Bitstamp exchange of currencies: stealing money of the deposit by employees

[kiss moon]

@kiss moon

You're welcome!

It's not only Russia guys. I got friends in Germany, Netherlands and France and they're having the same problems as you guys have mentioned started from early December 2017, but for smaller amounts around €5k - €10k.

I did some more digging and indeed Bitstamp is regulated by Luxembourg Financial Industry Supervisory Commission CSSF. That does not mean you will receive compensation in case they go bankrupt or are hacked, they can decide if they want to do that out of goodwill, they are not obligated to do so. You did the right thing by writing CSSF if Bitstamp does not want to work this out with you. I'm over 90% sure the UK's ombudsman (FOS) cannot help you at all, as I wrote earlier. That leaves you with CSSF, ECC (private/consumer only) and law firms.

I don't think the other two licensed crypto exchanges offer you any compensation insurance as well, hence most professional traders trade on wall street or in the uk as being part of uk's FSCS (50K GBP insurance).

Good luck!

Which exchange, in your opinion, is registered with FSCS? I don't know about any.

https://s17.postimg.org/p72m6ikvj/cssf.png - Answer from CSSF  

That surprised me a lot. Did they change that without notice? Bitstamp Ltd. definitely was under CSSF. I would rewrite your case against S.A. and I assume you probably already did.

I think it was always like that, before, no one paid attention to it when there were no problems with Bitstamp. The text about the exchange was licensed from the main page of the site deleted. In the process of applying to the CSSF. A good surprise  

[crypt0dude]

@kiss moon

You're welcome!

It's not only Russia guys. I got friends in Germany, Netherlands and France and they're having the same problems as you guys have mentioned started from early December 2017, but for smaller amounts around €5k - €10k.

I did some more digging and indeed Bitstamp is regulated by Luxembourg Financial Industry Supervisory Commission CSSF. That does not mean you will receive compensation in case they go bankrupt or are hacked, they can decide if they want to do that out of goodwill, they are not obligated to do so. You did the right thing by writing CSSF if Bitstamp does not want to work this out with you. I'm over 90% sure the UK's ombudsman (FOS) cannot help you at all, as I wrote earlier. That leaves you with CSSF, ECC (private/consumer only) and law firms.

I don't think the other two licensed crypto exchanges offer you any compensation insurance as well, hence most professional traders trade on wall street or in the uk as being part of uk's FSCS (50K GBP insurance).

Good luck!

Which exchange, in your opinion, is registered with FSCS? I don't know about any.

https://s17.postimg.org/p72m6ikvj/cssf.png - Answer from CSSF  

That surprised me a lot. Did they change that without notice? Bitstamp Ltd. definitely was under CSSF. I would rewrite your case against S.A. and I assume you probably already did.

I think it was always like that, before, no one paid attention to it when there were no problems with Bitstamp. The text about the exchange was licensed from the main page of the site deleted. In the process of applying to the CSSF. A good surprise  

Yep, indeed it is. I've found the rules, obligations and regulations for the CSSF and its clients to the CSSF @ https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-007-9691?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true&bhcp=1
In the worst case scenario, you could also try to contact the ECB, but I think they will refer you to CSSF. ECB authorisatian @ https://www.bankingsupervision.europa.eu/banking/tasks/authorisation/html/index.en.html

Holding money for months without any or useless communication and/or help is not done and shouldn't be allowed. It ruins people's lives.

Keep us informed, thanks!

[2kilo]

Holding money for months without any or useless communication and/or help is not done and shouldn't be allowed. It ruins people's lives.

Keep us informed, thanks!

See it ->

It's not only Russia guys. I got friends in Germany, Netherlands and France and they're having the same problems as you guys have mentioned started from early December 2017, but for smaller amounts around €5k - €10k.

If you know of cases similar to me, send me the data, and we will add them to the "list of victims"!

[crypt0dude]

Holding money for months without any or useless communication and/or help is not done and shouldn't be allowed. It ruins people's lives.

Keep us informed, thanks!

See it ->

It's not only Russia guys. I got friends in Germany, Netherlands and France and they're having the same problems as you guys have mentioned started from early December 2017, but for smaller amounts around €5k - €10k.

If you know of cases similar to me, send me the data, and we will add them to the "list of victims"!

I only heard from one of them and he doesn't want to be on a public list due to privacy reasons.
He said small deposits and withdrawals work, only large ones not.

