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Author Topic: ☢ LIST ☢ BitcoinTalk's Escrow Providers: Ranking & Blacklist ☠ Avoid Scammers ☠  (Read 24089 times)
philipma1957
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July 26, 2017, 03:06:22 AM
 #141

I would like to point out that OGnasty should be removed from this list as he's not to be trusted.

He still owes me .25BTC from a failed escrow he provided.

You appear to be mistaken.

His payment back to you can be clearly seen in the blockchain:
https://blockchain.info/tx/53fc3f154b358609a4147db3cda09b6be040ce26acdc38443fd5f88d055d20b4

I understand that, according to your your own words, you have a mental issue:

- snip -
I have a mental issue so bear with me...
- snip -


Perhaps you should take that into consideration before throwing out unfounded accusations?

I reviewed this case and it appears that OgNasty rule 2 which can prevent scams and is needed to be enforced has a secondary flaw. 
Which may or may not have occurred in this case.
As I have enough facts to see problems on both sides were possible.
I see that Og has the rule 2 that he enforces to stop scammers  and it does stop scammers,but  an innocent can get caught up in the rule.  This is why
I offered to mediate and was turned down. i.e. I thought isoneguy was an innocent victim .  I believed my solution would have worked.

I understand both parties positions  here  and this is one of the reasons I won't be doing escrows. Since I do not want to use a rule like ognasty's number 2 but if I fail to enforce a rule like it I can be scammed.

I see a flaw in my method that can cause an exploit against me
I see a flaw in OgNasty's method that can cause hardship to an innocent person.
I will try to develop a better method of escrow.  Better then oG's and better then mine.

until then I won't escrow anymore.
I do have 1 outstanding escrow  and will finish that one.

If I figure out a new method that protects everyone I will start again.

To everyone if you use OG Nasty be sure to fully understand his rule 2.  If you do not control the account you send coin  and need a refund you may not get it back.

To the ignorant if you send from coinbase  you may not get a refund.  As OgNasty will refund to the btc addy it come from.

A coinbase send is not from a btc addy you own or control.

so a refund back to it goes to coin bases general accounts  since coins= base has many customers it could take weeks to get it transferred to your coin base account.




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July 26, 2017, 03:24:07 AM
 #142

- snip -
I will try to develop a better method of escrow.  Better then oG's and better then mine.
- snip -

Back when I had the time to handle escrow, my method was:

  • Generate a unique address for the escrow (do not provide it to the transacting parties yet)
  • Ask the paying party to provide a refund address
  • Ask the paid party to provide a release address
  • Ask either party to provide the terms of the agreement
  • Write up an agreement that describes the terms, includes the escrow address, refund address, and release address
  • Send the agreement to both parties to be accepted
  • Make it clear that escrow should NOT be funded until I acknowledge that BOTH parties have accepted the agreement
  • Make it clear that NOTHING should be provided by the paid party until the escrow address has been funded with at least 1 confirmation

Is there a flaw in this method that I'm overlooking?

philipma1957
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July 26, 2017, 10:28:30 AM
 #143

- snip -
I will try to develop a better method of escrow.  Better then oG's and better then mine.
- snip -

Back when I had the time to handle escrow, my method was:

  • Generate a unique address for the escrow (do not provide it to the transacting parties yet)
  • Ask the paying party to provide a refund address
  • Ask the paid party to provide a release address
  • Ask either party to provide the terms of the agreement
  • Write up an agreement that describes the terms, includes the escrow address, refund address, and release address
  • Send the agreement to both parties to be accepted
  • Make it clear that escrow should NOT be funded until I acknowledge that BOTH parties have accepted the agreement
  • Make it clear that NOTHING should be provided by the paid party until the escrow address has been funded with at least 1 confirmation

Is there a flaw in this method that I'm overlooking?


The buyer sends to you a refund address that matches his send address and has control of it.
The deal dies  and the buyer needs a refund.

You go to return the to the designated refund address.  
The buyer lost control of the address.  It can happen and be real and legit.

What do you the escrow do?

If the buyer has a way of proving his identity  do you send to a different refund address?

