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Author Topic: HASHFAST warranty just TEN DAYS after delivery  (Read 6364 times)
cypherdoc
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August 20, 2013, 08:38:03 PM
 #21

has KNC represented that you can overclock their chips?

Relevant to HastFast warranty how?

in the sense that HF would like to meet the competition.

by reading their 12 mo warranty it appears, to me at least, that you will not be allowed to OC in order to keep the warranty relevant.

i would like to know if it's even possible to OC one.  what have you found out?

the HF chip will be overclockable hence this is a risk that they have to build into the warranty.
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August 20, 2013, 08:41:44 PM
 #22

has KNC represented that you can overclock their chips?

Relevant to HashFast warranty how?
I was going to ask the same thing, but he's off line now.  I hope the answer isn't that Hashfast has represented that you can overclock theirs. 

Because, then, in the context of the warranty, the logic would go:  we say you can overclock, but it will likely burn the chip or some other component, but that's not our fault, since you overclocked it, so we shouldn't have to warranty it. 

I hope I'm totally wrong on that.  That spin would just be, well, too clever by half.
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August 20, 2013, 08:42:56 PM
 #23

30 days? How about 12 months, if you're so certain about your products? Smiley

30 days seems really short for a $4500 computer product - don't most warranties on computer equipment last at least a year??  Even if they offered to sell an extended warrenty it seems like a better idea then putting it at 10 days!  Seriously - if I had it for 11 days and it started on fire and they told me they wouldn't cover it (even though I was operating in all the "appropriate" conditions) I'd be seriously pissed off!  Thanks for catching this...

Miner protection plan that provides raw chips and requires customer to pay more money to get them hashing (90 day MPP): check
Avoiding most consumer protection (which is funny they care about miner protection but not consumer protection, aren't they the same people?): check
10 day warranty for an almost 5k product to go along with all the miner and consumer protection: check
Full payment pre-order months in advance with no refunds possible until 2 months AFTER estimated delivery: check
Clsuter fuck with shopping cart launch (goddamn Kryptonite!): check

Yup they're just like the rest, carry on!
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August 20, 2013, 08:48:27 PM
 #24

the HF chip will be overclockable hence this is a risk that they have to build into the warranty.

That makes no logical sense.   Also, it has nothing whatsoever to do with KnC.  Intel CPUs can be overclocked too, and they come with a three year warranty. http://www.intel.com/support/processors/sb/CS-009862.htm


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August 20, 2013, 08:52:45 PM
 #25

the HF chip will be overclockable hence this is a risk that they have to build into the warranty.

That makes no logical sense.   Also, it has nothing whatsoever to do with KnC.  Intel CPUs can be overclocked too, and they come with a three year warranty. http://www.intel.com/support/processors/sb/CS-009862.htm




sure it does. HF only needs to meet the competition in the asic mining space.  not Intel.  Avalon had no warranties whatsoever and that hasn't stopped ppl from buying their products.

and OC'ing needs to be considered as it is abusive to the equipment as we all know.
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August 20, 2013, 08:59:01 PM
 #26

the HF chip will be overclockable hence this is a risk that they have to build into the warranty.

That makes no logical sense.   Also, it has nothing whatsoever to do with KnC.  Intel CPUs can be overclocked too, and they come with a three year warranty. http://www.intel.com/support/processors/sb/CS-009862.htm




sure it does. HF only needs to meet the competition in the asic mining space.  not Intel.  Avalon had no warranties whatsoever and that hasn't stopped ppl from buying their products.

and OC'ing needs to be considered as it is abusive to the equipment as we all know.


We can easily offer a one year warranty for the box, psu, and module (board).

The chip is trickier. We need some way to discourage overclockers from toasting their chips. Offering unlimited replacements for free would be a bad business model.

I'm not suggesting that people overclock this or any chip. But we all know - some people do overclock. Let's not pretend they don't.

I still pledge to have an updated warranty by EOD.

Amy

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August 20, 2013, 09:01:28 PM
 #27

30 days? How about 12 months, if you're so certain about your products? Smiley

30 days seems really short for a $4500 computer product - don't most warranties on computer equipment last at least a year??  Even if they offered to sell an extended warranty it seems like a better idea then putting it at 10 days!  Seriously - if I had it for 11 days and it started on fire and they told me they wouldn't cover it (even though I was operating in all the "appropriate" conditions) I'd be seriously pissed off!  Thanks for catching this...

I think we should be a little more reasonable.  This is for the most part, experimental equipment that is going to be hacked and over-clocked by the nature of the Bitcoin network.  

Imho, one year is too long and I would say 10 days seems a tad short.  30-60 days is what I would expect.  When you get a one year warranty, you have to remember that the hardware was produced on a billion dollar production line.  Yes the chips are made on this type of line but the rest of the parts are mostly custom and hand produced before shipping.  

