BFL current state of affairs

[millsdmb]

 

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[arousedrhino]

You can't cancel your order at this point for a refund, they just denied my request.

Don't give up. Call Paypal and explain how BFL is violating the Paypal Terms of Service.

I will do that, I already filed a report with the FTC too.

The point I was trying to make is that you will not get the refund from BFL. Paypal, the FTC or my credit card issuer will have to. If they were an upstanding business they would have immediately processed my refund request.

[k9quaint]

You can't cancel your order at this point for a refund, they just denied my request.

Don't give up. Call Paypal and explain how BFL is violating the Paypal Terms of Service.

I will do that, I already filed a report with the FTC too.

The point I was trying to make is that you will not get the refund from BFL. Paypal, the FTC or my credit card issuer will have to. If they were an upstanding business they would have immediately processed my refund request.

According to the law, a sale is only a sale if you actually received your merchandise. Respond back to BFL that you don't wish to cancel a sale, that you wish to cancel an order. If you like, you can say the reason is because the sale never took place because you never received your product. 

BFL is sneaky saying all sales are final. While true, it does not apply to you.

[ninjarobot]

BFL is sneaky saying all sales are final.

Very true! Never considered that. A sale != order

+1 to you good sir!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Dear PayPal,

I am formally requesting a refund for a product I ordered from BF Labs Inc.

When I ordered, I was led to believe that the item would be FCC certified as stated by Josh Zerlan, BFL's COO, as shown below.

When is the Jalapeno getting FCC approval?

Maybe two weeks? We are waiting for the test lab to issue the test report.

With the bump in power requirements on the MR and the new screen, we had to make changes, although the new screen is already certified.  We are doing all the devices at once, since they all share the same board.

After numerous request as to what the FCC status is, Josh has only once acknowledged the question's existence, as shown in the following exchange:

Haha this is so awesome.  Quoting it so you can't go back and change it later.

PS - Why are you so obsessed with jizz?

According the FCC guidelines, it's illegal for Butterfly Labs to sell such devices, let alone me owning one. Unfortunately, it's forbidden according to my lease to have ANY electrical devices that are not FCC certified or UL approved, of which I just learnt that's another certification BFL hasn't provided.

I am so sorry that PayPal is caught up in this mess, acting as the liaison between two parties in the capacity of money transferring for products that are clearly illegal to ship via the USPS and owned by the public.

I look forward to your reply.

Regards,

Al Paca Bitcoiner.

[erk]

Who's deploying then?  The network hashrate seems to be going up in lockstep with the amount of hashrate we are shipping out, give or take a slight deviation.

Avalon Batch #3 have just been delivered over the past week or two.

[Ytterbium]

Avalon batch #1, 2 and 3 would be about 132TH/s if half of B3 was 4module and the rest 3
Asicminer is about 42.53TH/s

So, that's about 175TH/s right there.  Almost half.

There's also Bitfury out there, and those Avalon chips, if they ever ship. And we're one more month away from KnC, then HashFast.

The problem with what Josh is saying is that A) they couldn't possibly account for even half of the network right now and B) Their customers are still going to get fucked by everyone coming out with chips in September/October/November.
_____

The other thing this shows is that they took these orders knowing that their customers would never ROI in any reasonable time.

Josh is essentially saying they knew they were going to take the difficulty up to 50 million, even when the price of bitcoin was only $5-$10.

So if you bought a 30Gh/s unit from them for $1000 (or whatever) it would still only mine about $2.5-$5 a day worth of bitcoin. That means, excluding electricity, it would take years to ROI in USD. And of course a BTC profit is very unlikely, ever.

It's only because the price of bitcoin has gone up that customers might see a USD profit. When they sold these they knew they were ripping off their customers, and Josh is basically admitting it.

[CoinHoarder]

You miss the point.  You complain that "whatever is in the backlog will never make ROI." and "BFL had their window of opportunity bit it long since closed." as if they are somehow separate issues.  They aren't, which is where you don't understand (you're not alone) how bitcoin mining works.  If BFL had shipped in November, difficulty would be in the same place it is now (actually, it would be much, much higher).  What you and many others fail to understand is that YOUR unit is not the only unit shipping and that is the only scenario where early shipping is beneficial to YOU.  Otherwise, it doesn't much matter when the shipping happens, because your relative difficulty will be functionally the same.  

There is no "window of opportunity." Closed or open... hashrate is hashrate, no matter when it ships.

This is probably the dumbest post I've ever read on these forums.

If BFL was the only company shipping ASICs, then this statement would be mostly true.

