problem with off-chain "provably fair" games

[trout]

here's a possible cheat for a site:
change the game the user played.
If the user bets on "high" ("red") and the result is a win, just pretend he bet on "low" (or "black" or whatever), so the result is a loss.
Or change any other parameters of the game, such as odds.
Keep everything else (hashes, etc.) the same.


The user would know he'd been cheated, but (s)he would have no way of proving it to anyone.


This problem does not exist with on-chain gaming sites, where the bets are made publicly.

I think this can be solved by introducing used-side private keys and randomness, but this complicates
the verification considerably

or am I missing something here?

EDIT: realized that it's even easier to cheat: just change the balance to an arbitrary value.
This problem does not exist in on-chain as well as in real-life casinos

[1715242757]

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[meta.p02]

I take video. Now what?

Anyway, sites like JD, PD already have a client seed that you can change at will. The roll can only be determined from the secret server seed and your own seed.

[trout]

I take video. Now what?

video is not "provably fair"

Anyway, sites like JD, PD already have a client seed that you can change at will. The roll can only be determined from the secret server seed and your own seed.

and this has nothing to do with the problem described in OP.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

here's a possible cheat for a site:
change the game the user played.
If the user bets on "high" ("red") and the result is a win, just pretend he bet on "low" (or "black" or whatever), so the result is a loss.
Or change any other parameters of the game, such as odds.
Keep everything else (hashes, etc.) the same.


The user would know he'd been cheated, but (s)he would have no way of proving it to anyone.


This problem does not exist with on-chain gaming sites, where the bets are made publicly.

I think this can be solved by introducing used-side private keys and randomness, but this complicates
the verification considerably

or am I missing something here?

You're not missing anything. However, the USER will know he bet high / low. And that user will stop betting.

[Zaih]

If a few users post saying thus occurred, then I'd assume that is the same as them having hard evidence of the hashes not adding up.

[trout]

You're not missing anything. However, the USER will know he bet high / low. And that user will stop betting.

That's a bit weak to be called "provably fair" though. I can imagine
both a site singling out a user or two to cheat on - and still keeping its good reputation,
and a bunch of colluding users starting to slander a site claiming they were cheated
this way - just to bring the site's shares down, for example.

Actually, I wonder why none of these has happened yet, especially the second scenario.

[ASICSRUS]

I take video. Now what?

Anyway, sites like JD, PD already have a client seed that you can change at will. The roll can only be determined from the secret server seed and your own seed.

 secret server seed is the way they change at will ~ besides no one can even tell me who invented  the "provably fair" term!  = fffkin boatload of kool aid !

[knowitnothing]

I take video. Now what?

Anyway, sites like JD, PD already have a client seed that you can change at will. The roll can only be determined from the secret server seed and your own seed.

 secret server seed is the way they change at will ~ besides no one can even tell me who invented  the "provably fair" term!  = fffkin boatload of kool aid !

You can't change the secret server seed because that will change the hash you received earlier. Even if you find a collision, you would still need to find one that gives the same results along all the rolls.

Regarding the origin of the term, I replied to you earlier. Here is the exact reply:

"""
An old enough reference:

Constructive and Provably Fair Coin Flip in Byzantine Networks. B Awerbucb, B Char, S Goldwasser, S Micali - 1984.
"""

[ASICSRUS]

I take video. Now what?

Anyway, sites like JD, PD already have a client seed that you can change at will. The roll can only be determined from the secret server seed and your own seed.

 secret server seed is the way they change at will ~ besides no one can even tell me who invented  the "provably fair" term!  = fffkin boatload of kool aid !

You can't change the secret server seed because that will change the hash you received earlier. Even if you find a collision, you would still need to find one that gives the same results along all the rolls.

Regarding the origin of the term, I replied to you earlier. Here is the exact reply:

"""
An old enough reference:

Constructive and Provably Fair Coin Flip in Byzantine Networks. B Awerbucb, B Char, S Goldwasser, S Micali - 1984.
"""

that referance is so old, what does that have to do with online dice fairness?
+even your ggdice is rigged i can tell by playing for the past 5 minutes at 91% seeing multple RED in short order and whacks before key pivot points! gtfo!

[knowitnothing]

I take video. Now what?

Anyway, sites like JD, PD already have a client seed that you can change at will. The roll can only be determined from the secret server seed and your own seed.

 secret server seed is the way they change at will ~ besides no one can even tell me who invented  the "provably fair" term!  = fffkin boatload of kool aid !

You can't change the secret server seed because that will change the hash you received earlier. Even if you find a collision, you would still need to find one that gives the same results along all the rolls.

Regarding the origin of the term, I replied to you earlier. Here is the exact reply:

"""
An old enough reference:

Constructive and Provably Fair Coin Flip in Byzantine Networks. B Awerbucb, B Char, S Goldwasser, S Micali - 1984.
"""

that referance is so old, what does that have to do with online dice fairness?
+even your ggdice is rigged i can tell by playing for the past 5 minutes at 91% seeing multple RED in short order and whacks before key pivot points! gtfo!

What's the problem with reusing meaningful terms that perfectly apply to the current use ? To me it's like saying the word "search" is too old and has nothing to do with online search.

I'm not sure why I'm arguing with you, but can you at least say the actual user you played with ? If you're user 2296, you played with a payout of 3x, win chance of 33%, at room 1 with Fakecoins. You won 3 times and lost 5. Even if you lost all of them, or won all of them, that wouldn't make the game rigged. You can check your rolls online at http://jsfiddle.net/wn3CT/embedded/result/

Now, by looking in the recent bets at 91% win chance, I see user 2290. Is that you ? Your current profit after after 214 bets is 989.80139959 FC , where you won 197 times for a win ratio of 92.06%.

[ASICSRUS]

I take video. Now what?

Anyway, sites like JD, PD already have a client seed that you can change at will. The roll can only be determined from the secret server seed and your own seed.

 secret server seed is the way they change at will ~ besides no one can even tell me who invented  the "provably fair" term!  = fffkin boatload of kool aid !

You can't change the secret server seed because that will change the hash you received earlier. Even if you find a collision, you would still need to find one that gives the same results along all the rolls.

Regarding the origin of the term, I replied to you earlier. Here is the exact reply:

"""
An old enough reference:

Constructive and Provably Fair Coin Flip in Byzantine Networks. B Awerbucb, B Char, S Goldwasser, S Micali - 1984.
"""

that referance is so old, what does that have to do with online dice fairness?
+even your ggdice is rigged i can tell by playing for the past 5 minutes at 91% seeing multple RED in short order and whacks before key pivot points! gtfo!

What's the problem with reusing meaningful terms that perfectly apply to the current use ? To me it's like saying the word "search" is too old and has nothing to do with online search.

I'm not sure why I'm arguing with you, but can you at least say the actual user you played with ? If you're user 2296, you played with a payout of 3x, win chance of 33%, at room 1 with Fakecoins. You won 3 times and lost 5. Even if you lost all of them, or won all of them, that wouldn't make the game rigged. You can check your rolls online at http://jsfiddle.net/wn3CT/embedded/result/

i set it to 91 percent and you see 3 red on the screen you know its bullshit ~come on turkey!  LMAO

[knowitnothing]

I take video. Now what?

Anyway, sites like JD, PD already have a client seed that you can change at will. The roll can only be determined from the secret server seed and your own seed.

 secret server seed is the way they change at will ~ besides no one can even tell me who invented  the "provably fair" term!  = fffkin boatload of kool aid !

You can't change the secret server seed because that will change the hash you received earlier. Even if you find a collision, you would still need to find one that gives the same results along all the rolls.

Regarding the origin of the term, I replied to you earlier. Here is the exact reply:

"""
An old enough reference:

Constructive and Provably Fair Coin Flip in Byzantine Networks. B Awerbucb, B Char, S Goldwasser, S Micali - 1984.
"""

that referance is so old, what does that have to do with online dice fairness?
+even your ggdice is rigged i can tell by playing for the past 5 minutes at 91% seeing multple RED in short order and whacks before key pivot points! gtfo!

What's the problem with reusing meaningful terms that perfectly apply to the current use ? To me it's like saying the word "search" is too old and has nothing to do with online search.

I'm not sure why I'm arguing with you, but can you at least say the actual user you played with ? If you're user 2296, you played with a payout of 3x, win chance of 33%, at room 1 with Fakecoins. You won 3 times and lost 5. Even if you lost all of them, or won all of them, that wouldn't make the game rigged. You can check your rolls online at http://jsfiddle.net/wn3CT/embedded/result/

i set it to 91 percent and you see 3 red on the screen you know its bullshit ~come on turkey!  LMAO

You can download your bets and make it public to other people see. If you were user 2290, here is a summary: http://pastebin.com/ZnW65Z5e

[cbhelp]

the worst thing about of chain betting sites like just diced r that the owner knows the secret seed and can bet against his investors and steal all of the money at any time.  the owner could make it look like thata random user came in and won all of the btc but really it was the owner stealing. Doog has admitted it is possible.

[icedicedavid]

here's a possible cheat for a site:
change the game the user played.
If the user bets on "high" ("red") and the result is a win, just pretend he bet on "low" (or "black" or whatever), so the result is a loss.
Or change any other parameters of the game, such as odds.
Keep everything else (hashes, etc.) the same.


The user would know he'd been cheated, but (s)he would have no way of proving it to anyone.


This problem does not exist with on-chain gaming sites, where the bets are made publicly.

I think this can be solved by introducing used-side private keys and randomness, but this complicates
the verification considerably

or am I missing something here?

https://ice-dice.com we don't roll high or low. you select a range to guess the number. you can choose 25-75 and if the number lands in between that you will win.

[knowitnothing]

the worst thing about of chain betting sites like just diced r that the owner knows the secret seed and can bet against his investors and steal all of the money at any time.  the owner could make it look like thata random user came in and won all of the btc but really it was the owner stealing.

This is not a "feature" for the off the chain games, the same applies for the on the chain games. Open the verification page at satoshidice and you will find this: "In order to ensure that there is no way for the system to change the outcome of a bet, the secret keys used are decided ahead of time. They are not released right away, since they could be used to submit selective transactions and win bets unfairly".

