Merit Bounties

[EthanB]

I was just scrolling around Meta, reading about the new merit system and I am seeing so many negative posts complaining about the system that is meant to really improve things around here. I personally am digging the new changes and seeing all of these people uncomfortable just tells me that there is great change occurring.

While I see there are a few threads where users are throwing around their merit to worthy posts, there is still a valid concern about there being a lack of merit to be distributed in relation to how many high-quality posts truly get put out each day by members nobody recognizes. Now this will of course get remedied over time as more merit sources are created and more generous users accumulate merit in their own hands.

However I have a proposal to get the juices flowing and ease some of the fears about distribution. It does not seem to be the world's biggest secret who a few of the merit sources are (Lutpin, for example), and there are many other users with a ton of merit to go around. My proposal is a contest of sorts; we could have users enter their posts or their profiles and after a given amount of time (or every so often) there is/are winner(s) chosen to receive a merit reward. Meaning the greatest poster(s) every week or so would be given a Merit Bounty for their high-quality, significant or contributory posts; preferably from public Merit sources or a pool or merit generated from willing participants around the community.

I'm very interested in thoughts on developing this further, volunteers, contrarians and merit sources are needed. I don't know how you all feel about this, so let me know how you feel; let me know if I've even explained this well enough for you to make up your mind. The parameters are negotiable and discuss-able, but I just have the basic framework and a few different routes/options to play with.

[1715309631]

1715309631

[Thirio]

I was just scrolling around Meta, reading about the new merit system and I am seeing so many negative posts complaining about the system that is meant to really improve things around here. I personally am digging the new changes and seeing all of these people uncomfortable just tells me that there is great change occurring.

While I see there are a few threads where users are throwing around their merit to worthy posts, there is still a valid concern about there being a lack of merit to be distributed in relation to how many high-quality posts truly get put out each day by members nobody recognizes. Now this will of course get remedied over time as more merit sources are created and more generous users accumulate merit in their own hands.

However I have a proposal to get the juices flowing and ease some of the fears about distribution. It does not seem to be the world's biggest secret who a few of the merit sources are (Lutpin, for example), and there are many other users with a ton of merit to go around. My proposal is a contest of sorts; we could have users enter their posts or their profiles and after a given amount of time (or every so often) there is/are winner(s) chosen to receive a merit reward. Meaning the greatest poster(s) every week or so would be given a Merit Bounty for their high-quality, significant or contributory posts; preferably from public Merit sources or a pool or merit generated from willing participants around the community.

I'm very interested in thoughts on developing this further, volunteers, contrarians and merit sources are needed. I don't know how you all feel about this, so let me know how you feel; let me know if I've even explained this well enough for you to make up your mind. The parameters are negotiable and discuss-able, but I just have the basic framework and a few different routes/options to play with.

If my memory is correct, TMAN is already doing this. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2825523.0)

There are also other highranks doing this, and even some member. Here's a link (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2832127.0) that contains these kinds of contest and such that reward low ranks and even high ranks merits that they deserve.

[owlcatz]

I'm also doing this so please stop creating new threads about it, thanks!

[EthanB]

I'm also doing this so please stop creating new threads about it, thanks!

I just looked through your posts all the way back until the Merit system was announced and I cannot see a single instance of you doing something that would resemble what I am asking/suggesting at all. I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding, lying or just don't care. Either way, you have been less than helpful. This is my first thread about this, thanks! Almost all of your merit (if not all of it) has gone to Legendaries or Heroes that do not need or cannot rank up.

If my memory is correct, TMAN is already doing this. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2825523.0)

There are also other highranks doing this, and even some member. Here's a link (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2832127.0) that contains these kinds of contest and such that reward low ranks and even high ranks merits that they deserve.

If you have a direct link, then I would say that is more than just memory. I appreciate the link, because this is pretty similar to what I have in mind, although it does seem unfortunate that only TMAN is making the decision and there is only one recipient each round(week). I was hoping for a larger scale operation, and I know this community isn't much for centralization, but something maybe very similar to what they are already doing, but more involved or on a larger scale. I was unaware TMAN was doing something like this. It also seems unclear how much merit is being distributed through TMAN and these other various giveaways popping up around the site. It would be nice to have a few more sanctioned, structured merit bounties. Do you guys believe these current contests/giveaways to be sufficient for the entire forum or for the full implementation of the merit system?

