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Author Topic: Bitcoin's immunity to government action  (Read 12370 times)
Sjalq
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January 21, 2011, 11:18:02 PM
 #1

I made this point in another thread but through it needed it's own thread.

Bitcoins will ultimately prevail against government action. Reason being that it is nearly impossible that ALL governments will attempt to make Bitcoin illegal. It is also unlikely that all governments that attempt to do this will be successful.

Considering that Bitcoin is (at least in my opinion) a far superior form of payment in most aspects to current currency product offerings, it is very likely that Bitcoin will succeed in many of the jurisdictions that allow it. In the process the price of a bitcoin would skyrocket, even if only 1% of a relatively small economy's money supply was in Bitcoin. This would further cement the success of Bitcoins.

Once Bitcoins are in use in a few jurisdictions, these jurisdictions can now effect low cost trade with one another and have given their citizens access to a relatively stable currency. Access to a stable currency will greatly benefit the economies Bitcoin is used in.

These factors combined will put pressure on other jurisdictions to accept Bitcoin as payment and eventually decriminalize it.

Owning gold was once illegal in the US and Russia, today, despite posing a greater risk to the funding mechanism of governments, gold ownership is legal again. Remember, taxes predate fiat currency. Fiat currency is a nice to have for a state, not a must have.

Cheesy mine mine mine mine mine mine mine Cheesy
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S3052
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January 22, 2011, 06:19:19 PM
 #2

That is an interesting viewpoint, and actually quite possible.

To start this, one would need to find one jurisdiction that would be the "low hanging fruit" - one that is most ready to accept bitcoins as national currency.

who could this be?

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January 22, 2011, 06:45:33 PM
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To start this, one would need to find one jurisdiction that would be the "low hanging fruit" - one that is most ready to accept bitcoins as national currency.

who could this be?

I don't know, but, if the US government ever decide to attack bitcoins as strong as sometimes people here imagine it might, like trying to forbid it completly and throwing TERRORIST!!!-like accusation towards bitcoin users, you bet that there are a few anti-american governments out there who would really consider embracing the technology. Wink

Pretty much like the Brazilian government offering protection to Julian Assange.... hehe, had wikileaks published dirty secrets of the Brazilian scum, things would be quite different. Cheesy

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ribuck
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January 22, 2011, 08:46:07 PM
 #4

one jurisdiction that would be ... most ready to accept bitcoins as national currency.

who could this be?
Zimbabwe perhaps, having recently abandoned the Zimbabwe Dollar?
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January 22, 2011, 08:54:01 PM
 #5

Zimbabwe perhaps, having recently abandoned the Zimbabwe Dollar?

"Bitcoin, the New Zimbabwe Dollar" would be TERRIBLE marketing.  How about a nice, respectable country that is just tired of using somebody else's currency?  If the value of the dollar keeps falling, there may be a lot of those in the next 20 years.

How often do you get the chance to work on a potentially world-changing project?
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January 22, 2011, 10:03:20 PM
 #6

Zimbabwe perhaps, having recently abandoned the Zimbabwe Dollar?

"Bitcoin, the New Zimbabwe Dollar" would be TERRIBLE marketing.  How about a nice, respectable country that is just tired of using somebody else's currency?  If the value of the dollar keeps falling, there may be a lot of those in the next 20 years.


Let's get going. Anyone from Zimbabwe here?
Anyone having some contacts?

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MoonShadow
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January 22, 2011, 10:10:06 PM
 #7

Zimbabwe perhaps, having recently abandoned the Zimbabwe Dollar?

"Bitcoin, the New Zimbabwe Dollar" would be TERRIBLE marketing.  How about a nice, respectable country that is just tired of using somebody else's currency?  If the value of the dollar keeps falling, there may be a lot of those in the next 20 years.


I contest that the US FRN is actually falling in value.  That would depend on how one looks at it, but every way that one can look at it is relative. 

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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January 22, 2011, 10:12:21 PM
 #8

Zimbabwe perhaps, having recently abandoned the Zimbabwe Dollar?

"Bitcoin, the New Zimbabwe Dollar" would be TERRIBLE marketing.  How about a nice, respectable country that is just tired of using somebody else's currency?  If the value of the dollar keeps falling, there may be a lot of those in the next 20 years.