To solve this we need a new method for picking the results, while still maintaining the provably fair part.

[knowitnothing]

... don't roll high or low. you select a range to guess the number. you can choose 25-75 and if the number lands in between that you will win.

The exactly same problem applies: 1) User picks the 25-75 range; 2) The roll results in 75 being selected; 3) The site tells the user he picked the 24-74 range.

[ASICSRUS]

here's a possible cheat for a site:
change the game the user played.
If the user bets on "high" ("red") and the result is a win, just pretend he bet on "low" (or "black" or whatever), so the result is a loss.
Or change any other parameters of the game, such as odds.
Keep everything else (hashes, etc.) the same.


The user would know he'd been cheated, but (s)he would have no way of proving it to anyone.


This problem does not exist with on-chain gaming sites, where the bets are made publicly.

I think this can be solved by introducing used-side private keys and randomness, but this complicates
the verification considerably

or am I missing something here?

https://ice-dice.com we don't roll high or low. you select a range to guess the number. you can choose 25-75 and if the number lands in between that you will win.

get out of here with that noise your site is rigged and you know it, plus you have major bugs/glitches! beta test with real btc?? Good Lord: you should go hide somewhere far away from here imo

[ASICSRUS]

the worst thing about of chain betting sites like just diced r that the owner knows the secret seed and can bet against his investors and steal all of the money at any time.  the owner could make it look like thata random user came in and won all of the btc but really it was the owner stealing.

This is not a "feature" for the off the chain games, the same applies for the on the chain games. Open the verification page at satoshidice and you will find this: "In order to ensure that there is no way for the system to change the outcome of a bet, the secret keys used are decided ahead of time. They are not released right away, since they could be used to submit selective transactions and win bets unfairly".

To solve this we need a new method for picking the results, while still maintaining the provably fair part.

the only sure way i see is to have a live feed of someone actually throwing dice! hmmm
  
 *watch!*

[knowitnothing]

the worst thing about of chain betting sites like just diced r that the owner knows the secret seed and can bet against his investors and steal all of the money at any time.  the owner could make it look like thata random user came in and won all of the btc but really it was the owner stealing.

This is not a "feature" for the off the chain games, the same applies for the on the chain games. Open the verification page at satoshidice and you will find this: "In order to ensure that there is no way for the system to change the outcome of a bet, the secret keys used are decided ahead of time. They are not released right away, since they could be used to submit selective transactions and win bets unfairly".

To solve this we need a new method for picking the results, while still maintaining the provably fair part.

the only sure way i see is to have a live feed of someone actually throwing dice!

How can the player know the dice is not loaded ? How can the player know the throws are not using some mechanism to make the dice land at a certain value ? Also, how can the player even know the entire throw was done in a live feed ? Maybe just part of the throw is, the other is not.

[ASICSRUS]

the worst thing about of chain betting sites like just diced r that the owner knows the secret seed and can bet against his investors and steal all of the money at any time.  the owner could make it look like thata random user came in and won all of the btc but really it was the owner stealing.

This is not a "feature" for the off the chain games, the same applies for the on the chain games. Open the verification page at satoshidice and you will find this: "In order to ensure that there is no way for the system to change the outcome of a bet, the secret keys used are decided ahead of time. They are not released right away, since they could be used to submit selective transactions and win bets unfairly".

To solve this we need a new method for picking the results, while still maintaining the provably fair part.

the only sure way i see is to have a live feed of someone actually throwing dice!

How can the player know the dice is not loaded ? How can the player know the throws are not using some mechanism to make the dice land at a certain value ? Also, how can the player even know the entire throw was done in a live feed ? Maybe just part of the throw is, the other is not.

even loaded dice would produce fairer results than these scam sites!   imho

[knowitnothing]

even loaded dice would produce fairer results than these scam sites!   imho

The discussion is about whether it is possible to cheat the players or not. It is, and it is irrelevant whether it is off the chain, on the chain, a real casino in Las Vegas, or even -- believe it or not -- a live feed by ASICSRUS (or insanity dice).

You never proved any of the sites are scamming, although some of them could very well be. You said my site is rigged, so here is a deal I have to you: we can ask someone to escrow a certain BTC amount from both of us, if in 1 entire month you can prove that, then you get it all, otherwise I get it. If you are so certain it is a scam I don't see why you wouldn't do it, otherwise please keep your humble opinions to yourself. I can arrange this such that the escrow, and other people, receives every (signed) bet you make before the system decides the outcome, so you can check that no bets were modified, and you can always check for fair results.

[ASICSRUS]

even loaded dice would produce fairer results than these scam sites!   imho

The discussion is about whether it is possible to cheat the players or not. It is, and it is irrelevant whether it is off the chain, on the chain, a real casino in Las Vegas, or even -- believe it or not -- a live feed by ASICSRUS (or insanity dice).

You never proved any of the sites are scamming, although some of them could very well be. You said my site is rigged, so here is a deal I have to you: we can ask someone to escrow a certain BTC amount from both of us, if in 1 entire month you can prove that, then you get it all, otherwise I get it. If you are so certain it is a scam I don't see why you wouldn't do it, otherwise please keep your humble opinions to yourself. I can arrange this such that the escrow, and other people, receives every (signed) bet you make before the system decides the outcome, so you can check that no bets were modified, and you can always check for fair results.

yes Scamming by false representation>>
should i just send you my address now?..LOL i can prove it's rigged via higher bets triggering losing(kill switch) ~ i can make a movie for you to watch. no escrow i trust you just put your money where your mouth is !

[knowitnothing]

even loaded dice would produce fairer results than these scam sites!   imho

The discussion is about whether it is possible to cheat the players or not. It is, and it is irrelevant whether it is off the chain, on the chain, a real casino in Las Vegas, or even -- believe it or not -- a live feed by ASICSRUS (or insanity dice).

You never proved any of the sites are scamming, although some of them could very well be. You said my site is rigged, so here is a deal I have to you: we can ask someone to escrow a certain BTC amount from both of us, if in 1 entire month you can prove that, then you get it all, otherwise I get it. If you are so certain it is a scam I don't see why you wouldn't do it, otherwise please keep your humble opinions to yourself. I can arrange this such that the escrow, and other people, receives every (signed) bet you make before the system decides the outcome, so you can check that no bets were modified, and you can always check for fair results.

yes Scamming by false representation>>
should i just send you my address now?..LOL i can prove it's rigged via higher bets triggering losing(kill switch) ~ i can make a movie for you to watch. no escrow i trust you just put your money where your mouth is !

We need a escrow because I don't believe you will honor anything after you notice you can't prove what you say. I don't need a movie from the bets since I have all them stored.

If you're interested in doing the deal, send me a PM about it and how much you want to put into this and I will contact someone to escrow, otherwise I'm not continuing with this discussion.

[arsenische]

If the player signs the bet, then the casino can prove the game was fair.

[ASICSRUS]

even loaded dice would produce fairer results than these scam sites!   imho

The discussion is about whether it is possible to cheat the players or not. It is, and it is irrelevant whether it is off the chain, on the chain, a real casino in Las Vegas, or even -- believe it or not -- a live feed by ASICSRUS (or insanity dice).

You never proved any of the sites are scamming, although some of them could very well be. You said my site is rigged, so here is a deal I have to you: we can ask someone to escrow a certain BTC amount from both of us, if in 1 entire month you can prove that, then you get it all, otherwise I get it. If you are so certain it is a scam I don't see why you wouldn't do it, otherwise please keep your humble opinions to yourself. I can arrange this such that the escrow, and other people, receives every (signed) bet you make before the system decides the outcome, so you can check that no bets were modified, and you can always check for fair results.

yes Scamming by false representation>>
should i just send you my address now?..LOL i can prove it's rigged via higher bets triggering losing(kill switch) ~ i can make a movie for you to watch. no escrow i trust you just put your money where your mouth is !

We need a escrow because I don't believe you will honor anything after you notice you can't prove what you say. I don't need a movie from the bets since I have all them stored.

If you're interested in doing the deal, send me a PM about it and how much you want to put into this and I will contact someone to escrow, otherwise I'm not continuing with this discussion.

what you are saying: escrow concept goes against the satoshi white paper, i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it! Let people watch my movie, then vote on the obvious !!!   ====>YOU JUST LOST 1BTC!!!(or you just talking out your ass?)

[knowitnothing]

i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it!

Do demonstrate then. No PM received, I take the deal is not interesting to you ?

[ASICSRUS]

i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it!

Do demonstrate then. No PM received, I take the deal is not interesting to you ?

I get the impression you aint going to pay even when i prove it ! lmfao

[knowitnothing]

i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it!

Do demonstrate then. No PM received, I take the deal is not interesting to you ?

I get the impression you aint going to pay even when i prove it ! lmfao

That's what the escrow is for.

[ASICSRUS]

i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it!

Do demonstrate then. No PM received, I take the deal is not interesting to you ?

I get the impression you aint going to pay even when i prove it ! lmfao

That's what the escrow is for.

escrow is for scammers! i can prove these games are rigged right here right now will you pay me>>> no ,,,so go get a life! 

[knowitnothing]

i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it!

Do demonstrate then. No PM received, I take the deal is not interesting to you ?

I get the impression you aint going to pay even when i prove it ! lmfao

That's what the escrow is for.

escrow is for scammers! i can prove these games are rigged right here right now will you pay me>>> no ,,,so go get a life! 

I believe you are going to scam me, so the escrow is working just fine. Great.

Now, I don't know which are "these" games you're talking about. I can only talk about ggdice, and I'm willing to pay you (or anyone else if interested) if you prove it's rigged. No need to keep repeating this and inflating the post count, let's settle this outside this thread.

[ASICSRUS]

i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it!

Do demonstrate then. No PM received, I take the deal is not interesting to you ?

I get the impression you aint going to pay even when i prove it ! lmfao

That's what the escrow is for.

escrow is for scammers! i can prove these games are rigged right here right now will you pay me>>> no ,,,so go get a life!  

I believe you are going to scam me, so the escrow is working just fine. Great.

