Need a PayPal refund for your BFL purchase?

[scotjam]

Has anyone from the UK successfully received a refund outside of the 45 day limit (i.e. with no way to raise a dispute online)? If so, how?

I called them a couple of times and was unceremoniously shown the door. If I could demonstrate others in the same position had received refunds, I might have better luck.

Thanks

scotjam

[mamutin]

http://s17.postimg.org/eh2ma5chb/bestaetigung_No_Name.png

Now I got an answer from BFL. The answer message was send to the finance institute, the answer below was send to me:

Your miner is scheduled to be sent to the hosting facility when your order date comes up in the queue. However, there has been a dispute opened with PayPal, and it needs to be closed before your miner is sent to hosting. Please let us know when you have closed the dispute. Thank you.


Kind regards,
Alicia
BF Labs, Inc.

For Jody's Customer Service Blog, and more, please visit our new BFL Forums at https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/

[Groc]

This method did not work for me, but my CC company helped me       I was lucky, you need to contact your CC company within 4 month of the purchase date or else... (i'm not sure what happens). The CC company gave me my refund within a week, but now I just need to wait 6 weeks, and not sign for the package or they will take back the refund. I also told BFL to not bother sending it since its way past the 2 months delivery date, so my item is "on hold" 

[colinistheman]

add another to the list of refunds!  just got this today!  created the paypal refund request on Oct 4, 2013, and got the refund Oct 16, 2013.  will be sending a tip to OP.  to those who want a refund through paypal this is how i got mine.

1. enter a dispute online
2. after it gets rejected for the "out of 45 day" time period
3. log into your paypal acct and go to resolution center and write down your case (change the view to all cases)
4. click contact us at the bottom of page
5. click call us on the right side of the page (should give you a phone number (probably 888-221-1161) with a one-time code
6. call it and enter your code when it asks you
7. say case resolution
8. say no (to ebay purchase)
9. say existing
10. say yes and enter the dispute/claim ID.
11. when they give you the status of the claim say agent.
12. when the agent comes on the line tell him the deal with BFL (fraud, pre-orders, wont let you cancel pre-order, wont refund, cant give you a date when your item will ship, etc).  tell them to look at this company's history of complaints and refunds from paypal.  ask them to process a refund.  they issued me a new case ID for this.
13. wait the 10 days and when BFL doesnt respond to them (cause they wont) call paypal back and go through the same deal as above and get an agent on the line.
14. they will review and close the case and refund you.


*************************************************************************************************
We have completed our investigation for the following claim:
 
Transaction Details
------------------------------
Seller's Name: BF Labs Inc.
Seller's Email: office@butterflylabs.com Seller's Transaction ID: 3GGxxxxxxxxxxx933

Transaction Date: Mar 4, 2013
Transaction Amount: -$683.00 USD
Invoice ID: 100019393
Your Transaction ID: 3XAxxxxxxxxxxx32A
Case Number: PP-002-xxx-xxx-xx1

Buyer's Transaction ID: 3XAxxxxxxxxxxx32A
------------------------------
 
We have decided this case in your favor and you will receive a full refund in your PayPal account within the next 3-5 days.
*************************************************************************************************

I tried your steps exactly per how you have them listed out and no success for me. No matter what I said to back up my claim the woman refused to escalate my claim. She said even if she did re-open the claim, the system would detect it as a duplicate and close it out due to being over 45 days. I said I had a friend (you) who purchased his at the same time I did and he got his claim approved yesterday and she said she could not understand how this could be so without having the claim in front of her. She asked her senior and the senior gave the same answer. This is the 2nd customer service person who has told me they cannot do it. I bought my 2 BFL orders in April of 2013 with money in my PayPal balance. Did you use a bank account or credit card through PayPal as the payment processor? Or was it also directly from funds in your PayPal account?

No luck here

Help.

If you got approved I don't see why I can't.

[PuertoLibre]

What you need is a transaction ID from finlof.

Only then can you push them to do something they ordinarily wouldn't do. You just have to provide the excuse for them to do their job.

Contact him privately and get the guy to send you a transaction ID that shows the refund. Then if you get your's get...him (or you both can contribute) and provide transactions ID's. Then, we can build up a small list that people can reference against. Lets open up those flood gates of justified refunds.