Maybe this is a government KYC related issue, although speaking from experiences having dealt with KYC with other banking financial institutions, if the stories are true what they want to know, it's plainly insane and very hard to believe the rationalization of KYC other than to cover up something worse. You normally get a few simple questions on telephone or in person at your residential address or one of their offices or have some paperwork to fill in with the worst case a financial statement (I don't see anything worse case in this) and that's it. Funds always have been released within 2 business days. That's why red flags are all over the place.

[2kilo]

I only heard from one of them and he doesn't want to be on a public list due to privacy reasons.
He said small deposits and withdrawals work, only large ones not.

Public list, does not disclose any information about it. There are only general data and amount for general statistics and presentation to the Bitstamp

[Kloug]

I hope you all have reported to https://www.actionfraud.police.uk/report-a-fraud-including-online-crime already, that's at least something we can do.

With so many red flags I'd withdraw my money from BS.. but what are the chances it's gonna work..

Hard to imagine an exchange with no tethers and no leverage/margin to have financial troubles, though, I and I really hope they didn't get hacked again.
I don't have much crypto sitting on BS, only fiat. That'd normally be safe, unless they're now using everyone's fiat deposit to buy back stolen crypto, lol that would be bad.

[pascal257]

There are no crypto exchanges registered with FSCS, that's the problem. Only top forex brokers located in the UK, but you need to check that to be sure and have it black on white in paper.

I don't think Bistamp is liquid to handle huge amounts of withdrawals and probably not even solvent to do so. That's my opinion based on what has and still is going on and basic math + common sense.
Let's say, in theorem, that Bitstamp or any other crypto exchange has users that have 50% of Bitcoins mined and 50% - 1 are bought for $1. Now the last guy buys the bitcoin for $20k. The market cap of bitcoin rises to supply * last traded price. Let's say, supply of 17 million bitcoins and let's assume Bitstamp had a monopoly where all users will go to buy/sell bitcoin and have their entire account equity (deposits) used.
To use some simple arithmetic:
Bitstamp client deposits: 17m * 0.5 * $1 + 1 * $20k = $8.5 million + $20k = $8,520,000 ($8.52m)
Market cap from: 17m * $1 = $17m, to: 17m * $20k = $340,000,000,000 ($340b)

As you can see, the only way this is sustainable is that more people get in and buy around the same last price to maintain that market cap. Problem is, if price rises too fast vs their earnings from fees + third party capital investments + own equity AND people withdraw huge amounts at the same time(period), crypto exchanges cannot pay you out (i.e. a bank run). Unfortunately, most things rely on a ponzi scheme/pyramid structure in life. The only one who can 100% guarantee it to pay out is the central bank. If they don't have enough fiat, they just print or put more digits in.
Things will really go south when theft occurred (i.e. a hack). Not implying this has happened, just having an open mind and mature discussion here.

As the top forex brokers offering you an insurance in case things go wrong, I don't think they will for cryptos if this continues without new big money coming in, while people cashing out. Therefore, there are only 3 crypto money licensed transmitter exchanges, where there could have been many more crypto fiat exchanges, ask yourself why this didn't happen. I know coinbase and kraken have huge reserves and bistamp had a lot of liquidity as well in the past, that's why everything went so smooth for years. But, when suddenly withdrawals and deposits don't go smooth and it's still not solved within a week, I'm worried and that's my argument. The same thing happens in the business world, hence the stalling of time.

Bullshit meter over 9000 here.

[Kloug]

There are no crypto exchanges registered with FSCS, that's the problem. Only top forex brokers located in the UK, but you need to check that to be sure and have it black on white in paper.

I don't think Bistamp is liquid to handle huge amounts of withdrawals and probably not even solvent to do so. That's my opinion based on what has and still is going on and basic math + common sense.
Let's say, in theorem, that Bitstamp or any other crypto exchange has users that have 50% of Bitcoins mined and 50% - 1 are bought for $1. Now the last guy buys the bitcoin for $20k. The market cap of bitcoin rises to supply * last traded price. Let's say, supply of 17 million bitcoins and let's assume Bitstamp had a monopoly where all users will go to buy/sell bitcoin and have their entire account equity (deposits) used.
To use some simple arithmetic:
Bitstamp client deposits: 17m * 0.5 * $1 + 1 * $20k = $8.5 million + $20k = $8,520,000 ($8.52m)
Market cap from: 17m * $1 = $17m, to: 17m * $20k = $340,000,000,000 ($340b)

As you can see, the only way this is sustainable is that more people get in and buy around the same last price to maintain that market cap. Problem is, if price rises too fast vs their earnings from fees + third party capital investments + own equity AND people withdraw huge amounts at the same time(period), crypto exchanges cannot pay you out (i.e. a bank run). Unfortunately, most things rely on a ponzi scheme/pyramid structure in life. The only one who can 100% guarantee it to pay out is the central bank. If they don't have enough fiat, they just print or put more digits in.
Things will really go south when theft occurred (i.e. a hack). Not implying this has happened, just having an open mind and mature discussion here.