I can tell you most USA laws  would favor the buyer and the escrow  should send the coin to the new address.



The case with isoneguy and OgNasty

The buyer sends to you a funds with a coinbase address that he does not have  control of it.
The deal dies  and the buyer needs a refund.

You go to return the to the designated refund address.  
The buyer has  no control of the address.  It can happen and be real and legit.

What do you the escrow do?

If the buyer has a way of proving his identity  do you send to a different refund address?

I can tell you most USA laws  would favor the buyer and the escrow  should send the coin to the new address.


This opens up a big can of worms for escrow.
I had a looser system then you or OG

OG   explained the exploit  scammers are trying  and his rule 2 stops the exploit  as does your method.

But  if shit happens and it does sometimes the buyer can lose control of the refund address.

 The escrow  faces a choice  to alter refund address or not. isoneguy  did multiple sales with me  and I have his home address with my records in this case  my mediation would have worked.{i think}  But scammers can do a clever long term scam  with 3 or 4 legit sales  to establish  that a shipping address is good.  

Then create  the isoneguy  vs OG   setup for a large refund  say 10-15 coins.   So I do understand why OG wants rule 2 to stand  .  Just like your rules  if you enforce them it stops the scam.
But it that buyer  truly had lost control  of an address  and  can prove it.  The escrow agent gets put into a spot.
  

I for one no longer think  I can do escrow  and fully protect

The escrow agent
The Buyer
The Seller


This  address is my main address

https://blockchain.info/address/1JdC6Xg3ajT3rge3FgPNSYYFpmf53Vbtje

it is a blockchain.info  hotwallet

I have control of the keys as I imported it from core  years ago.

I send 50 coins to OG  for a large purchase.  Someone breaks into my home and gains control of the wallet.

The deal falls through  I show police reports to OG  and other proof of whom I am.  OG follows rule 2. Sends to a compromised wallet. I have a court case.

change and I did deal with  Danny H  followed his rules

even used my core wallet  that has multiple  hdd backups.

the wallet gets compromised  due to a natural disaster.  I am in NJ so Hurricane Sandy

I proof to Danny this happened he sends to core wallet address effectively burning the money.
I take him to court  he could lose.

So as I see it for now I won't be doing escrow.

As  I do not have a solution  for the issues I see here.

Look  with isoneguy vs og   they both got a bit stubborn (I think)  , but frankly  I am glad it happened as I see issues

in providing escrow I did not see. Possibly  I won't ever do escrow again.

 I do not want to get stuck  or have to stick someone.


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July 26, 2017, 11:41:39 AM
 #144

I never understood why people feel the need of having a stacked address and why it means so much.

For example I installed only at very first touch of bitcoin the qt but i kept it for one day only.

I never signed a message even if I did thousands of transactions over time. I understand the need of a signed message but I don't find it mandatory.

Regarding refund address, for small ammounts I always use poloniex it has only 0.0001 fee so it is perfect for under 0.05 transaction but If i send this ammount to ognasty and the deal with the buyer dissapear where will do the refund?

I was always afraid of this kind of moments. I think it happend one or two years ago and as escrow I used Dabs.

Since that moment the only escrow that I am accepting is bitrated.com . Simple and efficient.

CHANGE FINANCE First Decentralised Global Crypto Bank
LINK TO ICO | LINK TO DISCUSSION
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July 26, 2017, 01:41:35 PM
 #145

- snip -
I see issues in providing escrow I did not see. Possibly I won't ever do escrow again.

I do not want to get stuck  or have to stick someone.

Interesting.  I'm glad I got out of handling escrow when I did.  After reading your example, I can see how it would be an interesting court case if there was effectively a contract that says to send to a particular address, and then before release of escrow a buyer claims that he no longer has exclusive control of that address.

I'm glad I never encountered that.

I suppose as long as both parties agreed, it would be safe to modify the refund address.  However, if the selling party disappears it might become impossible to get their agreement.

Another option might be to state in the agreement that the refund will be sent to any address requested by the buyer once the refund conditions have been met.  As long as you can confirm that the person providing the refund address is the same person that agreed to the buyer side of the agreement, that might work properly?

