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[bigtop1967]

Why does the OrbitCoin website say NOT to download any newer client from here?  They say current client is 1.3.0, not 1.3.2

Which is correct?  Will these different clients mess up the network?

Site also says that normal mining will renumber after block 417000.

If I mine with my current client (1.3.0) I dont get many blocks, but they are all invalid or orphaned (which is what i was expecting until block 417000)

Can anyone clarify this?

[Mad_Max]

bigtop1967
Because owner of this site and original dev (he usually using the nickname TheRedMist) do a lot of mindless stupid things that led to that coin is dying now.
And now just afraid that people are moving to my version and he may lose control of the coin because of their own stupidity.

Yes it is a conflict between versions in the network. Not such a mess now, network was just split to 2 segment around a week ago (re-read last 2 pages in this thread) which now work independently and are not specifically interfere with each other (and even little help to each other, as the ~98% of blockchains are still the same blocks, so initial blockchain download can occur from any version online - its compatible until blocks around #413000-#414000 and later)
Part of the network use official versions where only PoS is working. This chain at block #416184 now and waiting for block #417000 mark
Other part of the network use my version (1.3.2) with working patch to PoW mining. This chain at block #436416 now already

And network will be splited once more at block #417000 After this point it will be 3 blockchain forks:
- formed by all user who still use any of previous official versions (1.0, 1.1, 1.2) (and in a network a lot of users even with v. 1.0 because of another stupidity or/and carelessness of RedMist - he can not even correctly update his own website so lot of people still downloading, install and use a version 1.0 instead of the latest)
- who decide to upgrade to "patched" official version (1.3.0), which actually not fix anything and will need next another patch/upgrade later which will be incompatible with any current version or 1.3.0
- who choose my version with really working patch (1.3.2) and PoW mining right now

And after RedMist pull his head out of his ass and finally will understand that what he had been told for weeks is truth - he will be forced to release another more version, not compatible with the all previous again. Causing another forking of blockchain once more.

So you just need to choose which version (and blockchain) to follow.

P.S.
I will do large post with a brief history of what was happening with OrbitCoin last month and all of my own actions later today.

[Mad_Max]

Here is complete story about last month of OrbitCoin from my point of view.

1. Big problems begins 30-31 December 2013 - ALL PoW mining fail (all miners start getting 100% reject rate)
All original clients currently used (1.0, 1.1, 1.2) can not mine PoW at all, and PoS mining was very weak and slow - due to a relative small number of users and the lack of motivation for PoS mining (as 0% interest rate for PoS miners is set by original dev)

2. Cause of this problem - some drawbacks of code and bad selection of basic parameters (constants) when lunch this coins (some additional detail in this and following posts https://cryptocointalk.com/topic/2684-theredmist/page-2#entry26484).

3. But original developer instead of looking for the cause of the problem and fix the code talked about the ongoing attacks on its currency and some Conspiracy against it and him personally (though not surprising - that coin from beginning especially for fans of various conspiracy theories made by one of the such fans). Evens after few users (who use this coins, including me) directly pointed him (on this forum, cryptocointalk and in private messages) to the problem areas in the code and possible corrections he held version of "attacks." and preferred just sit and wait - as attacks cease all will work.

4. This situation continued for 6 or 7 days. Until I released (here on bitcointalk) a version with my own variant of correction - v. 1.2.1 which instantly fix problems with PoW mining and proved that the problem in the code, not some mythical attacks. It was just test/demonstration version.

5. In few hours after it original dev (TheRedMist) released the official version with similar (but not exactly the same) correction - v. 1.3.0.
Where had gone the same argument about the attacks and conspiracy? I think this version was ready to advance before my, but adhered with a some unknown purpose...