[BTCscraper]

Below is the email I sent to Paypal that resulted in a Paypal-initiated refund.  The content is what lajz99 suggested, and I did not write anything about BFL or their personnel being shady, scammy, fraudulent or criminal, unlike the sample letter that someone published in another website.
-------------------------------------

Subject: Request for assistance for non-delivering merchant

Mr. Marcus,

Greetings!  I would like to bring to your attention a transaction that has been troubling me for the first time since I started using Paypal.

On May X, 2013, I placed an order with a merchant named BF Labs Inc., and paid using Paypal for a total of $X.00 (transaction ID # x ).  BF Labs manufactures bitcoin mining devices, and had just started shipping their long-awaited units that have been apparently ordered by many other customers.

On August X, I requested for a refund from BF Labs because of their erratic and un-estimateable shipping schedule -- their COO had been announcing different shipping targets throughout the period, pushing shipping completion dates later and later.  I had requested for a refund, which I thought would help in reducing their backlog, and because it was to my knowledge that they were processing refund requests in July.  But I got a response on August x that they no longer allowed refunds, and they cited FTC mail order merchandise rules in denying refund requests.  I did read up on that particular FTC rule, and it is my understanding that their failure to ship within 30 days allows me to cancel the order, but I am stuck right now because it is beyond Paypal's 45-day rule for buyer protection, and BF Labs is sticking to a no-refunds position and refuses to explain their understanding of the FTC rule further.

I hope that you can assist me with this concern, as it is quite unfair that a merchant can hold on to my funds when they cannot tell me definitively when they will ship my products more than 4 months after I ordered it.

For more details, I can be reached by email at this address, or I can call back a U.S. phone number if a message is left for me at x.

Thank you for your attention.

- X

----------------------------------------------
Below is Paypal's response.
----------------------------------------------

Dear X,

Thank you for reaching out to PayPal regarding your concerns with your Butterfly Lab transactions.  We take situations like this very seriously and are pleased to inform you we have been in direct communication with Butterfly Labs and your payment has been refunded.

If your original payment was funded with a credit card, the refund will be returned to your credit card.  If you funded the payment via your bank account or PayPal balance, the funds will be returned to your PayPal balance.

Thank you for being a valued customer!

Sincerely,
PayPal

[colinistheman]

What you need is a transaction ID from finlof.

Only then can you push them to do something they ordinarily wouldn't do. You just have to provide the excuse for them to do their job.

Contact him privately and get the guy to send you a transaction ID that shows the refund. Then if you get your's get...him (or you both can contribute) and provide transactions ID's. Then, we can build up a small list that people can reference against. Lets open up those flood gates of justified refunds.

That is a good idea and exactly what I tried. Finlof gave my his transaction number in a private message. I called back PayPal and unfortunately the customer service rep said he couldn't look into his account without you him the line.

He also asked how did you pay for your order? Was it with your PayPal balance (money actually sitting in your paypal account) or was it with PayPal using a direct bank transfer, or with PayPal using a credit card? He said this may be why yours was approved and mine wasn't.

This is very important: Which of the above 3 methods did you use to pay?

PayPal transactions made with money actually sitting in your PayPal balance will not be refunded after 45 days no matter what, per him.

So in a way, I got screwed over because I had the money in the first place. If i had paid with a credit card or had to wire money from my bank account through PayPal, I would have been able to reverse it.

[colinistheman]

BTCscraper, did you pay BFL with money in your PayPal balance at the time, or did you have to transfer money from your bank account using PayPal, or did you use a credit card through PayPal? It seems this is the deciding factor whether they will esclate and refund the claim or not.

[BTCscraper]

BTCscraper, did you pay BFL with money in your PayPal balance at the time, or did you have to transfer money from your bank account using PayPal, or did you use a credit card through PayPal? It seems this is the deciding factor whether they will esclate and refund the claim or not.

Only 6.77% of my payment was PP balance, the rest was CC.  I got refunded everything.

In contrast to kill-switch's PP situation, I need PP because I am outside the US and US merchants usually do not accept non-US cards.  PP works when the merchant does not block non-US PP accounts, like BFL gladly did until they stopped accepting PP altogether.