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July 26, 2017, 11:44:10 PM
 #146

I need escrow services for a quite big ICO. Better more than one.
Organizing payments and handle the moneyflow. A bit more than normal requests.
Pls hide me up if one of the trustfully escrows want join.

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philipma1957
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July 27, 2017, 02:59:25 AM
 #147

- snip -
I see issues in providing escrow I did not see. Possibly I won't ever do escrow again.

I do not want to get stuck  or have to stick someone.

Interesting.  I'm glad I got out of handling escrow when I did.  After reading your example, I can see how it would be an interesting court case if there was effectively a contract that says to send to a particular address, and then before release of escrow a buyer claims that he no longer has exclusive control of that address.

I'm glad I never encountered that.

I suppose as long as both parties agreed, it would be safe to modify the refund address.  However, if the selling party disappears it might become impossible to get their agreement.

Another option might be to state in the agreement that the refund will be sent to any address requested by the buyer once the refund conditions have been met.  As long as you can confirm that the person providing the refund address is the same person that agreed to the buyer side of the agreement, that might work properly?


Yeah  I have to ponder this  as I do escrow to grease the wheels of cryptocoins  more then making profit.  I am USA based  and   this new scam as described to me by OG  and his method to prevent it opens up  these other issues.

At times I do 10000 dollar plus escrows.. making 100 bucks or so at my 1% rate.

 I do not need to do a 35000 dollar escrow  and have this happen to me.

All for the sake of making 1%  say 350 usd.

I also do not need to have to follow  a locked in refund address and get sued for doing so As I burn the buyer by insisting  to send to the fixed refund address.

I am going to look this over a bit more. Before I figure what to do.


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July 27, 2017, 12:29:22 PM
 #148

I need escrow services for a quite big ICO. Better more than one.
Organizing payments and handle the moneyflow. A bit more than normal requests.
Pls hide me up if one of the trustfully escrows want join.
You should try contacting "CET": https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1938190.0
They seem to be suitable enough for your need.

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July 28, 2017, 03:22:55 AM
 #149

I need escrow services for a quite big ICO. Better more than one.
Organizing payments and handle the moneyflow. A bit more than normal requests.
Pls hide me up if one of the trustfully escrows want join.
You should try contacting "CET": https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1938190.0
They seem to be suitable enough for your need.

We tried, but unfortunately we don't find together.

So this service needing is still open.

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July 28, 2017, 10:12:05 AM
 #150

The only thing you can do that would be legal, in that case, would be to abide by your contract. There is no fault in following the contract through, even if it means the coins are lost forever. Everybody knew the deal when they signed it, and just because some freak accidents happened doesn't mean you get to break the contract and open yourself up for a lawsuit. To avoid that you could have them provide multiple addresses for refund. Why does there only need to be one address?

That being said it's unfortunate a lot of people doing escrow are not feeling up to it anymore. It's really hard to use crypto for peer to peer trades. Nobody is protected unless there is an escrow.
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July 29, 2017, 04:39:56 AM
 #151

The only thing you can do that would be legal, in that case, would be to abide by your contract. There is no fault in following the contract through, even if it means the coins are lost forever. Everybody knew the deal when they signed it, and just because some freak accidents happened doesn't mean you get to break the contract and open yourself up for a lawsuit. To avoid that you could have them provide multiple addresses for refund. Why does there only need to be one address?

That being said it's unfortunate a lot of people doing escrow are not feeling up to it anymore. It's really hard to use crypto for peer to peer trades. Nobody is protected unless there is an escrow.
IMO that's the best approach to follow while doing your deals. You can even demand/insist that customer must use (or at least be fully aware of) addresses wich he or she controls the private keys himself/herself (so no exchanges' addresses should be allowed).