Likely this situation will only get worse as a dwindling supply of Bitcoins will be chase by more and more high powered miners.


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August 20, 2013, 09:01:36 PM
 #28

the HF chip will be overclockable hence this is a risk that they have to build into the warranty.

That makes no logical sense.   Also, it has nothing whatsoever to do with KnC.  Intel CPUs can be overclocked too, and they come with a three year warranty. http://www.intel.com/support/processors/sb/CS-009862.htm




sure it does. HF only needs to meet the competition in the asic mining space.  not Intel.  Avalon had no warranties whatsoever and that hasn't stopped ppl from buying their products.

and OC'ing needs to be considered as it is abusive to the equipment as we all know.

So I was right up at post #22.  Son of a bitch; this really is the other side of the looking glass.

You know what?  This is all -and I don't mean just Hashfest- getting to be too much.  

It was fun, interesting to watch the arc of the hardware development, the love affair with KnC, basking in the limelight of the one eyed man in the land of the blind.  

It was amusing to watch the pure scams of the spring and early summer get exposed and trampled.

BCCcoin's work, and the community effort, the spontaneous generation of the cottage industry of Klondike assemblers, was a thing of beauty.  I was actually blindsided by BitSynCom too; I didn't see it coming, although, after the fact, it's so clear with 20-20 hindsight.

But now, I've had it with transparent bullshit.  I've had it with the pre-order model. I've had it with the lies of the promoters.  I've had it with the nonsense they try to rationalize after the fact.

And I've had it with the push-pull of empathy and scorn for the vast pool of ignorant prey animals who are actually people who have hopes and dreams.  

I have to let it go.

I'm still going to be around; Phinneas Gage's investigative work, and the audacity of BFL, are so fascinating I can't let that go.  But as far as Hashfast, cointerra, even KnC goes: as Rhett Butler said better than I could ever hope to do:  Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.  
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August 20, 2013, 09:13:06 PM
 #29

As a customer I'd be happy with 90 day chip warranty to coincide with the MPP and 1 year equipment warranty (case, PSU, cooler, etc.). Thanks Amy for looking into this.



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August 20, 2013, 09:36:04 PM
 #30

the HF chip will be overclockable hence this is a risk that they have to build into the warranty.

That makes no logical sense.   Also, it has nothing whatsoever to do with KnC.  Intel CPUs can be overclocked too, and they come with a three year warranty. http://www.intel.com/support/processors/sb/CS-009862.htm




sure it does. HF only needs to meet the competition in the asic mining space.  not Intel.  Avalon had no warranties whatsoever and that hasn't stopped ppl from buying their products.

and OC'ing needs to be considered as it is abusive to the equipment as we all know.


We can easily offer a one year warranty for the box, psu, and module (board).

The chip is trickier. We need some way to discourage overclockers from toasting their chips. Offering unlimited replacements for free would be a bad business model.

I'm not suggesting that people overclock this or any chip. But we all know - some people do overclock. Let's not pretend they don't.

I still pledge to have an updated warranty by EOD.

Amy

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HashFast

Lolz.
"Chip Specifications

28nm custom ASIC
Hashing Output: 400 Gigahash/s at nominal clock speed
Power Consumption: significantly less than 1.0 W/GH at nominal clock speed
Designed to be underclocked for greater efficiency – better than 0.5 W/GH*
Designed to be overclocked for greater performance – better than 500GH/s**"


It's designed to overclock, but we need some way to discourage people from doing it.  
So we only guarantee our chips for ten days -- no matter what clock you run them at. Cool
Surprize!
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August 20, 2013, 09:44:12 PM
 #31

the HF chip will be overclockable hence this is a risk that they have to build into the warranty.

That makes no logical sense.   Also, it has nothing whatsoever to do with KnC.  Intel CPUs can be overclocked too, and they come with a three year warranty. http://www.intel.com/support/processors/sb/CS-009862.htm




sure it does. HF only needs to meet the competition in the asic mining space.  not Intel.  Avalon had no warranties whatsoever and that hasn't stopped ppl from buying their products.

and OC'ing needs to be considered as it is abusive to the equipment as we all know.

So I was right up at post #22.  Son of a bitch; this really is the other side of the looking glass.

You know what?  This is all -and I don't mean just Hashfest- getting to be too much.  

It was fun, interesting to watch the arc of the hardware development, the love affair with KnC, basking in the limelight of the one eyed man in the land of the blind.  

It was amusing to watch the pure scams of the spring and early summer get exposed and trampled.