Now, I don't know which are "these" games you're talking about. I can only talk about ggdice, and I'm willing to pay you (or anyone else if interested) if you prove it's rigged. No need to keep repeating this and inflating the post count, let's settle this outside this thread.

\/\/hat constitutes proof?
so you are the operater of ggdice? how can i scam you by simply showing you how your site is rigged per higher bets changing the outcome resulting in lossing odds against the user?. It seems we have a bunch of you clowns following an industry standard of deception!    nobrainer=house always wins!

[knowitnothing]

i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it!

Do demonstrate then. No PM received, I take the deal is not interesting to you ?

I get the impression you aint going to pay even when i prove it ! lmfao

That's what the escrow is for.

escrow is for scammers! i can prove these games are rigged right here right now will you pay me>>> no ,,,so go get a life!  

I believe you are going to scam me, so the escrow is working just fine. Great.

Now, I don't know which are "these" games you're talking about. I can only talk about ggdice, and I'm willing to pay you (or anyone else if interested) if you prove it's rigged. No need to keep repeating this and inflating the post count, let's settle this outside this thread.

\/\/hat constitutes proof?
so you are the operater of ggdice? how can i scam you by simply showing you how your site is rigged per higher bets changing the outcome resulting in lossing odds against the user?. It seems we have a bunch of you clowns following an industry standard of deception!    nobrainer=house always wins!

A proof is a sequence of steps that demonstrates that a given statement is true. You can learn more about it here and here.

You have a hard time reading posts, I hope you will read this one entirely. How you can scam me: 1) we define that I will give x BTC in case you prove ggdice is rigged, and that you will give me x BTC otherwise; 2) you never prove it, and never send the x BTC. Escrow solves this.

You won't be able to show that higher bets change the outcomes in any way because the bet amount is not taken into consideration when determining the outcome. The method for determining the results is described clearly on the site, and there are two links for checking the rolls yourself (I gave one earlier in this thread, you probably didn't manage to read the post).

[ASICSRUS]

i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it!

Do demonstrate then. No PM received, I take the deal is not interesting to you ?

I get the impression you aint going to pay even when i prove it ! lmfao

That's what the escrow is for.

escrow is for scammers! i can prove these games are rigged right here right now will you pay me>>> no ,,,so go get a life!  

I believe you are going to scam me, so the escrow is working just fine. Great.

Now, I don't know which are "these" games you're talking about. I can only talk about ggdice, and I'm willing to pay you (or anyone else if interested) if you prove it's rigged. No need to keep repeating this and inflating the post count, let's settle this outside this thread.

\/\/hat constitutes proof?
so you are the operater of ggdice? how can i scam you by simply showing you how your site is rigged per higher bets changing the outcome resulting in lossing odds against the user?. It seems we have a bunch of you clowns following an industry standard of deception!    nobrainer=house always wins!

A proof is a sequence of steps that demonstrates that a given statement is true. You can learn more about it here and here.

You have a hard time reading posts, I hope you will read this one entirely. How you can scam me: 1) we define that I will give x BTC in case you prove ggdice is rigged, and that you will give me x BTC otherwise; 2) you never prove it, and never send the x BTC. Escrow solves this.

You won't be able to show that higher bets change the outcomes in any way because the bet amount is not taken into consideration when determining the outcome. The method for determining the results is described clearly on the site, and there are two links for checking the rolls yourself (I gave one earlier in this thread, you probably didn't manage to read the post).

Math proof is when you set it on 93 percent and you see three  reds pop up 'all the sudden when you bet bigger! >Google<: i don't get that second link?

I can reproduce in a movie realtime again and again how what you are saying is a bold face lie !!! I've been researching stuff like this for over 5 years!!!+) ROTFFLMAO you need to quit serving kool aid

[knowitnothing]

\/\/hat constitutes proof?
so you are the operater of ggdice? how can i scam you by simply showing you how your site is rigged per higher bets changing the outcome resulting in lossing odds against the user?. It seems we have a bunch of you clowns following an industry standard of deception!    nobrainer=house always wins!

A proof is a sequence of steps that demonstrates that a given statement is true. You can learn more about it here and here.

You have a hard time reading posts, I hope you will read this one entirely. How you can scam me: 1) we define that I will give x BTC in case you prove ggdice is rigged, and that you will give me x BTC otherwise; 2) you never prove it, and never send the x BTC. Escrow solves this.

You won't be able to show that higher bets change the outcomes in any way because the bet amount is not taken into consideration when determining the outcome. The method for determining the results is described clearly on the site, and there are two links for checking the rolls yourself (I gave one earlier in this thread, you probably didn't manage to read the post).

I can reproduce in a movie realtime again and again how what you are saying is a bold face lie !!! I've been researching stuff like this for over 5 years!!!+) ROTFFLMAO you need to quit serving kool aid

If it's still not clear to you, I'm talking specifically about ggdice. You can't be researching this specific service for over 5 years. I'm just giving you proper answers regarding this specific service. The deal I suggested earlier was about this specific service. Maybe if I write specific service once more you will notice that I'm talking about a single service, I can't possibly write something that covers every other service controlled by all kind of people.

[murraypaul]

Math proof is when you set it on 93 percent and you see three  reds pop up 'all the sudden when you bet bigger! >Google<: i don't get that second link?

All that proves is that you know nothing about statistics.
You are making yourself look silly with these posts.

[ASICSRUS]

\/\/hat constitutes proof?
so you are the operater of ggdice? how can i scam you by simply showing you how your site is rigged per higher bets changing the outcome resulting in lossing odds against the user?. It seems we have a bunch of you clowns following an industry standard of deception!    nobrainer=house always wins!

A proof is a sequence of steps that demonstrates that a given statement is true. You can learn more about it here and here.

You have a hard time reading posts, I hope you will read this one entirely. How you can scam me: 1) we define that I will give x BTC in case you prove ggdice is rigged, and that you will give me x BTC otherwise; 2) you never prove it, and never send the x BTC. Escrow solves this.

You won't be able to show that higher bets change the outcomes in any way because the bet amount is not taken into consideration when determining the outcome. The method for determining the results is described clearly on the site, and there are two links for checking the rolls yourself (I gave one earlier in this thread, you probably didn't manage to read the post).

I can reproduce in a movie realtime again and again how what you are saying is a bold face lie !!! I've been researching stuff like this for over 5 years!!!+) ROTFFLMAO you need to quit serving kool aid

If it's still not clear to you, I'm talking specifically about ggdice. You can't be researching this specific service for over 5 years. I'm just giving you proper answers regarding this specific service. The deal I suggested earlier was about this specific service. Maybe if I write specific service once more you will notice that I'm talking about a single service, I can't possibly write something that covers every other service controlled by all kind of people.

NO it's a "type" of site i've identified. Your site participates being part of this online dice scam cabal!!
#Your site clearly uperates like this>> higher bids cause a increase in reds i'm not making this up and ...hmm now when are you going to send that?LOL

[ASICSRUS]

Math proof is when you set it on 93 percent and you see three  reds pop up 'all the sudden when you bet bigger! >Google<: i don't get that second link?

All that proves is that you know nothing about statistics.
You are making yourself look silly with these posts.

$illy oh really i've been in the market for over 5 years!!! nice try!   lol

[murraypaul]

And, still, you sound like a bit of a fool who doesn't understand that any run of bad luck is possible in a faur system, and is refusing to even attempt to prove your allegations.

[ASICSRUS]

And, still, you sound like a bit of a fool who doesn't understand that any run of bad luck is possible in a faur system, and is refusing to even attempt to prove your allegations.

aye f00l::>>try learn how to spell LOL ~ i just came from Vegas where people have no concept of these kind of things...i'm just seeing all these scammers trying to say their sites are fair and when i play them impossible odds come magically only when i bet up bigger!

I AM OFFERING TO MAKE A MOVIE TO DEMONSTRATE THIS!!!!

[murraypaul]

And, still, you sound like a bit of a fool who doesn't understand that any run of bad luck is possible in a faur system, and is refusing to even attempt to prove your allegations.

aye f00l::>>try learn how to spell LOL

Ffs, how old are you?
With your grammar, you are going to criticise someone's spelling?

[ASICSRUS]

[-example-] = mathamatically impossible type string rolls(manual bets) >>



154097566   breakbeats   19:12   0.00001111   2.00000   <49.50   70.64   -0.00001111
154097533   breakbeats   19:12   0.00001111   2.00000   <49.50   56.35   -0.00001111
154097490   breakbeats   19:12   0.00001111   2.00000   <49.50   54.43   -0.00001111
154093358   breakbeats   19:10   0.00001111   2.00000   <49.50   94.07   -0.00001111
154093336   breakbeats   19:10   0.00001111   2.00000   <49.50   98.9   -0.00001111
154093289   breakbeats   19:10   0.00001111   2.00000   <49.50   68.38   -0.00001111
154093240   breakbeats   19:10   0.00001111   2.00000   <49.50   50.04   -0.00001111
154092876   breakbeats   19:10   0.00007778   2.00000   <49.50   83.04   -0.00007778
154092668   breakbeats   19:10   0.00000007   2.00000   <49.50   75.46   -0.00000007
154092588   breakbeats   19:09   0.00000007   2.00000   <49.50   76.16   -0.00000007
154092541   breakbeats   19:09   0.00000007   2.00000   <49.50   93.06   -0.00000007

[murraypaul]

(Can't resist noticing the spelling error there)

That isn't a mathematically impossible string of results.
There is no such thing as a mathematically impossible string of results, only increasingly unlikely ones.
The chance of losing 11 50/50 bets in a row is 1 in 2048.
Slightly more likely than that for you because of the house edge.

