105 Gh/s ASIC miner: Redhash by TAV. (Limited availability on eBay).

[Biomech]

I'm not trolling, I'm genuinely irritated by the misuse of a well understood accounting term.

There are three ways that a hypothetical buyer would not make ROI on this.

1. The unit is DOA (which you have contingencies in place for.)
2. The buyer puts it in their trophy collection and never mines with it.
3. The buyer doesn't use it, gets a refund, and goes on their merry way.

ROI stands for Return ON Investment. Not Return OF Investment. If it mines at all, you make a ROI.

"a return" in this context is synonymous to benefit and to me at least, without qualification implies a non negative, non zero value. The context makes it quite clear and Im perfectly fine if people leave out unneeded words.

Compare it to discount. In theory a discount can also be zero or even negative, but when someone says they get a discount, a positive number is assumed.

Noted. And were this a common usage, I might even agree. But ROI is a very specific term from accounting, not a general usage term. Having now been on this forum for some time, I do understand what people mean. When I first came here, seeing this made my mind twitch. Took me a while to understand that people were not ACTUALLY referring to ROI, but to breakeven.

Not that it really improved matters, because they were getting their panties in a bunch over not meeting breakeven in a two to three week period. (that wasn't aimed at you, Puppet, you've been pretty reasonable even when you were clearly raving mad ).

[PuertoLibre]

I'm not trolling, I'm genuinely irritated by the misuse of a well understood accounting term.

There are three ways that a hypothetical buyer would not make ROI on this.

1. The unit is DOA (which you have contingencies in place for.)
2. The buyer puts it in their trophy collection and never mines with it.
3. The buyer doesn't use it, gets a refund, and goes on their merry way.

ROI stands for Return ON Investment. Not Return OF Investment. If it mines at all, you make a ROI.

"a return" in this context is synonymous to benefit and to me at least, without qualification implies a non negative, non zero value. The context makes it quite clear and Im perfectly fine if people leave out unneeded words.

Compare it to discount. In theory a discount can also be zero or even negative, but when someone says they get a discount, a positive number is assumed.

Noted. And were this a common usage, I might even agree. But ROI is a very specific term from accounting, not a general usage term. Having now been on this forum for some time, I do understand what people mean. When I first came here, seeing this made my mind twitch. Took me a while to understand that people were not ACTUALLY referring to ROI, but to breakeven.

Not that it really improved matters, because they were getting their panties in a bunch over not meeting breakeven in a two to three week period. (that wasn't aimed at you, Puppet, you've been pretty reasonable even when you were clearly raving mad ).

Breaking even means $100 spent --> $200 returned on the investment....

Correct? (not sure what breaking even means, as some people like to use the term to mean they made back what they actually spent...I have heard so many uses of this that it boggles the mind)

Edit: I am not an accountant (thank God) but some folks use ROI to mean "a return on an investment" (literal).

Meaning if you spent $100 then $100.05 is considered "a ROI" (Return on Investment).

=================================

While some, like Inaba, when he has been smoking the PR dong seem to think that even a negative ROI ($89.99) is also a ROI. Though most people would call that "A LOSS" in an investment.

I think most are using ROI in the best sense where you spent/invested $100, got back the invested money, plus got $100 extra.

=================================
Edit 2: And before anyone mentions it....

There are some who consider anything beyond the initial investment being returned as "A ROI". People like Inaba like to use 6+ figure examples for scenarios where someone is only investing a few thousand. No one (in my mind) honestly invests <10,000 expecting a measly 3% return.

People who do those kinds of investments usually put up alot larger sums so that the risk vs payoff is pretty good. (Life savings...not your "bitcoin sized" order...)

[OleOle]

Breaking even means $100 spent --> $200 returned on the investment....

Correct? (not sure what breaking even means, as some people like to use the term to mean they made back what they actually spent...I have heard so many uses of this that it boggles the mind)

Well, I'm no accountant, professional economist, tax official, maths genius or rocket scientist and I don't have any real axe to grind about what is the *right* answer to that question but from the way I understand it in the context of bitcoins and the way that it looks like most people understand it on this forum 'breaking even' would be spending $100 on mining equipment and that equipment delivering $100 in BTC. If it delivered more than $100 it would be a 'profit' and less than $100 would be a 'loss'.

That's the basic answer to the question that you asked.

However, I have to concur with Biomech that in investment terms, ROI does normally mean 'Return On Investment' so if someone says they made 25% ROI on their investment of $100, I'd think that they made a $25 return by exposing their $100 to some type of speculative risk. If the conversation then turns to the $100 invested, then 'preservation of capital' or 'return of principal' is the subject being discussed, not 'return on investment'.

But hey, when in Rome, do as the Romans and most of the folks here seem to infer that ROI in a mining context is what I know as 'return of principal' and a 'return on investment', that is, spend $100 on a miner, make back $100+ in BTC, that's what people here seem to call "making ROI".