[TMAN]

Op you are merit farming, using 10 words when one will do. Give it up

[EthanB]

Op you are merit farming, using 10 words when one will do. Give it up

Thoroughly explaining myself and trying to be precise with my words so that I get my point across is merit farming and using too many words? That's 2 high-ranking members offering nothing constructive to the idea at all. TMAN, I was honestly looking forward to reading your reply when I saw you had responded, since you're one of the few people doing something similar to what I'm asking.

I was thinking you would be open to expanding your "contest", collaborating with others and trying to scale what you are doing to a greater degree. Give what up?

I do not want merit. I do not care about ranking up or acquiring these points. I am happy with where I am at, but I thought it would be nice to use the new system in interesting ways. I encourage you to say exactly the same things I have in my post, without losing any meaning, significance or caveats with 10x less words; could be a fun exercise, because I think you're being pompous.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I gave OP a merit point because he obviously put some thought into his posts, which is more than can be said for 90% of users here.  It may or may not be duplicating owlcatz's thing, but OP can write decent English and puts some effort into his writing, and that's appreciated on my end. 

This merit system seems to be working out pretty well.  As I've said before, it's not perfect, but nothing is and I'm glad Theymos is doing something--even though it's not a perfect something.  Doing absolutely nothing just wasn't working out too well.  I'm trying to give out merit points to some lower-ranked members, but there just aren't enough quality posts.  This supports my theory that most new accounts are created solely to spam.

[TMAN]

Op you are merit farming, using 10 words when one will do. Give it up

Thoroughly explaining myself and trying to be precise with my words so that I get my point across is merit farming and using too many words? That's 2 high-ranking members offering nothing constructive to the idea at all. TMAN, I was honestly looking forward to reading your reply when I saw you had responded, since you're one of the few people doing something similar to what I'm asking.

I was thinking you would be open to expanding your "contest", collaborating with others and trying to scale what you are doing to a greater degree. Give what up?

I do not want merit. I do not care about ranking up or acquiring these points. I am happy with where I am at, but I thought it would be nice to use the new system in interesting ways. I encourage you to say exactly the same things I have in my post, without losing any meaning, significance or caveats with 10x less words; could be a fun exercise, because I think you're being pompous.

Your posts have been getting longer and longer since the introduction of merit, you used my handle 3 times in one post. I could be wrong but it looks like you are trying to "pad" to be more constructive

[EthanB]

Your posts have been getting longer and longer since the introduction of merit, you used my handle 3 times in one post. I could be wrong but it looks like you are trying to "pad" to be more constructive

I'd simply ask you to reconsider your position. My posts have been longer since I got back from my 6-month long vacation. I did a lot of thinking, wanted to re-adjust myself, did a LOT of learning and have been a different person altogether and on the forums. I used to use the forums far too erratically, posting one-liners not because I was paid to do so, but because I was bored and clueless.

I'm not trying to pad anything, I'm trying to type a post up as though I was having a conversation with you. My mistake for referring to you one too many times, but my posts have improved and I am genuinely trying to be thoughtfully helpful here.

My longest posts in the past couple weeks are a couple of days just before merit was released, so again, I feel you need to reconsider.

[TMAN]

Your posts have been getting longer and longer since the introduction of merit, you used my handle 3 times in one post. I could be wrong but it looks like you are trying to "pad" to be more constructive

I'd simply ask you to reconsider your position. My posts have been longer since I got back from my 6-month long vacation. I did a lot of thinking, wanted to re-adjust myself, did a LOT of learning and have been a different person altogether and on the forums. I used to use the forums far too erratically, posting one-liners not because I was paid to do so, but because I was bored and clueless.

I'm not trying to pad anything, I'm trying to type a post up as though I was having a conversation with you. My mistake for referring to you one too many times, but my posts have improved and I am genuinely trying to be thoughtfully helpful here.

My longest posts in the past couple weeks are a couple of days just before merit was released, so again, I feel you need to reconsider.

Ok bud, I'll take it as a foul by me. You are a native English speaker and definitely deserve the benefit of doubt..

Edit- re reading your posts I was wrong. I need to be reading less posts of the spammers to hand out merit correctly to those who deserve it

[FFrankie]

Your posts have been getting longer and longer since the introduction of merit, you used my handle 3 times in one post. I could be wrong but it looks like you are trying to "pad" to be more constructive

I'd simply ask you to reconsider your position. My posts have been longer since I got back from my 6-month long vacation. I did a lot of thinking, wanted to re-adjust myself, did a LOT of learning and have been a different person altogether and on the forums. I used to use the forums far too erratically, posting one-liners not because I was paid to do so, but because I was bored and clueless.

