[OT BFL crud from] BPMC Launch BF1 USB miner

[Luke-Jr]

When Luke Jr. asked for a BF1 I gave him the same speech. No I wouldn't ever think about putting a device in your hand due to your lack of integrity with the whole BFL fiasco. Open Source Software developers and Open Source projects in general need to remain neutral but these guys are not playing that way. CKolivas is neutral and we need more people like that.

I wasn't going to say anything in public, but since you see fit to bring it up...
While I respect your decision not to provide me with a device, I think you have some grossly inaccurate views of at least myself.
It's true that I have been working with Butterfly Labs the longest, but that is a given considering they were the first to market with FPGAs.
I think there are many people who can acknowledge that I have gone an extra mile in remaining vendor-neutral.

[Bicknellski]

When Luke Jr. asked for a BF1 I gave him the same speech. No I wouldn't ever think about putting a device in your hand due to your lack of integrity with the whole BFL fiasco. Open Source Software developers and Open Source projects in general need to remain neutral but these guys are not playing that way. CKolivas is neutral and we need more people like that.

I wasn't going to say anything in public, but since you see fit to bring it up...
While I respect your decision not to provide me with a device, I think you have some grossly inaccurate views of at least myself.
It's true that I have been working with Butterfly Labs the longest, but that is a given considering they were the first to market with FPGAs.
I think there are many people who can acknowledge that I have gone an extra mile in remaining vendor-neutral.

The Bet. That unit you "received" never left the building and you were not the "average" customer were you? That to me was indicative of a lapse in moral judgement.

I am all for people changing and working with the community to show they are reformed Luke Jr. but given that incident why would anyone give you a pass now?

[Luke-Jr]

When Luke Jr. asked for a BF1 I gave him the same speech. No I wouldn't ever think about putting a device in your hand due to your lack of integrity with the whole BFL fiasco. Open Source Software developers and Open Source projects in general need to remain neutral but these guys are not playing that way. CKolivas is neutral and we need more people like that.

I wasn't going to say anything in public, but since you see fit to bring it up...
While I respect your decision not to provide me with a device, I think you have some grossly inaccurate views of at least myself.
It's true that I have been working with Butterfly Labs the longest, but that is a given considering they were the first to market with FPGAs.
I think there are many people who can acknowledge that I have gone an extra mile in remaining vendor-neutral.

The Bet.

The only bet I've had any significant involvement in, was only because I was dragged into it because I posted about receiving my first SC device, nearly a year after having ordered it.
I don't see how you can blame me because a bunch of people who lost a bet got upset that the website doing it called a draw.

P.S. I don't really want to hijack your thread. Feel free to continue in PM, or ask a mod to split it to another thread if you prefer to keep it public-but-not-here.

[Bicknellski]

When Luke Jr. asked for a BF1 I gave him the same speech. No I wouldn't ever think about putting a device in your hand due to your lack of integrity with the whole BFL fiasco. Open Source Software developers and Open Source projects in general need to remain neutral but these guys are not playing that way. CKolivas is neutral and we need more people like that.

I wasn't going to say anything in public, but since you see fit to bring it up...
While I respect your decision not to provide me with a device, I think you have some grossly inaccurate views of at least myself.
It's true that I have been working with Butterfly Labs the longest, but that is a given considering they were the first to market with FPGAs.
I think there are many people who can acknowledge that I have gone an extra mile in remaining vendor-neutral.

The Bet.

The only bet I've had any significant involvement in, was only because I was dragged into it because I posted about receiving my first SC device, nearly a year after having ordered it.
I don't see how you can blame me because a bunch of people who lost a bet got upset that the website doing it called a draw.

P.S. I don't really want to hijack your thread. Feel free to continue in PM, or ask a mod to split it to another thread if you prefer to keep it public-but-not-here.

Seems like you got dragged into it again... look before you leap.

[Luke-Jr]

That unit you "received" never left the building and you were not the "average" customer were you?

I never said or implied otherwise.

[Bicknellski]

That unit you "received" never left the building and you were not the "average" customer were you?

I never said or implied otherwise.

No one said you did. Did they? The ethical response should be that the bet was lost and to fully support that side. Where did you come down on the bet? Won or Lost?

[Luke-Jr]

That unit you "received" never left the building and you were not the "average" customer were you?

