Bitcoin Forum
May 05, 2024, 02:25:19 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  

Warning: Moderators do not remove likely scams. You must use your own brain: caveat emptor. Watch out for Ponzi schemes. Do not invest more than you can afford to lose.

Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 [15] 16 17 18 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: [BTC-TC] BTC Growth: Capital Growth via Hedge Fund-Style Investing  (Read 251433 times)
Vexual
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 196
Merit: 100


View Profile
September 25, 2013, 10:25:19 PM
 #281

As always, I am prioritising my efforts in a way which I believe best serves the interests of all participants in the fund.
I will emphatically not be discriminating on the basis of position size.
This sounds like a prophylactic unrolling, with your own intrests in mind.

1VEX7x76pJdreV1nJW8bXpotbCNggDxG5
The forum was founded in 2009 by Satoshi and Sirius. It replaced a SourceForge forum.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
1714919119
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714919119

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714919119
Reply with quote  #2

1714919119
Report to moderator
jeffshed
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 60
Merit: 10


View Profile
September 26, 2013, 12:44:56 AM
Last edit: September 26, 2013, 01:11:04 AM by jeffshed
 #282

On the surface due to the lack of transparency and gregs stance on btct's closure, this is confirmed a scam.

Hypothetically, say you:
1) take 2000BTC from the BTC community.
2) Let it sit in a wallet for a month.
3) Announce that 25% has been lost due to trading.
4) Give back 1500BTC to the community and keep 500BTC for yourself.
5) go pay off your mortgage

Anyone can do this. This greg guy just happens to be good at writing which made people think he's a smart and trustworthy guy. He is smart!
Trustworthy? how the fuck should we know?!?!?! have you met the guy? NO

If he does not move the fund to another exchange or reveal exactly where the BTC went. this is confirmed a SCAM.
(even if he does reveal where it went. can we trust him? NO)

Disagree with me if you like. But this is how i see it. no fancy words. no bullshit. facts.
ArcticWolf
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 196
Merit: 100



View Profile
September 26, 2013, 12:52:47 AM
 #283


Disagree with me if you like. But this is how i see it. no fancy words. no bullshit. facts.


Facts require concrete evidence. You have offered nothing but a hypothesis.
No facts. All bullshit.

https://www.crypto-trade.com/ref/arcticwolf Try CryptoTrade.com, a new exchange for trading Currencies and Securities
jeffshed
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 60
Merit: 10


View Profile
September 26, 2013, 01:08:15 AM
 #284


Disagree with me if you like. But this is how i see it. no fancy words. no bullshit. facts.


Facts require concrete evidence. You have offered nothing but a hypothesis.
No facts. All bullshit.

oooooooo fanboy...you going to get burnt.....but youre right Wink
it's because the way he's set it up is there is no evidence....it's one of those BEAUTIFUL scams.
arousedrhino
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 347
Merit: 250


View Profile
September 26, 2013, 02:45:59 AM
 #285

On the surface due to the lack of transparency and gregs stance on btct's closure, this is confirmed a scam.

Hypothetically, say you:
1) take 2000BTC from the BTC community.
2) Let it sit in a wallet for a month.
3) Announce that 25% has been lost due to trading.
4) Give back 1500BTC to the community and keep 500BTC for yourself.
5) go pay off your mortgage

Anyone can do this. This greg guy just happens to be good at writing which made people think he's a smart and trustworthy guy. He is smart!
Trustworthy? how the fuck should we know?!?!?! have you met the guy? NO

If he does not move the fund to another exchange or reveal exactly where the BTC went. this is confirmed a SCAM.
(even if he does reveal where it went. can we trust him? NO)

Disagree with me if you like. But this is how i see it. no fancy words. no bullshit. facts.


Theres no way $65,000 would pay off most mortgages. Thats a fact for most people.
ArcticWolf
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 196
Merit: 100



View Profile
September 26, 2013, 03:53:11 AM
 #286


Disagree with me if you like. But this is how i see it. no fancy words. no bullshit. facts.


Facts require concrete evidence. You have offered nothing but a hypothesis.
No facts. All bullshit.

oooooooo fanboy...you going to get burnt.....but youre right Wink
it's because the way he's set it up is there is no evidence....it's one of those BEAUTIFUL scams.