I'm not trying to pad anything, I'm trying to type a post up as though I was having a conversation with you. My mistake for referring to you one too many times, but my posts have improved and I am genuinely trying to be thoughtfully helpful here.

My longest posts in the past couple weeks are a couple of days just before merit was released, so again, I feel you need to reconsider.

Ok bud, I'll take it as a foul by me. You are a native English speaker and definitely deserve the benefit of doubt..

Edit- re reading your posts I was wrong. I need to be reading less posts of the spammers to hand out merit correctly to those who deserve it

I cant do with all of this long padded posts. I just tried to read his posts, and it could be said in a sentence or two.

Just because you use a lot of descriptive words for no reason

[TMAN]

Your posts have been getting longer and longer since the introduction of merit, you used my handle 3 times in one post. I could be wrong but it looks like you are trying to "pad" to be more constructive

I'd simply ask you to reconsider your position. My posts have been longer since I got back from my 6-month long vacation. I did a lot of thinking, wanted to re-adjust myself, did a LOT of learning and have been a different person altogether and on the forums. I used to use the forums far too erratically, posting one-liners not because I was paid to do so, but because I was bored and clueless.

I'm not trying to pad anything, I'm trying to type a post up as though I was having a conversation with you. My mistake for referring to you one too many times, but my posts have improved and I am genuinely trying to be thoughtfully helpful here.

My longest posts in the past couple weeks are a couple of days just before merit was released, so again, I feel you need to reconsider.

Ok bud, I'll take it as a foul by me. You are a native English speaker and definitely deserve the benefit of doubt..

Edit- re reading your posts I was wrong. I need to be reading less posts of the spammers to hand out merit correctly to those who deserve it

I cant do with all of this long padded posts. I just tried to read his posts, and it could be said in a sentence or two.

Just because you use a lot of descriptive words for no reason

Just because spammers do it doesn't mean we should throw wordsmiths in the same pile. I was wrong op is a native speaker with a vast vocabulary that likes to use it.

[nullius]

There is already a place which offers merit bounties for quality posts.  It is called the “Bitcoin Forum”, and its URL is https://bitcointalk.org/.  Posts placed there will be considered for merit by merit sources, high-ranking users, and anybody else who has sMerit.  I invite users with quality posts to place their posts there.


As a low-ranked user who has proved efficient at earning merit the normal way, I find such a suggestion extremely discouraging.

Suppose that I spend some hours writing post, as I have on some of my best posts both before and after the introduction of the merit system.  I do it because I want to make the post—because I have something worthwhile to say.  I place the post in the forum appropriate for its subject matter.  Then, I find that joeuser123 received merit I didn’t because he entered his post into a “merit bounty” contest, and I didn’t.

I do not like this idea.


Consider the distorting effects of the system here proposed.  Far from improving merit distribution, it draws the limited supply of merit away from organic, natural distribution in the ordinary course of forum discussion, and pools it in a “contest” (OP’s word).

If you thought for even one moment that the proposed idea may be (ahem) meritorious, please reread that paragraph twice.


Understand that the whole of the merit system is a “bounty” program.  It cannot perform its function of improving the forum, unless the forum as a whole is treated as one huge “merit bounty” section.

I am very uncomfortable with the merit giveaway threads.  I myself have neither entered any of them, or even checked to see if I was eligible.  I know that some of the people running them are well-intended; and I don’t think there will be any long-term damage, if such threads be only a temporary phenomenon during the exciting and tumultuous initial phase of the new system.  But widening such threads into a permanent, formally organized institution would undermine the merit system.

There is and must be one, and only one proper way to earn merit:  By making high-quality, on-topic posts in the forum appropriate for their subject matter.

For the merit system will not achieve its intended purpose unless it operates naturally, organically, rewarding good posts in the ordinary course of forum discussions.  You see, you read, you are impressed by a post—you hit the “+Merit” link.  You write, you post (where you would have anyway), you do a good enough job to impress someone else—someone else hits the “+Merit” link.  Merit sources may need to develop more elaborate distribution strategies, given the importance of the task entrusted to them.  But for the rest of us, the use of this system is supposed to be dead simple.