As the top forex brokers offering you an insurance in case things go wrong, I don't think they will for cryptos if this continues without new big money coming in, while people cashing out. Therefore, there are only 3 crypto money licensed transmitter exchanges, where there could have been many more crypto fiat exchanges, ask yourself why this didn't happen. I know coinbase and kraken have huge reserves and bistamp had a lot of liquidity as well in the past, that's why everything went so smooth for years. But, when suddenly withdrawals and deposits don't go smooth and it's still not solved within a week, I'm worried and that's my argument. The same thing happens in the business world, hence the stalling of time.

I don't understand the logic, here.

Bitstamp gets fiat & crypto in & out. They don't buy crypto, they don't sell crypto, they merely reassign fiat & crypto to various people *within* Bitstamp.
Doesn't matter if someone deposits 1 million BTC's to Bitstamp, he will only be able to withdraw them as fiat, if there are buyers *within Bitstamp*.
All they do is reassigning stuff. Bitcoin falls to zero? Doesn't matter a single bit, unless of course they have lost the BTC's they are supposed to have, from hacking. And even here, people would have lost their BTC's, not their fiat. Can't imagine "hacking fiat" out of Bitstamp (how?).

With no leverage, and with real eur/usd instead of tethers, I cannot imagine any way for Bitstamp to lose money, unless it costs them more to run than what fees bring, but with the highest fees out of any exchange, I can't imagine that being the case, at all. If people like myself have paid thousands for months, for what's basic exchange coding, well..
I can only think of 2 ways for Bitstamp to have money problems:
-hacking
-stealing/running away with money
Both having happened to exchanges in the past..

I can really imagine problems with margin trading+tethers, but the only margin trading BS is supposed to have is only in beta, used by a couple of users. I don't think THAT would have already brought BS down.
So, BS only plays with what they have. If they have lost their BTC's, then it's remote hacking or internal fraud. If they have lost their fiat, then it's internal fraud. If they sell more BTC than they have, then it's internal fraud. But in any case, it has to be fraud, not any "logical problem with crypto". Doesn't matter if crypto crashes or rises, for exchanges, they make money both ways.

[2kilo]

20 days without my money

[crypt0dude]

There are no crypto exchanges registered with FSCS, that's the problem. Only top forex brokers located in the UK, but you need to check that to be sure and have it black on white in paper.

I don't think Bistamp is liquid to handle huge amounts of withdrawals and probably not even solvent to do so. That's my opinion based on what has and still is going on and basic math + common sense.
Let's say, in theorem, that Bitstamp or any other crypto exchange has users that have 50% of Bitcoins mined and 50% - 1 are bought for $1. Now the last guy buys the bitcoin for $20k. The market cap of bitcoin rises to supply * last traded price. Let's say, supply of 17 million bitcoins and let's assume Bitstamp had a monopoly where all users will go to buy/sell bitcoin and have their entire account equity (deposits) used.
To use some simple arithmetic:
Bitstamp client deposits: 17m * 0.5 * $1 + 1 * $20k = $8.5 million + $20k = $8,520,000 ($8.52m)
Market cap from: 17m * $1 = $17m, to: 17m * $20k = $340,000,000,000 ($340b)

As you can see, the only way this is sustainable is that more people get in and buy around the same last price to maintain that market cap. Problem is, if price rises too fast vs their earnings from fees + third party capital investments + own equity AND people withdraw huge amounts at the same time(period), crypto exchanges cannot pay you out (i.e. a bank run). Unfortunately, most things rely on a ponzi scheme/pyramid structure in life. The only one who can 100% guarantee it to pay out is the central bank. If they don't have enough fiat, they just print or put more digits in.
Things will really go south when theft occurred (i.e. a hack). Not implying this has happened, just having an open mind and mature discussion here.

As the top forex brokers offering you an insurance in case things go wrong, I don't think they will for cryptos if this continues without new big money coming in, while people cashing out. Therefore, there are only 3 crypto money licensed transmitter exchanges, where there could have been many more crypto fiat exchanges, ask yourself why this didn't happen. I know coinbase and kraken have huge reserves and bistamp had a lot of liquidity as well in the past, that's why everything went so smooth for years. But, when suddenly withdrawals and deposits don't go smooth and it's still not solved within a week, I'm worried and that's my argument. The same thing happens in the business world, hence the stalling of time.