I contest that the US FRN is actually falling in value.  That would depend on how one looks at it, but every way that one can look at it is relative. 

More seriously, I'd prefer Ireland  :-)

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MoonShadow
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January 22, 2011, 10:13:43 PM
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I don't know, but, if the US government ever decide to attack bitcoins as strong as sometimes people here imagine it might, like trying to forbid it completly and throwing TERRORIST!!!-like accusation towards bitcoin users, you bet that there are a few anti-american governments out there who would really consider embracing the technology. Wink

P

It might happen this way, but I would doubt it.  If the world could reject the US FRN as the international currency without great harm to their own economies, I suspect that they would already do so.  The result of so much cash returning to the US would result in massive inflation, but would also harm most other nations as well.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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January 23, 2011, 12:09:57 AM
 #10

Maybe sell wheelbarrows for bitcoins for carrying all that useless fiat to the shops to get a loaf of bread.


 Cheesy
Sultan
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January 23, 2011, 02:50:19 AM
 #11

Zimbabwe? Brazil?

Do these countries have readily available internet service providers for cheap? I know that in Indonesia broadband is a bit a luxory. Most people go to internet cafes for high-speed broadband. At home, they use dial-up if its absolutly nessecary.

I can't see how countries like that would ever adopt BitCoin, when the main blindingly obvious drawback is that internet is not so freely available!

Maybe we should find a lovely island and just settle there, create the first country with BitCoin as its currency!

Or just keep it as it is, BitCoin - the stateless currency.

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I then use the money to buy BitCoins. You can too!
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January 23, 2011, 04:22:59 AM
 #12

Zimbabwe? Brazil?

Do these countries have readily available internet service providers for cheap? I know that in Indonesia broadband is a bit a luxory. Most people go to internet cafes for high-speed broadband. At home, they use dial-up if its absolutly nessecary.

I can't see how countries like that would ever adopt BitCoin, when the main blindingly obvious drawback is that internet is not so freely available!

Maybe we should find a lovely island and just settle there, create the first country with BitCoin as its currency!

Or just keep it as it is, BitCoin - the stateless currency.

You only need the internet for a transaction, I'm sure a lot of stores in these areas have it or can get it for less than they pay in CC fees. For spending online dial-up is no problem, even if you don't want to use an online wallet, you don't need the blockchain in order to send a tx.

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January 23, 2011, 12:39:33 PM
 #13

Zimbabwe? Brazil?

Do these countries have readily available internet service providers for cheap?

Brazil has the 5th largest internet population. http://www.internetworldstats.com/top20.htm (well, it's the 5th largest world population anyway, if Pakistan haven't yet passed, so it's just average...)
It might not be cheap, but it's perfectly possible to run bitcoin.

Maybe we should find a lovely island and just settle there, create the first country with BitCoin as its currency!

I hope it happens: http://seasteading.org/
Smiley

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January 23, 2011, 02:22:10 PM
 #14

The government can just buy all available coins (because their money can be printed and there is a lag of price rise).

Just now I need to collect 1500 coins to pay for some work for me.
It is difficult to do because the supply is about 100 coins per day in RUB/BTC market.

If I wish to pay salary in bitcoins - it is impossible (and will be impossible) to collect that amount of bitcoins.
FreeMoney
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January 23, 2011, 02:33:45 PM
 #15

The government can just buy all available coins (because their money can be printed and there is a lag of price rise).

There is not a lag of price rise.  

Apples for sale
---------------
9 pieces silver
8 pieces silver
3 pieces silver
2 pieces silver

The rate you get in the market is 2 silver. The absolute very same instant you buy that apple the new price available in the market is 3 pieces of silver. There is no lag. It is important to remember that the market price is simply what offer is accepted it doesn't have to be updated by a score keeper.

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ribuck
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January 23, 2011, 02:36:46 PM
 #16

The government can just buy all available coins...

An infinite number of digital currencies can be created, and the government can't buy them all. I don't think the government will want to create a new business model:

1. Create a digital currency
2. Get some people to start using it
3. The government buys all the coins
4. Profit!
kiba
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January 23, 2011, 02:42:37 PM
 #17

Some people will NEVER sell their bitcoin to the gov...like me! Cheesy

FreeMoney
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January 23, 2011, 02:48:44 PM
 #18


If I wish to pay salary in bitcoins - it is impossible (and will be impossible) to collect that amount of bitcoins.


