http://ripper234.com/p/so-i-dont-have-time-to-pick-a-personal-assistant/


Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
Mastercoin Executive Director
Co-founder of the Israeli Bitcoin Association
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