Bullshit meter over 9000 here.

Elaborate. You know how basic accounting works? If yes, explain in technical detail how an audit works and how this is sustainable, especially when one can short.
Oh wait, you can't, otherwise you would have commented back with a constructive argument, which you have none of.

EDIT:
I only agree that my example is confusing, as it did lack information (thought you would figure that out yourself if you could critically think). With shorting, you are on margin. With leverage, the situation can be much worse.
If one could think, one could see the reason why USD Tether was created (you get my point of central banking, i.e. creation out of thin air, yes?). Don't assume everyone is 100% in crypto. Basic and essential questions like disclosure of financial statements in times of withdrawal problems are 100% valid. Not hard at all, is it?

[crypt0dude]

There are no crypto exchanges registered with FSCS, that's the problem. Only top forex brokers located in the UK, but you need to check that to be sure and have it black on white in paper.

I don't think Bistamp is liquid to handle huge amounts of withdrawals and probably not even solvent to do so. That's my opinion based on what has and still is going on and basic math + common sense.
Let's say, in theorem, that Bitstamp or any other crypto exchange has users that have 50% of Bitcoins mined and 50% - 1 are bought for $1. Now the last guy buys the bitcoin for $20k. The market cap of bitcoin rises to supply * last traded price. Let's say, supply of 17 million bitcoins and let's assume Bitstamp had a monopoly where all users will go to buy/sell bitcoin and have their entire account equity (deposits) used.
To use some simple arithmetic:
Bitstamp client deposits: 17m * 0.5 * $1 + 1 * $20k = $8.5 million + $20k = $8,520,000 ($8.52m)
Market cap from: 17m * $1 = $17m, to: 17m * $20k = $340,000,000,000 ($340b)

As you can see, the only way this is sustainable is that more people get in and buy around the same last price to maintain that market cap. Problem is, if price rises too fast vs their earnings from fees + third party capital investments + own equity AND people withdraw huge amounts at the same time(period), crypto exchanges cannot pay you out (i.e. a bank run). Unfortunately, most things rely on a ponzi scheme/pyramid structure in life. The only one who can 100% guarantee it to pay out is the central bank. If they don't have enough fiat, they just print or put more digits in.
Things will really go south when theft occurred (i.e. a hack). Not implying this has happened, just having an open mind and mature discussion here.

As the top forex brokers offering you an insurance in case things go wrong, I don't think they will for cryptos if this continues without new big money coming in, while people cashing out. Therefore, there are only 3 crypto money licensed transmitter exchanges, where there could have been many more crypto fiat exchanges, ask yourself why this didn't happen. I know coinbase and kraken have huge reserves and bistamp had a lot of liquidity as well in the past, that's why everything went so smooth for years. But, when suddenly withdrawals and deposits don't go smooth and it's still not solved within a week, I'm worried and that's my argument. The same thing happens in the business world, hence the stalling of time.

I don't understand the logic, here.

Bitstamp gets fiat & crypto in & out. They don't buy crypto, they don't sell crypto, they merely reassign fiat & crypto to various people *within* Bitstamp.
Doesn't matter if someone deposits 1 million BTC's to Bitstamp, he will only be able to withdraw them as fiat, if there are buyers *within Bitstamp*.
All they do is reassigning stuff. Bitcoin falls to zero? Doesn't matter a single bit, unless of course they have lost the BTC's they are supposed to have, from hacking. And even here, people would have lost their BTC's, not their fiat. Can't imagine "hacking fiat" out of Bitstamp (how?).

With no leverage, and with real eur/usd instead of tethers, I cannot imagine any way for Bitstamp to lose money, unless it costs them more to run than what fees bring, but with the highest fees out of any exchange, I can't imagine that being the case, at all. If people like myself have paid thousands for months, for what's basic exchange coding, well..
I can only think of 2 ways for Bitstamp to have money problems:
-hacking
-stealing/running away with money
Both having happened to exchanges in the past..

I can really imagine problems with margin trading+tethers, but the only margin trading BS is supposed to have is only in beta, used by a couple of users. I don't think THAT would have already brought BS down.
So, BS only plays with what they have. If they have lost their BTC's, then it's remote hacking or internal fraud. If they have lost their fiat, then it's internal fraud. If they sell more BTC than they have, then it's internal fraud. But in any case, it has to be fraud, not any "logical problem with crypto". Doesn't matter if crypto crashes or rises, for exchanges, they make money both ways.