BCCcoin's work, and the community effort, the spontaneous generation of the cottage industry of Klondike assemblers, was a thing of beauty.  I was actually blindsided by BitSynCom too; I didn't see it coming, although, after the fact, it's so clear with 20-20 hindsight.

But now, I've had it with transparent bullshit.  I've had it with the pre-order model. I've had it with the lies of the promoters.  I've had it with the nonsense they try to rationalize after the fact.

And I've had it with the push-pull of empathy and scorn for the vast pool of ignorant prey animals who are actually people who have hopes and dreams.  

I have to let it go.

I'm still going to be around; Phinneas Gage's investigative work, and the audacity of BFL, are so fascinating I can't let that go.  But as far as Hashfast, cointerra, even KnC goes: as Rhett Butler said better than I could ever hope to do:  Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.  

You forgot Bitfury! Expensive with working product but not as expensive as Block Eruptors..
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August 20, 2013, 09:54:09 PM
Last edit: August 20, 2013, 10:18:27 PM by zedicus
 #32

1yr Manufacturer Warranty is Standard across the electronics industry.

To be honest im not suprised...




Its a shame, i was actually rooting for them. At this point its blatantly obvious that hashfast has some issues that reflects the type of perception they have .. 10 days.. Thats laughable! Its almost pathetic.. Its a blatant spit in the face to people ponying up 5k+ to support them.
 

You can do alot better hashfast.  

I think these Asic companys are under the impression they can sustain a cycle of high prices, piss poor support, and products that are outdated when they get into customers hands. Its down right embarrassing, some of these venture's cant even put up a website with a half decent shopping cart. They cant even write a privacy policy or mission statements.. they are using templates and basically are under the impression that their customers are there to be abused.

Its not just one company.. its the whole lot of them! Its almost standard practice to have the website fail during purchase! Were are talking large purchase's and not some $30 trinket off ebay! These Asic company's have their nose so high in the air that they are not even responding to tickets or calls for support. Its not just Avalon who cant put up a simple site to take orders .. its Avalon, xcrowd, hashfast, bfl and between them they have set a standard of ABUSE!  

Look at all the customers who have basically been spit on ... Their requests for refunds fall on deaf ears, missing orders, no confirmation emails..  No reps making announcements. While you the customer do your part and pay dearly in btc and or cash to the tune of thousands sometimes tens of thousands, the companies are basically swimming in your cash and parleying it into multi million dollar ventures that are able to operate without YOU!

Once they have your btc or $, they will just use it for development and mine themselves! They have absolutely zero incentive to support or back their products. They have ZERO incentive to provide an even half way decent support system.

I am not at the least bit surprised at a 10 day warranty. In fact i would have expected it to be 3 days.. with a requirement that you need a notarized letter from hasfast accepting the return with a minimum wait time of 3 months and YOU pay the cost of shipping both ways!

Its really reflective not only on their perception of their position but its also reflective of their company, their standards.. and its a SIGN of whats to come! This wont be the last time an ASIC company spits in our face but until people DEMAND a standard of better behavior its not going to get better!

Maybe when need to have a sub forum of lawyers on site that are pro consumer and ready to take action for some of these group buy and even some of the individuals that paid and are getting the run around!


Imagine the kind of gut wrenching feeling you will have when your piss poor product blows a bunch of capacitors on the 11th day!!  

If its not a piss poor product than the manufacturer will support it with a decent warranty because they have faith in their engineering, materials and build quality!

But thats not the case here. What we have are a group of Asic developers who have standardized making products that have a minimal lifespan and they back it with piss poor websites, piss poor support, piss poor marketing and an overall feeling that after they take your funds you are going to be lucky if you ever see a product let alone find ROI!

While they on the other hand are swimming in profits and have no intention of delivering their promises!

https://hashfast.com/shop/babyjet/

See the bottom on the babyjet web page, the part that labeled shipping!

See how it says "Shipments "anticipated" to begin: October 20-30, in order of purchase"

I anticipate that im going to be a millionaire by 2016 but that doesn't mean its remotely going to happen! Your selling a time sensitive product that looses its purchase value astronomically if its not delivered on time!

We don't want "anticipation" we want a guarantee!!

I dont mean to be over critical of hashfast.. because i was over critical of KNC and i "may" have misspoken but and as it stands im not so sure buying an ASIC from "anyone" is a smart move as KNC hasn't shown a working product either. I had a lot of faith in Avalon and that has all but diminished. I think they let things get out of control and it may just be circumstances out of their control but the trail of blood from their chip sales tell a different story... Cointerra seemed like they were going to finally set the ASIC space straight but they are a rinse and repeat of the business models and practices currently in place!  


Until we have one company that will put us first.. Its "difficult" at best to take them seriously!