Edit:
If you make 100 coin flips, you have a 1 in 45 chance of getting 11 losses in a row, and the expected number of losses in a row would be just under 6: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=probability+of+11+heads+in+a+row+with+100+coin+flips
If you make 1000 coin flips, you have a ~1 in 5 chance of getting 11 losses in a row, and the expected number of losses in a row would be just over 9: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=probability+of+11+heads+in+a+row+with+1000+coin+flips

[knowitnothing]

Your site participates being part of this online dice scam cabal!!
#Your site clearly uperates like this>> higher bids cause a increase in reds i'm not making this up and ...hmm now when are you going to send that?LOL

The deal is still available, we define some BTC amount for this and someone escrows it. Then you prove ggdice is a scam and you get it all. I'm still waiting for the PM and/or the "proof" you apparently got already. Here's how a roll is ultimately performed (taken directly from the site in question):

"""
The result, r, of each roll is an integer in the range [0, 1000000). The value of r is determined by first calculating the SHA3-256 (Keccak) digest, d, of the message: secret seed + ":" + nonce + ":" user seed. Finally we consider the integer value of d, i, and r=i%1000000.
"""

So the amount you bet is not taken into account. If it were, you wouldn't be able to check the rolls. To rephrase what is written above: the odds and amount for a bet are not taken into consideration, the only thing that matters are the server seed (secret), the nonce, and your user seed. Is that clear ? Can you disprove that ?

I'm not even questioning whether you're making this up or not, you're just not showing what you got regarding ggdice. See also the pastebin link I gave earlier regarding your bets. If you decide to reply again, can you please add something to the discussion ? Garbage and funny faces do not count.

Lastly, see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=283334.msg3107720#msg3107720 for both 21 loses in a row, and 21 wins in a row. Is the former impossible and the later not ?

[imagereply]

And, still, you sound like a bit of a fool who doesn't understand that any run of bad luck is possible in a faur system, and is refusing to even attempt to prove your allegations.

aye f00l::>>try learn how to spell LOL ~ i just came from Vegas where people have no concept of these kind of things...i'm just seeing all these scammers trying to say their sites are fair and when i play them impossible odds come magically only when i bet up bigger!

I AM OFFERING TO MAKE A MOVIE TO DEMONSTRATE THIS!!!!

http://www.mancards.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/13021377996390_That-awkward-moment-when-you-realize-the-person-youre-talking-to-is-a-complete-idiot.png

[ASICSRUS]

That isn't a mathematically impossible string of results.
There is no such thing as a mathematically impossible string of results, only increasingly unlikely ones.

yes but combined with the same pattern appearing again and again only when higher bets are placed, i'm a scientist brah!  ez

[ASICSRUS]

your server seed (secret) is the key! How ever you do it the result is a mechanism that triggers increase RED rolls. I even went back and tested it again. Now how bout we bump this up to 10BTC since you are sooo sure of yourself!  LMAO

[knowitnothing]

your server seed (secret) is the key! How ever you do it the result is a mechanism that triggers increase RED rolls. I even went back and tested it again. Now how bout we bump this up to 10BTC since you are sooo sure of yourself! 

Send me a PM with a bitcoin address you own with the amount you want to put into this, also sign some message using that address and send it there. Then I will contact someone to escrow this.

[knowitnothing]

If the player signs the bet, then the casino can prove the game was fair.

Not necessarily.  They would be proving an individual roll of the dice is fair, not their entire system.  Once you submit your seed I believe everything is deterministic from there.  If that is the case they know if you won or lost before you know.  If you have a big win coming all they need to do is make your connection hang.  

Only the rolled number is deterministic since the player can usually control the win chance, bet amount, and to roll higher than a number or lower than a number. The system can't know which decisions the player will take. For your last point, that depends on how a given system works. If the rolls are based on a server seed, user seed and a nonce, then hanging the connection doesn't increment the nonce and the user can simply remake the bet and get his big win.

[ASICSRUS]

your server seed (secret) is the key! How ever you do it the result is a mechanism that triggers increase RED rolls. I even went back and tested it again. Now how bout we bump this up to 10BTC since you are sooo sure of yourself!

Send me a PM with a bitcoin address you own with the amount you want to put into this, also sign some message using that address and send it there. Then I will contact someone to escrow this.

chuck that i already won this, what the hell we need escrow for?   i'll bet 100BTC i can show everyone how the increase from low to higher bet will produce higher % occurance of  REDS !!!!   easyyyyy

[imagereply]

your server seed (secret) is the key! How ever you do it the result is a mechanism that triggers increase RED rolls. I even went back and tested it again. Now how bout we bump this up to 10BTC since you are sooo sure of yourself!

Send me a PM with a bitcoin address you own with the amount you want to put into this, also sign some message using that address and send it there. Then I will contact someone to escrow this.

chuck that i already won this, what the hell we need escrow for?   i'll bet 100BTC i can show everyone how the increase from low to higher bet will produce higher % occurance of  REDS !!!!   easyyyyy

http://subspecies.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/james-randi-evidence-or-gtfo.jpg

[ASICSRUS]

If the player signs the bet, then the casino can prove the game was fair.

Not necessarily.  They would be proving an individual roll of the dice is fair, not their entire system.  Once you submit your seed I believe everything is deterministic from there.  If that is the case they know if you won or lost before you know.  If you have a big win coming all they need to do is make your connection hang.  

yes the "connection hang" issue is def something that i've been seeing connected with this form of manipulation...

[ASICSRUS]

your server seed (secret) is the key! How ever you do it the result is a mechanism that triggers increase RED rolls. I even went back and tested it again. Now how bout we bump this up to 10BTC since you are sooo sure of yourself!

Send me a PM with a bitcoin address you own with the amount you want to put into this, also sign some message using that address and send it there. Then I will contact someone to escrow this.

chuck that i already won this, what the hell we need escrow for?   i'll bet 100BTC i can show everyone how the increase from low to higher bet will produce higher % occurance of  REDS !!!!   easyyyyy

you in on this movie pooL? haaaa  how much BTC you got to lose?

[imagereply]

your server seed (secret) is the key! How ever you do it the result is a mechanism that triggers increase RED rolls. I even went back and tested it again. Now how bout we bump this up to 10BTC since you are sooo sure of yourself!

Send me a PM with a bitcoin address you own with the amount you want to put into this, also sign some message using that address and send it there. Then I will contact someone to escrow this.

chuck that i already won this, what the hell we need escrow for?   i'll bet 100BTC i can show everyone how the increase from low to higher bet will produce higher % occurance of  REDS !!!!   easyyyyy

http://subspecies.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/james-randi-evidence-or-gtfo.jpg

you in on this movie pooL? haaaa  how much BTC you got to lose?

http://americanbullion.com/images/gold-bars_5.jpg

[freethink2013]

@ASICSRUS

If you are seeing a pattern and not profiting from it then you are an idiot.

Them ripping you off or fixing things is far less likely than their "random" being nothing more than a pattern - an elaborate one but a pattern nonetheless. Being random is difficult and imho a lot of the time in the current btc gambling goldrush "provably fair" is actually pushing what should be random into a straight jacket that decreases randomization rather than increases it.

Also it's fucking dice! ffs. Try a game of skill

[imagereply]

@ASICSRUS

If you are seeing a pattern and not profiting from it then you are an idiot.

http://rantsofasassystew.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Breaking_News.jpg

[Damnsammit]

Also it's fucking dice! ffs. Try a game of skill

But I heard if I rolled these here dice, then I would never have to work a day in my life...

$$$ [:-:]

[ASICSRUS]

@ASICSRUS

If you are seeing a pattern and not profiting from it then you are an idiot.

Them ripping you off or fixing things is far less likely than their "random" being nothing more than a pattern - an elaborate one but a pattern nonetheless. Being random is difficult and imho a lot of the time in the current btc gambling goldrush "provably fair" is actually pushing what should be random into a straight jacket that decreases randomization rather than increases it.

Also it's fucking dice! ffs. Try a game of skill

yes my friend: a pattern of false representation!w/Displaying fake odds! 

[freethink2013]

@ASICSRUS

If you are seeing a pattern and not profiting from it then you are an idiot.

Them ripping you off or fixing things is far less likely than their "random" being nothing more than a pattern - an elaborate one but a pattern nonetheless. Being random is difficult and imho a lot of the time in the current btc gambling goldrush "provably fair" is actually pushing what should be random into a straight jacket that decreases randomization rather than increases it.

Also it's fucking dice! ffs. Try a game of skill

yes my friend: a pattern of false representation!w/Displaying fake odds! 

You've said you've identified a pattern. In layman's terms you know ahead of time what dice will be rolled so why are you still losing?

[imagereply]

@ASICSRUS

If you are seeing a pattern and not profiting from it then you are an idiot.

Them ripping you off or fixing things is far less likely than their "random" being nothing more than a pattern - an elaborate one but a pattern nonetheless. Being random is difficult and imho a lot of the time in the current btc gambling goldrush "provably fair" is actually pushing what should be random into a straight jacket that decreases randomization rather than increases it.

Also it's fucking dice! ffs. Try a game of skill

yes my friend: a pattern of false representation!w/Displaying fake odds! 

http://i.qkme.me/3qz98d.jpg

[ASICSRUS]

@ASICSRUS

If you are seeing a pattern and not profiting from it then you are an idiot.

Them ripping you off or fixing things is far less likely than their "random" being nothing more than a pattern - an elaborate one but a pattern nonetheless. Being random is difficult and imho a lot of the time in the current btc gambling goldrush "provably fair" is actually pushing what should be random into a straight jacket that decreases randomization rather than increases it.

Also it's fucking dice! ffs. Try a game of skill

yes my friend: a pattern of false representation!w/Displaying fake odds!  

You've said you've identified a pattern. In layman's terms you know ahead of time what dice will be rolled so why are you still losing?

it's called a: "seed override" type mechanism that insures user loss!!!  

[ASICSRUS]

@ASICSRUS

If you are seeing a pattern and not profiting from it then you are an idiot.

Them ripping you off or fixing things is far less likely than their "random" being nothing more than a pattern - an elaborate one but a pattern nonetheless. Being random is difficult and imho a lot of the time in the current btc gambling goldrush "provably fair" is actually pushing what should be random into a straight jacket that decreases randomization rather than increases it.

Also it's fucking dice! ffs. Try a game of skill

yes my friend: a pattern of false representation!w/Displaying fake odds!  

omg is this nitwit/\ ROTFLMFAOO

[imagereply]

@ASICSRUS

If you are seeing a pattern and not profiting from it then you are an idiot.