We're talking about a regulated exchange, which needs to have their AUDITS in order. This means, they need to have RESERVES in both crypto (bitcoin) and fiat. The theorem I gave is just as it is, theory to proof an argument. With a backlog as they have, I imagine it will take a lot of time, hence money. So if liabilities > assets without having enough in reserves, they are in trouble.

Do you really think Bitstamp can in infinity swap bitcoins for fiat? Where do they sell their bitcoins to fiat to without having it on their own (worst case, let's say)? You imagine buyers always pay in fiat, you're wrong. A lot of active people have bitcoins for free or for sub $10 that are bailing out for some now. If there are no more new people depositing fiat, how are you suppose to pay out all the withdrawals. Let's say Bitstamp has $100 million in reserves and $1000 is requested to withdraw. You get my point?

EDIT:
I see you pointed out their income is for fees. Okay, what are their expenses? And with the trouble they're in right now without having the volume other exchanges have, the costs might exceed their income or will be lower in relative terms vs a few months back, now scale that to an unknown timeframe until it's solved, let's say.

Again, you think they can operate forever and assume everyone to buy fiat for bitcoin, while many have seen their btc holdings increase a 1000x. As I've said, many people who got in earlier have rarely more than 20% in crypto and 80% in fiat on exchanges. Now that many of them are pulling out since December 2017, suddenly Bistamp has problems. Go figure. I gave you the theory that proofs my argument.  I can't see how your argument holds up when people have already been in fiat on exchanges for a long time. You assume everyone is 100% in crypto, maybe you're.

TL;DR;
Your assumption that everyone is 100% in crypto on exchanges is wrong. Many people are underexposed in crypto since end December 2017, that means, most of their holdings are in fiat. You were right if everyone is/was 100% in crypto, but obviously, you're wrong on that.

[2kilo]

We're talking about a regulated exchange, which needs to have their AUDITS in order. This means, they need to have RESERVES in both crypto (bitcoin) and fiat. The theorem I gave is just as it is, theory to proof an argument. With a backlog as they have, I imagine it will take a lot of time, hence money. So if liabilities > assets without having enough in reserves, they are in trouble.

Do you really think Bitstamp can in infinity swap bitcoins for fiat? Where do they sell their bitcoins to fiat to without having it on their own (worst case, let's say)? You imagine buyers always pay in fiat, you're wrong. A lot of active people have bitcoins for free or for sub $10 that are bailing out for some now. If there are no more new people depositing fiat, how are you suppose to pay out all the withdrawals. Let's say Bitstamp has $100 million in reserves and $1000 is requested to withdraw. You get my point?

It seems you are absolutely right!

[Kloug]

We're talking about a regulated exchange, which needs to have their AUDITS in order. This means, they need to have RESERVES in both crypto (bitcoin) and fiat. The theorem I gave is just as it is, theory to proof an argument. With a backlog as they have, I imagine it will take a lot of time, hence money. So if liabilities > assets without having enough in reserves, they are in trouble.

Do you really think Bitstamp can in infinity swap bitcoins for fiat? Where do they sell their bitcoins to fiat to without having it on their own (worst case, let's say)? You imagine buyers always pay in fiat, you're wrong. A lot of active people have bitcoins for free or for sub $10 that are bailing out for some now. If there are no more new people depositing fiat, how are you suppose to pay out all the withdrawals. Let's say Bitstamp has $100 million in reserves and $1000 is requested to withdraw. You get my point?

You don't make any sense.

Let's start with the facts. Bitstamp has no leverage nor margin trading (only secretly for a happy few in beta, apparently).

So how does Bitstamp work? Pretty basic: people bring their stuff (crypto, fiat) IN, Bitstamp allows people to REASSIGN properties, like "this bitcoin has been moved from X to Y, while this amount of fiat was moved from Y to X", and that IS ALL THEY DO.

Nothing is created, only reassigned.
Again, it has no leverage and no margin, nothing is created, only properties are reassigned. Margin, leverage, tethers, yeah that's true, but that applies to Bitfinex, Kraken & some others, not Bitstamp.

It does not matter if Satoshi comes in and sells his free Bitcoins. It does not matter a single bit. Satoshi comes in, adds 1 million BTCs to Bitstamp, and manages to sell them. The FIAT that Satoshi gets, comes from another user, who came in with his FIAT, and now goes out with his BTCs. Bitstamp didn't create anything, it only reassigned some user's FIAT to Satoshi, and Satoshi's BTC's to some user.


So, IF Bitstamp is going bankrupt, it can only be 2 possibilities:
1. they don't have the BTC's they were supposed to have. How? Hacking, or shady business where Bitstamp would be selling BTCs created out of thin air. That'd be pure fraud.
2. fraud again, if they disappear with everyone's fiat.