But in his version (1.3.0) activation of fix is delayed to block #417000. Near 6000 blocks ahead at moment of release. Taking into account not working PoW mining(no PoW blocks at all) and low rates of PoS Mining (about 100 blocks per day, and a tendency to slow down) in real time it can take several months. It is good for a some planned upgrade, but unacceptable for urgent critical fixes!
Later (after ~week) was a huge speed up of PoS mining (thinks it RedMist start use large stakes from his premine to speed up reaching #417000 mark) so now(after ~2 weeks) we are close to #417000. But at original speed it will be like 1 or 2 month delay
 
6. And even more than that BIG delay - i take this code (from v.1.3.0) as a basis (in my another version - 1.3.1) and I found that this official fix actually does not fix the problem even after the designated block # 41700 - PoW Mining still will not work! Not sure about that if it was error because of lack of knowledge and programming skills or is a some kind of planned sabotage to PoW mining from original dev. (He holds in his hands most of the all coins issued by giant premine  and may not be interested in the new minting reducing his share - if no new coins minted he can do anything with the coin and the exchange rate at any time as they wish and it is a very comfortable position that can bring huge profits out of nothing).

I post information about official fix will not work(not resume PoW mining) to forum (on cryptocointalk and here) but it was ignored by dev (RedMist) for few days more. He just simply goes off-line for more than a week and stopped to answer any questions and messages.

7. So looking for this situation i make and release one more version with own (working) variant of fix (it actually same as was in my test version v. 1.2.1) - 1.3.2. This time not just binaries but opensource on GitHub as fork from original version 1.3.0 so anybody  can easily track all changes i made and make sure that my version is safe: https://github.com/MaxMaximus/Orbitcoin
Activation of my fix was delayed for ~ 200 blocks (~ 2 days) to allow time for interested users to check the code changed, compile, download the initial chain of blocks (if install from scratch). And call Orb user to update from official to my version if they want resume PoW mining and fast transactions(now they are slow - due to low rate of PoS mining) return back.

And now my version (1.3.2) work in parallel to official (1.0, 1.1, 1.2.0, 1.3.0).
Patch to fix PoW mining already activated, PoS mining working normal too. So we already pass block #417000 long ago.

At some point 2 blockchain seems already forked - I expected such a development of situation though not doing it specifically (initially my version fully synced with all old versions) and did not expect it to be so soon - we was just hit by another "bad" block with incorrect timestamps on the official blockchain  of that old official versions and my new fixed ver treated differently and therefore the all next blocks after this point were incompatible (blocks created in 1.3.2 not pass checks in older versions and created in the old ver not pass checks in new so they just ban each other after several unsuccessful attempts to synchronize)

P.S.
Initial i have no any plans of overtaking control of this coin. I am was just active user of this coin:
- i solo mined this coin on my own mining farm as it was a little more profitable if compared to LiteCoin or other well established alt_coins  
- i trading (speculating) with it on COINS-E and later on Criptsy
- i hold relative large amouts of this coin as part of my mid/long term investments (~ 5000-7000 coins it is near ~ 1.5-2 btc at moment of failure, but already 3-4 times less now due collapsed exchange rate due blunt and incompetent behavior of the original developer)

So i just want coin fixed as soon as possible and unhappy about weak and slow response of the original developer to such BIG problems

My short plan was:
1. determine the cause of coin failure - done
2. find bugs in code, fix(patch) it, release new fixed version both source (on GitHub) and binaries - done
3. draw attentions of all Orb users to problem and possible solution - almost done
4. to ensure that as many users as possible upgrade to my revised version instead of the official - in progress
5. convince exchanges to update their clients to my version too by longest blockchain and multiple request from different users of new ver - no progress for now (seems the original dev TheRedMist simply offered them a part of coins from his giant premine in exchange for that they will stick to his versions only)

I do not have long term plan though from beggining...
But now it seems the only way to fix this situation is to become the new dev of Orbitcoin instead of the original RedMist as he did not intend to any cooperate and only wants everybody "fuck off" (exact quote of his words) with their claims and complaints about the critical functions not working "only" a just a month (what a trifle compared with 4000 years as he say   ) and he lost communication "only for a week". And left him alone with a coin in his full disposal.

[bigtop1967]

Wow!

Thanks for the info!  A few more questions:

If I mine with your client, will I be able to transfer coins to cryptsy?

Is the duifficulty different with the different clients?

Can you just clarify - if I mine with the 1.3.0 client, are you saying I still wont get anything after block 417000?

Do all these forks basically mean we have different coins?

Thanks again for your help - what a shame a dev is being so uncooperative.....it's just not cricket!