Im not a fanboy, and in fact I hold no shares. Your baseless accusations got on my nerves.

https://www.crypto-trade.com/ref/arcticwolf Try CryptoTrade.com, a new exchange for trading Currencies and Securities
Code_red
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 110
Merit: 10


View Profile
September 26, 2013, 06:32:59 AM
 #287

He's also not hiding his real identity or his company. If your going to accuse something of being a scam it helps to have a story that makes sense. You have no proof of your accusations or even a well thought out theory.
Ytterbium
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238
Merit: 100



View Profile WWW
September 26, 2013, 09:42:56 AM
 #288


Disagree with me if you like. But this is how i see it. no fancy words. no bullshit. facts.


Facts require concrete evidence. You have offered nothing but a hypothesis.
No facts. All bullshit.

I said he would lose your money, and he did. Maybe you should re-evaluate how you apportion the burden of proof. 

Ytterbium
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238
Merit: 100



View Profile WWW
September 26, 2013, 09:43:41 AM
 #289

He's also not hiding his real identity or his company. If your going to accuse something of being a scam it helps to have a story that makes sense. You have no proof of your accusations or even a well thought out theory.

Neither did Pirateat40

xchrisxsays
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 98
Merit: 10



View Profile
September 26, 2013, 04:00:49 PM
 #290


Disagree with me if you like. But this is how i see it. no fancy words. no bullshit. facts.


Facts require concrete evidence. You have offered nothing but a hypothesis.
No facts. All bullshit.

I said he would lose your money, and he did. Maybe you should re-evaluate how you apportion the burden of proof. 

He lost the money cause of some unforeseen and extreme circumstances. You weren't saying "BTCT is going to close down, and it's going to cause the market to crash, don't buy in!" You said "I don't trust this guy, you shouldn't buy in." He had improved the NAV according to the first report and was very transparent with everything, and is STILL transparent with everything. So don't even try to act like you knew what you were talking about, you were spouting bullshit and still are.
DrGregMulhauser (OP)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 330
Merit: 255



View Profile
September 26, 2013, 04:49:17 PM
 #291

The second full report for BTC Growth will be published in summary form on BTC-TC and in both summary and detailed form on the fund's discussion thread on Tuesday 1 October at 1 pm UK time. This early date will bring our reporting in line with calendar months.

Discussions are continuing about moving the fund to another exchange -- nothing substantial to report yet.

Tips: 1GTvfygTCnA5LdE2dX31AtcHho6s6X9H9b
BTC Growth
ArcticWolf
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 196
Merit: 100



View Profile
September 27, 2013, 10:20:49 PM
 #292


Disagree with me if you like. But this is how i see it. no fancy words. no bullshit. facts.


Facts require concrete evidence. You have offered nothing but a hypothesis.
No facts. All bullshit.

I said he would lose your money, and he did. Maybe you should re-evaluate how you apportion the burden of proof.  

His investment decisions didnt lose money, the entire bitcoin security market tanked at the news of btct's closure.
Show me one fund or security that didnt go down in value, then I might listen to you.

https://www.crypto-trade.com/ref/arcticwolf Try CryptoTrade.com, a new exchange for trading Currencies and Securities
DrGregMulhauser (OP)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 330
Merit: 255



View Profile
October 01, 2013, 12:02:21 PM
 #293

September 2013 Results

Note: The timing of this report is intended to bring reporting in line with calendar months.

Executive Summary

Since our interim report on 23 September, the fund's Net Asset Value has climbed to .0891 BTC per share, an increase of 9.73%.

Relative to our previous full report which covered the month to 14 September, NAV per share decreased by 11.92%.

For comparison, a sample of relatively large and liquid equities across BTC-TC and BitFunder had already fallen by an average of roughly 18% from the end of our previous period thru 22 September, the day before the announcement of BTC-TC's closure. Extending that period by another 8 days, to 30 September, the same group of equities had not only failed to rebound, but had instead continued to fall for a total loss of approximately 43%.

We are still in discussions about moving the fund to a different exchange, and an announcement will be made in this regard as soon as we have something concrete to report.

Context and Environment

Comparing a fund, on the one hand, with individual equities, on the other, is never straightforward, and paying much attention at all to fluctuations over the course of periods like a week or two is of little more than academic interest. But since the value of our fund derives partly from the value of underlying equities (with the remainder from cash, derivatives and debt), and since many market participants clearly do pay attention to performance over brief time periods, I think it's worth sketching at least a rough, back-of-the-envelope picture. This rough picture reveals that not only was the decline in Bitcoin equities already in progress before the BTC-TC announcement was made, but the subsequent rebound which some market participants might have hoped for failed to materialise.