I never said or implied otherwise.

No one said you did. Did they? The ethical response should be that the bet was lost and to fully support that side. Where did you come down on the bet? Won or Lost?

IMO, the bet terms were poorly defined, and satisfied by BFL handing over the unit to me.
There may have been some room for legitimate interpretation contrary to my opinion (although IIRC the arguments for the "BFL didn't ship" side didn't really hold water), but the end result was that the moderator (who has the final call on interpretation of disputed bets) decided to call it a draw.
As much as it might emotionally have made sense to support the "BFL didn't ship" side, things like this really need to be looked at from a strictly logical view.

Some other betting site had more specific terms, and clearly had a "BFL didn't ship" outcome.
I hope that eventually someone may make a betting site that does proper review of terms to ensure there's no room for different interpretations, but I haven't seen one so far.

[Bicknellski]

IMO, the bet terms were poorly defined, and satisfied by BFL handing over the unit to me.

Well you wonder why I have issues with your ethics? I am not the only one. Your stance on the bet is clearly evidence of that in my humble opinion and frankly I suspect most people here would agree with my view. Sorry but I don't know why I would ever do business with people that can't admit mistakes and or make simple ethical decisions. It is a pattern both in your decision making and is more acute in Kano's case particularly his need to 'extort' hardware from people.

[Luke-Jr]

I don't consider it unethical to "judge" a bet based on evidence rather than emotion; as a matter of my personal opinion (ie, not an official bet judgement), much less!

[Bicknellski]

I don't consider it unethical to "judge" a bet based on evidence rather than emotion; as a matter of personal opinion, much less!

I do as do others. I am fully aware of what the ethical implications are when you play SEMANTICS. Why do you think people have this distrust of you? Why do you think there are people who will not do business with you? There is a pattern... and it goes beyond the bet and I wonder why CKolivas only ignores you on these forums?

Listen you seem like a fine, pious or religious person, no one is asking you to be perfect we are human after all but hiding behind the wording of a bet to justify screwing people over? Come on. Admit it BFL didn't ship shit on April 1st. Crap they can't even ship shit now and that to me, your stance then and now, was and is still morally reprehensible considering that tipped people to buying BFL in April. Given what has transpired you need to own your mistakes and find peace with people who were duped by BFL. Your stance on this issue did harm to some people you have to see that and admit that and own that before you can forgive yourself for those actions. Others simply need to avoid you and not use your services until you can show you have regained control over your ability to be ethically responsible with the community. Jesus might forgive you but the community doesn't have to do shit.

[erk]

I don't consider it unethical to "judge" a bet based on evidence rather than emotion; as a matter of personal opinion, much less!

I do as do others. I am fully aware of what the ethical implications are when you play SEMANTICS. Why do you think people have this distrust of you? Why do you think there are people who will not do business with you? There is a pattern... and it goes beyond the bet. Listen you seem like a fine person, no one is asking you to be perfect we are human after all but hiding behind the wording of a bet to justify screwing people over? Come on. Admit it BFL didn't ship shit on April 1st. Crap they can't even ship shit now.

I don't think BFL want to ship things, they have had almost 6mths since they got their wafers in hand, to smooth out production and shipping, it doesn't really seem to have improved. If someone was to place an order for a Jalapeno today, they wouldn't see it this year, which means it makes it hard for someone to predict how they were going to perform before April this year, because most people assumed that they would ship reasonably efficiently once production actually began. Their entire manufacturing and shipping could have been outsourced to someone faster easily since April, but they didn't want to.

[gmaxwell]

Well you wonder why I have issues with your ethics?

Luke wasn't the bet moderator, and afaik he was always accurate and factual. The information was available, and the bet moderator could factor it into his decision however he saw fit. So your issue, I think, is with the bet moderator not luke. The emotional "anything that isn't opposed to the communists^wBFL is a communist!^wBFL shill" does more to discredit the complaints about BFL than it does to further them.

Though in the moderator's defense, if it were mean and I called it differently it may well have been in BFL-ships favor. The terms of the bet really did stink, as— I recall— many people pointed out before it closed.

[RoadStress]

Well you wonder why I have issues with your ethics?

