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Poll
Question: What is your opinion of the Maximum role of Government in society?
Absolute: Government should control all services and prices. - 4 (4.7%)
Moderate: the Government should control some services, and not others (explain) - 23 (26.7%)
Minimal: The Government should limit itself to courts and military. - 32 (37.2%)
None: All services and goods should be provided privately (or collectively). - 27 (31.4%)
Total Voters: 85

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Author Topic: Maximum role of Government?  (Read 23127 times)
Anonymous
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July 12, 2011, 10:40:02 PM
 #361

It's not like it has a choice now. It could be tossed around a ring of mediocre foster parents.
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July 12, 2011, 10:41:28 PM
 #362

It's not like it has a choice now. It could be tossed around a ring of mediocre foster parents.

Irrelevant strawman.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
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July 12, 2011, 10:42:56 PM
 #363

No, there aren't other lifeboats and I didn't know the guy was a knife juggler, let alone a knife juggler crazy enough to start juggling knives in a lifeboat at sea.

Now what?


I'm a crack baby born with a laundry list of medical conditions to a drug addicted mother that doesn't give two shits about me.  Where's my choice in that scenario?

1. You got on a cruise ship with only 1 lifeboat? There's your bad choice, right there.

2. Child. no child has any choice in it's parentage. Nice try though.

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Anonymous
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July 12, 2011, 10:44:20 PM
 #364

It's not like it has a choice now. It could be tossed around a ring of mediocre foster parents.

Irrelevant strawman.
So was your argument. Let's just hit it where it lies.
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July 12, 2011, 10:45:06 PM
 #365

Yes, it is a choice. For one, in the lifeboat scenario, there are other lifeboats. Trade.

For another, you can always choose to die. Just because death is on the option list does not make it 'not a choice'.

In the first example you have to be able to predict the future to know that someone is going to do stupid things. You don't have perfect information and have to decide from the information at hand. That doesn't mean that everything that happens after that choice is "tough luck, you chose poorly".

Ok, not a real choice then. "Give me your money or I kill you" doesn't mean I have more than one option. Not for a sane person anyway.

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July 12, 2011, 10:46:09 PM
 #366

No, there aren't other lifeboats and I didn't know the guy was a knife juggler, let alone a knife juggler crazy enough to start juggling knives in a lifeboat at sea.

Now what?


I'm a crack baby born with a laundry list of medical conditions to a drug addicted mother that doesn't give two shits about me.  Where's my choice in that scenario?

1. You got on a cruise ship with only 1 lifeboat? There's your bad choice, right there.

2. Child. no child has any choice in it's parentage. Nice try though.

1. Never said the ship only had one lifeboat.  I said only one was available.  Bottom line: uncontrollable circumstance often eliminates choice.

2. Bingo, there isn't ALWAYS a choice.

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Anonymous
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July 12, 2011, 10:48:21 PM
 #367

So, let's enslave people and give them choice by force.

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July 12, 2011, 10:51:43 PM
 #368

So, let's enslave people and give them choice by force.

Or free them and deny them any choice?

Welcome back by the way. I thought you quit. Or deleted the Atlas persona anyway.

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July 12, 2011, 10:53:29 PM
 #369

In the first example you have to be able to predict the future to know that someone is going to do stupid things. You don't have perfect information and have to decide from the information at hand. That doesn't mean that everything that happens after that choice is "tough luck, you chose poorly".

Ok, not a real choice then. "Give me your money or I kill you" doesn't mean I have more than one option. Not for a sane person anyway.

Yup. Welcome to real life.

The second one is a violation of the NAP and you still have a choice: Defend yourself.

No, there aren't other lifeboats and I didn't know the guy was a knife juggler, let alone a knife juggler crazy enough to start juggling knives in a lifeboat at sea.

Now what?


I'm a crack baby born with a laundry list of medical conditions to a drug addicted mother that doesn't give two shits about me.  Where's my choice in that scenario?

1. You got on a cruise ship with only 1 lifeboat? There's your bad choice, right there.

2. Child. no child has any choice in it's parentage. Nice try though.

1. Never said the ship only had one lifeboat.  I said only one was available.  Bottom line: uncontrollable circumstance often eliminates choice.

2. Bingo, there isn't ALWAYS a choice.

1. lie.

2. Strawman.


Seriously, how much to make you go away forever? You will get practically whatever number you name, I can almost guarantee it.

