BTC will never extend more

[mgio]

Here is why you are wrong:
1) Scams. The Internet is full of scams. Most of them existed before bitcoin and will continue to exist if bitcoin went away. Bitcoin puts more risk to the buyer while PayPal transfers the risk (of charge backs) to the seller. sellers love bitcoins while buyers love PayPal. One is not better than the other. They are just different. Right now bitcoin is used mainly for transactions with individuals and small companies. Imagine if amazon.com accepted bitcoin. Would you hesitate to buy merchandise from them with bitcoin? I'm guessing you wouldn't have an issue with because they are large, trusted company. Bitcoin is like cash and cash has existed for a long time without reversible transactions.

In the future there will be online wallets that insured by the companies holding them so that your coins are safe even it their site is hacked. There is nothing to prevent this from happening once banks get in on the bitcoin game. Only libertarians -- the kind that keeps gold bars in a safe and cash under their mattress will bother keeping their savings in a local wallet,

How would it be possible to insure that the wallet will remain safe? Assuming that Amazon uses bitcoins, and some random guy found the private key of the wallet, and send all the bitcoins to a mixing service. How would you retrieve the coins? How would you revert an irreversible transactions? How do you track an untrackable move?

There are two issues here. First, if your bank is hacked and they lose money, do you lose anything? No, you don't. The bank is FDIC insured. You can not lose the deposits in your checking or savings account. Bitcoins can be insured too (though not necessarily FDIC). It will be the banks responsibility to hold on to your coins, likely in offline cold storage. If they get stolen, it is their insurance that will have to cover the theft. What am I saying is that there are secure ways for the common man to store his bitcoins. Most people do not store large amounts of gold or cash or whatever in their homes for fear of theft. They use banks. The same will be true for bitcoin.

2) Bitcoin is inconvenient. Yes, bitcoin isn't convenient to use now but there is nothing that says it must always be this way. New software will be developed that will make bitcoin easier to use. New exchanges will be started that will make it easier to buy and sell bitcoins (I personally think that coinbase is pretty darn simple). And in the future no one will ever be downloading the whole blockchain. People will use online wallets, or they will use local wallets that don't require the whole blockchain. Bitcoin ATMs will be out there and there will be plenty of easy to use mobile bitcoin apps and wallets. If you can use online banking, you'll be able to use bitcoin. Bitcoin is still new there ans we have a ways to go but there is no reason we can't get there.

I think that it is not a big deal, with safety is the main problem. You can see in the newbie section people complaining about comprised online wallet every day, even with double authentification ON.

Online wallets will be come more secure, especially as they begin to be run by larger and more reputable companies. I wouldn't trust my savings account to some company on the internet I've never heard although people are forced to do just that with their bitcoin online wallets. This won't necessarily be true in the future, though.

3) Fees are too high. This is not true at all. Fees are very low right now. In fact, you can still send bitcoins for free and have your transaction accepted into the blockchain. Worst case scenario, you have to add 5 or 10 cents to the transaction.

Fees do not need to go up once the block reward goes away!! Why not? Well, the fees can stay low because by then we expect the NUMBER of transactions per block to greatly increase as bitcoin becomes more widespread. Fees can still be 5 cents per transaction. The difference is we will have 1000 times more transactions.

Furthermore, credit cards are NOT free. Credit card companies charge merchants 2-3% to process transactions. Who ends up paying that? Well, you do in the form of higher prices. Merchants would love to charge you less if you use cash (and many gas stations do) but in general the credit card industry imposes strict rules to prevent merchants from doing that if they want to be able to accept credit cards at all.

Exchanges currently are a pain to use and can be expensive. But as Bitcoin gains acceptance and there are more exchanges, increased competition will bring lower fees and easier to use exchanges. In the future, exchanging fiat for bitcoin will be done for such a small fee it will be essentially free.

Current fees: 0,005 btc = 67,25 USD cents.
If you are buying a car it's fine. But if you are buying a 1 USD item, or moving money from wallet to wallet, it can increase quite a lot: almost 7 USD for 10 transactions, that you can do within 12 hours.