 
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August 20, 2013, 10:12:02 PM
 #33


I think these Asic companys are under the impression they can sustain a cycle of high prices, piss poor support, and products that are outdated when they get into customers hands. Its down right embarrassing, some of these venture's cant even put up a website with a half decent shopping cart. They cant even write a privacy policy or mission statements.. they are using templates and basically are under the impression that their customers are there to be abused.

They are under that impression because there are enough optimistic buyers to support them.  Just look at the Monarch, it appears to be selling well despite all Josh and BFL have done to try and convince people not to buy their stuff!  Look at the numbers from an investment stand point, there is a very strong argument that simply buying and holding BTC is a much less risky investment than mining, and even if mining pays off as a better investment the margin of extra profit doesn't seem to correlate to the extra risk associated with it (again look at BFL for clear examples of how holding BTC would have been significantly better than mining).  For every person that doesn't like or support these type of companies there are 20 optimists waiting to take the gamble cause hey mining with ASIC will make you filthy rich now right?

See my signature regarding websites.
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August 20, 2013, 10:48:02 PM
 #34

^^ Nice sig! Its spot on!!

 
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August 20, 2013, 10:51:00 PM
 #35

HashFast are an utter joke.
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August 21, 2013, 01:53:39 AM
 #36

Avalon has zero warranty.  Did it stop anyone then?  Maybe a few...
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August 21, 2013, 02:06:42 AM
 #37

when you talk to the lawyer you might want want to run past them if they think it is a good idea to have a warrantee that is shorter than the terms of the MPP.

    The MPP isn't based on your actual ROI It's based on the ROI you should be able to achieve taking into account the network difficulty and nominal performance so if you did something stupid and killed your chip that's not covered so I don't see why the warranty length being less than the ROI time frame is inconsistent.
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August 21, 2013, 02:13:15 AM
 #38

I'm not implying that HashFast is doing this but it would make sense that a mining hardware company that both sells hardware and mines themselves would offer an extremely short warranties.

They then could use extremely cheap components that have a mean time failure to failure measured in the days or weeks. They would then pre-sell as much hardware as possible before they ship. Then, after shipping the average miner would die in a month. They wouldn't get new orders because their reputation would suffer but it wouldn't matter because they would have pre-sold all the hardware they planned on making. Finally, and this is the key part, since all the hardware they sold is now dead, the difficulty would stay nice and low for their own mining operation.
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August 21, 2013, 04:02:01 AM
 #39

Thanks for the details Simon.

If the chip is rated for 5years at 500GH, why is the warranty only 10 to 30 days?

Because with open source software, and overclocking we don't know what people will try and push these things to do.

We've spent some of the day hashing (!) over warranty options for those chips of ours.

As I mentioned earlier today, the 10-day warranty was legal boilerplate. And we can and will give a longer warranty for the box, psu, and board.

But for the chips, we cannot realistically offer even a 90-day warranty.

   Because with open source software, and overclocking we don't know what people will try and push these things to do.

What we *can* offer is a program to replace fried chips. You break one (after some initial period - 10 days?), you ship it back to us, and we will send you a new one. Probably including the motherboard, to be safe. Not for free, mind you. But for a helluva lot cheaper than a new mining rig.

We are still working out the details (logistics and price).

We're just assuming that someone, somewhere out there will push the chips too hard. And we are trying to do right by those people, without being chumps.

Check out the thread starting around https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262052.msg2976145#msg2976145 for discussion of some of the technology that makes our chips run cool & fast.

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August 21, 2013, 01:39:33 PM
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Thanks for the details Simon.

If the chip is rated for 5years at 500GH, why is the warranty only 10 to 30 days?

Because with open source software, and overclocking we don't know what people will try and push these things to do.

We've spent some of the day hashing (!) over warranty options for those chips of ours.

As I mentioned earlier today, the 10-day warranty was legal boilerplate. And we can and will give a longer warranty for the box, psu, and board.

But for the chips, we cannot realistically offer even a 90-day warranty.

   Because with open source software, and overclocking we don't know what people will try and push these things to do.

What we *can* offer is a program to replace fried chips. You break one (after some initial period - 10 days?), you ship it back to us, and we will send you a new one. Probably including the motherboard, to be safe. Not for free, mind you. But for a helluva lot cheaper than a new mining rig.

We are still working out the details (logistics and price).

We're just assuming that someone, somewhere out there will push the chips too hard. And we are trying to do right by those people, without being chumps.

Check out the thread starting around https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=262052.msg2976145#msg2976145 for discussion of some of the technology that makes our chips run cool & fast.

Dear Amy,

You claim that your chip is engineered to be overclocked. 
You refuse to guarantee the chip for more than 10 days, because it could be overclocked.
Are you as delighted as i am by a peculiar ... je ne sais quoi this creates?
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