Them ripping you off or fixing things is far less likely than their "random" being nothing more than a pattern - an elaborate one but a pattern nonetheless. Being random is difficult and imho a lot of the time in the current btc gambling goldrush "provably fair" is actually pushing what should be random into a straight jacket that decreases randomization rather than increases it.

Also it's fucking dice! ffs. Try a game of skill

yes my friend: a pattern of false representation!w/Displaying fake odds!  

You've said you've identified a pattern. In layman's terms you know ahead of time what dice will be rolled so why are you still losing?

it's called a: "seed override" type mechanism that insures user loss!!!  

http://a.wattpad.net/cover/1887436-256-k264602.jpg

[lucasjkr]

I have real issue with provably fair. I'm not a mathematician or a programmer though...

But with any of the dice games, how can you tell if the winning seed was generated before or after your bet and roll? Or how can you tell if the first seed generated (which might have been a win) wasn't discarded and regenerated until your roll would create a loss instead ?  As long as in the long term the payout matches what the house odds claim to be, how would you tell that that the long odd bets were performing as promised? If the stated odds are 1 in 1000, but after 200,000 roles, only 900 wins occurred , how would one know if that was the luck of the house, or a random number generator  or other logic wasn't subtly altered to benefit the house?

[ASICSRUS]

I have real issue with provably fair. I'm not a mathematician or a programmer though...

But with any of the dice games, how can you tell if the winning seed was generated before or after your bet and roll? Or how can you tell if the first seed generated (which might have been a win) wasn't discarded and regenerated until your roll would create a loss instead ?  As long as in the long term the payout matches what the house odds claim to be, how would you tell that that the long odd bets were performing as promised? If the stated odds are 1 in 1000, but after 200,000 roles, only 900 wins occurred , how would one know if that was the luck of the house, or a random number generator  or other logic wasn't subtly altered to benefit the house?

i can tell these games are rigged after playing many many hours!   =nobrainer

[freethink2013]

@ASICSRUS

If you are seeing a pattern and not profiting from it then you are an idiot.

Them ripping you off or fixing things is far less likely than their "random" being nothing more than a pattern - an elaborate one but a pattern nonetheless. Being random is difficult and imho a lot of the time in the current btc gambling goldrush "provably fair" is actually pushing what should be random into a straight jacket that decreases randomization rather than increases it.

Also it's fucking dice! ffs. Try a game of skill

yes my friend: a pattern of false representation!w/Displaying fake odds!  

You've said you've identified a pattern. In layman's terms you know ahead of time what dice will be rolled so why are you still losing?

it's called a: "seed override" type mechanism that insures user loss!!!  

so you are saying they run this predictable 'random' pattern except when you put a bet on. when that happens then they do whatever it takes to make sure you lose.

Not against you at all but you aren't employing joined up thinking. Maybe that's because you are so angry at being ripped off or whatever but either way all you've done is advertise the site you've been trying to take down as having some sort of exploitable flaw worth investigating. I hope you work for them as all you've done is them a favor.

[Munouhapi]

I have real issue with provably fair. I'm not a mathematician or a programmer though...

But with any of the dice games, how can you tell if the winning seed was generated before or after your bet and roll? Or how can you tell if the first seed generated (which might have been a win) wasn't discarded and regenerated until your roll would create a loss instead ?  As long as in the long term the payout matches what the house odds claim to be, how would you tell that that the long odd bets were performing as promised? If the stated odds are 1 in 1000, but after 200,000 roles, only 900 wins occurred , how would one know if that was the luck of the house, or a random number generator  or other logic wasn't subtly altered to benefit the house?

i can tell these games are rigged after playing many many hours!   =nobrainer

still trolling?

[knowitnothing]

I have real issue with provably fair. I'm not a mathematician or a programmer though...

But with any of the dice games, how can you tell if the winning seed was generated before or after your bet and roll? Or how can you tell if the first seed generated (which might have been a win) wasn't discarded and regenerated until your roll would create a loss instead ?  As long as in the long term the payout matches what the house odds claim to be, how would you tell that that the long odd bets were performing as promised? If the stated odds are 1 in 1000, but after 200,000 roles, only 900 wins occurred , how would one know if that was the luck of the house, or a random number generator  or other logic wasn't subtly altered to benefit the house?

The first thing you can do when you visit any site that is actually provably fair is check for your user seed and the hash of the secret seed. If you have this information you can be sure the seed was generated before any roll, so you can be sure the situation you describe cannot happen. You should also be able to set your own user seed AFTER the system has picked a secret seed. Please take some time to understand how it works, and remember that each site employs its own custom method.

Basically, a secret seed is generated,  then the hash of this secret seed is shown, then a user picks its own seed. If the secret seed is modified during the rolls, then when you ask to reveal it you won't be able get the same hash you received earlier. So the system cannot change this seed. If the user seed is changed during the rolls, then the results you get won't match the ones you can generate after the secret seed is released. So the system cannot change this seed either. If you modify any of them for any of the rolls, you won't be able to verify the results either. If you understand all of this, can you explain how the situation you describe is possible ?

[ASICSRUS]

@ASICSRUS

If you are seeing a pattern and not profiting from it then you are an idiot.

Them ripping you off or fixing things is far less likely than their "random" being nothing more than a pattern - an elaborate one but a pattern nonetheless. Being random is difficult and imho a lot of the time in the current btc gambling goldrush "provably fair" is actually pushing what should be random into a straight jacket that decreases randomization rather than increases it.

Also it's fucking dice! ffs. Try a game of skill

yes my friend: a pattern of false representation!w/Displaying fake odds!  

You've said you've identified a pattern. In layman's terms you know ahead of time what dice will be rolled so why are you still losing?

it's called a: "seed override" type mechanism that insures user loss!!!  

so you are saying they run this predictable 'random' pattern except when you put a bet on. when that happens then they do whatever it takes to make sure you lose.

Not against you at all but you aren't employing joined up thinking. Maybe that's because you are so angry at being ripped off or whatever but either way all you've done is advertise the site you've been trying to take down as having some sort of exploitable flaw worth investigating. I hope you work for them as all you've done is them a favor.

no there are a few on my "hit list" ~the ones that are blatant about this activity!

[ASICSRUS]

I have real issue with provably fair. I'm not a mathematician or a programmer though...

But with any of the dice games, how can you tell if the winning seed was generated before or after your bet and roll? Or how can you tell if the first seed generated (which might have been a win) wasn't discarded and regenerated until your roll would create a loss instead ?  As long as in the long term the payout matches what the house odds claim to be, how would you tell that that the long odd bets were performing as promised? If the stated odds are 1 in 1000, but after 200,000 roles, only 900 wins occurred , how would one know if that was the luck of the house, or a random number generator  or other logic wasn't subtly altered to benefit the house?

The first thing you can do when you visit any site that is actually provably fair is check for your user seed and the hash of the secret seed. If you have this information you can be sure the seed was generated before any roll, so you can be sure the situation you describe cannot happen. You should also be able to set your own user seed AFTER the system has picked a secret seed. Please take some time to understand how it works, and remember that each site employs its own custom method.

Basically, a secret seed is generated,  then the hash of this secret seed is shown, then a user picks its own seed. If the secret seed is modified during the rolls, then when you ask to reveal it you won't be able get the same hash you received earlier. So the system cannot change this seed. If the user seed is changed during the rolls, then the results you get won't match the ones you can generate after the secret seed is released. So the system cannot change this seed either. If you modify any of them for any of the rolls, you won't be able to verify the results either. If you understand all of this, can you explain how the situation you describe is possible ?

7his secret seed isn't "shown"(made public?) for 24hrs or,,, umm how long for your site?

However you wanna describe it the result is if you are betting smallish and you raise the bet without changing ANYTHING else you will indeed witness an increase number of RED!(kill switch)    hmmm what a mystery!!!
>>this is comical! 10BTC for the indepth youtube movie + i will promo your site for FREE!(=$10,000USD)

 
easyyyy

[lucasjkr]

I have real issue with provably fair. I'm not a mathematician or a programmer though...

But with any of the dice games, how can you tell if the winning seed was generated before or after your bet and roll? Or how can you tell if the first seed generated (which might have been a win) wasn't discarded and regenerated until your roll would create a loss instead ?  As long as in the long term the payout matches what the house odds claim to be, how would you tell that that the long odd bets were performing as promised? If the stated odds are 1 in 1000, but after 200,000 roles, only 900 wins occurred , how would one know if that was the luck of the house, or a random number generator  or other logic wasn't subtly altered to benefit the house?

The first thing you can do when you visit any site that is actually provably fair is check for your user seed and the hash of the secret seed. If you have this information you can be sure the seed was generated before any roll, so you can be sure the situation you describe cannot happen. You should also be able to set your own user seed AFTER the system has picked a secret seed. Please take some time to understand how it works, and remember that each site employs its own custom method.

Basically, a secret seed is generated,  then the hash of this secret seed is shown, then a user picks its own seed. If the secret seed is modified during the rolls, then when you ask to reveal it you won't be able get the same hash you received earlier. So the system cannot change this seed. If the user seed is changed during the rolls, then the results you get won't match the ones you can generate after the secret seed is released. So the system cannot change this seed either. If you modify any of them for any of the rolls, you won't be able to verify the results either. If you understand all of this, can you explain how the situation you describe is possible ?

OK.

So, the site generates its winning seed, sends it through a hash generator and shows you the hash? You then "roll" your dice, where a new number is generated. The system then shows you the original number so you can compare?

If the roll is done via javascript, the client generate 10,000 rolls, send the results through the same hash function and discard 9,999 of the non-winning results, no? So client side wouldn't seem to work.

So, if its done on the server side - you see the hash you're aiming for, the server the makes 50 dice "rolls" and then returns to you one of the losing rolls. It doesn't happen everytime. Just enough to add, say, another 1 or 2% to the house odds.

Or am I missing a piece somewhere?

[knowitnothing]

I have real issue with provably fair. I'm not a mathematician or a programmer though...