The numbers of transactions can go up, or down, and the fees as well. In the future, it might even not be possible to send btc without the fees.

Why would I care if the seller pays fees to VISA? If I am a customer and I don't pay anything, I don't pay more if I pay with a credit card, or by cash, I don't really care... You say that some merchants are selling cheaper if you pay by cash? I have never seen any of these.

Do you think that the blockchain will accept more transactions by blocks?
I have been waiting for 3 days for my last transaction to proceed (no fees). It took 45 minutes to get one confirmation with a 67 cents fee. I am not sure, but it seems that it is taking longer and longer to confirm. Before, transactions with fees were instant, and without took 12 hours max.

You should care because those credit card fees get passed on to you. Every merchant I've known who previously was cash only and then began accepting credit cards raised their prices to compensate. The majority of gas stations (at least in the US) have lower prices for those people who pay cash instead of credit. Regular merchants are not allowed to due to credit card rules. Their is an exception for gas stations.

The blockchain can accept far more transactions than are currently processed.
My no-fee transactions can sometimes take an hour or two. I've never had a transaction with a fee included take more than a single block. I haven't noticed transactions taking longer. The current fee is only 0.0005, not 0.005, and that is only 6 cents. You are off by an order of magnitude.

4) Confirmations are too slow. No, they are virtually instantaneous. There is no reason for most ,enchants to even wait for a block confirmation. Double spending is almost impossible to perform in practice and I've yet to hear of anyone successfully double spending in the real world ever. And the risk can be reduced if the merchant uses a payment processor that watches the network for double spend attempts. Already merchants such as Foodler will credit your bitcoin deposit immediately without waiting for confirmation. The only time a merchant might want to wait for confirmation would be for an expensive item like a car and those purchases usually take much longer today anyways. Finally, if you are using bitcoins on the Internet instead of POS, confirmation time doesn't really matter.

Merchants love bitcoin because they get their money right away too. Credit card companies take a long time to actually send money to the merchants (as you pointed out).

Yes maybe, but do you think that it will impossible in the future to double spend the bitcoins with new technique / with and without fees? And some tricks?

Double spending will only become harder as difficulty goes up and the size of the bitcoin network inceases. It's near impossible already and is it definitely worth the risk for small merchants like grocery stores that prefer instant transactions.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Hello,

I have been thinking a lot about BTC, how nice and beautiful it can be, but I came to the conclusion that it reached its maximum spreading. Here is why...

+21000000

[phillipsjk]

And bad for customers.
So why would customers choose to use it?
For normal, everyday, mundane transactions, Bitcoin doesn't really offer the normal consumer anything they don't already have with a combination of cash, debit cards, credit cards and PayPal.

Consumers pay those services (excluding cash obviously) fees for the protections offered.

A savvy user who is shopping at a proper merchant with a good reputation can avoid those fees with Bitcoin, which has much lower fees, if any at all.

I've said it many times, but I would happily spend bitcoins at places like newegg.com. I protect myself by shopping only at reputable merchants.

You will not see lower fees for using Bitcoin at any Credit Card accepting merchant. The Merchant Agreement prohibits this. The means that even people paying cash pay credit card fees. This leads people to think that credit cards have no fees and even pay you money every month. That money is coming out of the merchant fees that they are not allowed to pass on to credit card users.

I am interested in Bitcoin mainly for online shopping. I refuse to use a credit card for online purchases due to the replay attack. And the fine-print is scary.

[adamstgBit]

Hello,

I have been thinking a lot about BTC, how nice and beautiful it can be, but I came to the conclusion that it reached its maximum spreading. Here is why...

+21000000

The 4 reasons he gives, 2 of which are false, and the other 2 are easily solved (even he says it can all be solved)

+21 million? really?

bitcoin may or may not "extend more" but it will have nothing to do with what is outlined here...

[adamstgBit]

And bad for customers.
So why would customers choose to use it?
For normal, everyday, mundane transactions, Bitcoin doesn't really offer the normal consumer anything they don't already have with a combination of cash, debit cards, credit cards and PayPal.