[Lovok]

I'm afraid that 1.3.2 blockchain will never be accepted as there is still official 1.3 blockchain (maybe still broken but 'somehow' functional and used on exchanges). From my point of view, only this scenario is possible:
1. determine the cause of coin failure
2. convince exchanges to suspend exchanges - giving them facts from previous step - only this will force original author to really act
3. determine on which version to continue: official (if it become really fixed)/forked (if original author refuses to cooperate)
4. in case that forked version will be chosen, start building blockchan from the point where it progressed on official version until selection was done (else there is big problem when part of official blockchain gets discarded, and also everything mined on 1.3.2 turns into premine!)
5. exchanges adopt to version from previous steps

Anyway, I've setup 1.3.2 node for syncing to prove it works, but be warned that mining on 1.3.2 = wasting resources for nothing.

Code:

addnode=87.236.196.77

It's pity that even author of fixed version has technical facts on his side, everything else is still on original authors side. So point 2 of my scenario is crucial.

Maybe Mad_Max should make new thread for continuing discussion, because this thread with 'delete thread' will not bring ORB users here as it should.

[almightyruler]

Wow!

Thanks for the info!  A few more questions:

If I mine with your client, will I be able to transfer coins to cryptsy?

Not unless Cryptsy decides to recognise the fork and changes to the nonofficial chain. That's the biggie.

Can you just clarify - if I mine with the 1.3.0 client, are you saying I still wont get anything after block 417000?

The negative gap calculation is fixed in 1.3.0 so mining on the official chain should start working again at 417000. Until then only proof-of-stake blocks can be generated by clients.

I've noticed the rate of PoS generation has slowed down recently; possibly miners who are switching off their clients and walking away... or maybe those who have updated to the non official client and are on a different chain. This lower rate of PoS generation means it will take longer than expected to get to block 417000.

Code:

Number of PoS blocks per day:

1328 13-Jan-2014
 631 14-Jan-2014
 471 15-Jan-2014
 431 16-Jan-2014
 390 17-Jan-2014
 234 18-Jan-2014
 216 19-Jan-2014
 155 20-Jan-2014
 124 21-Jan-2014 (estimate)

[almightyruler]

I wrote a simple prog that works out the average time per PoS block over a sample range of the previous 10 to previous 100 blocks, then uses those averages to estimate how long it will be until block 417000.

Current estimate range: 36.9 to 70.8 hours

[almightyruler]

I've just noticed the logical/bitwise mixup in the fix on the official client.   Too tired to work out how this bug/mistake will play out... but I guess PoW mining past the 417000 fork is either going to fail immediately, or work for a bit then fail.

We'll find out soon enough.


edit: block 417000 reached approx 50 mins ago. It appears to have failed immediately. Back to square one.

[Mad_Max]

Wow!
Thanks for the info!  A few more questions:

- If I mine with your client, will I be able to transfer coins to cryptsy?
- Is the duifficulty different with the different clients?
- Can you just clarify - if I mine with the 1.3.0 client, are you saying I still wont get anything after block 417000?
- Do all these forks basically mean we have different coins?

Thanks again for your help - what a shame a dev is being so uncooperative.....it's just not cricket!

Answers to these questions are actually already given if you read attentively the previous messages. Or you not understand something in my posts?
Well again briefly:

- No, you can not transfer fresh mined coins to cryptsy right now. You can transfer them only to those who also uses this version. Accordingly transfer to the exchanges will be possible only when (if) it upgrade to the new version too - then coins mined now can be transfered and traded. For now only p2p trade is possible.
I have already sent such the request to both exchanges where ORB traded. But i need to be supported by other users to show there they want to use at exchange new updated client instead of the broken official too, and it is not just only my wish.
So send a message (via tickets or email) with such a request on own behalf.
You can refer to my ticket #62004 on criptsy (where I gave a detailed account of the situation to administration) or to this thread in you message to shorten your request
  
- YES and NO simultaneously.
Formally as now the blockchain is also forked yes - the difficulty in each chain is different. But in fact from the end of last year, PoW mining is working only in my version, so that there is only one difficulty in practice. It floats as usual depending on the amount and activity of miners in the range about from 400 to 2000 (0.006 to 0.03)
And the difficulty of the official version it makes no any sense - what is shown as the difficulty in official client and the different monitoing sites(as they use official ver too) is just frozen value(= 4137) from December 30/31, which has not changed because no one could obtain a single PoW block since.