People pay Bitstamp thousands per month, can you imagine how many millions/month they make? They are the exchange with the highest fees. They can't lose money other than by frauding. Especially right now, they make a lot of money out of this crash. It's when people aren't trading that they don't make money.
A pure exchange's model can't lose money unless, again, fraud or hacking occured.
If Bitstamp happens to have been selling BTC's that they don't own, then it's fraud, they aren't supposed to do that, it's nowhere in the model of this business, unlike what you seem to think. That's leverage & margin trading, but they don't do this.
You say that Bitstamp "swaps their own Bitcoins for fiat", *where* are they doing this? Where is Bitstamp selling "its own Bitcoins" for fiat exactly?

And I know that normal banks only have to have a reserve of a fraction of people's money. But they're open about that, it's regulated.
What do you think would happen if it was found out that Bitstamp played with people's BTC's or money & lost them? It would be FRAUD, I can't see how they'd get away with it (especially SINCE they aren't regulated). Their "reserve" is what comes in, they aren't supposed to touch it. Why would they touch it anyway? They must be making huge money the legit way, why would they do this?
I have given Bitstamp a few thousands per month, now multiply this by how many users? A few thousands, that's a lot for what's a "simple" website. You can host your website for a few bucks per month. And I've paid THOUSANDS for this simple service. It doesn't even pay for support guys, since (hence this thread) they provide zero support. They must be making A TON of money, especially for the last 3 months.

Bitstamp having been hacked, yeah that's very plausible, as it has already happened. Bitstamp running away with money, same thing, it has already happened for another exchange. That's much more plausible than your theory.


Also, the problems we have with Bitstamp are 1 month old, they can't be related to any crash. This last month has been crazy, while the BTC was stagnating very high, this has been the best month for ALTs, including all those on Bitstamp, they all rised at least 4x.

[kiss moon]

We're talking about a regulated exchange, which needs to have their AUDITS in order. This means, they need to have RESERVES in both crypto (bitcoin) and fiat. The theorem I gave is just as it is, theory to proof an argument. With a backlog as they have, I imagine it will take a lot of time, hence money. So if liabilities > assets without having enough in reserves, they are in trouble.

Do you really think Bitstamp can in infinity swap bitcoins for fiat? Where do they sell their bitcoins to fiat to without having it on their own (worst case, let's say)? You imagine buyers always pay in fiat, you're wrong. A lot of active people have bitcoins for free or for sub $10 that are bailing out for some now. If there are no more new people depositing fiat, how are you suppose to pay out all the withdrawals. Let's say Bitstamp has $100 million in reserves and $1000 is requested to withdraw. You get my point?

You don't make any sense.

Let's start with the facts. Bitstamp has no leverage nor margin trading (only secretly for a happy few in beta, apparently).

So how does Bitstamp work? Pretty basic: people bring their stuff (crypto, fiat) IN, Bitstamp allows people to REASSIGN properties, like "this bitcoin has been moved from X to Y, while this amount of fiat was moved from Y to X", and that IS ALL THEY DO.

Nothing is created, only reassigned.
Again, it has no leverage and no margin, nothing is created, only properties are reassigned. Margin, leverage, tethers, yeah that's true, but that applies to Bitfinex, Kraken & some others, not Bitstamp.

It does not matter if Satoshi comes in and sells his free Bitcoins. It does not matter a single bit. Satoshi comes in, adds 1 million BTCs to Bitstamp, and manages to sell them. The FIAT that Satoshi gets, comes from another user, who came in with his FIAT, and now goes out with his BTCs. Bitstamp didn't create anything, it only reassigned some user's FIAT to Satoshi, and Satoshi's BTC's to some user.


So, IF Bitstamp is going bankrupt, it can only be 2 possibilities:
1. they don't have the BTC's they were supposed to have. How? Hacking, or shady business where Bitstamp would be selling BTCs created out of thin air. That'd be pure fraud.
2. fraud again, if they disappear with everyone's fiat.


People pay Bitstamp thousands per month, can you imagine how many millions/month they make? They are the exchange with the highest fees. They can't lose money other than by frauding. Especially right now, they make a lot of money out of this crash. It's when people aren't trading that they don't make money.
A pure exchange's model can't lose money unless, again, fraud or hacking occured.
If Bitstamp happens to have been selling BTC's that they don't own, then it's fraud, they aren't supposed to do that, it's nowhere in the model of this business, unlike what you seem to think. That's leverage & margin trading, but they don't do this.
You say that Bitstamp "swaps their own Bitcoins for fiat", *where* are they doing this? Where is Bitstamp selling "its own Bitcoins" for fiat exactly?