As someone buys up coins the price required to buy the next few rises. If someone buys a lot the price will be very high, and then you will not need to get many coins to pay a salary. If the gov has bought all but 5 coins maybe the salary will be .000001/week.

The main thing that might help you understand is that money-printers buy up things they want to support, not things they hate. They buy government bonds because government gives them a monopoly on money, they buy mortgage securities because their banker friends have bought too many, they buy titanium toilets to install in tanks because they have dinner and sex parties with people from Haliburton. They are not going to do us the favor of increasing the value of bitcoins and killing their golden goose the dollar even earlier.

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January 23, 2011, 05:07:28 PM
 #19

How about Iceland?
A nice small country absolutely fed up with the banksters actions, trying to be forced into this dreadful Euro.

Internet Usage Statistics:
301,600 Internet users as of June/10, 97.6% of the population, according to the ITU.

Gross Domestic Product:
GDP per capita is US$ 46,320 ('06) according to World Bank.


"
Trade minister: Iceland must choose between euro and currency controls

Posted on27 December 2010. Tags: currency, economy, EU, euro, Iceland, krona, Politics

The Icelandic nation faces a choice between the single European currency or ongoing currency exchange restrictions and a relapse to a much simpler means of trade with the outside world if it keeps the krona. This is the opinion of Arni Pall Arnason, Iceland’s Minister of Economics and Trade.

Shortly before Christmas, the Central Bank of Iceland handed the minister a report on the monetarism and currency issues outlook for Iceland. As the IMF is expected to leave the country next summer, that was one of the issues the report covered. The bank assesses the country’s options in its report and concludes that the only two realistic options are to join the EU, the EMU and the euro or to hold on to the krona. And in the short term, there is no real alternative to the krona.

Read more: http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2010/12/27/trade-minister-iceland-must-choose-between-euro-and-currency-controls/#ixzz1BsU6DxF8
"

An exchange accepting ISK currency is needed? Does not seem a very appealing currency to accept..
How does one start?
Find a Iceland company selling services that can be used abroad and the whole bitcoin community strives to use them.
All this extra revenue in BTC gets paid to the employees in BTC. We find one business that the first one uses and convince them to accept an additional revenue stream, allowing, with time the first one to pay them and so on.
I am pretty sure many up there are open and ready for an alternative. And payback all those useless debts with one huge ISK note and let the creditors swallow that one down.

Surely there must be books on this topic of introducing a new medium of exchange.
We need daily articles, SEO marketing, news articles in Icelandic media and commitment from the bitcoin community to assist-


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January 23, 2011, 07:30:16 PM
 #20

This is a great idea overall.

Also agree that this needs an elaborate strategy. A lot of the above is already going in the right direction.

Another way to establishing BTC would be to get Iceland people invest into BTC's and accumulate them, i.e. via i) getting an Iceland bank / fund investing into BTC's or get BTC listed on the exchange itself Grin

Seriously, if only about 100,000 (30% of the 320,000 population) Iceland people invest 100 $ into BTC, this would mean 10,000,000 $. With that, Iceland would already be the major BTC stakeholder (holding 80% of BTC economy, of course only if all other variables stay unchanged). This would also increase the wealth of Iceland people and the entire country massively since BTC/USD would rise at least 5 fold.

At the same time, businesses accepting BTC in Iceland would flourish.



For perspectve: A mini research on exchanges in Iceland revealed:

A wide variety of firms are currently listed on the exchange, including firms in retail, fishing, transportation, banks, insurance and numerous other areas. Because of the small size of the Icelandic economy and the low cost of public listing, many of the companies traded on the ICEX are relatively small and are relatively illiquid.

All domestic trading of Icelandic bonds, equities and mutual funds takes place on the ICEX. Bonds and equities are regularly traded, though the liquidity is small in comparison with other exchanges. No mutual funds are currently listed on the market.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland_Stock_Exchange
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:OMXI15.jpg&filetimestamp=20090506213925

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Always do your own due diligence & consult your financial advisor. Never invest unless you can afford to lose your entire investment.

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