Luke wasn't the bet moderator, and afaik he was always accurate and factual. The information was available, and the bet moderator could factor it into his decision however he saw fit. So your issue, I think, is with the bet moderator not luke. The emotional "anything that isn't opposed to the communists^wBFL is a communist!^wBFL shill" does more to discredit the complaints about BFL than it does to further them.

Though in the moderator's defense, if it were mean and I called it differently it may well have been in BFL-ships favor. The terms of the bet really did stink, as— I recall— many people pointed out before it closed.

Hey gmaxwell how come you didn't moved this thread? This is the Custom Hardware subsection and all i see retard Luke is complaining for not receiving some free hardware (yes for development)

[Luke-Jr]

all i see retard Luke is complaining for not receiving some free hardware (yes for development)

As I said, I respect his decision not to provide one.
This thread has absolutely nothing to do with that.
Have you considered glasses?

[midnightmagic]

I don't consider it unethical to "judge" a bet based on evidence rather than emotion; as a matter of personal opinion, much less!

I do as do others. I am fully aware of what the ethical implications are when you play SEMANTICS. Why do you think people have this distrust of you? Why do you think there are people who will not do business with you? There is a pattern... and it goes beyond the bet and I wonder why CKolivas only ignores you on these forums?

For what it's worth, the terms of the bet were pretty crappy, and I would think the superhuman amounts of effort that Luke just gives away to the public, even were the bet balancing on the edge of an ethical conundrum, is strong evidence as to Luke's motivations on the whole.

I personally have watched him agonize over ethical considerations, and try to come to rational conclusions based on a love of humans. In the face of virtually universal disdain for his beliefs he, for some reason I haven't yet fathomed, seems to be reacting by giving even more.

I don't mean to imply you don't recognise this, or that you just don't see something that I do.

I just think, even in the rhetorical universe where the bet result was unethical, even if Luke knows it is and is just arguing with you, on the balance, the amount of good he's done is significantly greater. Do our mistakes define us on their own?

[Unacceptable]

You can do 100 "good deeds" & then 1 "bad deed"......................it's the 1 "bad deed" folks will remember you for 

The 100 "good deeds" are lost & never remembered.............................Thanks Luke jr for your work on your miner software 

[tbd]

Luke updated the Bitcoin wiki to show that BFL was shipping the Little Single, and that the Single 'SC' and Mini Rig 'SC' were "Any day now" on April 1st.  https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Mining_hardware_comparison&oldid=36551

The edits were undone by gmaxwell on April 3rd, with the following comments:

Luke using one remotely for development is not shipping

"Any day now" is misleading people, BFL has been "any day now" for a very long time. Besides, an order placed today won't ship until June according to BFL (and I assume thats June in BFL time, which means sometime in 2014)

So, the bet and its terms aside, Luke-Jr was misleading people with respect to the shipping status of BFL products.

[Luke-Jr]

So, the bet and its terms aside, Luke-Jr was misleading people with respect to the shipping status of BFL products.

You've neglected to note that the "Any day now" was still the "no"-red, just a detail.
At the time, I had no way of knowing any better than anyone else, that BFL would take yet more weeks before they started shipping the rest.
Hindsight is always clearer.

Also, you might note that I've done a lot of maintenance on this wiki page, not just this one BFL change.
If you can think of ways to make it better, you can improve it yourself (as gmaxwell did).

[RoadStress]

all i see retard Luke is complaining for not receiving some free hardware (yes for development)

As I said, I respect his decision not to provide one.
This thread has absolutely nothing to do with that.
Have you considered glasses?

Is this thread about a custom hardware that doesn't have a thread already? What is the purpose of this thread exactly?

[Micon]

I think there are many people who can acknowledge that I have gone an extra mile in remaining vendor-neutral.

I firmly believe the above statement is completely false.

Most of the fiasco is here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=165500.0

Luke-Jr was pressured by BFL to make statements to affect the outcome of a BFL-facing bet based on prototype hardware he was given presumably to integrate into BFGminer.  As a decade-long professional gambler, I consider his actions very dishonest.

Also note I think Luke-Jr has done way more good than bad for this community.  
IMO his software is worth at least a dozen ~200 btc mistakes before [sum LukeJr (good done) - (evil done)] becomes negative

Sure hope he is not accepted to the Bitcoin Foundation.