Tradehill - lawsuit waiting to happen

[OrangeSun]

Are you trying to make a point, or are you just throwing out random irrelevant facts?

I guess I am still thinking aloud.. but it will really help if Adam or Jered can share some details about their legal agreements that allow them to send money from one country to other, and still be perfectly legal.  

[1714009272]

1714009272

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

Is this Senator Schumer?

Jered

[error]

Are you trying to make a point, or are you just throwing out random irrelevant facts?

I guess I am still thinking aloud.. but it will really help if Adam or Jered can share some details about their legal agreements that allow them to be send money from one country to other, and still be perfectly legal.  

And why wouldn't it be?!

[OrangeSun]

Are you trying to make a point, or are you just throwing out random irrelevant facts?

I guess I am still thinking aloud.. but it will really help if Adam or Jered can share some details about their legal agreements that allow them to be send money from one country to other, and still be perfectly legal.  

And why wouldn't it be?!

I guess I am still used to the old thinking that you have to be a bank to send money internationally, and register with ton of different agencies. 

[OrangeSun]

Is this Senator Schumer?

Jered

Haha funny, not!  You guys are quoting wikipedia instead of sharing some concrete legal details. 

So I will pull back and just ask one single question before I go to sleep:

Jered and Adam, can you unequivocally claim that your set up to send money between multiple countries is 100% legal?  Remember, this is a public forum so your answer will be stored here for ever, if you choose to ever answer my question!

GN!

[error]

Is this Senator Schumer?

Jered

Haha funny, not!  You guys are quoting wikipedia instead of sharing some concrete legal details.  

So I will pull back and just ask one single question before I go to sleep:

Jered and Adam, can you unequivocally claim that your set up to send money between multiple countries is 100% legal?  Remember, this is a public forum so your answer will be stored here for ever, if you choose to ever answer my question!

GN!

I'm not your attorney, but I can guarantee with 100% certainty that your attorney will tell you not to answer that.

I can also guarantee that nobody, anywhere on this planet, can say truthfully that they didn't break a law today.

[tvbcof]

One more question for Jered:  

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?  

Hi OrangeSun,

There is nothing illegal about transferring money around the global for international business.

The definition of money laundering is :"Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money. Ultimately, it is the process by which the proceeds of crime are made to appear legitimate."

Since we are not engaged in illegal activities, and we are not trying to conceal the source of our funds, then we are not money laundering.

For more info, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

Regards,
Adam

Adam, from the same wikipedia page: 

    Structuring: Often known as "smurfing," it is a method of placement by which cash is broken into smaller deposits of money, used to defeat suspicion of money laundering and to avoid anti-money laundering reporting requirements. A sub-component of this is to use smaller amounts of cash to purchase bearer instruments, such as money orders, and then ultimately deposit those, again in small amounts.[4]

Bitcoin can be considered a "Bearer Instrument".

Seems like pretty weak sauce dude.

Where's anything about anything Illegal which seems, accd to the (admittedly non-authoritative) Wikipedia, to be the defining element of money laundering?

Insofar as 'bearer instruments', what's the distinction between the wire transfer or Dwolla, Bitcoin, or the Chilean peso withdrawals?

I imagine that most everyone agrees that if there 'illegally obtained money' being moved around, the crime should be investigated and it's my guess and expectation that Tradehill would cooperate fully (probably it is in their TOS...I've forgotten.)  I see nothing illegal about Tradehill's business, and the I know first hand that in the dealings I have had with them, there was nothing illegal on my end of things.

I would say you are shooting blanks so far.  Perhaps some high-powered para-legal could jump onto Wikipedia and straighten them out if they have got it wrong.

[OrangeSun]

One more question for Jered:  

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?  

Hi OrangeSun,

There is nothing illegal about transferring money around the global for international business.

The definition of money laundering is :"Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money. Ultimately, it is the process by which the proceeds of crime are made to appear legitimate."

Since we are not engaged in illegal activities, and we are not trying to conceal the source of our funds, then we are not money laundering.

For more info, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

Regards,
Adam

Adam, from the same wikipedia page: 

    Structuring: Often known as "smurfing," it is a method of placement by which cash is broken into smaller deposits of money, used to defeat suspicion of money laundering and to avoid anti-money laundering reporting requirements. A sub-component of this is to use smaller amounts of cash to purchase bearer instruments, such as money orders, and then ultimately deposit those, again in small amounts.[4]

Bitcoin can be considered a "Bearer Instrument".

Seems like pretty weak sauce dude.

Where's anything about anything Illegal which seems, accd to the (admittedly non-authoritative) Wikipedia, to be the defining element of money laundering?