- Yes it what i say last 2 weeks.
And as block #41700 was already reached today you can check this yourself. Or read posts in this threads:
https://cryptocointalk.com/topic/2736-looks-like-orbitcoin-will-resume-at-block-417000-in-the-meantime-do-not-use-unofficial-fork/page-6
https://cryptocointalk.com/topic/3464-its-nearly-block-417000-please-update-to-orb-version-13-once-reached/page-2
where many users of the official version wrote they do not see any positive changes after 417000 as i pedicted long ago (it was relative easy - i just test and debug official code so can forecast how it will be working after patch activation). Although exist possibility that the original developer(RedMist) has already prepared another working version, which he will now begin to use for himself and/or friends. But the version that is laid out in public access by them as official "fix" - does still not work with the PoW even after target block.

- Not really. Rather are 2 versions of the same coin. Which may merge back into one later. Or one wins and the other die. Or continue to exist both in parallel. Time (and your actions including too) will show.

[Mad_Max]

The negative gap calculation is fixed in 1.3.0 so mining on the official chain should start working again at 417000. Until then only proof-of-stake blocks can be generated by clients.

I've noticed the rate of PoS generation has slowed down recently; possibly miners who are switching off their clients and walking away... or maybe those who have updated to the non official client and are on a different chain. This lower rate of PoS generation means it will take longer than expected to get to block 417000.

Code:

Number of PoS blocks per day:

1328 13-Jan-2014
 631 14-Jan-2014
 471 15-Jan-2014
 431 16-Jan-2014
 390 17-Jan-2014
 234 18-Jan-2014
 216 19-Jan-2014
 155 20-Jan-2014
 124 21-Jan-2014 (estimate)

You as a programmer could understand before, that will be no significant changes after 417000 as negative gap not fixed properly


Nope. If you rebuild your statistic(please do so and post here) from beginning of this year you will see what PoS mining rate was low from start.
Until RedMist not go back online ( do not know where he was - he wrote something about a trip to Bulgaria...) and was scared by users transition from him to my unofficial version he greatly sped up the rate of PoS mining. Not sure how exactly but time and reason coincide exactly and point to him - possibly by using big stocks of coins from premine (with large stakes of coins PoS blocks are mined much faster / easier even with single client running) or just start runing all their wallets on different machines 24/7 and asked to do the same friends and acquaintances to reduce the time to reach block #417,000.
Otherwise at the initial rate it would take up to 1.5 months to reach this target. As we approach the given point just drop their support and network returned to its "normal" state as it was at the beginning of the year.
So actually we hit 417000 earlier than originally expected (at the release time of version 1.3.0)

P.S.
And now (after 417000) i see additional users updates to my ver (by activity in network - clients with new ip and downloading blocks starting from #417000 and from #0). Do not saw such activity in last ~3-4 days before #417000.

[bigtop1967]

Wow!
Thanks for the info!  A few more questions:

- If I mine with your client, will I be able to transfer coins to cryptsy?
- Is the duifficulty different with the different clients?
- Can you just clarify - if I mine with the 1.3.0 client, are you saying I still wont get anything after block 417000?
- Do all these forks basically mean we have different coins?

Thanks again for your help - what a shame a dev is being so uncooperative.....it's just not cricket!

Answers to these questions are actually already given if you read attentively the previous messages. Or you not understand something in my posts?
Well again briefly:

- No, you can not transfer fresh mined coins to cryptsy right now. You can transfer them only to those who also uses this version. Accordingly transfer to the exchanges will be possible only when (if) it upgrade to the new version too - then coins mined now can be transfered and traded. For now only p2p trade is possible.
I have already sent such the request to both exchanges where ORB traded. But i need to be supported by other users to show there they want to use at exchange new updated client instead of the broken official too, and it is not just only my wish.
So send a message (via tickets or email) with such a request on own behalf.
You can refer to my ticket #62004 on criptsy (where I gave a detailed account of the situation to administration) or to this thread in you message to shorten your request
  
- YES and NO simultaneously.
Formally as now the blockchain is also forked yes - the difficulty in each chain is different. But in fact from the end of last year, PoW mining is working only in my version, so that there is only one difficulty in practice. It floats as usual depending on the amount and activity of miners in the range about from 400 to 2000 (0.006 to 0.03)
And the difficulty of the official version it makes no any sense - what is shown as the difficulty in official client and the different monitoing sites(as they use official ver too) is just frozen value(= 4137) from December 30/31, which has not changed because no one could obtain a single PoW block since.