Consumers pay those services (excluding cash obviously) fees for the protections offered.

A savvy user who is shopping at a proper merchant with a good reputation can avoid those fees with Bitcoin, which has much lower fees, if any at all.

I've said it many times, but I would happily spend bitcoins at places like newegg.com. I protect myself by shopping only at reputable merchants.

You will not see lower fees for using Bitcoin at any Credit Card accepting merchant. The Merchant Agreement prohibits this. The means that even people paying cash pay credit card fees. This leads people to think that credit cards have no fees and even pay you money every month. That money is coming out of the merchant fees that they are not allowed to pass on to credit card users.

I am interested in Bitcoin mainly for online shopping. I refuse to use a credit card for online purchases due to the replay attack. And the fine-print is scary.

merchant have recently been allowed to add a fee for credit cards
merchant are also allowed to refuse your CC if you're buying less then 10$ of stuff with it.

[Come-from-Beyond]

The 4 reasons he gives, 2 of which are false, and the other 2 are easily solved (even he says it can all be solved)

+21 million? really?

bitcoin may or may not "extend more" but it will have nothing to do with what is outlined here...

+1 actually

High fees problem can't be solved, they are high by design.
Slow confirmations can't be solved as well. At least without trusting to 3rd party.

[Fallen666]

Hi

You are missing something really basic.

You are comparing bitcoin to fiat as equal, crypto-economy is young and a lot of money and workforce is being invested everyday in it's development.

How was fiat currencies going after few years of adoption?

We alone are about to launch some big projects, apart from our website, and we are not the only company, many are growing.

If people who are used to business are investing in bitcoin is because there is potential.

Thanks for opening this thread, it is constructive to discuss this matter.

[davidgdg]

For normal, everyday, mundane transactions, Bitcoin doesn't really offer the normal consumer anything they don't already have with a combination of cash, debit cards, credit cards and PayPal.

Really? Can you send money to Iran with credit card?

Did you actually read my post?
Do you really think that sending money to Iran counts as an everyday mundane transaction for a normal consumer?

Buying groceries.
Buying gas or a train ticket.
Paying rent.
Going out for a meal.
Those are normal transactions.

Here are some situations where using bitcoin might be preferable:
1. The merchant won't sell goods under a certain value by credit card.
2. The merchant will add the credit card/debit card fees to the transaction - e.g. low budget airlines - so the consumer pays the fees directly.
3. Buying goods in parts of the world where credit card/debit card fraud is very common.
4. Buying goods from merchants who don't have the ability to take credit or debit cards (street stalls etc)
 

[murraypaul]

Here are some situations where using bitcoin might be preferable:
1. The merchant won't sell goods under a certain value by credit card.
2. The merchant will add the credit card/debit card fees to the transaction - e.g. low budget airlines - so the consumer pays the fees directly.
3. Buying goods in parts of the world where credit card/debit card fraud is very common.
4. Buying goods from merchants who don't have the ability to take credit or debit cards (street stalls etc)

In most of those cases, Bitcoin might be preferable to credit card, but not to cash, which will always be the simplest and cheapest option for low value face to face transactions.
For 2, are there any that add fees to debit card transactions? Ryanair, known for being cheapskates, don't, only to credit card transactions.
And how many street stalls who can't take debit cards are instead going to have bitcoin processing set up?
(And for 3, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that parts of the world where credit card fraud is common are also parts of the world where fraudulent merchants are common, and you would value the extra protection credit cards offer.)
Again, I've never said there are no uses for Bitcoin, I just think that people who see it taking over the world and being the sole, or even majority, form of transaction, are fooling themselves.
For the majority of boring, mundane, everyday, transactions, especially face-to-face ones, Bitcoin is a solution in search of a problem.
That isn't to say that there are not problems for which it is a solution, but there seem to be far too many evangelists here who see it as the One True Solution to all ills.

[marcovaldo]

The 4 reasons he gives, 2 of which are false, and the other 2 are easily solved (even he says it can all be solved)

+21 million? really?

bitcoin may or may not "extend more" but it will have nothing to do with what is outlined here...