BTC BitcoinTalk's Escrow Providers: Ranking & Blacklist BTC Brainwallet & Paper Wallet projects BTC If you think privacy matters, please help keeping these projects alive (donating some coins): Tor BTC Tails BTC Qubes OS BTC Whonix BTC ProtonMail BTC Tutanota BTC VeraCrypt BTC PrivacyTools.io BTC
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July 29, 2017, 03:25:07 PM
 #152

I'd like to be considered for this list as an escrow provider. Smiley

My thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=631008.0
My Trust profile: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=133846

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July 31, 2017, 01:27:50 AM
 #153

The only thing you can do that would be legal, in that case, would be to abide by your contract. There is no fault in following the contract through, even if it means the coins are lost forever. Everybody knew the deal when they signed it, and just because some freak accidents happened doesn't mean you get to break the contract and open yourself up for a lawsuit. To avoid that you could have them provide multiple addresses for refund. Why does there only need to be one address?

That being said it's unfortunate a lot of people doing escrow are not feeling up to it anymore. It's really hard to use crypto for peer to peer trades. Nobody is protected unless there is an escrow.

If you would send coins to an address when seller or buyer told you upfront this address can not be trusted anymore or is invalid then this might serve as a reason to sue if you still sent even being warned.

For big amounts it might make sense to send a small testtransaction to check out if the receiver really is the person you initiated the deal with. Wait some time to see if the real person intervenes and just then release the whole transaction.

Good posts lately. Made me thinking and revising my escrow details.

@philipma1957 What was the scam method happening. It sounds like I might know it but I'm not sure. Is there a link with full description?

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July 31, 2017, 11:44:01 PM
 #154

buyer a
seller b  are the same person

buyer a sends coins with addy 12345

deal dies

buyer a says  addy 12345  is not good asks for refund  to addy 12346

seller never answers    so you decide to refund to addy 12346

buyer  a comes back says account was hacked you refunded to wrong addy


ogNasty  has his I only refund to send addy rule it stops this scam.

But in the isoneguy case  he did not have access to the send address and  he can prove it is still him.  they should have mediated with me.



I looked at it and see both points of view  but  losing a controlled btc addy can happen  and  if it does ogNasty's rule  does not protect the escrow  if he insists on burning the coins by sending to a dead account.

For instance your home  and core wallet floods out  no core the hdd store in a local bank  was also flooded.  refund is sent to a dead addy.

or I die (it will happen) wife proves I am dead and she does not  have password  to the core  but has access to say coinbase.

 Escrow sends to core money = dead  wife sues escrow.

So if I  the escrow act with  the rule 

send address must be  refund address    I am thinking of a few cases that I can be sued.

I am working on a modification to that rule. 

that protects :
 
1)escrow
2)buyer
3)seller



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August 01, 2017, 12:08:33 AM
 #155

buyer a
seller b  are the same person

buyer a sends coins with addy 12345

deal dies

buyer a says  addy 12345  is not good asks for refund  to addy 12346

seller never answers    so you decide to refund to addy 12346

buyer  a comes back says account was hacked you refunded to wrong addy


ogNasty  has his I only refund to send addy rule it stops this scam.

But in the isoneguy case  he did not have access to the send address and  he can prove it is still him.  they should have mediated with me.



I looked at it and see both points of view  but  losing a controlled btc addy can happen  and  if it does ogNasty's rule  does not protect the escrow  if he insists on burning the coins by sending to a dead account.

For instance your home  and core wallet floods out  no core the hdd store in a local bank  was also flooded.  refund is sent to a dead addy.

or I die (it will happen) wife proves I am dead and she does not  have password  to the core  but has access to say coinbase.

 Escrow sends to core money = dead  wife sues escrow.

So if I  the escrow act with  the rule 

send address must be  refund address    I am thinking of a few cases that I can be sued.

I am working on a modification to that rule. 

that protects :
 
1)escrow
2)buyer
3)seller

Was the buyer really hacked? In any case, there is not really something that can be done except providing a further safety level like asking the buyer for a refund address before the deal start. Like Danny suggested. Or buyer and or seller provides a signature or a pgp key that can be used in case a refund has to happen.

Besides that... escrow would have to trust on the identity of the user. User has to make sure that his account is safe and not hacked. Escrow otherwise has to assume that he still deals with the same person.