- Yes it what i say last 2 weeks.
And as block #41700 was already reached today you can check this yourself. Or read posts in this threads:
https://cryptocointalk.com/topic/2736-looks-like-orbitcoin-will-resume-at-block-417000-in-the-meantime-do-not-use-unofficial-fork/page-6
https://cryptocointalk.com/topic/3464-its-nearly-block-417000-please-update-to-orb-version-13-once-reached/page-2
where many users of the official version wrote they do not see any positive changes after 417000 as i pedicted long ago (it was relative easy - i just test and debug official code so can forecast how it will be working after patch activation). Although exist possibility that the original developer(RedMist) has already prepared another working version, which he will now begin to use for himself and/or friends. But the version that is laid out in public access by them as official "fix" - does still not work with the PoW even after target block.

- Not really. Rather are 2 versions of the same coin. Which may merge back into one later. Or one wins and the other die. Or continue to exist both in parallel. Time (and your actions including too) will show.

Thanks - I just wanted to have a really clear picture of whats going on, as i'm sure others do.   I appreciate you taking the time to fully explain it - as i'm sure others do too.

[almightyruler]

You as a programmer could understand before, that will be no significant changes after 417000 as negative gap not fixed properly

Yes, I had seen you mentioning that things would still not work past block 417000 for the official release, but I didn't understand exactly what that meant until I happened to look at the source about 10 hours before it hit 417000. The problem is that he's used a bitwise & operator rather than a logical && operator, right? I pointed this out to him in a thread on cryptocointalk but he seems to have ignored that, instead suggesting it's the network fighting it out.

I don't know whether to bother recompiling to show him that the one little extra "&" in the source will fix PoW mining, or just sit on my hands and wait for the exchanges to go for your chain instead.

[Mad_Max]

2 almightyruler
You need deeper look in code, young padawan  

Yeah, his mind seems so overflooded by various conspiracy theories that it no longer remains a place for good portion of logic, analysis and programming skills    So recompiling to show him that it is a just error/glitch will not work likely. I already try such thing(and offer to other ORB users do so)  - not helps. Actually all my current fork began from such an demonstration attempt (read my stories above)
And if you continue to post to him about errors in code again and again he will probably thinks what you are just my clone or one of the members of the hidden group organized by me specifically to destroy his beloved currency  
There must be in the end at least some conspiracy!

But "just sit on my hands and wait for the exchanges to go for your chain instead" not an option too. A rolling stone gathers no moss
At least post some request to both exchanges (as i described in previous post to bigtop1967) from you behalf too.

And i think it is time to start building some infrastructure for new(current) fork.
May be u can start online block explorer for new ver? Seems you have needed skills.
Because currently no any block explorers at all. Even official one is broken now: https://andarazoroflove.org/explorer/orbitcoin/block_crawler.php
(it fail few days ago before block #417000, not sure why)

I can do such things myself but have a lack of time last days...
I can even offer award (bounty) for it to keep things more interest. Say 300 ORB coins for start.
It will be from new(my) fork. So in principle, anyone can mine their own right now, but 300 coins is equivalent to 1200 PoW blocks mined (+some orphans and rejects).
Even with the current very minimal difficulty it will take few days of mining on average GPU (or u need bring powerfull mining farm)

P.S.
It is not dedicated to almightyruler only. If anybody other want start block explorer with my ver running - it is OK too - i will send "bounty" after it will start working.

[Mad_Max]

New warning
Users with IP  68.195.138.61 and 76.95.191.10 seems you need redownload blockchain - your client can not sync properly.

And i thinks  now understand  where clients with the wrong chain (not official and not mine) are coming from - what was described in these posts:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=265555.msg4529236#msg4529236
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=265555.msg4539010#msg4539010
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=265555.msg4539254#msg4539254

Seems it is not some of self isolated clients due connectivity problems as i thought before but users who upgrades from any official versions to my 1.3.2 many blocks after point of blockchain fork without database reset.
As forking point is passed relative long ago clients fail to rollback blockchain to point of fork correctly(seems it another bug in ORB code are not identified yet) and try to download blocks again and again in infinite loop. (dowload some blocks, fail to insert it to database, discard, download again and so on...)
And if somebody try to mine with such client it will fork own blockchain to network instead of joining an existing!