I will update my post and add 2 other reasons.

[adamstgBit]

The 4 reasons he gives, 2 of which are false, and the other 2 are easily solved (even he says it can all be solved)

+21 million? really?

bitcoin may or may not "extend more" but it will have nothing to do with what is outlined here...

They are all linked to an other reason:
- people won't trust bitcoins.

If something is not convenient and safe to use, you will not trust it.
If you don't trust it, you won't use it.

I use it!

you use it too...

why are you saying hypocritical things

[marcovaldo]

I use it!

you use it too...

why are you saying hypocritical things

I am speaking about "common people". I spoke with a few people about bitcoins and they laughed at me.
Normal people will not trust bitcoins because it is shady, difficult to understand, offers no protection to buyers whatsoever, and not backed by anything at all. They see it as a Ponzi / scam, and will stay away from it.


I also add the price problem.


And, I repeat myself but:
I don't think that bitcoins will disappear, or that new shops won't accept bitcoins. But it will never go to the next step.
It does not mean that the number of transactions won't increase, or the value will not reach 1k usd/btc.

[adamstgBit]

I use it!

you use it too...

why are you saying hypocritical things

I am speaking about "common people". I spoke with a few people about bitcoins and they laughed at me.
Normal people will not trust bitcoins because it is shady, difficult to understand, offers no protection to buyers whatsoever, and not backed by anything at all. They see it as a Ponzi / scam, and will stay away from it.


I also add the price problem.


And, I repeat myself but:
I don't think that bitcoins will disappear, or that new shops won't accept bitcoins. But it will never go to the next step.
It does not mean that the number of transactions won't increase, or the value will not reach 1k usd/btc.

what makes you and I so special?

[marcovaldo]

what makes you and I so special?

We are registered on https://bitcointalk.org , learnt and read about bitcoins.
146 068 members are registered here. Maybe 5 000 - 50 000 have more than 10 posts and are active.

I am talking about the other 7 billion people.
Ones that matter, because their number make their decisions right, whatever they think.

[mgio]

Here are some situations where using bitcoin might be preferable:
1. The merchant won't sell goods under a certain value by credit card.
2. The merchant will add the credit card/debit card fees to the transaction - e.g. low budget airlines - so the consumer pays the fees directly.
3. Buying goods in parts of the world where credit card/debit card fraud is very common.
4. Buying goods from merchants who don't have the ability to take credit or debit cards (street stalls etc)

In most of those cases, Bitcoin might be preferable to credit card, but not to cash, which will always be the simplest and cheapest option for low value face to face transactions.
For 2, are there any that add fees to debit card transactions? Ryanair, known for being cheapskates, don't, only to credit card transactions.
And how many street stalls who can't take debit cards are instead going to have bitcoin processing set up?
(And for 3, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that parts of the world where credit card fraud is common are also parts of the world where fraudulent merchants are common, and you would value the extra protection credit cards offer.)
Again, I've never said there are no uses for Bitcoin, I just think that people who see it taking over the world and being the sole, or even majority, form of transaction, are fooling themselves.
For the majority of boring, mundane, everyday, transactions, especially face-to-face ones, Bitcoin is a solution in search of a problem.
That isn't to say that there are not problems for which it is a solution, but there seem to be far too many evangelists here who see it as the One True Solution to all ills.

Cash is not simpler. In order for me to use cash I have to go to an ATM. I don't like to carry around a lot of cash due to the risk of me losing it or it getting stolen. Therefore I find myself at the ATM at least a couple times a week. In general, it is easier to use a credit or debit card for most transactions. I only use cash at bars and places that don't take credit cards and for very small transactions.

To spend bitcoins I only need my phone. I always have my phone and using blockchains wallet the transaction is faster than using my credit card or debit card. There are a couple of restaurants near me that accept bitcoins and I try to eat their as much as possible.

