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stenkross
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November 15, 2013, 01:33:15 PM |
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We all already knew there were bad and even worse news. But TF, you're not doing yourself any favors by keeping us in the dark about everything. If anything, it'll make things worse as some of us will think they'll never get to see ANY of their money and they'll pursue legal action instead, thus completely destroying any chances for the rest of us, and for yourself.
In fact he is. This CL story has been a shady operation from day 1. Put yourself in TF's shoes for a minute, and let's assume you made a honest misstake by having too much btc in the hot wallet and that this was not an insider job/scam. He is now facing a possible class action lawsuit from dumbfruit, and who knows how many that will tag along on that lawsuit. If TF show all transactions, active loans to the public, he gives his future legal opponents all they want. Don't get me wrong, I understand why dumbfruit is doing it, he lost a shitload of btc. But I also realize that TF will most likely never give out a CL balance sheet to the public. Anything you say (or post on bitcointalk) can and WILL be used against you. |
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gaston909
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November 15, 2013, 01:44:23 PM |
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We all already knew there were bad and even worse news. But TF, you're not doing yourself any favors by keeping us in the dark about everything. If anything, it'll make things worse as some of us will think they'll never get to see ANY of their money and they'll pursue legal action instead, thus completely destroying any chances for the rest of us, and for yourself.
In fact he is. This CL story has been a shady operation from day 1. Put yourself in TF's shoes for a minute, and let's assume you made a honest misstake by having too much btc in the hot wallet and that this was not an insider job/scam. He is now facing a possible class action lawsuit from dumbfruit, and who knows how many that will tag along on that lawsuit. If TF show all transactions, active loans to the public, he gives his future legal opponents all they want. Don't get me wrong, I understand why dumbfruit is doing it, he lost a shitload of btc. But I also realize that TF will most likely never give out a CL balance sheet to the public. Anything you say (or post on bitcointalk) can and WILL be used against you. But it's not just about lack of transparency. He gave a 100% refund to one user and 0% to everyone else. That looks pretty bad. Not even 1% refund. |
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gaston909
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November 15, 2013, 01:54:44 PM |
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Hi all,
My 2 cents, which is all the investment I have left after this debacle.
Dumbfruit, I don't think it is time yet for a suit. There may be some possibility still of us getting something back. TF has acted irresponsibly; even better communication would have gone a long way. But, he is still communicating and does seen to be intent on getting something back for his investors. Also, just as I thought, when things got tough, the people who he relied on suddenly got real quiet.
Given a bit more time, FT might be able to scrape something together to make us feel like we got something back. Put him on the wrong side of a lawsuit and there won't BE anything to get back. On the other hand, if we give him this chance and he renigs, I'll join a suit just for spite.
To TradeFortress. You promised a mass email. I think you made this promise when you thought you could get payment or promise of payments and make a plan of how and how much we would get reimbursed. I am happy you tried and continue to try.
I do think you should make better use of the community here to try to get payment from your non-responders. If they are renigging on you, they are bad businesses and informing the public is a service. You have partly done that today. Do it more. Let us be your partners in this. You also said that some of your debtors are having trouble because of the exchange rate. It is my entirely uninformed opinion that this run up is going to crash hard. Talk with them about making good after a crash. Tell them to just keep making payments as normal!
One thing to do also is see if there are people willing to cash out now for a steep haircut and those willing to let their BTC sit with you while you get the debtors to make good. If you could make a reasonable guarantee that in six months I could get, say 80% as opposed to 20% today, I might consider my options and feel well served. Not happy, mind you, but at least respected and not desparate, which is kind of the feeling I have right now.
I hope you also getting people to try to find the hackers. If you asked for help with this, you never know what might happen. Getting the coins back might be a different thing, but finding out who they are... Consider putting a bounty up.
You still have people here who would be patient and help you if you asked and if you were more forthcoming. You have yourself admitted that you messed up big, so if there are any more revelations, they shouldn't sting as bad.
I do also think that you must write the email you promised and not just a post here. This is important because you are making us come looking for you. Take the initiative and be in touch with us. Do include a sit-rep and do be realistic. We already know this sucks, so tell us how bad instead of making us guess. Do tell us when and how much we'll be able to get back. You don't really know, I know; but give a range going from poor to ok case scenario. If it turns out better, yay. But not getting hopes up is important too.
If you want help in pressuring creditors and in asking for help tracking down the bad guys, I would let you use my website, bitcoinwarrior.net, as a place to post calls to action and updates.
This loss has really hurt me. If is my fault for investing it and I take responsibility for making that decision. I am, however, interested in making back what I can. If I can help you in the process, well that ok too.
Edited for clarity and iphone fingers.
