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February 06, 2018, 09:05:48 PM
 #1

I am transplanting this from the development forum:


According to my calendar, 2017 has already passed.

Gee thanks, hadn't noticed.

Sorry, I think I overreacted here.  From your further posts, it seems your questions have been sincere.  I should explain.

There is a steady stream of posts, often from new accounts, which desperately try to find something, anything wrong with Lightning.  I sometimes see excellent posters waste hours and an ocean of virtual ink trying to keep up with frivolous arguments.  And while there’s nothing wrong with a new account, insofar as all start that way, that gives no post history for me to check and see if you be that type.

i'm reasonably new to crypto but a seasoned securities trader. it took me roughly two weeks to realize this. seems like there is a LOT of hype/marketing from sockpuppet accounts, fake articles, just a hype train often in the name of market manipulation. team evil with bcash is one that definitely comes to mind

has it always been like this or is it a fairly recent development with all the alt coins we now have, many with pumpNdump strats in place?

“Team Evil with Bcash”, indeed.  For a sense of déjà vu, read this interview from 19 August 2015“Adam Back Says the Bitcoin Fork Is a Coup”, Morgan Peck, IEEE Spectrum.

I invite seasoned Bitcoiners to relate their experiences.  The conflict with anti-Bitcoin agendas is certainly heating up now, more than ever.  But Bitcoin is stronger than ever before; and to those who experienced the history or otherwise know it, it all feels like something seen before.


This thread is self-moderated, because it seems sure to be a troll magnet.  I will not be heavy-handed.  Or maybe I will be.  Start a different thread if you dislike my judgment on that point.

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February 06, 2018, 09:09:34 PM
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Bitcoin is much better than bcash in every way. The fees are also small right now.



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February 06, 2018, 09:23:50 PM
 #3

If there's going to be controversy, I might as well get the ball rolling.   Roll Eyes

I remain wholly unconvinced that the Bitcoin Cash fork (and the original SegWit2x planned but unactivated fork) were hostile.  They still appear to me simply as different visions that were incompatible with the one the majority of Bitcoin users decided was best.  An innocuous difference of opinion, rather than a coup, but one that got out of hand and was taken to extremes on both sides.  And I'd agree that "Bitcoin is stronger than ever before", not because it vanquished a foe, but because each idea was able to take its own path and allow the market to decide.  I'm intrigued to see where both Lightning and 32mb blocks take their respective projects and how each will fare.  People here are generally too defensive of something that doesn't really need defending.  Bitcoin can take care of itself.  It doesn't need people to torpedo any ideas or projects that aren't compatible, it merely needs to allow them to leave and pursue those goals separately.  To the most resilient chain go the spoils.

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February 06, 2018, 09:40:15 PM
Merited by LoyceV (1), nullius (1)
 #4

I call bitcoin cash on twitter Btrash with other Bitcoiners. I wasn't doing it previously and have never got an interest in. Until I noticed a propaganda from Roger Ver against Bitcoin, so I started to watch what and how he is doing it.

Here is a perfect and short description

Quote
Bcash marketing strategy:
-confuse people into thinking they are the real bitcoin.

I found a really shady method he is using but have nothing to back up my words...yet...

So then I started to be anti Btrash there. I am glad to see there are still a lot of people with a "love" with Bitcoin like in the early days. I connected with a lot of people.

This Roger Ver is acting like a child and getting desperate with his btrash shilling
He should start maybe to think going back to work for Google

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February 06, 2018, 09:41:18 PM
 #5

Here is a link to the fantastic slide that is actually showing the true progression of BTC and its unique potential that will be fulfilled!

( Future of BTC by Ron Gross)

https://www.slideshare.net/ripper234/future-of-bitcoin/22

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February 06, 2018, 10:06:38 PM
Merited by LeGaulois (1), nullius (1)
 #6

Quote
Bcash marketing strategy:
-confuse people into thinking they are the real bitcoin.

It's easy to dismiss the "not a coup" assessments on this basis.