With bigger amounts it might help to send a small amount first.

I had it happen that someone got hacked. Not sure if one of the users was the hacker or if it was a third party. Hacker had access to the sellers account and changed the receiving address. I asked back 2 times and always only received the answer that it is alright and the right address.

It turned out that the hacker, if it was so, deleted fast every incoming pm I sent to the seller and answered to me. Then deleted it from outbox also. Seller did not receive a notice about what went on. Probably didn't check email or hacker also deactivated email for new pm's. Not sure anymore.

In any case it is hard to protect against. At some level you have to trust that you still deal with the same person and the trader has to protect his account.

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Dabs
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August 03, 2017, 03:48:47 AM
 #156

I'm in the process of handling a $100k USD escrow. But, as I have stated many times, it's not the fiat value, it's the bitcoin that matters. I'm also chomping it into smaller portions over the course of several days.

If the transaction is simple, I usually accept. If it looks too complicated, or I can't see how I can verify either end, I just refuse and refer them to anyone else listed on this thread.

And if it's multi-sig, ... me and Seb have done a few together.

Danny's description seems to be a good one for a proper escrow process. I'd add that for high value (or perceived high value) transactions, I would require users to know how to sign bitcoin messages and GPG/PGP messages.

When you're about to leak NSA secrets to the press, ... PGP was required (and a flight to Honk Kong.)

Escrow Service (Services) - GPG ID: 32AD7565, OTC ID: Dabs
All messages concerning escrow or with bitcoin addresses are GPG signed. Please verify.
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Financisto
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August 09, 2017, 03:52:36 AM
 #157

I'd like to be considered for this list as an escrow provider. Smiley

My thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=631008.0
My Trust profile: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=133846
Just take a look at my last update:  Undecided
«UPDATE»

Newest changes:


monbux has been removed from the list because he was unable to reply our PMs confirming his Escrow service status and operations since February, 2017;

Zepher no longer offers escrow service and is out of the Crypto Escrow Team;

Seccour joined as Escrow agent.

List and all scores refreshed...
The reason is: you never reply my PMs (the last one I sent you in August 03, 2017, 01:53:51 AM)...

...but lets try once more.

If you wanna apply for this list, please post here (or send me PM with) the following info:

1) Which cryptocurrencies do you work with?

2) Minimum and Maximum amount of coins allowed/accepted while using your escrow service (in BTC or USD);

3) Your fees;

4) Do you work with PGP signed messages OR signed messages from an already staked* cryptocurrency's address?

[ * ] Stake your cryptocurrencies' addresses here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=996318.0

BTC BitcoinTalk's Escrow Providers: Ranking & Blacklist BTC Brainwallet & Paper Wallet projects BTC If you think privacy matters, please help keeping these projects alive (donating some coins): Tor BTC Tails BTC Qubes OS BTC Whonix BTC ProtonMail BTC Tutanota BTC VeraCrypt BTC PrivacyTools.io BTC
menikmati
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August 09, 2017, 12:40:43 PM
 #158

Can we nominate some guys? I would suggest ranochigo... > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1306343.msg13377210#msg13377210
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September 17, 2017, 04:27:12 PM
 #159

« UPDATE »

Recent changes:

Mitchell has joined the Crypto Escrow Team;

ranochigo has joined as Escrow Provider.

List and all scores updated...

P.S. I've noticed the overall score and trust points have decreased and some escrow providers have been downgraded as result. Has anything changed related to the forum's trust mechanism?

BTC BitcoinTalk's Escrow Providers: Ranking & Blacklist BTC Brainwallet & Paper Wallet projects BTC If you think privacy matters, please help keeping these projects alive (donating some coins): Tor BTC Tails BTC Qubes OS BTC Whonix BTC ProtonMail BTC Tutanota BTC VeraCrypt BTC PrivacyTools.io BTC
Lauda
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September 17, 2017, 05:31:18 PM
 #160

Has anything changed related to the forum's trust mechanism?
It has not. Some members got booted from DT since your last update, and some negative ratings were thrown around. It was much worse a while back.

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unthy
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