From 15 September until the day before BTC-TC-induced carnage, 22 September, individual share prices of relatively large and relatively liquid equities across the two largest exchanges had already fallen by an average of approximately 18%. Note that this figure represents share prices only and neither total return with dividends nor change in reported NAV.

(For reference, the list is: ACTIVEMINING, ASICMINER-PT, BASIC-MINING, BTC-QUICK, BTC-TRADING-PT, CIPHERMINE-PT, ICEDRILL.ASIC, KENILWORTH, LABCOIN, LABRATMINING, RENTALSTARTER. This list was chosen simply to reflect the activity of relatively liquid equities with relatively large market capitalisations and has nothing to do with my own views of any of them; swap some out or add different ones, and the picture doesn't change much. Due to differences in the way data are provided by the exchanges, and because the last price for a given day might be either a market buy or a market sell, changes have been tracked from the lowest trade price on one day to the lowest trade price on another; values would be similar for tracking highest to highest or average to average.)

The performance of the only other listed fund with size and liquidity comparable to our own (BTCINVEST) was a loss of 34% during that same period, while the house profit at Just-Dice had fallen by 101%.

Extending the period so as to coincide with the latest figures available for 30 September (in the case of BitFunder, the time zone difference puts this part way through 30 September), the comparable numbers are an even wider 43% loss for the large and liquid equities and a 25% loss for BTCINVEST. The figure for Just-Dice house profit worsened to a 148% loss. Excluding the now nearly worthless BTC-TRADING and the 'controversial' LABCOIN from the picture improves the overall performance of the large and liquid equities to a loss of 32%, and further excluding the ICEDRILL.ASIC 'faithware' asset from the calculation brings the loss of large and liquid equities to 37%.

Again, this comparison is intended to offer only an approximation, but whether you round up, round sideways, or pop in a dividend or two here and there, the general picture across Bitcoin equity markets has been grim. On average, the general picture across Bitcoin equity markets has been far worse than the results experienced by our fund.

As per our prior report, for convenience I use the term 'equities' to include revenue sharing operations.

Individual Securities and Primary Influences

While the fund has been active in many different areas during the period and has been influenced by many different factors, the strongest influences on performance during the period were:

  • the pending closure of BTC-TC
  • the crushing of Just-Dice
  • the buying back of our own shares

I'll address each of these in turn.

BTC-TC Closure

The announcement of BTC-TC's pending closure directly took the value of the parent company itself to near zero and indirectly led some assets to close their doors. Public statements by individuals in charge of some listed assets -- to which our fund had minimal exposure -- appear to have led the market to reassess the value of those assets particularly negatively.

The temporary dip in assets which had limited exposure to the closure and which did not suffer from evaporating market confidence in their management enabled the fund to pick up shares in some assets at attractive discounts and to exploit a few arbitrage opportunities, including purchasing discounted bonds which could be redeemed at face value for an immediate profit.

We are still in discussions about moving the fund to a new exchange, and an announcement will be made in this regard as soon as there is something concrete to report.

Just-Dice

During a span of just a few days, a single gambler walked away from Just-Dice.com with a sum approximately six times larger than the entire original capitalisation of BTC Growth. At the time of our previous interim report, the site had gone from over 6000 BTC in house profit to a loss of 49 BTC; in the following days, the total figure for the site collapsed even further, to the extent of mirroring the former profit, weighing in at around -6000 BTC. (The specific house profit figure used in the above comparisons to 30 September is -3064 BTC.) As noted in our interim report, our fund lost significant capital as a result of lending to the bankroll, although after making a change to how our lending is managed, the fund was able to recover some of those losses.

The site's losses became so severe that after repeatedly floating the idea of closing the site completely, the proprietor eventually began testing modifications to the permitted betting structure designed to reduce the likelihood of further massive losses. While the modifications introduced by the proprietor in the aftermath of the site's having lost so much capital may decrease the odds of such high losses going forward, they may also reduce the magnitude of future gains and generally discourage use of the site.

Share Buybacks

During the period, we returned several hundred BTC to shareholders by buying back a total of 4044 of our own shares, reducing the total outstanding to 15,957.

During periods of especially elevated uncertainty, buying back our own shares at a discount to NAV makes very good use of our capital: while buying some other asset might generate gains going forward, we can be certain that undertaking purchases which are analogous to buying dollar bills for something less than one hundred cents each provides participants in the fund with an immediate gain.

