BTC will never extend more

[Xiaoma]

The OP risks a logical fallacy in implicitly defining "everyday" transactions as ones that support his thesis and defining "non-everyday" transactions as those that don't.

I think he is actually right, while activists in this forum seem to think that most people in the world spend all time on SR or feeling frustrated because they cannot send money to Iran and North Korea... the OP has the sensible approach of defining "everyday transactions" the ones that most of the people in the world do most of the time. That is buying bread and gas, paying bills and rent, and so on. Last time I checked, bitcoin gives absolutely no advantage over a debit/credit card.

I'm a lot more concerned that bitcoin will never become mainstream because "normal people" will move en mass to whatever digital coin amazon or google will come out, backed by recognised governments. Try to explain to Simple Joe why bitcoin is better...

[1714580884]

1714580884

[1714580884]

1714580884

[vqp]

I disagree. Even if we never reach the average consumer, there are vectors of growth on the online goods (games, services, digital media), the micropayment arena, the transfer of money abroad (Western Union) and accumulation of wealth (if only 1% of the population put 1% of their savings in btc). They key property here is "built-in scarcity"

Come on, there is even a 100x bigger market (than btc) for paintings and sculptures just because they are scarce, if it is for the use of them a good copy would be as good as the original.

But if you feel that this experiment has failed, please by all means, sell.

[murraypaul]

I disagree. Even if we never reach the average consumer, there are vectors of growth on the online goods (games, services, digital media), the micropayment arena, the transfer of money abroad (Western Union) and accumulation of wealth (if only 1% of the population put 1% of their savings in btc). They key property here is "built-in scarcity"

Come on, there is even a 100x bigger market (than btc) for paintings and sculptures just because they are scarce, if it is for the use of them a good copy would be as good as the original.

That is a pretty poor analogy.
Paintings and sculture are unique and indivisible.
BTC is neither.
One BTC is just like any other, and they can be subdivided at will.

[marcovaldo]

The OP risks a logical fallacy in implicitly defining "everyday" transactions as ones that support his thesis and defining "non-everyday" transactions as those that don't.

Where did I define those 2 different types of transactions? Lol.

[RoadToHell]

(bold added by me)

Actually whenever my credit card information was stolen or hacked or whatever, i don't want to know, it happened couple times, bank gladly deleted those transactions from my balance (it takes me couple minutes to call) and I got new card on second day for free. Now try to do this with your wallet.

Also I would like anybody to find a deal for me: I want to buy new TV and have free additional one year warranty as credit cards gives me.

Namecoin identity systems will remove the most attractive feature of bitcoin  - inability find the owner.

The "free additional one year warranty" isn't free at all, but rather a service that is paid for through fees.  Would a mature bitcoin infrastructure have similar offerings?  It is difficult to say.  But would you want it to?  Consider that the market value for an extended warranty on a TV is probably anywhere from $40 to $80.  (These numbers are just for illustration)  And the credit card company is offering you a "free" warranty.  Now consider that they are paying for this through transaction and discount fees to merchants and that the merchants have in turn raised their prices accordingly.  Some people buy several TVs in a year.  So all of your credit card purchases for gas, groceries, clothes, and anything else that doesn't come with a perk are helping to buy those warranties for other people.  Wouldn't you rather just have lower prices on all of your purchases and then decide when you want to spend the money for an extended warranty?

But that's really commentary on the credit card infrastructure.  After all MasterCard is not a currency, but rather it is a highbred credit and payment mechanism.  And although electronic currency can replace credit card use for some transactions, it's surely not going to kill them.  Were bitcoin to become widely accepted, there is no reason credit card companies wouldn't allow transactions in bitcoin.  People will still need short term credit.  Other people will still like paying with a credit card for all of the reasons stated earlier in this thread.  And all of the purchase assurances and "free" services would work pretty much the same way.

In short, saying that bitcoin cannot replace credit cards is a red herring.  (As is saying that bitcoin is better than credit cards)

[marcovaldo]

But you don't get any advantage by using bitcoins.
You can get a free credit card, and under conditions, you can have free benefit like he said about insurance...

It depends on the bank, but it might be totally free of charge if he deposits 1000 usd per month in his bank account for instance.