But with any of the dice games, how can you tell if the winning seed was generated before or after your bet and roll? Or how can you tell if the first seed generated (which might have been a win) wasn't discarded and regenerated until your roll would create a loss instead ?  As long as in the long term the payout matches what the house odds claim to be, how would you tell that that the long odd bets were performing as promised? If the stated odds are 1 in 1000, but after 200,000 roles, only 900 wins occurred , how would one know if that was the luck of the house, or a random number generator  or other logic wasn't subtly altered to benefit the house?

The first thing you can do when you visit any site that is actually provably fair is check for your user seed and the hash of the secret seed. If you have this information you can be sure the seed was generated before any roll, so you can be sure the situation you describe cannot happen. You should also be able to set your own user seed AFTER the system has picked a secret seed. Please take some time to understand how it works, and remember that each site employs its own custom method.

Basically, a secret seed is generated,  then the hash of this secret seed is shown, then a user picks its own seed. If the secret seed is modified during the rolls, then when you ask to reveal it you won't be able get the same hash you received earlier. So the system cannot change this seed. If the user seed is changed during the rolls, then the results you get won't match the ones you can generate after the secret seed is released. So the system cannot change this seed either. If you modify any of them for any of the rolls, you won't be able to verify the results either. If you understand all of this, can you explain how the situation you describe is possible ?

OK.

So, the site generates its winning seed, sends it through a hash generator and shows you the hash? You then "roll" your dice, where a new number is generated. The system then shows you the original number so you can compare?

If the roll is done via javascript, the client generate 10,000 rolls, send the results through the same hash function and discard 9,999 of the non-winning results, no? So client side wouldn't seem to work.

So, if its done on the server side - you see the hash you're aiming for, the server the makes 50 dice "rolls" and then returns to you one of the losing rolls. It doesn't happen everytime. Just enough to add, say, another 1 or 2% to the house odds.

Or am I missing a piece somewhere?

First of all there is no thing called "winning seed", it is just a secret seed. To describe this concretely, I will use the method employed by ggdice.

So let's say this secret seed is "ABC", and we will use SHA3-256. So the hash you would get would be e1629b9dda060bb30c7908346f6af189c16773fa148d3366701fbaa35d54f3c8 (you can check this using

Code:

python2.7 -c "import keccak; print(keccak.sha3_256('ABC').hexdigest())"

). Now, after you know this information, you send your seed, let's say it is "DEF". Now when you do a roll, there is also a thing called nonce which starts at 1 and is incremented after each bet.

All the client does is ask the server for a roll at a given win chance, with a certain amount, and whether you will believe the result will be greater or lower than the rolled number. The server knows the current seeds for the user as well the nonce. So for your first roll, the server concatenates the secret seed ABC, the nonce 1, and the user seed DEF. Then it performs the equivalent to

Code:

python2.7 -c "import keccak; print(int(keccak.sha3_256('ABC:1:DEF').hexdigest(), 16) % 1000000)"

. For the first roll, this results in the number 439654, displayed as "43.9654". For your second roll, the same is done using nonce 2, which gives 51395. And so on.

The roll cannot be done in the client because you do not have access to the secret seed yet. Now, when you reveal the secret (whenever you want to), you get the value 'ABC'. If you apply the same hashing function as before, you should get e1629b9dda060bb30c7908346f6af189c16773fa148d3366701fbaa35d54f3c8 that was revealed earlier to you. So now you can regenerate all the rolls, by incrementing the nonce starting from 1 with the now known secret seed. It should be clear that the system cannot skip rolls, because it wouldn't match what you can now verify. Is this clear ?

[knowitnothing]

Is this clear ?

The purpose of the nonce is not clear, it appears to be just part of the seed.  It is also not clear if the user has access to all the nonce's of all their rolls.  Maybe your explanation is just not complete but it is not proof of fairness the way you described it.  If the system is provable fair trying to explaining all this so the average user would understand is extremely difficult.  

If there was no nonce then you would be always applying the hashing function over the same input, which would always give the same output. So the nonce's purpose is to vary the rolled numbers.

The user always knows the current nonce, it is displayed in the user interface and it is just a incrementing counter. Can you please tell why do you think this is not provably fair ?

[knowitnothing]

Is this clear ?

The purpose of the nonce is not clear, it appears to be just part of the seed.  It is also not clear if the user has access to all the nonce's of all their rolls.  Maybe your explanation is just not complete but it is not proof of fairness the way you described it.  If the system is provable fair trying to explaining all this so the average user would understand is extremely difficult.  

If there is no nonce then you would be always applying the hashing function over the same input, which would always give the same output. So the nonce's purpose is to vary the rolled numbers.

The user always knows the current nonce, it is displayed in the user interface and it is just a incrementing counter. Can you please tell why do you think this is not provably fair ?

I don't understand.  If the seed changes for each roll you are not hashing the same input.  I don't see how the nonce is separate from the seed since the server controls both and just combines them.  if the server does not like the roll can't they just stall the connection and force the user to start over?  Even if the nonce was kept the same for the next roll the wouldn't the server seed be different?  Suppose the connection legitimately stalls during a roll?  Do you go back a recreate that roll?  

The seeds never change at ggdice, except when the user asks to. Each user has their own seeds.

Now supposing your connection is dropped before placing a bet, then the nonce isn't incremented. This means you can just reconnect and submit the same bet, and you will get the result that you would've got earlier if you were connected.

[knowitnothing]

Is this clear ?

The purpose of the nonce is not clear, it appears to be just part of the seed.  It is also not clear if the user has access to all the nonce's of all their rolls.  Maybe your explanation is just not complete but it is not proof of fairness the way you described it.  If the system is provable fair trying to explaining all this so the average user would understand is extremely difficult.  

If there is no nonce then you would be always applying the hashing function over the same input, which would always give the same output. So the nonce's purpose is to vary the rolled numbers.

The user always knows the current nonce, it is displayed in the user interface and it is just a incrementing counter. Can you please tell why do you think this is not provably fair ?

I don't understand.  If the seed changes for each roll you are not hashing the same input.  I don't see how the nonce is separate from the seed since the server controls both and just combines them.  if the server does not like the roll can't they just stall the connection and force the user to start over?  Even if the nonce was kept the same for the next roll the wouldn't the server seed be different?  Suppose the connection legitimately stalls during a roll?  Do you go back a recreate that roll?  

The seeds never change at ggdice, except when the user asks to. Each user has their own seeds.

Now supposing your connection is dropped before placing a bet, then the nonce isn't incremented. This means you can just reconnect and submit the same bet, and you will get the result that you would've got earlier if you were connected.

Sorry, but I still don't understand your explanation.  If the server seed never changes you can't give it to the user even after a bet because the user would have the server seed, the nonce, and their own seed so the user could determine the outcome of the next roll.

If the user chooses to reveal the secret seed, then a new one is generated for the subsequent bets. So it's ok to show the previous one used for the previous bets.

[bee7]

How it becomes difficult some times when kids are not studying math in the school

[knowitnothing]

Under this scheme each user would be required to provide a new seed for each and every roll.  If some users did not change their seed from roll to roll then the server could determine the outcome several rolls in the future (in those specific cases) and simply cut that user off, shut down the server, etc.  Any system where the server can determine future rolls in a deterministic way, even in a small fractions of the plays, is not provably fair because you cannot force the casino to keep playing.

It's getting repetitive now, we're stuck in a loop it seems.

Don't you understand that the only thing the server can determine for each bet is the rolled number ? The user decides the odds, and all the other settings. So the server cannot know whether the future rolls will win or not (so there is no reason to shutdown the server, cut that user off, etc) -- just knowing the rolls is not enough.

Please think about it for a moment. Also rethink on what you're calling provably fair.

[knowitnothing]

Under this scheme each user would be required to provide a new seed for each and every roll.  If some users did not change their seed from roll to roll then the server could determine the outcome several rolls in the future (in those specific cases) and simply cut that user off, shut down the server, etc.  Any system where the server can determine future rolls in a deterministic way, even in a small fractions of the plays, is not provably fair because you cannot force the casino to keep playing.

It's getting repetitive now, we're stuck in a loop it seems.

Don't you understand that the only thing the server can determine for each bet is the rolled number ? The user decides the odds, and all the other settings. So the server cannot know whether the future rolls will win or not (so there is no reason to shutdown the server, cut that user off, etc) -- just knowing the rolls is not enough.

Please think about it for a moment. Also rethink on what you're calling provably fair.

I think you misunderstand the term "provably fair."  The burden is on the casino to prove their entire operation is fair, not just one individual roll or one subset of rolls.  The burden to be provably fair is very high.

The scenario is this, the server looks for patterns and takes advantage of those patterns.  If 0.1% of the users leave their settings in place (odds, seed, etc.) from roll to roll then in 0.1% of cases the casino is pretty sure what the next roll will be.  For example, a users keeps their settings the same for 20 rolls so the casino is pretty sure what the parameters will be for roll 21 will be.  The user has to be forced to change their settings in some way for every roll (or it has to be changed in some way that the server cannot control and the user can verify afterwards).    

I'm sorry, but I think it's someone else that is confused here. Provably fair basically means you have enough information right now that you can later use to verify that all the rolls should have occurred exactly as they occurred (add to that what we already discussed about server seed, user seed, etc). You just want the site's operator to act in a fair way, which you obviously wouldn't believe if I simply said that I'm operating in a fair way (right ?).

The pattern situation you describe is indeed a possible situation, but that unfortunately doesn't remove the provably fair status. But the big issue with this conspiracy theory is that it takes a single user to take the entire bankroll if such thing is in place. The users would start noticing how every default seed pair are behaving, and then take advantage of that to win all the bankroll. Forcing some kind of change (please be more specific) for every roll doesn't fully eliminate that, and at the same time it makes much harder for the player to verify the provably fair status.

[dooglus]

Under this scheme each user would be required to provide a new seed for each and every roll.  If some users did not change their seed from roll to roll then the server could determine the outcome several rolls in the future (in those specific cases) and simply cut that user off, shut down the server, etc.  Any system where the server can determine future rolls in a deterministic way, even in a small fractions of the plays, is not provably fair because you cannot force the casino to keep playing.  

You can never force the casino to keep playing.  You also can't force them to actually make withdrawals when players win.  There's a limit to how far provably fair can go.