Wasting your time. Nobody is getting 80% The situation is worse than he let on which is why he is so terrified of being transparent. Maybe it was the rise in BTC which prompted this "theft" - pure speculation ALL CL liquid funds are gone/stolen. A portion of his debtors wont repay after loosing money on inputs. for them its already settled. He accidentally* lent to people vulnerable to the btc rate and they cant repay. His shares and other investments are wiped out as he said. He gave his personal funds to cover inputs users rather than CL. It sounds like a 50,60,70 or 80% loss to me but as of this moment it is 100% loss. People wont accept that TF. Give the dog a bone. A fractional % to ease some pain, some communication with your users, a commitment to dealing with current debts in a smart way rather than bailing on future payments for substantial discounts. If the rate drops you will feel even worse. |
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gorgorom
Full Member
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Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Inject Its Venom Into Your Veins
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November 15, 2013, 02:13:14 PM |
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Lol.
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stenkross
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November 15, 2013, 02:17:33 PM |
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But it's not just about lack of transparency. He gave a 100% refund to one user and 0% to everyone else. That looks pretty bad. Not even 1% refund.
That is true, I think he admitted that 100% refund was a misstake he made before he had made up his mind to halt refunds to CL depositors. Regarding the rest of us, we haven't gotten anything YET. I believe this whole story will require a lot of time to play out, and TF has given us 4 users that are "impossible to reach when talking about their debt". I've sent them all a message. If they don't respond, I'll contact them via email/twitter/snail mail if I can get a hold of that information. The only thing I can do right now, is to (in a friendly manner) ask these users to contact TF or choose to continue to F5 my blood watchlist, and my F5 is getting worn out... |
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gaston909
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November 15, 2013, 02:23:23 PM |
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Yes,
I think if anyone here still has any hope left. Pursuing those depositors is one of the few things you can do. If they decided to pay up, maybe tf would be more transparent. But be honest - can you really chase these people when you have NONE of the details. For all you know, they lost everything they had on inputs and they consider it settled.
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JohnHarmer
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November 15, 2013, 02:24:19 PM |
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TF,
You lied us on something obviously.
I can understand bcz i think most of us will do same thing when we first faced so bad situation, specially at a early age.
And you have learned a lot after what you've been through, CL and Inputs.io should more safe and power in future then.
Your update show it's hard time for everyone now.
So i decided CL could frozen my 327 btc for 1 year with 0% interst.
Hope this help.
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TradeFortress|吴泽岳's profile:www.wuzeyue.org
吴泽岳要钱要命你自己选，不信你就等着
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manort
Newbie
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Activity: 27
Merit: 0
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November 15, 2013, 02:50:19 PM |
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Hi all,
I have sent all of the people TF highlighted messages letting them know that I am interested in writing an article for my website (bitcoinwarrior.net), something like "the anatomy of a bitcoin hack" for my website. I have said that if they are not communicating with TF about their debts that I would be including their businesses as ones that are questionable, liable to scams and frauds, given that they do not honor their debts.
I have also sent an email to TF asking if he has done anything to see if we could identify the hackers. It seems that those BTC have been moved around. It might be possible to tie some of those addresses to a name. It would still probably be impossible to get the BTC back, but it might make future hackers a little more wary if they can be exposed and shamed. I am not technical enough to know about this, but if anyone has any expertise, please let me know.
The situation is dire, but I don't feel like crying into my pillow just yet.
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DebitMe
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2786
Merit: 1011
Get Paid Crypto To Walk or Drive
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November 15, 2013, 02:54:44 PM |
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Perhaps we can get an extensive list of who is not communicative so that negative feedback can be left and websites can be boycotted until loans are addressed?
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ChaosFox
Full Member
Offline
Activity: 178
Merit: 100
Certified fox posing as a cat posing as a human
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November 15, 2013, 03:02:07 PM |
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I'm not sure if ganging up on TF's debtors is the best course of action right now, especially if they've also lost funds in Inputs. I see it as if he's just trying to shift some of the blame. Requesting information and politely ask for them to repay their loans, yes. But boycotts and threats of legal action should be the last recourse, especially given how Bitcoin is currently seen by the law.
I fear nobody will get to see their money at all if TF is brought to a class-action lawsuit (How the hell would it be settled?) and any remaining funds are seized, and even if it's purely out of spite, they'll be just in to increase their losses.
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itsBusinessTime
Newbie
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Activity: 19
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November 15, 2013, 03:10:21 PM |
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TF,
I don't give a shit about coins you don't have. That's your responsibility to get them back. In the meantime, you do have some BTC and you need to pay that BTC out. Any BTC you collect later, you can distribute later. It's not that hard.
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DebitMe
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2786
Merit: 1011
Get Paid Crypto To Walk or Drive
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November 15, 2013, 03:10:30 PM |
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I'm not sure if ganging up on TF's debtors is the best course of action right now, especially if they've also lost funds in Inputs. I see it as if he's just trying to shift some of the blame. Requesting information and politely ask for them to repay their loans, yes. But boycotts and threats of legal action should be the last recourse, especially given how Bitcoin is currently seen by the law.
I fear nobody will get to see their money at all if TF is brought to a class-action lawsuit (How the hell would it be settled?) and any remaining funds are seized, and even if it's purely out of spite, they'll be just in to increase their losses.