Both BCash and Segwit2x claimed to be "The Real Bitcoin". There was an attempt by both forks to get the ticker symbol (BTC) appropriated by their respective projects, including a point in late 2017 where Coinbase Inc. (which was heavily in favour of Segwit2x) were set to change the ticker symbol on their exchange. The marketing of Bitcoin Cash has continued to make the "real Bitcoin" claim since the demise of the Segwit2x fork.


There is no need to use such highly psychological tactics if the intention is to create an honest competitor, that kind of rhetoric is clearly and unambiguously dishonest. This is aggressive and manipulative behaviour, why would a technically superior product need to employ such machiavellian tactics? The answer is because these forks were self-interested attempts to de-rail Bitcoin's direction and stability, not that they were borne out of genuine technical disagreements.

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February 06, 2018, 10:46:38 PM
Merited by nullius (2), LeGaulois (1)
 #7

Here is a perfect and short description

Quote
Bcash marketing strategy:
-confuse people into thinking they are the real bitcoin.

I found a really shady method he is using but have nothing to back up my words...yet...
I noticed the same, both from Bitcoin Cash fans, as well as an article on Bitcoin.com claiming "Bitcoin Cash is Bitcoin". This causes many clueless Newbies to deposit their funds on the wrong chain, and lose it at an exchange.
They only use Bitcoin and this forum for their own agenda, just like most altcoins (take Vitalik Buterin for example: last active on June 30, 2016) and ICOs for that matter.


The conflict with anti-Bitcoin agendas is certainly heating up now, more than ever.
It's all about money: altcoins, ICOs and forks are almost exclusively created to make the creator rich.
The campaigns from governments, (central) banks, many more institutions and (rich) people against Bitcoin only make me think we're right believing in Bitcoin. They don't care about me losing my money, they only care about losing control over money.

Quote
This thread is self-moderated, because it seems sure to be a troll magnet.
When it comes to trolling, I like The Pirate Bay's stance on Bitcoin Cash:

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February 07, 2018, 02:45:04 AM
Merited by Carlton Banks (1)
 #8

@Carlton Banks

Their fans are brainwashed like in a cult. They are stubborns and don't have a lot of arguments to defend their own project. Other than saying Bitcoin cash is the real Bitcoin, Bitcoin cash is following the Satoshi white paper and Bitcoin isn't, or the lightning network is bad (for whatever the reasons they have...)
Other than that, it's quite impossible to debate with them. They have their own opinion and are not open considering something else.

Bitcoin is Bitcoin, and Bitcoin cash is Bitcoin cash an altcoin and it will always be. No matter if a day Bitcoin cash is better than Bitcoin, Bitcoin will stay Bitcoin, I won't change my opinion about this.
Otherwise, we could say Ubuntu is the real Debian or Lubuntu is the real Debian as well. And why not to say Opera browser is the real Chromium project.
Or using the Money as a comparison, it is legitime to say the EUR currency is the real US Dollar.

Using aggressive methods to promote their product isn't the good way to do it, and if they need to lie to people then they will fail soon or later. The percentage of people using Bitcoin cash is very low compared to Bitcoin, why? Because they are not interested using it. So instead to steal the Bitcoin notoriety they should rather learn from it and find their own way.

@LoyceV
I am adding this lovely screenshot to my troll collection folder for later Cheesy

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February 07, 2018, 03:44:31 AM
 #9

If there's going to be controversy, I might as well get the ball rolling.   Roll Eyes

I remain wholly unconvinced that the Bitcoin Cash fork (and the original SegWit2x planned but unactivated fork) were hostile.  They still appear to me simply as different visions that were incompatible with the one the majority of Bitcoin users decided was best.  An innocuous difference of opinion, rather than a coup, but one that got out of hand and was taken to extremes on both sides.  And I'd agree that "Bitcoin is stronger than ever before", not because it vanquished a foe, but because each idea was able to take its own path and allow the market to decide.  I'm intrigued to see where both Lightning and 32mb blocks take their respective projects and how each will fare.  People here are generally too defensive of something that doesn't really need defending.  Bitcoin can take care of itself.  It doesn't need people to torpedo any ideas or projects that aren't compatible, it merely needs to allow them to leave and pursue those goals separately.  To the most resilient chain go the spoils.