Anyway... hope this helps and feel free to differ, there's over seven billion people on the planet, plenty of room for variance



-----



Heard near the water cooler:


"Hey man, why do you mine? Are you making any money?"
"Well..."
"Have you made ROI yet?"
"I haven't made ROI yet but so far I've made about $100 worth of bitcoins..."
"Ok, nice, going well, that's cool, eh?"
"Yeah, I love the blinking leds on the usb sticks, it's wicked when they all flash at the same time after all the random flashes..."
"Yeah man, same here, sweet light show at night, killer dude..."

[Puppet]

We need a new shorthand for "bitcoin denominated positive return on investment".
How about,

BPI

Or

!BFL

?

[mrb]

I agree with Biomech. Breakeven, not ROI, is the right term.

[jedimstr]

We need a new shorthand for "bitcoin denominated positive return on investment".
How about,

BPI

Or

!BFL

?

You've got my vote for !BFL

[cp1]

Breaking even means $100 spent --> $200 returned on the investment....

Correct? (not sure what breaking even means, as some people like to use the term to mean they made back what they actually spent...I have heard so many uses of this that it boggles the mind)

Edit: I am not an accountant (thank God) but some folks use ROI to mean "a return on an investment" (literal).

Meaning if you spent $100 then $100.05 is considered "a ROI" (Return on Investment).

Spending $100 and making back that $100 would be breaking even, with a net gain of $0.  People here use ROI too liberally as you say.  Usually one would specify the actual ROI as a percentage.  If you spend $100 and get $110 with a net gain of $10 then you would have an ROI of 10%.  In the bitcoin world people are ecstatic to get an ROI that's not negative.

[bobsag3]

We need a new shorthand for "bitcoin denominated positive return on investment".
How about,

BPI

Or

!BFL

?

You've got my vote for !BFL

+1 for !BFL

[Miz4r]

I'm not trolling, I'm genuinely irritated by the misuse of a well understood accounting term.

There are three ways that a hypothetical buyer would not make ROI on this.

1. The unit is DOA (which you have contingencies in place for.)
2. The buyer puts it in their trophy collection and never mines with it.
3. The buyer doesn't use it, gets a refund, and goes on their merry way.

ROI stands for Return ON Investment. Not Return OF Investment. If it mines at all, you make a ROI.

"a return" in this context is synonymous to benefit and to me at least, without qualification implies a non negative, non zero value. The context makes it quite clear and Im perfectly fine if people leave out unneeded words.

Compare it to discount. In theory a discount can also be zero or even negative, but when someone says they get a discount, a positive number is assumed.

Exactly, nice analogy. People get too stuck in terms they're so used to that they can't accept it when other people use a term in a different way even though it actually makes perfect sense if you think about it. A negative ROI is a theoretical construct, it's like saying you have money when it shows -$100,00 on your bankaccount balance. I'm sure accountants work with negative ROI all day and it's all normal, but to me and others a 'Return' on an investment implies actually making a profit from it. A negative ROI would basically mean it has become a LOI now (a 'Loss' on Investment). Who is to say this usage is wrong? Just because some accountants/traders can't stand it when people use a term differently or less broadly than they do they get to decide it's wrong? Well that's just too bad, the world doesn't revolve around them. A return to me implies a profit and therefore making ROI means turning an investment into a profit. The same reason I would only say I have money on the bank when my bank account shows a positive balance.

[-Redacted-]

+1 this.  Not to mention peoples use of watts versus joules, or other similar examples of common usage differing from engineering or financial jargon. 

[ProfMac]

Exactly, nice analogy. People get too stuck in terms they're so used to that they can't accept it when other people use a term in a different way even though it actually makes perfect sense if you think about it. A negative ROI is a theoretical construct, it's like saying you have money when it shows -$100,00 on your bankaccount balance. I'm sure accountants work with negative ROI all day and it's all normal, but to me and others a 'Return' on an investment implies actually making a profit from it. A negative ROI would basically mean it has become a LOI now (a 'Loss' on Investment). Who is to say this usage is wrong? Just because some accountants/traders can't stand it when people use a term differently or less broadly than they do they get to decide it's wrong? Well that's just too bad, the world doesn't revolve around them. A return to me implies a profit and therefore making ROI means turning an investment into a profit. The same reason I would only say I have money on the bank when my bank account shows a positive balance.

When you make up meanings to words, people misunderstand you, and even mistrust you.  Some will even accuse you of deception.  This drama takes a lot of energy.

It also takes energy to do a little homework and use the correct language.  But that energy is much less, and you and the surrounding community can be taken seriously by others.

I would like others, such as the utility company and grocer in town, to take bitcoin seriously.

Please take the time to use language correctly.

[xstr8guy]

How about BTCROI?  And it means that you've earned back your initial investment.

Or we could all simply accept the fact that the majority here will continue to use ROI as meaning that they've earned back their initial investment.   

[cp1]

How about +ROI for ROI > 0

[Xian01]

Is it correct that the NIC is wired Ethernet only, with no wireless capabilities in this hardware ?