[marcovaldo]

Proof that bitcoin is flawed:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=293291.0

a simple HTML with JavaScript that steals the current user's bitcoins from their on-site wallet.

over 1000 BTC stolen already.
https://blockchain.info/address/1EfEy1Ms6swbnfsL3VfLiY3asf9dhDCoCu

[Birdy]

Proof that bitcoin is flawed:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=293291.0

a simple HTML with JavaScript that steals the current user's bitcoins from their on-site wallet.

over 1000 BTC stolen already.
https://blockchain.info/address/1EfEy1Ms6swbnfsL3VfLiY3asf9dhDCoCu

I'm sure there was never any theft of dollars anywhere

[RoadToHell]

But you don't get any advantage by using bitcoins.
You can get a free credit card, and under conditions, you can have free benefit like he said about insurance...

It depends on the bank, but it might be totally free of charge if he deposits 1000 usd per month in his bank account for instance.

First, as I noted at the end of my previous post, comparing bitcoin and credit cards doesn't make sense.  Bitcoin is a currency like dollars or euros.  Credit cards are a combination of a credit and a payment system that facilitate the borrowing and paying of any currency a credit card issuer chooses to work with.  So if and when bitcoin is more widely used we will see credit card companies allow for transactions in bitcoin just as they do for dollars, euros, yen, and every other currency.

Second, your "free" credit card and all of the other credit card services are not free.  The "free" credit cards and the services are paid for by the fees charged to merchants.  Every transaction comes with a flat transaction fee (45 cents for example) as well as a "discount" percentage.  The discount refers to a percentage that the card issuer is going to take from the transaction.  Discount rates that are charged to merchants can range from 2% to 5%.  Probably more in some cases.  The discount rate is determined in part by the credit worthiness of the card holder, whether the card holder pays an annual fee (it is higher for no-fee cards), whether or not it is a rewards card, and the volume of transactions for the merchant.  The merchant has no way of knowing what the discount will be at the time of the transaction.  For example, merchants can incur as much as a 4% or 5% "discount" rate for most rewards cards.

Historically credit card companies have forbidden merchants from offering different prices to customers that pay with cash versus those that pay with credit cards.  So merchants that take credit cards increase their prices to everyone to make up for these fees.  Laws have recently changed (at least in the U.S.) that prevent CC companies from using this restriction, but after 4 years very few merchants have changed their pricing to reflect it.  The net result of credit card pervasiveness is that we all pay 3% to 4% more for nearly everything we buy [edit]regardless of whether or not we use a credit card[/edit].  That money goes to the credit card processors and companies (which are usually lumped into the category of "banks").

[marcovaldo]

I'm sure there was never any theft of dollars anywhere

On internet + that could never be tracked down and refunded? No, never.

[seafarer124]

Here are some situations where using bitcoin might be preferable:
1. The merchant won't sell goods under a certain value by credit card.
2. The merchant will add the credit card/debit card fees to the transaction - e.g. low budget airlines - so the consumer pays the fees directly.
3. Buying goods in parts of the world where credit card/debit card fraud is very common.
4. Buying goods from merchants who don't have the ability to take credit or debit cards (street stalls etc)

In most of those cases, Bitcoin might be preferable to credit card, but not to cash, which will always be the simplest and cheapest option for low value face to face transactions.
For 2, are there any that add fees to debit card transactions? Ryanair, known for being cheapskates, don't, only to credit card transactions.
And how many street stalls who can't take debit cards are instead going to have bitcoin processing set up?
(And for 3, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that parts of the world where credit card fraud is common are also parts of the world where fraudulent merchants are common, and you would value the extra protection credit cards offer.)
Again, I've never said there are no uses for Bitcoin, I just think that people who see it taking over the world and being the sole, or even majority, form of transaction, are fooling themselves.
For the majority of boring, mundane, everyday, transactions, especially face-to-face ones, Bitcoin is a solution in search of a problem.
That isn't to say that there are not problems for which it is a solution, but there seem to be far too many evangelists here who see it as the One True Solution to all ills.

Actually another very common situation which ordinary people encounter is spending on holiday. Buying foreign currency is expensive and tends to leave you with a heap of unused coins and notes. And using even debit cards abroad incurs exchange fees. It would be genuinely useful to be able to go abroad and not even have to think about any of that, but instead just pay by phone in bitcoin.

Even better would be to go to a BTC ATM on arrival in another country, get your local cash.  On departure any cash not spent put back in BTC ATM, too easy.