However, you're not the only company shipping ASICs. You forgot about ASICMINER and Avalon you silly goose you. Or was this just an attempt at satire?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

If BFL had shipped in November, difficulty would be in the same place it is now (actually, it would be much, much higher).

Note the keyword "if". As in if the rabbit didn't stop to take a shit, it wouldn't have been attacked, killed, then eaten by a coyote.

If BFL had shipped all pre-orders in November, they would have had mega more orders, thus difficulty would be in the same place it is now (actually, it would be much, much higher), and there probably would have been less competition.

If BFL's product line is still so profitable to possess, then what's the big deal in not refunding to all those who ask as they've so gracefully done in the past, for they'll still be able to sell those units to non-monumental assholes?

Surely, they're expecting to build more units after the backlog is shipped, otherwise why the hell are they paying 0.00000001+ BTC for advertising.

They are doing so many things ass-backwards at Camp BFL, it boggles the mind. All they would have to do is snap a simple motherfuckin' pic each showing 200-400 shipping boxes on the dock and posting said pic on the their forum, then they wouldn't have to pay one more motherfuckin' dime for advertising because in this tightly niche market, action speaks louder than words (read advertising copy).

Since they don't do that, there's only one--ONLY ONE--motherfuckin' conclusion to come to--THEY ARE IN THE MOTHERFUCKIN' SCAMMING BUSINESS!

"Get your refund, refunds are fun, get it now, don't walk - run!"

[Inaba]

This is probably the dumbest post I've ever read on these forums.

I take it you've never read your own posts, then?  That explains a lot...

[Todamont]

Here is my prediction of what will happen to bitcoin in 2014. All tech at 65nm or above will become unprofitable to run. Chips at 28nm / 24nm will still be profitable, but only for large mining operations running on industrial electrical rates, in areas with the absolute lowest electricity costs in the world. This means bitcoin will become a network run by a very few, very rich people, who run incorporated mining operations and pay taxes on their mining profits to fiat governments, and only in very select geographical regions. Oops, not very decentralized anymore. Meet the new boss, it's the 1% and they are keeping the fiat status quo in place. Strangely like the old boss...

[MargaretsDream]

Here is my prediction of what will happen to bitcoin in 2014. All tech at 65nm or above will become unprofitable to run. Chips at 28nm / 24nm will still be profitable, but only for large mining operations running on industrial electrical rates, in areas with the absolute lowest electricity costs in the world. This means bitcoin will become a network run by a very few, very rich people, who run incorporated mining operations and pay taxes on their mining profits to fiat governments, and only in very select geographical regions. Oops, not very decentralized anymore. Meet the new boss, it's the 1% and they are keeping the fiat status quo in place. Strangely like the old boss...

¨

Wont happen. It will be like GPU mining, those with cheap electricity will be profitale and those without have to decide what to do

[CoinHoarder]

This is probably the dumbest post I've ever read on these forums.

I take it you've never read your own posts, then?  That explains a lot...

You don't have a rebuttal, so you delete the part in the quote where you are proven wrong and post a snide remark.

Classic Inaba. Thanks for making me smile.

[User705]

Here is my prediction of what will happen to bitcoin in 2014. All tech at 65nm or above will become unprofitable to run. Chips at 28nm / 24nm will still be profitable, but only for large mining operations running on industrial electrical rates, in areas with the absolute lowest electricity costs in the world. This means bitcoin will become a network run by a very few, very rich people, who run incorporated mining operations and pay taxes on their mining profits to fiat governments, and only in very select geographical regions. Oops, not very decentralized anymore. Meet the new boss, it's the 1% and they are keeping the fiat status quo in place. Strangely like the old boss...

And if exchange rate drops all those asic machines become fancy doorstops.  Then you can buy them for cheap.  Patience is a virtue.  It is a long road till block rewards go to 0.

[hermann1983]

So I did some math. According to bfl.ptz.ro and the BFL blog:

Jalapeno: 3575 ordered, 788 shipped, 2787 remaining, 22.04% fulfilled.
Little single: 1230 ordered, 87 shipped, 1143 shipped, 7.07% fulfilled.
Single: 2678 ordered, 233 shipped, 2445 remaining, 8.70% fulfilled.
Mini rig: 185 ordered, 25 shipped (to Josh), 160 remaining, 13.51% fulfilled.

Plugging in their current value to weight the total fulfilment, I come to 10.99% of the order book shipped out. This most likely excludes a much more significant amount of non declared miners at the tail end of the order queue, since the general public is less likely to have known about the website.

Discuss.