If a casino shuts down because you're about to make have a big win then something is clearly wrong.  The casino should operate within their bankroll and be able to pay out any bet they offer, so cheating the player isn't of interest to them.  It doesn't take much to get a bad reputation and with so much competition, players will just go somewhere else.

Provable fairness generally simply means that there's no way the house can influence the outcome of the player's bets.  It's usually implemented as:

1) server picks server seed
2) server displays hash of server seed
3) user picks client seed
4) play happens
5) server reveals server seed
6) player verifies that play happened according to server and client seed

1 happening before 3 makes sure the server can't influence the outcome, because the client seed changes everything
2 makes sure the server can't change its seed after picking it

Step 4 can be a single roll, like at primedice, or multiple rolls, like at coinroll, just-dice, ggdice, and probably many more.  If it's multiple rolls, then a nonce is used which changes for each roll in a predictable way, so that we can have multiple unpredictable outcomes for a single seed pair.

The fact that the server knows the player's next thousand outcomes doesn't change anything unless the server does something obvious like blocking the player's account before he's about to have a big win.


My attention was drawn to this thread after a pleasing discussion of the merits of provable fairness on the Just-Dice trollbox:

20:17:13 (194226) <mistymountain> you fuck me this round doog what did you just switch it?
20:17:52 (194226) <mistymountain> bullshit odds went up or something
20:18:18 (194226) <mistymountain> gmre changes uncresd reds i'm not dumb
20:18:38 (194226) <mistymountain> so fucked
20:19:21 (194226) <mistymountain> cherry pick times when its better hmmm~semon seed time lol]
20:19:28 (143789) <dammmmit> lol misty sounds so hard like ASICSRUS
20:19:51 (194226) <mistymountain> don't start w.the provably fair nonsense omg
20:20:34 (194226) <mistymountain> i'll move this to the tgread its cool
20:20:49 (194226) <mistymountain> nitcoin talk
20:21:14 (194226) <mistymountain> 91 percent not
20:21:31 (1) <dooglus> misty: if you calm down a little I'm sure we can get to the bottom of this
20:21:51 (194226) <mistymountain> im at bottom here
20:22:24 (143789) <dammmmit> MISTY I NEED TO KNOW, ARE YOU ASICSRUS ON BITCOINTALK?
20:22:51 (194226) <mistymountain> ok i had a bad feeling should have stopped
20:23:10 (194226) <mistymountain> Big Baller ihub
20:23:28 (2) <Deb> sup misty?
20:24:15 (194226) <mistymountain> it's cool i guess it appears something chaned monkeys behind the curtain?lol
20:25:20 (2) <Deb> misty you can check that the rolls were fair
20:26:00 (194226) <mistymountain> not even i'll post it on the board you turkey
20:26:17 (2) <Deb> who is a turkey misty?
20:26:48 (194226) <mistymountain> you all are turkeys in my book gooble gooble
20:27:15 (2) <Deb> really misty
20:27:36 (194226) <mistymountain> doog is the turkey=)
20:28:04 (194226) <mistymountain> it seemed egit but yeah all in bitches
20:28:05 (2) <Deb> well, at times i might agree misty, but never about math or fairness he'll always win there
20:28:11 (143789) <dammmmit> hey misty want a 0.02 donation?
20:28:35 (194226) <mistymountain> ok oll burn it lol
20:28:35 (193176) <chester> hi mistyASICS
20:28:49 (194226) <mistymountain> Baller to you
20:28:54 (1532) <satoshi> misty why do you even gamble
20:29:28 (194226) <mistymountain> [1ERmwC46]<dammmmit>turkey
20:30:33 (194226) <mistymountain> wjat are you smoking fool
20:31:33 (194226) <mistymountain> goog you nigged me!!!
20:33:19 (194226) <mistymountain> Deb fucking cunt gtfo no bitches up in here y0

He stopped talking at that point.  I think maybe Deb muted him.  Not sure which of his last two lines pushed her over the edge.

[b!z]

How it becomes difficult some times when kids are not studying math in the school

I find it very peculiar that they don't understand it is nearly impossible for the casino to rig the results.

[tonino]

I find it very peculiar that they don't understand it is nearly impossible for the casino to rig the results.

the "nearly" would tell me that it is not provably fair and the casino has a chance to rig the results.
to be frank I am not an expert of the provably fair thingy. but I fully understand what knowitnothing is saying and it makes a lot of sense to me. what I mean is, that if there is a 100% provably fair option why not implement it? because it is to complicated? or there is no need to implement it because the players are not asking for it? IMHO the house/casino should implement the 100% provably fair option if it exists.

[knowitnothing]

Each and every roll has to have some kind of external input that the casino cannot predict, even if the user is "lazy" and leaves the same settings in place.  I believe forcing the user to change their seed every time would work.

Changing the user seed every time doesn't solve anything, it just complicates the situation for the user to check for provably fair results (no need to make up what you believe this is, this has been discussed several times in this same forum, even outside this thread). Never forget that the server is ultimately responsible for reporting back the results.

Suppose you're changing the user seed before every bet. The system can just "shutdown the server, disconnect the user, etc" (I forgot the exact words you used) after it obtains the outcome of a bet, but before it sends back to the user. When the system "resumes its operation", it can just make up some excuse. Since the user seed is always changing, the earlier one you used would've changed now and the new bet will produce a different result (hopefully one that doesn't make the server shutdown, disconnect the user, etc). If you are not keeping track of every user seed change (lazy user as you say), you won't even know which seeds you used and you might not be able to check the results later.

if there is a 100% provably fair option why not implement it? because it is to complicated? or there is no need to implement it because the players are not asking for it? IMHO the house/casino should implement the 100% provably fair option if it exists.

First we need to understand which part of it is not provably fair, otherwise there is no hope to implement it. What I see some people suggesting is not provably fair (like using, or claiming to use, an external service), and that's why you won't see any of the current provably fair games implementing that.

[Rannasha]

I find it very peculiar that they don't understand it is nearly impossible for the casino to rig the results.

the "nearly" would tell me that it is not provably fair and the casino has a chance to rig the results.
to be frank I am not an expert of the provably fair thingy. but I fully understand what knowitnothing is saying and it makes a lot of sense to me. what I mean is, that if there is a 100% provably fair option why not implement it? because it is to complicated? or there is no need to implement it because the players are not asking for it? IMHO the house/casino should implement the 100% provably fair option if it exists.

It depends on what you consider "100% provably fair".

The common definition (in BTC-gambling-land) of provably fair is that if the server claims you rolled (for example) 12345 as your lucky number, that this number was actually generated in the way that was advertised and that it wasn't changed after the fact to make sure you'd lose.

What it doesn't mean, and what this thread was originally about, is that the server can't change the parameters of the bet afterwards. If I bet 1 BTC at 50% odds, a malicious website may change this bet into a 10 BTC bet at 1% odds after having determined that this would be a losing roll for me. The current provably fair schemes don't prevent this and it is possible for a casino website to be provably fair (in the sense that the numbers it rolls for its users are indeed what it claims), but still cheat their users (by changing bet-size / odds after the roll was submitted).

Then again, this type of cheating is very obvious as a user would immediately spot things like changed bet-size or odds. The type of cheating prevented by the provably fair scheme is much, much harder to detect.

In the end, when you deposit money to play at an online casino (or any other web-service for that matter), you're trusting the operator not to run with your money. So no matter of how many fancy mathematical algorithms are implemented, some level of trust is still required.

[lucasjkr]

I'm apparently dumb as a doornail, because I still don't understand how you can be assured that cheating can't / won't occur.

My understanding is that the server generates its secret seed, hashes it, and displays the hash. Right is far?

Then, a seed needs to be generated for the client. I assume the clients computer doesn't generate it, otherwise someone theoretically write a JavaScript that always generates the highest possible "roll", no?

So if it's done on the server, why can't the server generate several rolls instead of one, and deliver only the losing roll to the client? I just dint get it. It would seem like the client would need its own secret to insure that the server wasn't doing anything fishy, if everything is server side, I don't see how you can "prove" anything to the client except that, in aggregate, each of the bets paid at approximately the odds that were advertised?

Can we explain in English? Knowing that while I think I have a clue, I'll get lost when you start using programmers syntax?

[ASICSRUS]

.." Now, when you reveal the secret (whenever you want to)..."


whenever i want to what to?lol~ok then what makes it secret if its revealed?  

[ASICSRUS]

"Now supposing your connection is dropped before placing a bet, then the nonce isn't incremented. This means you can just reconnect and submit the same bet, and you will get the result that you would've got earlier if you were connected."


what so timing means nothing? 

[knowitnothing]

I'm apparently dumb as a doornail, because I still don't understand how you can be assured that cheating can't / won't occur.

My understanding is that the server generates its secret seed, hashes it, and displays the hash. Right is far?

Then, a seed needs to be generated for the client. I assume the clients computer doesn't generate it, otherwise someone theoretically write a JavaScript that always generates the highest possible "roll", no?

The user manually enters, i.e. types, his seed /after/ seeing the hash of the secret seed. So the secret seed is generated without any knowledge about the user seed.

[ASICSRUS]

Under this scheme each user would be required to provide a new seed for each and every roll.  If some users did not change their seed from roll to roll then the server could determine the outcome several rolls in the future (in those specific cases) and simply cut that user off, shut down the server, etc.  Any system where the server can determine future rolls in a deterministic way, even in a small fractions of the plays, is not provably fair because you cannot force the casino to keep playing.  

You can never force the casino to keep playing.  You also can't force them to actually make withdrawals when players win.  There's a limit to how far provably fair can go.

If a casino shuts down because you're about to make have a big win then something is clearly wrong.  The casino should operate within their bankroll and be able to pay out any bet they offer, so cheating the player isn't of interest to them.  It doesn't take much to get a bad reputation and with so much competition, players will just go somewhere else.