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Anonymous
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July 12, 2011, 10:57:23 PM
 #370

So, let's enslave people and give them choice by force.

Or free them and deny them any choice?

Welcome back by the way. I thought you quit. Or deleted the Atlas persona anyway.

It's an oxymoron. You can choose to not decide but you still have made a choice. We only limit more choice by forcing others to give people guaranteed opportunity. Somebody has to lose when violence is the decider.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnxkfLe4G74

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July 12, 2011, 11:00:07 PM
 #371

So, let's enslave people and give them choice by force.




Irrelevant strawman.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
Anonymous
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July 12, 2011, 11:01:13 PM
 #372

So, let's enslave people and give them choice by force.




Irrelevant strawman.
I think it represents your side accurately.
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July 12, 2011, 11:03:39 PM
 #373

In the first example you have to be able to predict the future to know that someone is going to do stupid things. You don't have perfect information and have to decide from the information at hand. That doesn't mean that everything that happens after that choice is "tough luck, you chose poorly".

Ok, not a real choice then. "Give me your money or I kill you" doesn't mean I have more than one option. Not for a sane person anyway.

Yup. Welcome to real life.

The second one is a violation of the NAP and you still have a choice: Defend yourself.


I live in the real world. I'm hoping to drag you into it.  Grin
And why does lack of information disqualify me from protecting myself after a bad choice? Not knowing I was associating myself with a high-risk person doesn't deny me the right to prevent that risky behaviour until a time I can leave the person/situation.

Yeah, I know. Defence and all that. I was thinking more of a gun-to-the-head situation. Death or his choice isn't a real choice.

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AyeYo
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July 12, 2011, 11:04:59 PM
 #374

1. lie.

2. Strawman.

I don't think you know what a strawman is.  You just identified an area in which choice does not exist, thus proving my point that there is not ALWAYS a choice.  Roll Eyes


Again, the bottom line is that circumstances very often dictate matters and eliminate choice.  There is no way around this.


Addtionally, I guess you don't see the blatant hypocricy in explaining away all negative scenarios with "well you could just choose to die instead" and then turning around and crying about what a poor victim of coercion you are in this current system and how you're extorted and robbed by men with guns.  You have a choice too, and it's not even do or die, GTFO.  Therefore, based on your own logic that you're using right now, you have no grounds from which to bitch and moan about our current system's supposed coercion and force.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
JA37
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July 12, 2011, 11:08:00 PM
 #375

It's an oxymoron. You can choose to not decide but you still have made a choice. We only limit more choice by forcing others to give people guaranteed opportunity. Somebody has to lose when violence is the decider.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnxkfLe4G74



You're trying to scare me away with shitty music?

Yeah, I didn't think your statement made any sense either.

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Anonymous
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July 12, 2011, 11:09:47 PM
 #376

What entitles a man to a set amount of choices? Are we advocating minimum choice legislation now?
AyeYo
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July 12, 2011, 11:15:50 PM
 #377

What entitles a man to a set amount of choices? Are we advocating minimum choice legislation now?

You're the one with the system that's based on the right to choose freely.  You do nothing but bitch, moan, and spew hyperbole about your lack of choice in the current system, but more and more it's being revealed that your sysetm is the one leaving people choiceless.  You cannot choose freely if you have no choice or if all your choices are ultimatums.

Again your system proves itself incapable of dealing with a complex real world.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
myrkul
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July 12, 2011, 11:22:30 PM
 #378

I don't think you know what a strawman is.  You just identified an area in which choice does not exist, thus proving my point that there is not ALWAYS a choice.  Roll Eyes

I don't think you know what a valid argument is. Present to me one, one scenario where an adult has no choice in his actions, and I will concede the point.

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July 12, 2011, 11:26:22 PM
 #379

I don't think you know what a strawman is.  You just identified an area in which choice does not exist, thus proving my point that there is not ALWAYS a choice.  Roll Eyes

I don't think you know what a valid argument is. Present to me one, one scenario where an adult has no choice in his actions, and I will concede the point.
You live in a deterministic universe?  Wink
myrkul
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July 12, 2011, 11:33:55 PM
 #380

I don't think you know what a strawman is.  You just identified an area in which choice does not exist, thus proving my point that there is not ALWAYS a choice.  Roll Eyes

I don't think you know what a valid argument is. Present to me one, one scenario where an adult has no choice in his actions, and I will concede the point.
You live in a deterministic universe?  Wink

Well, if that's the case, then ALL this discussion is moot. Tongue

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