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Author Topic: [BTC-TC] BTC Growth: Capital Growth via Hedge Fund-Style Investing  (Read 251647 times)
Esh
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August 05, 2013, 12:50:17 PM
 #21

Greg

Thanks for the quick and thoughtful response. I look forward to your final prospectus.
DrGregMulhauser (OP)
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August 05, 2013, 01:39:49 PM
 #22

Think I'd dodge all of them.  An 8% return with a 50% chance of a 20% loss still has a negative expectation (of around 2% - depending on what the 20% is of)...

Agreed; I stripped out quite a few provisos and qualifiers here (and also with the options example earlier), but the example was meant only to show that choosing from the three on the basis of 'growth' alone could give a result that might not match up with the choice you would make if you had more information available about risk.

There's another issue with compiling an index and comparing to it as well.  There's a large difference in the way various securities determine what profits are and decide on the size of dividends...

Yes, it's clearly total returns that really matter.

1.  How large do you believe the fund could grow considering the general lack of liquidity in BTC-denominated securities?  There's effectively a maximum amount you can invest in any single security whilst maintaining any degree of liqudiity...

Absolutely: all hedge fund-style investments, including those in the fiat world, face the problem of balancing their size with their strategy. I.e., at a certain point, bigger is no longer better, because they cannot efficiently put the capital to work.

As for this fund in particular, it's difficult to project into the future of an environment with such tremendous growth and uncertainty. Seeing as it's intended to be exchange traded, however, the fund would at least have some flexibility to adjust its size via the subscription/redemption facility.

2.  If you want to make fees behave similar to a 2/20 model with annual fees then shouldn't your trailing HWM cover at least 12 months?

I gave this quite a bit of thought before settling on the 3 month compromise. For a fund which simply raises capital, closes, and then begins investing, it makes sense for the high water mark either to be permanent or to be tallied over quite a long period. For a fund traded on an exchange, it's quite a bit different, because each participant in the fund may have a different entry point in terms of NAV per share. Since it's not practical to keep track of a high water mark for each individual participant in the fund, it makes sense for it to 'decay' in same fashion -- thus the trailing 3 month period which, again, is really a compromise for the context, rather than something which is clearly the 'right' way of handling it.

3.  Do you view mining operations in general as being BTC denominated, fiat denominated or a mix of the two?

This rapidly gets complex, which is why the original document sweeps most of that complexity under the carpet and just refers to the BTC-denominated NPV of the resulting free revenue stream. By focusing on the NPV of the revenue stream, we're ignoring the sunk costs of hardware -- and there's good reason for doing that, given that the 'S' in 'ASIC' implies modern hardware ultimately has zero residual value for any other purpose -- and we're also ignoring any future fiat-denominated costs for hardware to be purchased by reinvesting the BTC-denominated revenue stream. (Making this simplification only works at all if you're looking to invest BTC in the first place, as distinct from looking to invest in mining using fiat.) As I say, this is all an imperfect simplification of something which I acknowledge is complex.

And if I'm correctly understanding the meaning behind your question -- namely, not so much what we call it, but how to analyze the outcome with respect to an original investment denominated in Bitcoin or in fiat -- then this simplification alone isn't enough, and we need to know more about how the underlying business works. I take it that a business which is riding their existing hardware investment until the return hits zero is a different beast than one which is investing a load of fiat to create a new chip to begin mining at some point in the future. The former makes it much easier to apply the simplification than the latter.

4.  You say you won't disclose your personal finances - which is fine.  But will you commit to your own shares in the fund also being included in those listed on the exchange - so investors can readily see total outstanding units and market cap?

All share investments would be treated equally, and as far as I'm aware the exchanges keep the information up to date which they display about shares outstanding.

5.  Can you confirm that you won't invest (as opposed to trade) significantly in other investment/hedge funds?  Have seen a few cases before of circle-jerking whereby funds invest in other funds - delegating their management responsibility whilst making investors liable to taxation (in the form of management fees) by multiple fund managers (or even the same fund manager twice).