And I know that normal banks only have to have a reserve of a fraction of people's money. But they're open about that, it's regulated.
What do you think would happen if it was found out that Bitstamp played with people's BTC's or money & lost them? It would be FRAUD, I can't see how they'd get away with it (especially SINCE they aren't regulated). Their "reserve" is what comes in, they aren't supposed to touch it. Why would they touch it anyway? They must be making huge money the legit way, why would they do this?
I have given Bitstamp a few thousands per month, now multiply this by how many users? A few thousands, that's a lot for what's a "simple" website. You can host your website for a few bucks per month. And I've paid THOUSANDS for this simple service. It doesn't even pay for support guys, since (hence this thread) they provide zero support. They must be making A TON of money, especially for the last 3 months.

Bitstamp having been hacked, yeah that's very plausible, as it has already happened. Bitstamp running away with money, same thing, it has already happened for another exchange. That's much more plausible than your theory.


Also, the problems we have with Bitstamp are 1 month old, they can't be related to any crash. This last month has been crazy, while the BTC was stagnating very high, this has been the best month for ALTs, including all those on Bitstamp, they all rised at least 4x.

Now all the coins have fallen in price. The issue with closed accounts is not solved, for money unknown to us, money is not returned. I want to get my money immediately and do not see the legal grounds for keeping my money Bitstamp. I again hear that my money has been sent to my bank and I need to wait for an answer from Bank Bitstamp! How much longer to wait since November 23 and can not solve the peace issue.

[crypt0dude]

We're talking about a regulated exchange, which needs to have their AUDITS in order. This means, they need to have RESERVES in both crypto (bitcoin) and fiat. The theorem I gave is just as it is, theory to proof an argument. With a backlog as they have, I imagine it will take a lot of time, hence money. So if liabilities > assets without having enough in reserves, they are in trouble.

Do you really think Bitstamp can in infinity swap bitcoins for fiat? Where do they sell their bitcoins to fiat to without having it on their own (worst case, let's say)? You imagine buyers always pay in fiat, you're wrong. A lot of active people have bitcoins for free or for sub $10 that are bailing out for some now. If there are no more new people depositing fiat, how are you suppose to pay out all the withdrawals. Let's say Bitstamp has $100 million in reserves and $1000 is requested to withdraw. You get my point?

You don't make any sense.

Let's start with the facts. Bitstamp has no leverage nor margin trading (only secretly for a happy few in beta, apparently).

So how does Bitstamp work? Pretty basic: people bring their stuff (crypto, fiat) IN, Bitstamp allows people to REASSIGN properties, like "this bitcoin has been moved from X to Y, while this amount of fiat was moved from Y to X", and that IS ALL THEY DO.

Nothing is created, only reassigned.
Again, it has no leverage and no margin, nothing is created, only properties are reassigned. Margin, leverage, tethers, yeah that's true, but that applies to Bitfinex, Kraken & some others, not Bitstamp.

It does not matter if Satoshi comes in and sells his free Bitcoins. It does not matter a single bit. Satoshi comes in, adds 1 million BTCs to Bitstamp, and manages to sell them. The FIAT that Satoshi gets, comes from another user, who came in with his FIAT, and now goes out with his BTCs. Bitstamp didn't create anything, it only reassigned some user's FIAT to Satoshi, and Satoshi's BTC's to some user.


So, IF Bitstamp is going bankrupt, it can only be 2 possibilities:
1. they don't have the BTC's they were supposed to have. How? Hacking, or shady business where Bitstamp would be selling BTCs created out of thin air. That'd be pure fraud.
2. fraud again, if they disappear with everyone's fiat.


People pay Bitstamp thousands per month, can you imagine how many millions/month they make? They are the exchange with the highest fees. They can't lose money other than by frauding. Especially right now, they make a lot of money out of this crash. It's when people aren't trading that they don't make money.
A pure exchange's model can't lose money unless, again, fraud or hacking occured.
If Bitstamp happens to have been selling BTC's that they don't own, then it's fraud, they aren't supposed to do that, it's nowhere in the model of this business, unlike what you seem to think. That's leverage & margin trading, but they don't do this.
You say that Bitstamp "swaps their own Bitcoins for fiat", *where* are they doing this? Where is Bitstamp selling "its own Bitcoins" for fiat exactly?