Okay so, I think Carlton really just blew my mind with a +1 post. And for a guy who just finished his undergrad and is working towards a PsyD eventually, this is fascinating, and he is exactly right. You don't implore those tactics unless you have a nefarious agenda. Even narcissistic/psychopathic type CEO's don't use these tactics (it's not the norm), and instead correlates HEAVILY with fraudulent activity. So yeah, I really do have to do some more reading on this because;

Quote
Bcash marketing strategy:
-confuse people into thinking they are the real bitcoin.

It's easy to dismiss the "not a coup" assessments on this basis.


Both BCash and Segwit2x claimed to be "The Real Bitcoin". There was an attempt by both forks to get the ticker symbol (BTC) appropriated by their respective projects, including a point in late 2017 where Coinbase Inc. (which was heavily in favour of Segwit2x) were set to change the ticker symbol on their exchange. The marketing of Bitcoin Cash has continued to make the "real Bitcoin" claim since the demise of the Segwit2x fork.


There is no need to use such highly psychological tactics if the intention is to create an honest competitor, that kind of rhetoric is clearly and unambiguously dishonest. This is aggressive and manipulative behaviour, why would a technically superior product need to employ such machiavellian tactics? The answer is because these forks were self-interested attempts to de-rail Bitcoin's direction and stability, not that they were borne out of genuine technical disagreements.

Seems just like any shady IPO, listed on the OTC exchange, whereas regulation is minimal and audits are almost non-existent and can easily be fudged. These guys hoped to capitalize on that concept, as do what seems some of these alt-coins are hoping to accomplish?... and because of the lack of regulation, it's harder for us to distinguish these malevolent acts until someones lost money and the threads start appearing, and by then, it's usually a little too late...

I don't know, it's quite interesting and fascinating reading what you guys have to say, I have so many questions that I'm working to formulate, but I love how nullius forked this comment from a thread on forks, so less technically inclined people like me can read-in and be a part of the discussion.

thanks guys!
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February 07, 2018, 04:28:11 PM
Merited by LeGaulois (1)
 #10

we could say Ubuntu is the real Debian or Lubuntu is the real Debian as well. And why not to say Opera browser is the real Chromium project.
Or using the Money as a comparison, it is legitime to say the EUR currency is the real US Dollar.

Bitcoin Cash die-hard: "Homo-sapiens is the original hominid species, they all forked from us!!! Angry"

Cheesy

Seems just like any shady IPO, listed on the OTC exchange, whereas regulation is minimal and audits are almost non-existent and can easily be fudged. These guys hoped to capitalize on that concept, as do what seems some of these alt-coins are hoping to accomplish?... and because of the lack of regulation, it's harder for us to distinguish these malevolent acts until someones lost money and the threads start appearing, and by then, it's usually a little too late...

Bitcoin & cryptocurrencies are a self-regulating meritocracy: there's no reason to prefer Bitcoin for ideological or group-think/"home team"/latest fashion reasons.

Using Bitcoin enables and strengthens your economic & monetary rights directly, without the need to resort to the classical government model of protecting rights (which is essentially no more than a benevolent protection racket). There's no need to pay tithes to government goons to protect your interests, the Bitcoin network (and it's underlying software design) protects your money instead. Governments and banks are not big fans of this model of rights (and neither are the so-called liberal media).

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February 07, 2018, 10:50:59 PM
 #11

Today is the day Roger Ver was supposed to participate in the Alex Jones show (oh well, the perfect audience to spread your conspiracy theories and lies if you ask me) After waiting patiently, it turned finally to be another lie from him.
This guy is out of mind...

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February 10, 2018, 12:34:16 AM
Merited by LeGaulois (1)
 #12

I’ve been drafting a longer reply, now much delayed.  I appreciate the insightful discussion—and especially that “Bcash. LOL”.  LoyceV, are you trying to induce me to donate to TPB?  They deserve a tip just for that.

Yet important though it is to properly inform people about the scamforks of the present, my point in OP is that this has all happened before—well, most of it.  The attacks on Bitcoin are now far better organized and more sophisticated.  Also, as I said in OP, Bitcoin itself is much stronger.  “Compare-and-contrast” with scenarios of the past can give the perspective most newbies lack when seeing these controversies for the first time.