So warning to all
If you do upgrade from any official version to my version you need OR re-download blockchain from scratch (stop client, delete blk0001.dat blkindex.dat and "database" folder, start client or just point it to another separate empty data folder with -datadir= option) before any try to mine or send/receive coins.
Or as alternative - if you have any backups with datafolder of client where block count is any below <412000 you can roll back to this position as blockchains are 100% identical before this position.
It will save a lot of time and traffic to sync(as you will need download and verify only ~40-50k blocks instead of  ~450k) and also should fix the problems with sync.

[Pearf]

How can i tell that i am on the right chain? Is cryptsy on the right chain? If not mining this coin is rather pointless...

[Lhumeur]

official fork does not work. this fork never traded...

[Mad_Max]

How can i tell that i am on the right chain? Is cryptsy on the right chain? If not mining this coin is rather pointless...

There are no "right chain" now any more.
We have 2 main chain (actually 3 already)
- broken the official (a developer tried to fix it in 1.3.0 but once again screwed up as I predicted). But it in use by exchanges so called "official" and about half or even more users still use this ver
- original old official(broken too) chain - formed by all users who still not upgrade(not to my ver 1.3.2 not to latest official 1.3.0) and still use any of old versions (1.0, 1.1, 1.2)
- my fixed chain which up and running about 2 weeks. But it is not used by exchanges so you can not trade with new mined coins on them (but can p2p trade of course)

1st and 2nd still have no PoW working and now around 419.000-420.000 blocks.
2nd chain is definitely dying now. and 1st and 3rd is in competition for to become the main

My chain now at this position (456.906 blocks) because running both PoW + PoS:

Code:

new best=0000005a9dcdd35ebebe81a6942d8fecc5b8d22760bee1a7ac177e25b039659a  height=456906  trust=20489571660  date=27.01.2014 00:57:13

[Mad_Max]

official fork does not work. this fork never traded...

Yeah, you right.

But we can remedy last situation(never traded) a bit.  

If anyone wants to sell the coins mined in my version (including those who complained on CryptoCoinTalk about that I "cheated" them by touting to my version where they mined some coins, but can not sell on the exchanges - though I warned about this situation from the beginning) can sell NEW coins to me directly.
Paying a little (compared to the official ORB rate on the exchange) but these coins are now very easy to get! (as mining difficulty is low - right now while i am writing this post only ~500 or 0.0076)
My price now is 2 USD (or equivalent in LTC) per 100 new ORB coins
I can pay both in dollars and krypto.
Not sure what the best payment system for Fiat? May be PayPal? I also use OKPAY / QIWI / Webmoney if anyone want them.

If someone want offer more(higher price) - welcome, just post offer here

note:
I will accept only new coins (created after fork), please do not try to send me old coins from old chain - remember in cryptocoins world all transactions and coins history is public (stored in blockchain and not encrypted) so i can easily track back which coins you send me

And think carefully before making a decision
- if my fork win (will be adopted by the majority of users and exchanges in the end), these coins will cost many times more (probably even tens times more). the probability is not high, but it is possible and i will do my best in this goal
- on the other hand if it does not - they will cost nothing at all(zero).
This is a "high risk / high gain" scenario. So the decision is yours.

[almightyruler]

You can still send and receive ORB on the 'official' chain - I was able to withdraw from Cryptsy, and it was after the 41700 fork. You just can't mine on the official chain.

Mad_Max's offer to buy ORB from his 'unofficial' chain does sound interesting. As he said, it's high risk... if Cryptsy decides to adopt that chain, the coins will be instantly worth about 5X what he's offering, and the value will probably go up once people can start mining again. Conversely, if Cryptsy sticks with the original dev (I'm a bit hesitant to use the term 'dev' because I don't think TheRedMist is a programmer), your coins will be almost worthless.

Thumbs up to MM for putting his money where his mouth is, shows he has faith in the future of his fork...

[Lhumeur]

Mad_Max, what exactly is being done to ensure that this chain has been recognized by the official?
What are the chances of it and how we can help?