There would be no advantage -- and, as you've pointed out, plenty of disadvantages -- to investing in another fund whose exposure could simply be replicated directly. It's not quite as straightforward as simply never investing in another fund, however, since in some cases that exposure might not be so easy to replicate directly. For example, if someone were to float a private equity fund, the fact that it was another fund wouldn't by itself be a compelling reason not to invest -- since the private equity exposure of the fund could be difficult or impossible to replicate.

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DrGregMulhauser (OP)
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August 05, 2013, 01:42:23 PM
 #23

Just wanted to say I have nothing but respect for those with the guts to offer more investment options for the community. There is no doubt in my mind that with your intellect you will overcome any challenges that you may face.

That is a mindblowing OP that shows you have literally thought of every base. Even if the unanticipated happens - and hey, it will (its bitcoin after all), its reassuring to know that somebody who has the credentials that you have is behind it.

To diversify my investments I'd happily invest a few bitcoins into this. Sign me up.

Many thanks for your support -- I appreciate it!  Smiley

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busidelinghun
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August 06, 2013, 08:24:48 AM
 #24

do u have offical website?
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August 06, 2013, 11:01:40 AM
 #25

do u have offical website?

The skeleton site mentioned in the original post is BTCGrowth.com; the canonical listing documents will be available shortly on BTCT.co and the original post updated accordingly.

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August 06, 2013, 01:32:20 PM
 #26

The draft of the fund document has been slightly updated and is now available in its entirety at the exchange:

https://btct.co/security/BTC-GROWTH

Please refer to the full document for all details, including risk factors and FAQ.

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August 06, 2013, 05:04:27 PM
 #27

 Grin

This is gonna be exciting..I can't wait
DrGregMulhauser (OP)
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August 07, 2013, 09:08:30 AM
 #28

Grin

This is gonna be exciting..I can't wait

Many thanks for your support, damiano; next up we'll just need some attention from the exchange and the moderators who serve as gatekeepers between submissions and listings.

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eltopo
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August 07, 2013, 10:43:49 AM
 #29

Interesting asset.

It seems that you could have some connections to clarify some aspects around the issues mentioned here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269486.0

Can you please explain how you are going to deal with the legal things?
DrGregMulhauser (OP)
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August 07, 2013, 11:09:55 AM
 #30

Can you please explain how you are going to deal with the legal things?

As indicated in the listing document, we are aiming to provide a service to the exchange. If there are other comments to be made from an exchange perspective regarding "the legal things", in addition to what burnside has already posted in the other thread you mentioned, I imagine he will make them there in that thread.

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busidelinghun
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August 07, 2013, 12:26:59 PM
 #31

when do I could buy shares at BTCT?
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August 07, 2013, 05:28:31 PM
 #32

when do I could buy shares at BTCT?

The exchange operators will need first to unlock the listing, in preparation for attention from the moderators who serve as gatekeepers between submissions and listings.

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August 07, 2013, 06:30:11 PM
 #33

Thanks Greg,
I haven't reviewed the prospectus yet I've just read the OP and comments.
Before I do I would value your input on the following questions:
  • Why have you personally decided to do this?
  • What does success for BTC-TC look like to you?
  • How will you know when you have met your personal goal of why you are doing this?
  • Have you defined a succession or an exit strategy for BTC-TC in the prospectus?

Thanks again

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
DrGregMulhauser (OP)
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August 07, 2013, 07:34:53 PM
 #34

  • Why have you personally decided to do this?

I've had an interest in investing for a long time and an interest in Bitcoin for an unfortunately longer time than I have been actively involved with it. (Why 'unfortunately'? Because when I first read about Bitcoin in 2011, I thought it was an ingenious idea that would ultimately prove to be utterly useless as an actual currency, and I didn't return to it for another two years. I suspect there are others out there who share that kick-myself-later experience.)

In addition to those two interests, the way Bitcoin is currently regarded by the UK government -- specifically, treating gains as irrelevant from a tax perspective until they are converted to fiat -- provides an opportunity to do things, such as providing a low-friction fund management service, which I otherwise could not do at all without creating a whole new corporate structure, with all the additional expense and administrative overhead that would require. In other words, this is a way for me to give that a try without all the additional accoutrements that would otherwise be required.