Whereas I agree about the legal actions, if he is brought under lawsuit we can basically kiss our losses goodbye, I must respectfully disagree about the debtors. From the sounds of it, they are going out of their way to not address TF's emails/PM's. I think we can all basically agree that everyone that he mentioned earlier is on this board everyday and for them to claim that it has been this long and they, "just haven't noticed what happened" would be an outright lie. They are purposefully ignoring his requests and if we as a community can put some pressure on them to get in contact and work out some form of repayment schedule, then I think that is a good course of action, as we have the power to hurt their lively hood by taking business away which they do not want, otherwise their does not seem to be much recourse for not honoring their debts. |
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gaston909
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November 15, 2013, 03:13:20 PM |
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TF,
You lied us on something obviously.
I can understand bcz i think most of us will do same thing when we first faced so bad situation, specially at a early age.
And you have learned a lot after what you've been through, CL and Inputs.io should more safe and power in future then.
Your update show it's hard time for everyone now.
So i decided CL could frozen my 327 btc for 1 year with 0% interst.
Hope this help.
Look, one of your investors just offered you 327 BTC of "liquidity" for one year at zero cost.
IF TF still thinks he can afford to ignore his investors. Him and we are doomed in this situation. It would be beyond stupid. |
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manort
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 27
Merit: 0
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November 15, 2013, 03:26:05 PM |
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I wholeheartedly agree. We need to let them know that walking away from their CoinLenders debt will follow them into their other businesses. I'm not sure if ganging up on TF's debtors is the best course of action right now, especially if they've also lost funds in Inputs. I see it as if he's just trying to shift some of the blame. Requesting information and politely ask for them to repay their loans, yes. But boycotts and threats of legal action should be the last recourse, especially given how Bitcoin is currently seen by the law.
I fear nobody will get to see their money at all if TF is brought to a class-action lawsuit (How the hell would it be settled?) and any remaining funds are seized, and even if it's purely out of spite, they'll be just in to increase their losses.
Whereas I agree about the legal actions, if he is brought under lawsuit we can basically kiss our losses goodbye, I must respectfully disagree about the debtors. From the sounds of it, they are going out of their way to not address TF's emails/PM's. I think we can all basically agree that everyone that he mentioned earlier is on this board everyday and for them to claim that it has been this long and they, "just haven't noticed what happened" would be an outright lie. They are purposefully ignoring his requests and if we as a community can put some pressure on them to get in contact and work out some form of repayment schedule, then I think that is a good course of action, as we have the power to hurt their lively hood by taking business away which they do not want, otherwise their does not seem to be much recourse for not honoring their debts. |
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gaston909
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November 15, 2013, 03:27:15 PM |
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if he does iignore it, its a sign he is ignoring his reasponsibilities and bailing on this cl thing.
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DumbFruit
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November 15, 2013, 04:54:39 PM |
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I fear nobody will get to see their money at all if TF is brought to a class-action lawsuit (How the hell would it be settled?) and any remaining funds are seized, and even if it's purely out of spite, they'll be just in to increase their losses.
Not necessarily. Having access to subpoena and debt collecting agencies would be a great help... As an example; The hacker or TradeFortress himself could have sent the btc to Mt.Gox thinking he could speculate on the price rise. We have absolutely no way of knowing right now because Mt.Gox employees wont even talk to us. Not to mention all of the information TradeFortress refuses to disclose and the mountain of suspicious activity surrounding his actions over the past month.. I have no problem working with TradeFortress, but he has shown absolutely no interest in the idea. |
By their (dumb) fruits shall ye know them indeed...
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gotpetum
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November 15, 2013, 06:45:17 PM |
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Hi TF,
Before you make any decisions about how repayment will happen, I want to remind you of BTCINVEST's unique situation.
After the Inputs theft, investors of BTCINVEST had their shares partially liquidated and deposited as CL credits. The actual BTC from the liquidation, which were not stolen or voluntarily deposited to CL, are probably slated to contribute to the reimbursement of CL deposits.
If BTCINVEST deposits are considered equivalent to CL deposits, then BTCINVESTers will be paying (approx.) the cost of the depreciated AM shares twice, once for seemingly no good reason.
.2 * .2 * [investment value] = .04 * [investment value]!
Thanks!
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"The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations." ― David M. Friedman
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gaston909
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November 15, 2013, 06:47:28 PM |
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I fear nobody will get to see their money at all if TF is brought to a class-action lawsuit (How the hell would it be settled?) and any remaining funds are seized, and even if it's purely out of spite, they'll be just in to increase their losses.
Not necessarily. Having access to subpoena and debt collecting agencies would be a great help... As an example; The hacker or TradeFortress himself could have sent the btc to Mt.Gox thinking he could speculate on the price rise. We have absolutely no way of knowing right now because Mt.Gox employees wont even talk to us. Not to mention all of the information TradeFortress refuses to disclose and the mountain of suspicious activity surrounding his actions over the past month.. I have no problem working with TradeFortress, but he has shown absolutely no interest in the idea. Amen. TF has no desire to cooperate with his investors, getting coinchat back up however, was of vast importance. |
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