The total number of orders is about 5-10 times bigger. So it seems BFL is really sending out proucts containing 300+ chips daily. This giving me hope

[dyingdreams]

Much like I told Flying Hellfish, once you become an adult, you will realize that reality (and the rest of the world) does not care about you.  Reality is what it is, you can accept it or deny it, but it will still be reality.  Nothing needs to be proven, no work needs to be shown.  You either accept reality or you deny it, the choice is up to you.  Reality doesn't care about you and what you believe, and just like I told Mr. Hellfish, neither do I. 

Long story short, you don't care about anyone except yourself.

This is really starting to get sad Josh. You take the time to post nonsensical replies such as this, but refuse to respond to honest questions and criticisms.  No one wants to listen to your cynicism and platitudes (although I'm honestly impressed that you managed to fit three in one sentence). So if you don't have anything meaningful or worthwhile to post..... just go away.

[YipYip]

But honestly, whatever is in the backlog will never make ROI. It is a write-off folks. BFL had their window of opportunity but it has long since closed. Wonder if they are going to come out with Gen2 plans (and perhaps upgrade orders that have been in the queue for over 6 months) or just close up shop.

Someone doesn't understand how bitcoin mining works...

Well sure, if you paid in USD *and* have free energy *and* live a long life. Go for it.

You miss the point.  You complain that "whatever is in the backlog will never make ROI." and "BFL had their window of opportunity bit it long since closed." as if they are somehow separate issues.  They aren't, which is where you don't understand (you're not alone) how bitcoin mining works.  If BFL had shipped in November, difficulty would be in the same place it is now (actually, it would be much, much higher).  What you and many others fail to understand is that YOUR unit is not the only unit shipping and that is the only scenario where early shipping is beneficial to YOU.  Otherwise, it doesn't much matter when the shipping happens, because your relative difficulty will be functionally the same.  

There is no "window of opportunity." Closed or open... hashrate is hashrate, no matter when it ships.

You SPEAK UTTER FUCKING NONSENSE....!

[YipYip]

Who's deploying then?  The network hashrate seems to be going up in lockstep with the amount of hashrate we are shipping out, give or take a slight deviation.

It's like High School, show your work (math) or you get no credit.

Much like I told Flying Hellfish, once you become an adult, you will realize that reality (and the rest of the world) does not care about you.  Reality is what it is, you can accept it or deny it, but it will still be reality.  Nothing needs to be proven, no work needs to be shown.  You either accept reality or you deny it, the choice is up to you.  Reality doesn't care about you and what you believe, and just like I told Mr. Hellfish, neither do I. 

Well you deserve big boy pants dont you.....So what u are trying to say is that you will do what you want and there is no "FAIR" or "RIGHT" there is just what happens in life and as far as you are concerned you are going to do "IT"

Sorry to break your self deluded bullshit...but there is a circuit breaker if you get tooo out of control ...its called "PRISON"

Ask Sonny I am sure he will explain how it works...

[tempestb]

Based on what I've read, you self test for FCC compliance.  You do not file something with the FCC.  The FCC can request from your company a copy of your testing.  If they find that you're in violation, they can have you stop shipping out products or fine you (Or both).  BFL doesn't have to file anything with the FCC unless that is requested of them.

So I think you're banging your drum about a situation that doesn't exist.  You'd basically have to prove to the FCC that BFL is in non-compliance, they'd have to request from BFL the testing results, and then if they are incorrect, then maybe they'd fine them until they are compliant.

Everyone with a non-compliant machine gets to fix it themselves, because the FCC requires the OPERATOR to fix the device, not the manufacturer.  So if you manage to prove that your device isn't compliant, you also get to not use it any more unless you can fix it so it is compliant.

[k9quaint]

Based on what I've read, you self test for FCC compliance.  You do not file something with the FCC.  The FCC can request from your company a copy of your testing.  If they find that you're in violation, they can have you stop shipping out products or fine you (Or both).  BFL doesn't have to file anything with the FCC unless that is requested of them.

So I think you're banging your drum about a situation that doesn't exist.  You'd basically have to prove to the FCC that BFL is in non-compliance, they'd have to request from BFL the testing results, and then if they are incorrect, then maybe they'd fine them until they are compliant.

Everyone with a non-compliant machine gets to fix it themselves, because the FCC requires the OPERATOR to fix the device, not the manufacturer.  So if you manage to prove that your device isn't compliant, you also get to not use it any more unless you can fix it so it is compliant.

The point isn't whether BFL is compelled to get FCC certification. The point is that BFL boasted that they were "two weeks" from getting it back in November of 2012. Phineas is just reminding BFL of their promises, and of the fact that BFL was boasting about a certifying product that could not possibly have existed at that time (given what we know now).