And I know that normal banks only have to have a reserve of a fraction of people's money. But they're open about that, it's regulated.
What do you think would happen if it was found out that Bitstamp played with people's BTC's or money & lost them? It would be FRAUD, I can't see how they'd get away with it (especially SINCE they aren't regulated). Their "reserve" is what comes in, they aren't supposed to touch it. Why would they touch it anyway? They must be making huge money the legit way, why would they do this?
I have given Bitstamp a few thousands per month, now multiply this by how many users? A few thousands, that's a lot for what's a "simple" website. You can host your website for a few bucks per month. And I've paid THOUSANDS for this simple service. It doesn't even pay for support guys, since (hence this thread) they provide zero support. They must be making A TON of money, especially for the last 3 months.

Bitstamp having been hacked, yeah that's very plausible, as it has already happened. Bitstamp running away with money, same thing, it has already happened for another exchange. That's much more plausible than your theory.


Also, the problems we have with Bitstamp are 1 month old, they can't be related to any crash. This last month has been crazy, while the BTC was stagnating very high, this has been the best month for ALTs, including all those on Bitstamp, they all rised at least 4x.

Seriously, you need to reread all my posts. First of all, I gave the possibilities what might have happened if Bitstamp is insolvent. I gave the reasons for a) being hacked/theft; b) committing fraud; c) on the technical side of finances, not having enough liquidity to pay out all withdrawals due to a and/or b. You need to learn to read that my latest theory is based on issues, got it? I'm not accusing Bitstamp of anything, I'm worried about the amount of withdrawal complaints from users all over the place and as adults, can we have an open discussion here or not? That being said, due to theory c, the current situation could be exponentially worse, which might be related to what's going on.

It's amazing how many people are cherry picking posts without taking the entire context in consideration and then base their arguments on a house of cards, just like the MSM does, it's unprofessional.

If they're having issues and cannot handle the load, they should hire more employees, especially if their profits exponentially grew and disclose their clients about issues. Communication is key, especially in a 24/7 environment where big money is at stake. They can learn a lot from Kraken. It's simple as that.

[sarijaya4444]

I hope you all have reported to https://www.actionfraud.police.uk/report-a-fraud-including-online-crime already, that's at least something we can do.

With so many red flags I'd withdraw my money from BS.. but what are the chances it's gonna work..

Hard to imagine an exchange with no tethers and no leverage/margin to have financial troubles, though, I and I really hope they didn't get hacked again.
I don't have much crypto sitting on BS, only fiat. That'd normally be safe, unless they're now using everyone's fiat deposit to buy back stolen crypto, lol that would be bad.

Have you got your money back 

[Kloug]

If they're having issues and cannot handle the load, they should hire more employees, especially if their profits exponentially grew and disclose their clients about issues. Communication is key, especially in a 24/7 environment where big money is at stake. They can learn a lot from Kraken. It's simple as that.

At least we agree on something.


Kraken does provide support btw. It may (still? can't even test their "new" engine, Tradeview crashes my browser now) be the shittiest & most broken exchange, whenever I complained to Kraken, they always answered me. With useless answers, but.. they did.

[Kloug]

I hope you all have reported to https://www.actionfraud.police.uk/report-a-fraud-including-online-crime already, that's at least something we can do.

With so many red flags I'd withdraw my money from BS.. but what are the chances it's gonna work..

Hard to imagine an exchange with no tethers and no leverage/margin to have financial troubles, though, I and I really hope they didn't get hacked again.
I don't have much crypto sitting on BS, only fiat. That'd normally be safe, unless they're now using everyone's fiat deposit to buy back stolen crypto, lol that would be bad.

Have you got your money back 

Neither my XRP's nor any compensation for the value they had. Which is.. pretty much 4x the current value now.

(unlike many I don't have any deposit/withdraw problem, most likely because I haven't tried to deposit/withdraw anything for quite some time [except those few thousands XRP's...])

[crypt0dude]

If they're having issues and cannot handle the load, they should hire more employees, especially if their profits exponentially grew and disclose their clients about issues. Communication is key, especially in a 24/7 environment where big money is at stake. They can learn a lot from Kraken. It's simple as that.

At least we agree on something.


Kraken does provide support btw. It may (still? can't even test their "new" engine, Tradeview crashes my browser now) be the shittiest & most broken exchange, whenever I complained to Kraken, they always answered me. With useless answers, but.. they did.

Yes, that's awesome. My apologies if came over as an asshole  

I like Kraken a lot and the issues seems to be resolved. I've traded there today without any issues and it's a lot faster now (like in May '17). I still wish margin, leverage and stop orders were back though, hopefully within a month.

[pascal257]

Just got my EUR withdrawal from bitstamp after finally completing the stupid KYC.