I am seeing so many negative posts complaining about the system that is meant to really improve things around here.

...by precisely the people who deserve no merit, and will never earn any.  That’s a feature, not a bug.  Evidently, the system is working exactly as intended:

First, most people complaining about merit are constantly posting garbage, and should not rank-up.

(Emphasis is theymos’.)

[tekusa]

However I have a proposal to get the juices flowing and ease some of the fears about distribution. It does not seem to be the world's biggest secret who a few of the merit sources are (Lutpin, for example), and there are many other users with a ton of merit to go around. My proposal is a contest of sorts; we could have users enter their posts or their profiles and after a given amount of time (or every so often) there is/are winner(s) chosen to receive a merit reward. Meaning the greatest poster(s) every week or so would be given a Merit Bounty for their high-quality, significant or contributory posts; preferably from public Merit sources or a pool or merit generated from willing participants around the community.

There is no need of organizing that contest. Such a deserving member will get the merits anyway.

[romani245]

For the merit system will not achieve its intended purpose unless it operates naturally, organically, rewarding good posts in the ordinary course of forum discussions.

I agree. It'll be interesting to see if that's what actually happens. I've definitely seen some people using sMerit outside of the context of quality posting. There's a psychological component involved too. No matter how good a post is, you are unlikely to get merit unless a) the reader likes your post, which has nothing to do with quality, or b) the reader likes you (because you are a friend or an alt account), which has nothing to do with the post in question.

This is the nature of social media. We've basically added a "like" button to the forum, which comes with the baggage of human psychology.

Merit sources may need to develop more elaborate distribution strategies, given the importance of the task entrusted to them. 

Fully agreed, there.

[alwaysmyn]

I have suggested somewhat the same idea like this and I agree to every suggestion that have the same thought like this. It's gives more chances for those unpopular person that gives contribution with high quality post and to those newbies that can really contribute, they deserve merits.

[Lauda]

I gave OP a merit point because he obviously put some thought into his posts, which is more than can be said for 90% of users here. 

He's on the SMAS list at the time of writing, thus no merit from me.

I am very uncomfortable with the merit giveaway threads.  I myself have neither entered any of them, or even checked to see if I was eligible.  I know that some of the people running them are well-intended; and I don’t think there will be any long-term damage, if such threads be only a temporary phenomenon during the exciting and tumultuous initial phase of the new system.  But widening such threads into a permanent, formally organized institution would undermine the merit system.

There is and must be one, and only one proper way to earn merit:  By making high-quality, on-topic posts in the forum appropriate for their subject matter.

I concur. While it may take some time until this filter works as it should (i.e. some people may be posting good posts in sections that are filled with garbage, ergo they are hard to find right now), I don't prefer the giveaways. They create the wrong incentives. I was also thinking about *merit bounties* that are not just about posts (e.g. do X  to get Y). We must definitely prevent the system from going into that direction and tag all the participating parties if it comes to that.

Merit sources may need to develop more elaborate distribution strategies, given the importance of the task entrusted to them. 

Fully agreed, there.

Not yet. Read my italic mention above.

[fokinlipat]

I have suggested somewhat the same idea like this and I agree to every suggestion that have the same thought like this. It's gives more chances for those unpopular person that gives contribution with high quality post and to those newbies that can really contribute, they deserve merits.

Do you see the profile name before reading every reply made here? I focus on the content written in the post irrespective of whether it is made by a popular or "unpopular person".

[Jet Cash]

If good posts are not receiving merit points because they are obscured by spamming, then that is a failure of the moderation system, and not the merit system.  Providing merit food banks doesn't clean out the spamming, or make the good posts more visible.

[yareklamator]

Yes, often good posts just drown in a pile of spam. People do not even read normal new meaningful news or points of view. If the title does not contain the phrase "Should I buy or sell?" "How to make x100?" "Your top coins?" then this topic flies to 50 page.
I'm not against Merit. But tell me, please. How can I put Merit for good posts, if I have 1 merit? I can put 1 like. OK, I understand that there are those who produce Merit. I do not want to be. I do not have time for this and it's very responsible.
It turns out that to decide a good post or not, deserves to get a +1 award or not, only high-ranking people can. Perhaps you need to open such rights for bounty managers? They read hundreds of messages from different people. They can give Merit to post that make sense.
But they must have a sufficient number of Merit. Since 10-30 pieces will end in a couple of days.