Insofar as 'bearer instruments', what's the distinction between the wire transfer or Dwolla, Bitcoin, or the Chilean peso withdrawals?

I imagine that most everyone agrees that if there 'illegally obtained money' being moved around, the crime should be investigated and it's my guess and expectation that Tradehill would cooperate fully (probably it is in their TOS...I've forgotten.)  I see nothing illegal about Tradehill's business, and the I know first hand that in the dealings I have had with them, there was nothing illegal on my end of things.

I would say you are shooting blanks so far.  Perhaps some high-powered para-legal could jump onto Wikipedia and straighten them out if they have got it wrong.

Point isn't about my legal skills... point is that these guys are quoting wikipedia!  I was being sarcastic by quoting it back.


Anyways, we will never get the real answer till someone gets sued.  So locking this thread.

[Silverpike]

One more question for Jered:  

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?  

I agree bitcoin can be global, borderless. But exchanges will have to be LOCAL!  International exchange accepting 22 currencies is hard to prove as a legal operation.

Are you seriously dumb enough to argue that exchanging one currency for another currency through an intermediary is "money laundering"? 

What do you think Western Union does? 

Jesus, stay out of the legal profession for all our sakes.

[killer2021]

The guy is a troll. We've dealt with this before, don't feed 'em.

[imperi]

I wonder what his issue is, why he's pressing so hard about this.

[koin]

I wonder what his issue is, why he's pressing so hard about this.

fear.

when 90% of what you do can be performed at a fraction of the cost by someone half a world away once the regulatory protections are circumvented by bitcoin + encryption + anonymity (tor), you'ld start panicking too!

Bitcoin Lawyer Introduction Thread: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=13882.0

[OrangeSun]

BUMP

Perhaps the people name calling me a troll should take another look at Tradehill and ask the necessary questions about their operations.  Missing $37,000 in first two months is hard to pull off without spectacular sloppiness.

[Clipse]

BUMP

Perhaps the people name calling me a troll should take another look at Tradehill and ask the necessary questions about their operations.  Missing $37,000 in first two months is hard to pull off without spectacular sloppiness.

Please give me the number of the firm you paralegal for(assuming you are still employed) to report your total abusive approach to the law.

For a paralegal you dont seem to know how to do research re: 37k STOLEN by dwolla and picked up by tradehill auditing within 7days after it was stolen. That is pretty amazing auditing when you handle more than $1 a day of transaction(pretty sure you are in the $1 daily bread and butter basket)

[Bitcoin Swami]

BUMP

Perhaps the people name calling me a troll should take another look at Tradehill and ask the necessary questions about their operations.  Missing $37,000 in first two months is hard to pull off without spectacular sloppiness.

Something makes me think there are a couple dwolla employees on posting on this forum.  They're pretty easy to pick out.

[bbit]

BUMP

Perhaps the people name calling me a troll should take another look at Tradehill and ask the necessary questions about their operations.  Missing $37,000 in first two months is hard to pull off without spectacular sloppiness.

Something makes me think there are a couple dwolla employees on posting on this forum.  They're pretty easy to pick out.

+1 -  I think you are on to something  can you say damage control ?

[Meatpile]

Haha he is demanding free legal advice from a company that has had to deal with legal concerns about their business.

Well I am sure they had to pay a lawyer to figure some of this stuff out, but it sure doesn't mean they have to then publicly hand out said legal advice to anyone that asks.

[timmey]

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?  

You mean like
Deposit EUR in Finnland -> Western Union -> Withdraw USD in USA
or
Deposit USD in USA -> paypal -> Withdraw RMB in China
or
money bookers or Liberty Reverse or WebMoney or C-Gold or....?

[joulesbeef]

someone is trolling hard core.. especially with that ignorant tradehill/dwolla comment.

You legal skills are in question and are on topic, you are offering legal advice and legal interpretation. OF course your skills and experience matter. Are you daft?

Perhaps if you didnt act like you were an expert this would be trolling.

"i'm a paralegal and I have some questions, to me it looks like tradehill might have broken this law"

Not "OMG bitcoin is fucked, tradehill broke the law, the entire network is shaking and even if tradehill didnt break the law, I'm sure some lawyer can make it look shady as hell and I know all this cause I am an expert paralegal."

[Newton]

I can explain to you exactly why it isn't money laundering.

Money Laundering requires that that originating funds come from an illegal source. The laundering occurs when you exchang illegal gotten money for legal funds. What you described is nothing more than exchanging one currency for another.

Stick with para-legal, i.e, fetching the coffee, the pizza and word processing what the lawyers tell you to.

Weird, he sounds just like you.