[mrb]

Is it correct that the NIC is wired Ethernet only, with no wireless capabilities in this hardware ?

Yes. Our TP-LINK WR703N boards have not been modified to have an external wifi antenna (plus we did not add an antenna hole to our chassis).

[mrb]

Only a few more minutes!
05:00 UTC is the official end, but remember, the auction time is extended one minute at a time until there are no bids placed for more than 1 minute.

[optimator]

I just wanted to express my gratitude for a VERY PROFESSIONAL auction.

Your script was perfect for keeping everyone up to date with the latest.

Thanks!

[Biomech]

I'm not trolling, I'm genuinely irritated by the misuse of a well understood accounting term.

There are three ways that a hypothetical buyer would not make ROI on this.

1. The unit is DOA (which you have contingencies in place for.)
2. The buyer puts it in their trophy collection and never mines with it.
3. The buyer doesn't use it, gets a refund, and goes on their merry way.

ROI stands for Return ON Investment. Not Return OF Investment. If it mines at all, you make a ROI.

"a return" in this context is synonymous to benefit and to me at least, without qualification implies a non negative, non zero value. The context makes it quite clear and Im perfectly fine if people leave out unneeded words.

Compare it to discount. In theory a discount can also be zero or even negative, but when someone says they get a discount, a positive number is assumed.

Noted. And were this a common usage, I might even agree. But ROI is a very specific term from accounting, not a general usage term. Having now been on this forum for some time, I do understand what people mean. When I first came here, seeing this made my mind twitch. Took me a while to understand that people were not ACTUALLY referring to ROI, but to breakeven.

Not that it really improved matters, because they were getting their panties in a bunch over not meeting breakeven in a two to three week period. (that wasn't aimed at you, Puppet, you've been pretty reasonable even when you were clearly raving mad ).

Breaking even means $100 spent --> $200 returned on the investment....

Correct? (not sure what breaking even means, as some people like to use the term to mean they made back what they actually spent...I have heard so many uses of this that it boggles the mind)

Edit: I am not an accountant (thank God) but some folks use ROI to mean "a return on an investment" (literal).

Meaning if you spent $100 then $100.05 is considered "a ROI" (Return on Investment).

=================================

While some, like Inaba, when he has been smoking the PR dong seem to think that even a negative ROI ($89.99) is also a ROI. Though most people would call that "A LOSS" in an investment.

I think most are using ROI in the best sense where you spent/invested $100, got back the invested money, plus got $100 extra.

=================================
Edit 2: And before anyone mentions it....

There are some who consider anything beyond the initial investment being returned as "A ROI". People like Inaba like to use 6+ figure examples for scenarios where someone is only investing a few thousand. No one (in my mind) honestly invests <10,000 expecting a measly 3% return.

People who do those kinds of investments usually put up alot larger sums so that the risk vs payoff is pretty good. (Life savings...not your "bitcoin sized" order...)

I just got home from a job interview and I'm too frazzled to find the wiki link, but their article goes pretty in depth. However, your first example their would be actually 100 percent positive ROI, given no other costs. Breakeven is actually when the cost of the equipment and any associated operating costs are completely recovered. If you spent 100 and got back 25 in a given time frame, your ROI would be -75. ROI doesn't equal profit, though profit can be part of your ROI.

It can get pretty complex. It seems that almost everyone here uses it in place of breakeven. I admit, it's grammar policing, but it gets to me. I am not an accountant by trade, but as a restaurant manager I had to learn the trade pretty severely. I couldn't test out as a CPA, but I could probably challenge over 80 percent of the curriculum between my work experience and my deep and abiding interest in the dismal science

And I'll shut up about it for now in this thread. Didn't mean to hijack it. My congrats to the TAV team, and the best of success to your future endeavors. This now makes three asic vendors I'm willing to do business with when I have the ability to do so.

[Biomech]

How about +ROI for ROI > 0

Ok, I know I said I'd shut up, but...

This. It's actually correct. and -ROI for negative ROI.

Y'know, I'll revisit this in a few days when I have more time and write up an article about it. The usage matters, it's not merely semantic. But I've been up for a long LONG time right now, and I'm not sure it wouldn't come out in Klingon or something

[Speakeron]

Who is to say this usage is wrong? Just because some accountants/traders can't stand it when people use a term differently or less broadly than they do they get to decide it's wrong? Well that's just too bad, the world doesn't revolve around them. A return to me implies a profit and therefore making ROI means turning an investment into a profit. The same reason I would only say I have money on the bank when my bank account shows a positive balance.

That's like a postmodernist view of science - "hey dude, if you believe it, it's fine, there are no absolutes!".

It's not just accountants and traders; if you ever run a business, or even get slightly involved in the running of one, you'd better know what ROI really means otherwise it's all going to end in tears... (It's no coincidence that mrb, who is certainly running a business here, knows precisely what ROI means).