  • What does success for BTC-TC look like to you?

Success for the exchange -- wow, that's a big question! Personally, I'd like to see it 1) become legally bulletproof -- not legally avoidant, but legally bulletproof, compliant with whatever needs to be complied with, etc. -- and 2) introduce market making services for both listed securities and options, either by becoming the counterparty to all trades itself, or by retaining others to provide market making. In other words, to my mind, success for the exchange means providing the foundations that people need to make real Bitcoin investing much more efficient than it is now.

  • How will you know when you have met your personal goal of why you are doing this?

Almost none of my new business endeavours have ever been undertaken with a specific personal goal in mind; rather, they're undertaken to learn, explore, adapt, and attempt to grow into a niche -- but without any of that codified into specific goals. (When I'm trying to learn about something, for example, I rarely reach a point where I think "great, I've learned it -- now what?".) That doesn't mean I just go off in random directions, of course, without tactical targets or longer term strategies; I do have both. But what it means is that I have no more of an answer for your question about this in particular than I would have if you had asked it about any of my other business efforts.

  • Have you defined a succession or an exit strategy for BTC-TC in the prospectus?

The listing document mentions a minimum participation level and closing the fund as a matter of exiting positions gracefully and returning NAV to participants. I would not envision passing the fund on to another manager.

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August 08, 2013, 12:14:52 AM
 #35

...
opportunity to do things, such as providing a low-friction fund management service, which I otherwise could not do
...
become legally bulletproof -- not legally avoidant, but legally bulletproof, compliant with whatever needs to be complied with, etc.
...

answers appreciated.
just do not forget that government(s) can change the mind in (un)predictable way
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August 08, 2013, 10:27:12 AM
 #36

just do not forget that government(s) can change the mind in (un)predictable way

I'm sure that governments can and will change their collective minds about how best to handle Bitcoin; rapid change in the Bitcoin landscape more generally is just something we should assume. However, this seems to me to be a larger and broader issue, rather than a being a concern which is specifically focused on this fund or that fund, this exchange or that exchange.

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August 08, 2013, 11:36:06 AM
 #37

“Outstanding 0 / 1000000 Issued” @0.1
How many shares are you going to release? Round 1? 2?

 Huh

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August 08, 2013, 11:46:52 AM
 #38

“Outstanding 0 / 1000000 Issued” @0.1
How many shares are you going to release? Round 1? 2?

The asset is now awaiting unlocking by the operators of the exchange, in preparation for attention from the moderators who serve as gatekeepers between submissions and listings.

Please see the section of the document headed "Initial Offering, Minimum Participation Level, and Fund Closure" and "Subscriptions and Redemptions" for more details on the release of shares.

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August 08, 2013, 12:10:31 PM
 #39

“Outstanding 0 / 1000000 Issued” @0.1
How many shares are you going to release? Round 1? 2?

The asset is now awaiting unlocking by the operators of the exchange, in preparation for attention from the moderators who serve as gatekeepers between submissions and listings.

Please see the section of the document headed "Initial Offering, Minimum Participation Level, and Fund Closure" and "Subscriptions and Redemptions" for more details on the release of shares.

Nowhere in that can I see details of how many shares you'd be selling at IPO - or what your plans are in terms of time-scale for releasing all of them.

I'd assume you aren't going to sell all at once (even if there was demand) as it wouldn't be practical to deploy that much capital at once.

I note that you only intend to publish NAV/U monthly - is it your intention only to sell and redeem once per month?  Or will you be maintaining bids/asks based on a current (but unpublished) NAV/U?  Either way can work of course.

I'm glad you're avoiding the cancer that is dividends for the sake of dividends btw.
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August 08, 2013, 12:20:45 PM
 #40

just do not forget that government(s) can change the mind in (un)predictable way

I'm sure that governments can and will change their collective minds about how best to handle Bitcoin; rapid change in the Bitcoin landscape more generally is just something we should assume. However, this seems to me to be a larger and broader issue, rather than a being a concern which is specifically focused on this fund or that fund, this exchange or that exchange.

this.
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