[colinistheman]

BTCscraper, did you pay BFL with money in your PayPal balance at the time, or did you have to transfer money from your bank account using PayPal, or did you use a credit card through PayPal? It seems this is the deciding factor whether they will esclate and refund the claim or not.

Only 6.77% of my payment was PP balance, the rest was CC.  I got refunded everything.

In contrast to kill-switch's PP situation, I need PP because I am outside the US and US merchants usually do not accept non-US cards.  PP works when the merchant does not block non-US PP accounts, like BFL gladly did until they stopped accepting PP altogether.

Interesting. I am starting to suspect that those who are successfully getting their refunds are the ones who did not pay with the money that was sitting in their PayPal account. I suspect they either used a credit card or bank transfer from within PayPal.

[Searing]

BTCscraper, did you pay BFL with money in your PayPal balance at the time, or did you have to transfer money from your bank account using PayPal, or did you use a credit card through PayPal? It seems this is the deciding factor whether they will esclate and refund the claim or not.

Only 6.77% of my payment was PP balance, the rest was CC.  I got refunded everything.

In contrast to kill-switch's PP situation, I need PP because I am outside the US and US merchants usually do not accept non-US cards.  PP works when the merchant does not block non-US PP accounts, like BFL gladly did until they stopped accepting PP altogether.

Interesting. I am starting to suspect that those who are successfully getting their refunds are the ones who did not pay with the money that was sitting in their PayPal account. I suspect they either used a credit card or bank transfer from within PayPal.

nope your screwed with bank xfer ,,,what I did....(tell me diff please!) only direct cc and paypal or combo of paypal w/cc

by the by my 2nd Saturn order from knc that would have probably shipped next week they allowed me to cancel because 1 day late 16th...seemed prudent with the way things are going PH wise in btc world ..they physically chased it down for me customer service and pulled it off the line...it was in processing what do you think bfl would have done ...was very impressed 2 hrs after email saying I was gonna get refunded it was in my paypal account..and it was beyond 45 days etc..already in processing it would have been easier to just tell me it was too late.Seems at least in customer service area they really do want "repeat custmomers " as their motto.

The Jupiter unit I was gonna keep anyway shipped 15th got it today 18th..is is hashng around 538gh as we speak...so thanks to knc which gave me "gratis' 138gh extra then they planned when I bought it JULY 1st my 125gh loss to BFL don't sting so much yeah still waiting on 65gh from my april 12th orders ...and got the monarch upgrade....neither imho will I see.....I don' t see bfl making it w/o drastic changes at the top imho


and I see bfl still is only taking btc and wire xfer more or less for their new cards how they are gonna survive against KNC who may be in panic mode right now but at least "intent" wise try to make an effort....it was very refreshing

anyway after this stuff from april till now gonna take a break and mine....too much drama....so I've managed to scramble out of the swamp with the same gh I expected more or less if bfl 125gh had come thru and knc was still shipping 400gh units.....sometimes getting out alive is all you can do...i'm not gonna call this a WIN but man after all this drama with BFL and asic's being dumped on market in mass (someone told me knc has 20% of the hash rate nowa/???)

I am gonna call it a DRAW and it is probably more then I deserve and/or expected 1 month ago ....(feel like doing this)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f7wj_RcqYk

[BTCscraper]

Searing, when I checked last week, BFL no longer accepted Paypal for the 65nm devices.  Around 2-3 weeks ago, Cointerra also stated that they stopped accepting Paypal because Paypal no longer wanted to accept payments for pre-order miners.  If KnC still accepts Paypal, that's because they have already demonstrated on-time (or almost-on-time) delivery, and also provide refunds.  I think KnC was also forced to accept cancellations after someone started complaining about them in another thread (and also Cointerra, in another thread).  Only BFL is too thick-skinned to allow refunds.  I do hope you get your Monarch, even if BFL uses Cointerra's or someone else's chips.

[Bicknellski]

Searing, when I checked last week, BFL no longer accepted Paypal for the 65nm devices.  Around 2-3 weeks ago, Cointerra also stated that they stopped accepting Paypal because Paypal no longer wanted to accept payments for pre-order miners.  If KnC still accepts Paypal, that's because they have already demonstrated on-time (or almost-on-time) delivery, and also provide refunds.  I think KnC was also forced to accept cancellations after someone started complaining about them in another thread (and also Cointerra, in another thread).  Only BFL is too thick-skinned to allow refunds.  I do hope you get your Monarch, even if BFL uses Cointerra's or someone else's chips.