Platform Problems

Apart from the obvious closing down of BTC-TC, the types of platform problems mentioned in our last full report improved somewhat on a 'problem free days' basis, with a total of six days during the period remaining free of platform failures. Note, however, that this simple measure obscures the fact that some services were virtually unavailable for a sustained period of two days on 23-24 September, despite, in some cases, public statements that services were operating normally.

Liquidity Facility and Subscriptions/Redemptions

As discussed above, redemptions during the period reduced our outstanding share capital significantly. Subsequent to this report, the fund may optionally place bids or asks for a time, at a discount or premium to NAV, as described in the listing documents.

Reporting Schedule

Having now synchronised with calendar months, our intention is to return to an approximately monthly reporting cycle.

Trust Ratings

As I mentioned in the fund's listing documents, I have no particular interest in amassing trust ratings for a pseudonymous WOT account. However, if participants in the fund feel it is appropriate to do so, I would invite them to consider leaving trust feedback for my forum account, not as a reflection of positive or negative fund performance, but rather as an indication of how they regard the trustworthiness of my management of the fund. (It is virtually certain that the NAV of the fund will go down as well as up, but hopefully variation in fund performance need not imply variation in trustworthiness.)

Tips: 1GTvfygTCnA5LdE2dX31AtcHho6s6X9H9b
BTC Growth
Progressive
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 181
Merit: 100


View Profile
October 01, 2013, 12:15:17 PM
 #294

I'm glad that you have taken the opportunity to make some profit from the BTCT panic.

The perfomance is very good (considering the JD bad luck) compared not only to BTC-INVEST, but also compared to smaller funds (Smidge, SANDSTORM or BTC-EQTY).
Nootnewbie
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 63
Merit: 10


View Profile
October 01, 2013, 12:30:49 PM
 #295

Thanks for the detailed report Greg.  My confidence in your abilities just continues to increase.  I just have a quick question:  what's the reasoning behind selling shares at a discount relative to NAV?  I think you talked about this before, that you'd only sell shares at a slight premium to NAV.  Is this to increase liquidity for the fund?  Thanks again and keep up the great work!
Rannasha
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 728
Merit: 500


View Profile
October 01, 2013, 12:37:55 PM
 #296

Thanks for the detailed report Greg.  My confidence in your abilities just continues to increase.  I just have a quick question:  what's the reasoning behind selling shares at a discount relative to NAV?  I think you talked about this before, that you'd only sell shares at a slight premium to NAV.  Is this to increase liquidity for the fund?  Thanks again and keep up the great work!

I'm pretty sure he places bids at a discount and asks at a premium to NAV/U and not otherwise.
JoTheKhan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378
Merit: 250


View Profile
October 01, 2013, 12:39:44 PM
 #297

Pretty sure you have but just want to check. Have you got in contact with either Havelock or Bitfunder to try and move your assets over to one of those sites?
Nootnewbie
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 63
Merit: 10


View Profile
October 01, 2013, 12:40:44 PM
 #298

Thanks for the detailed report Greg.  My confidence in your abilities just continues to increase.  I just have a quick question:  what's the reasoning behind selling shares at a discount relative to NAV?  I think you talked about this before, that you'd only sell shares at a slight premium to NAV.  Is this to increase liquidity for the fund?  Thanks again and keep up the great work!

I'm pretty sure he places bids at a discount and asks at a premium to NAV/U and not otherwise.

Ok thanks, I think you're right.
DrGregMulhauser (OP)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 330
Merit: 255



View Profile
October 01, 2013, 01:23:18 PM
 #299

Pretty sure you have but just want to check. Have you got in contact with either Havelock or Bitfunder to try and move your assets over to one of those sites?

We're still in ongoing discussions about a move, and we'll plan to make an announcement when we have something concrete to report.

Tips: 1GTvfygTCnA5LdE2dX31AtcHho6s6X9H9b
BTC Growth
Nootnewbie
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 63
Merit: 10


View Profile
October 02, 2013, 10:35:45 AM
 #300

I have a slightly more academic question for you Greg:  Would the fund be breaking its fiduciary duty to a shareholder if the fund bought shares from said shareholder at prices SIGNIFICANTLY below NAV.  I can see the fund buying back shares at a little below NAV to offer said shareholder liquidity.  However I have some reservations about the fund using its knowledge of its own value to "take advantage" of a shareholder for the benefit of other shareholders.  Just wanted to know your thoughts on this Greg.

Thanks!
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 [15] 16 17 18 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!