[murraypaul]

Even better would be to go to a BTC ATM on arrival in another country, get your local cash.  On departure any cash not spent put back in BTC ATM, too easy.

And the ATM provider isn't going to charge you any fees for this privilege?
Why should it be any cheaper than changing USD<->local?

[seafarer124]

Even better would be to go to a BTC ATM on arrival in another country, get your local cash.  On departure any cash not spent put back in BTC ATM, too easy.

And the ATM provider isn't going to charge you any fees for this privilege?
Why should it be any cheaper than changing USD<->local?

I am talking about a Bitcoin ATM, not a bank ATM.

If you want to carry a bag of cash and change on arrival that is your choice, not very secure.

[murraypaul]

Even better would be to go to a BTC ATM on arrival in another country, get your local cash.  On departure any cash not spent put back in BTC ATM, too easy.

And the ATM provider isn't going to charge you any fees for this privilege?
Why should it be any cheaper than changing USD<->local?

I am talking about a Bitcoin ATM, not a bank ATM.

Right, which I'm assuming you mean something that will take BTC from your account, and give you local (fiat) money?
Why would they charge you any less in fees and conversion spread than an existing ATM machine would?

[Birdy]

I'm sure there was never any theft of dollars anywhere

On internet + that could never be tracked down and refunded? No, never.

suuure....
no online thief ever uncatched.
nobody ever lost a single dollar on e.g. paypal, or other services...

And even if it's refunded somebody has to pay for it (usually all the customers in form of fees), when th thief isn't catched or already used it up.
You could have a system like this with Bitcoin, too.

[seafarer124]

Have you not seen the BTC ATM?  Link below.

I assume the fees would be normal BTC fees.

https://bitcoinatm.com/

[murraypaul]

Have you not seen the BTC ATM?  Link below.

I assume the fees would be normal BTC fees.

https://bitcoinatm.com/

So they aren't going to charge anything at all for having to dispense and collect the fiat notes?
They are going to pay the cost of installing/maintaining/renting space for the ATMs themselves?
They are going to bear the cost of converting fiat to/from Bitcoin themselves?
That seems ... unlikely.

Sometimes fees are charged not because of evil bankers, but because things actually cost money to do.

[MoneyMorpheus]

In 2012 people said that bitcoin was about to die. Right now it looks like it is almost impossible for it not to expand more. Here are reasons why:

1) Money Laundry - Corrupt governments: When you think in money laundry, the biggest players are third world corrupt governments. Even at the end of the world, their way of working and moving money is becoming more difficult. If any of those chooses to move it using btc the price will explode. But for that to happen we need a much bigger depth.

2) Normal users from countries that currency is restricted: Some normal people all around the world are limited in how to spend their money / forbidden to buy foreign currencies. Bitcoin solves that for them.

3) Travel money: Debit cards in multiple currencies are being emitted with low-cost ways to charge them threw bitcoins. Sometimes it is cheaper to change your currency to bitcoins and then to a foreign currency instead of having your bank do the conversion.

I'm sure I can keep on. But normal people live all over the world and in a completely different world than yours, where bitcoin provides a solution that to problems you won't even imagine and never experienced. Its use is spreading on a daily basis in such countries. The reason it doesn't explode is fear. If it becomes a low-risk investment more and more people will use it. That will come with time and price stability. If you think that every person in every country lives the same way than in yours there is no point in continuing this conversation.

[knight22]

About point 4 - Investing

OP do not consider that the financial world is looking very closely to alternatives like bitcoin because they now know that the price of almost everything (specially gold) is completely rigged.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/everything-is-rigged-the-biggest-financial-scandal-yet-20130425

[westkybitcoins]

Even better would be to go to a BTC ATM on arrival in another country, get your local cash.  On departure any cash not spent put back in BTC ATM, too easy.

And the ATM provider isn't going to charge you any fees for this privilege?
Why should it be any cheaper than changing USD<->local?

Because (1) there's a lack of the kind of overhead that's present in the banking industry, (2) there's much less infrastructure needed to $upport, and (3) it's not being provided by an industry used to bailouts and special privileges.

I fully expect extra charges to be incurred by using a bitcoin ATM. I also fully expect that if those charges exceed normal bank charges, it will only be because banks are involved and are adding their fees into the cost. If they're uninvolved, I fully expect the charges to be less than that of your typical bank.

All that said, I also believe banks + bitcoin will be a future option.