Street stalls are taking credit cards now if they buy something like this for their phones: https://squareup.com/
It's still much cheaper and easier to take bitcoins, though. Still cash will always be preferred for transactions like those. Maybe bitcoins will never dominate the street vendor market, lol. Oh well, no big loss. It is still better for the other 99% of transactions out there.

[marcus_of_augustus]

OP has serious problem with perspectives ... between "bitcoin will never extend more" ... "bitcoin replaces fiat" is a gulf of usage wider than the Pacific ocean. You seem to have little to zero concept of  the sheer magnitude of fiat balances that are sloshing around the globe in databases looking for yield since central banks money began printing for the last 30 years. Think in the order of tens of trillions ... current bitcoin issued valued represents in range of ~ 0.01% of total fiat issued, then think of gold, silver, property and other liquid assets that monetised far beyond their yield by the fiat money bubbles.

If bitcoin replaces even a small fraction of fiat used in commerce it will be a success (and probably valued in the thousands of US$ at that point).



http://www.runtogold.com/2013/07/bitcoinlandia-where-mythical-investment-grand-slams-are-reality/

[Gorgoy]

I disagree. I've heard similar arguments for two years now. In those two years, Bitcoin has continued to grow. I expect it to continue, especially as savvy entrepreneurs create new ways to bring Bitcoin to the average person (and the average person will make the savvy entrepreneurs extremely rich in the process). People pay for convenience and protection, and they will continue to do so.

+ I also believe that BTC will continue to grow and develop. There is a huge amount of innovation taking place right now, with BTC and across all the crypto-currencies. We are at the beginning of something very big,it has not gone mainstream by any means. Granted, it is not able to go mainstream at this time since security has to be increased and ease of use has to be implemented on a wider scale. Those things will come with time and the market for BTC products will develop, the future is very exciting.

[MWNinja]

In July we had our first formal meetup event in Phoenix, 6 people attended.
The next meeting had 10 people. Then 18 people at the next, and now 28 at the meetup last Wednesday. 

It's just really beginning to spread.  And its not like how paypal (x.com remember?) spread, once you catch "bitcoin" you
become an activist.  Bitcoin is not just a currency, a speculation vehicle, or store of value;  It's a disruptive movement that cannot be stopped.

 

[johnyj]

Although bitcoin and fiat money can serve the same purpose (payment function), but they are fundamentally different. One is honest money (need work to produce), one is fake money (produced without any cost). Legally counterfeiting money is still counterfeiting, no matter how many beautiful economy theories were applied to disguise it

[davidgdg]

Here are some situations where using bitcoin might be preferable:
1. The merchant won't sell goods under a certain value by credit card.
2. The merchant will add the credit card/debit card fees to the transaction - e.g. low budget airlines - so the consumer pays the fees directly.
3. Buying goods in parts of the world where credit card/debit card fraud is very common.
4. Buying goods from merchants who don't have the ability to take credit or debit cards (street stalls etc)

In most of those cases, Bitcoin might be preferable to credit card, but not to cash, which will always be the simplest and cheapest option for low value face to face transactions.
For 2, are there any that add fees to debit card transactions? Ryanair, known for being cheapskates, don't, only to credit card transactions.
And how many street stalls who can't take debit cards are instead going to have bitcoin processing set up?
(And for 3, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that parts of the world where credit card fraud is common are also parts of the world where fraudulent merchants are common, and you would value the extra protection credit cards offer.)
Again, I've never said there are no uses for Bitcoin, I just think that people who see it taking over the world and being the sole, or even majority, form of transaction, are fooling themselves.
For the majority of boring, mundane, everyday, transactions, especially face-to-face ones, Bitcoin is a solution in search of a problem.
That isn't to say that there are not problems for which it is a solution, but there seem to be far too many evangelists here who see it as the One True Solution to all ills.

Actually another very common situation which ordinary people encounter is spending on holiday. Buying foreign currency is expensive and tends to leave you with a heap of unused coins and notes. And using even debit cards abroad incurs exchange fees. It would be genuinely useful to be able to go abroad and not even have to think about any of that, but instead just pay by phone in bitcoin.