E.g., apropos hereof in another active thread, we find Greg Maxwell discussing the anti-Segwit “anyone can spend” disinformation:

We didn't see these same sorts of malicious FUD with P2SH though it was exactly the same-- I guess because back then felons hadn't figured out how to monetize that sort of confusion.

Oh no, P2SH in Bitcoin and Btrash betrays Satoshi’s vision and lets miners seize “anyone-can-spend” funds with a 51% attack!  I think we should fork Bitcoin from—what was the last version without P2SH?  Off the top of my head, v0.5?  How do you propose that we should purify the blockchain of all these horrible P2SH transactions?  Most importantly, what is a spiffy name for this fork?  “Bitcoin Devolution” has a nice ring to it, but I’m open to suggestions.  The real Bitcoin only allows payment to addresses which start with a “1” (or payments to IP addresses, which Satoshi also envisioned and had as a feature in early versions).

Well, anyway, the felons have learned.  So have long-time Bitcoiners.  Hey, Legendaries, what do you remember about “XT”, “Unlimited”, “BIP 100”, and various other wannabe coups?  How much of what happens now is just “same old, same old” to you?  You’ve got that perspective the newbies lack; please share it!

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February 11, 2018, 05:54:32 PM
 #13

Namecoin was the first fork if I am not wrong. But the "troubles" started with Mike Hearn (and Gavin Andresen?) and XT. Considering all the forks, only Btrash is cancer. The problem is, unlike others, they spend a lot of energy to confuse people and to push Btrash

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February 11, 2018, 08:49:47 PM
 #14

Namecoin was the first fork if I am not wrong.

Namecoin isn’t a chainfork.  It’s a legitimate altcoin, with its own genesis block, address prefix (preventing the loss-of-funds accidents so common with Btrash!), etc.; it’s also one of the few alts with an interesting idea, rather than being only a cheap imitation of Bitcoin.  It can even be merge-mined with Bitcoin, such that shared hashrate can benefit both separate chains; indeed, Namecoin devs invented the concept of merged mining.  It is not harmful to Bitcoin, or even unfriendly toward Bitcoin.  Its goal isn’t even really to create a new currency, but rather, a new naming system which implements Aaron Swartz’s idea for squaring Zooko’s Triangle.

But the "troubles" started with Mike Hearn (and Gavin Andresen?) and XT. Considering all the forks, only Btrash is cancer. The problem is, unlike others, they spend a lot of energy to confuse people and to push Btrash

Actually, off the top of my head, it started with so-called “BIP 100” (not a real BIP number).  Some old-timer or Bitcoin historian will need to correct me if I’m wrong there.

Regardless, as I said, the felons have learned.  Early attempts only focused on overtaking the whole network all at once, directly from within.  As I recall, XT tried (and laughably failed) to Sybil the network with a bunch of XT nodes run on cloud-computing machines, compliments of Roger Ver.  I think eventually somebody realized the potential of using a separate forkchain for what trademark lawyers call “dilution” of a brand—thus, Btrash.  Not that the total instant coup attempts have stopped; vide 2X, which is dead, but was only the latest in a long line of attempts at that kind.

I think the worst damage earlier coup attempts did was to (0) manufacture the blocksize controversy as an ongoing (and effective) propaganda ploy, (1) delay Bitcoin’s evolution, especially the activation of Segwit.  Segwit should have been active on the network long before August 2017.  We all could have benefitted from that.  We are all at a real, direct loss from increased fees we paid, as well as opportunity cost.



Side note:  I see a persistent recurrence of forum threads over funds loss from sending Bitcoin to a Btrash address (or vice versa).  Also, I see threads discussing problems with trying to install both Bitcoin and “Bitcoin ABC” (i.e. Btrash) on the same machine; Btrash uses the same data directory as Bitcoin, and will happily overwrite Bitcoin files.  Etc., etc.  Btrash deliberately tries to cause as much confusion as it can, in as many damaging ways as it can.

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