More than being "thick-skinned" it is criminal or at the very least a scumbag move and no one should BUY anything from them in the future.

[mamutin]

Searing, when I checked last week, BFL no longer accepted Paypal for the 65nm devices. 

Yes, it is funny. If you now take a look at the BFL payment options, you will only find the following sentence:

We accept Dwolla, Bitcoins and Bank Transfer.

May be they hat to much trouble with PayPal.

[rpg]

BTCscraper, did you pay BFL with money in your PayPal balance at the time, or did you have to transfer money from your bank account using PayPal, or did you use a credit card through PayPal? It seems this is the deciding factor whether they will esclate and refund the claim or not.

Only 6.77% of my payment was PP balance, the rest was CC.  I got refunded everything.

In contrast to kill-switch's PP situation, I need PP because I am outside the US and US merchants usually do not accept non-US cards.  PP works when the merchant does not block non-US PP accounts, like BFL gladly did until they stopped accepting PP altogether.

Interesting. I am starting to suspect that those who are successfully getting their refunds are the ones who did not pay with the money that was sitting in their PayPal account. I suspect they either used a credit card or bank transfer from within PayPal.

I got a refund from paypal money

[mueslo]

BTCscraper, did you pay BFL with money in your PayPal balance at the time, or did you have to transfer money from your bank account using PayPal, or did you use a credit card through PayPal? It seems this is the deciding factor whether they will esclate and refund the claim or not.

Only 6.77% of my payment was PP balance, the rest was CC.  I got refunded everything.

In contrast to kill-switch's PP situation, I need PP because I am outside the US and US merchants usually do not accept non-US cards.  PP works when the merchant does not block non-US PP accounts, like BFL gladly did until they stopped accepting PP altogether.

Interesting. I am starting to suspect that those who are successfully getting their refunds are the ones who did not pay with the money that was sitting in their PayPal account. I suspect they either used a credit card or bank transfer from within PayPal.

No, sadly. My PayPal account is set up so that PayPal draws money from may bank account (through the German "Lastschrift"), but every phone call and e-mail exchange had the same result. "Outside 45-day window. Nothing we can do. Good-bye."

[colinistheman]

BTCscraper, did you pay BFL with money in your PayPal balance at the time, or did you have to transfer money from your bank account using PayPal, or did you use a credit card through PayPal? It seems this is the deciding factor whether they will esclate and refund the claim or not.

Only 6.77% of my payment was PP balance, the rest was CC.  I got refunded everything.

In contrast to kill-switch's PP situation, I need PP because I am outside the US and US merchants usually do not accept non-US cards.  PP works when the merchant does not block non-US PP accounts, like BFL gladly did until they stopped accepting PP altogether.

Interesting. I am starting to suspect that those who are successfully getting their refunds are the ones who did not pay with the money that was sitting in their PayPal account. I suspect they either used a credit card or bank transfer from within PayPal.

I got a refund from paypal money

Was it a while ago that you got the refund? I'm thinking PayPal ran out of money in BFL's account some time after you got your refund

[southerngentuk]

To everyone who received a paypal refund with lajz99's help.

Please support the rest of the community and visit the thread below.

Just because you have a positive outcome does not mean you can not still file a complaint with the FTC.

This is your opportunity to give something back, please spare 10 minutes of your time to complete the form.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=319522.0

Note : I had difficulties accessing the website from outside the US and had to use a proxy plugin with firefox. (web proxies did not work for me.)

[lajz99]

To everyone who received a paypal refund with lajz99's help.

Please support the rest of the community and visit the thread below.

Just because you have a positive outcome does not mean you can not still file a complaint with the FTC.

This is your opportunity to give something back, please spare 10 minutes of your time to complete the form.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=319522.0

Note : I had difficulties accessing the website from outside the US and had to use a proxy plugin with firefox. (web proxies did not work for me.)

Added to OP as well.

[southerngentuk]

Many Thanks