Provable fairness generally simply means that there's no way the house can influence the outcome of the player's bets.  It's usually implemented as:

1) server picks server seed
2) server displays hash of server seed
3) user picks client seed
4) play happens
5) server reveals server seed
6) player verifies that play happened according to server and client seed

1 happening before 3 makes sure the server can't influence the outcome, because the client seed changes everything
2 makes sure the server can't change its seed after picking it

Step 4 can be a single roll, like at primedice, or multiple rolls, like at coinroll, just-dice, ggdice, and probably many more.  If it's multiple rolls, then a nonce is used which changes for each roll in a predictable way, so that we can have multiple unpredictable outcomes for a single seed pair.

The fact that the server knows the player's next thousand outcomes doesn't change anything unless the server does something obvious like blocking the player's account before he's about to have a big win.


My attention was drawn to this thread after a pleasing discussion of the merits of provable fairness on the Just-Dice trollbox:

20:17:13 (194226) <mistymountain> you fuck me this round doog what did you just switch it?
20:17:52 (194226) <mistymountain> bullshit odds went up or something
20:18:18 (194226) <mistymountain> gmre changes uncresd reds i'm not dumb
20:18:38 (194226) <mistymountain> so fucked
20:19:21 (194226) <mistymountain> cherry pick times when its better hmmm~semon seed time lol]
20:19:28 (143789) <dammmmit> lol misty sounds so hard like ASICSRUS
20:19:51 (194226) <mistymountain> don't start w.the provably fair nonsense omg
20:20:34 (194226) <mistymountain> i'll move this to the tgread its cool
20:20:49 (194226) <mistymountain> nitcoin talk
20:21:14 (194226) <mistymountain> 91 percent not
20:21:31 (1) <dooglus> misty: if you calm down a little I'm sure we can get to the bottom of this
20:21:51 (194226) <mistymountain> im at bottom here
20:22:24 (143789) <dammmmit> MISTY I NEED TO KNOW, ARE YOU ASICSRUS ON BITCOINTALK?
20:22:51 (194226) <mistymountain> ok i had a bad feeling should have stopped
20:23:10 (194226) <mistymountain> Big Baller ihub
20:23:28 (2) <Deb> sup misty?
20:24:15 (194226) <mistymountain> it's cool i guess it appears something chaned monkeys behind the curtain?lol
20:25:20 (2) <Deb> misty you can check that the rolls were fair
20:26:00 (194226) <mistymountain> not even i'll post it on the board you turkey
20:26:17 (2) <Deb> who is a turkey misty?
20:26:48 (194226) <mistymountain> you all are turkeys in my book gooble gooble
20:27:15 (2) <Deb> really misty
20:27:36 (194226) <mistymountain> doog is the turkey=)
20:28:04 (194226) <mistymountain> it seemed egit but yeah all in bitches
20:28:05 (2) <Deb> well, at times i might agree misty, but never about math or fairness he'll always win there
20:28:11 (143789) <dammmmit> hey misty want a 0.02 donation?
20:28:35 (194226) <mistymountain> ok oll burn it lol
20:28:35 (193176) <chester> hi mistyASICS
20:28:49 (194226) <mistymountain> Baller to you
20:28:54 (1532) <satoshi> misty why do you even gamble
20:29:28 (194226) <mistymountain> [1ERmwC46]<dammmmit>turkey
20:30:33 (194226) <mistymountain> wjat are you smoking fool
20:31:33 (194226) <mistymountain> goog you nigged me!!!
20:33:19 (194226) <mistymountain> Deb fucking cunt gtfo no bitches up in here y0

He stopped talking at that point.  I think maybe Deb muted him.  Not sure which of his last two lines pushed her over the edge.

nice what are you trying to say? LOL

[ASICSRUS]

I'm apparently dumb as a doornail, because I still don't understand how you can be assured that cheating can't / won't occur.

My understanding is that the server generates its secret seed, hashes it, and displays the hash. Right is far?

Then, a seed needs to be generated for the client. I assume the clients computer doesn't generate it, otherwise someone theoretically write a JavaScript that always generates the highest possible "roll", no?

The user manually enters, i.e. types, his seed /after/ seeing the hash of the secret seed. So the secret seed is generated without any knowledge about the user seed.

What?~ you cant see the hash of the secret seed until after the results!!! 

[Rannasha]

My understanding is that the server generates its secret seed, hashes it, and displays the hash. Right is far?

Correct.

Then, a seed needs to be generated for the client. I assume the clients computer doesn't generate it, otherwise someone theoretically write a JavaScript that always generates the highest possible "roll", no?

So if it's done on the server, why can't the server generate several rolls instead of one, and deliver only the losing roll to the client? I just dint get it. It would seem like the client would need its own secret to insure that the server wasn't doing anything fishy, if everything is server side, I don't see how you can "prove" anything to the client except that, in aggregate, each of the bets paid at approximately the odds that were advertised?

Can we explain in English? Knowing that while I think I have a clue, I'll get lost when you start using programmers syntax?

To generate a roll fairly, you need 3 things:
- A server seed/secret. This needs to be a secret to the gambler, so he can't predict the outcome. On the other hand, it needs to be fixed and impossible for the operator to manipulate, which is why the hash of the server secret is available in advance. (EDIT: The "hash" is a function that depends on the input, but where the outupt can't be traced back to the input. Consider a very simple example of a very long number as input and the hash being the sum of all its digits. There is no way to calculate what the input was if I only know the hash, but if the input is changed, so is the hash (in 90% of the cases). In reality, these functions are much more complex to ensure that any change in the input only has a mindbogglingly low chance of generating the same hash.)
- Something that the gambler can choose/influence. This is to ensure that the operator doesn't pick seeds that give a higher than average chance to lose for the gambler. This is called the client seed. Most websites will set a random number as the client seed, but allow the gambler to alter this seed. It is important that the hash of the server seed is shown before the client seed is altered. Otherwise the operator can check what client seed the gambler has chosen and then keep generating and testing server seeds until it finds one with a good loss-rate.
- Something that changes with every bet in a predictable way, so that both gambler and operator know what changes. This is simply to ensure that successive bets have different rolls. This value should be public. This value is also called a 'nonce'. Typically, it's just the number of bets since the last time the seeds were changed.

The triplet of server seed, client seed and nonce is used to generate the outcome of the roll. The gambler doesn't know the server seed (he can only verify afterwards that it wasn't changed by checking the hash), the operator has no influence over the client seed (so he can't generate and test server seeds until he gets a favourable one and use that for the gambler) and the nonce ensures that each next bet is different.

After betting, the gambler can request the server seed for his session. At this point the website shows the server seed and generates a new one (and shows its hash, for the next bets). The gambler knows his client seed and he knows which nonces were used (since this too is public information). He can now recreate his betting session and check that the rolls that he obtained from the website match what he obtained from the verification.

The weakness in this scheme is the client seed. In order to ensure that the operator doesn't cheat the gambler, the gambler *has to* set his own client seed. Most gambling sites give you a client seed to begin with and most gamblers are lazy enough to keep it. In this scenario, a malicious operator could test the combination of server seed and client seed and pick the combination that gives him favourable results. If the gambler changes the client seed, this is no longer possible.

[Mooshire]

I'm apparently dumb as a doornail, because I still don't understand how you can be assured that cheating can't / won't occur.

My understanding is that the server generates its secret seed, hashes it, and displays the hash. Right is far?

Then, a seed needs to be generated for the client. I assume the clients computer doesn't generate it, otherwise someone theoretically write a JavaScript that always generates the highest possible "roll", no?

The user manually enters, i.e. types, his seed /after/ seeing the hash of the secret seed. So the secret seed is generated without any knowledge about the user seed.

What?~ you cant see the hash of the secret seed until after the results!!! 

I have never listened to someone so autistic on the internet before.

[lucasjkr]

Thank you! That's the part I was missing. I was thinking we were talking about, say, satoshi dice, where there doesn't seem to be any interaction beyond sending coins to an address and wondering how much you'll get back.

However, (and there's always a however), after reading bitzino's description, I think I see a potential way the casino could game the system. Far from guaranteed, but I'm interested to see if this is so?

Here's the link first: https://bitzino.com/about/fair

So, each user assuredly has an account.

The site shuffles the deck and signs it, then waits for the client to generate their seed in order to cut the deck. Now, the client can let their browser generate the seed, which would be secure so long as you're random number generator does its job. It ALSo lets you manually enter your own seed to use your own lucky numbers, etc.

If you happen to use the same lucky number or lucky phrase on a consistent basis, the server COULD "shuffle" the deck, cut it as if you were going to enter your normally used seed phrase, then look at the results of the deal. It could reshuffle if it saw that you would get a blackjack, or it could reshuffle over and over until it was assured to deal itself a 19, 20 or 21, so long as you enter the lucky phrase you'd used many times previously. Now, if you changed up your phrase or skipped entering it in favor of letting your browser make the number for you, the game would once again be unpredictable. But by entering your own seed and using the same one over and over, such a site could attempt to skew the results in their favor, no?

[Rannasha]

Thank you! That's the part I was missing. I was thinking we were talking about, say, satoshi dice, where there doesn't seem to be any interaction beyond sending coins to an address and wondering how much you'll get back.

In the case of SatoshiDice, the transaction ID serves as both the client seed and the nonce. The txid isn't known to the operator before the server seed is chosen, so he can't pick a favourable server seed. The gambler can influence the txid (it's possible to generate and sign a tx and then not submit it if you don't like the txid. You can then redo it and get a different txid) and the txid will be different for each bet (which makes it a viable nonce).

However, (and there's always a however), after reading bitzino's description, I think I see a potential way the casino could game the system. Far from guaranteed, but I'm interested to see if this is so?

Here's the link first: https://bitzino.com/about/fair

So, each user assuredly has an account.

The site shuffles the deck and signs it, then waits for the client to generate their seed in order to cut the deck. Now, the client can let their browser generate the seed, which would be secure so long as you're random number generator does its job. It ALSo lets you manually enter your own seed to use your own lucky numbers, etc.

If you happen to use the same lucky number or lucky phrase on a consistent basis, the server COULD "shuffle" the deck, cut it as if you were going to enter your normally used seed phrase, then look at the results of the deal. It could reshuffle if it saw that you would get a blackjack, or it could reshuffle over and over until it was assured to deal itself a 19, 20 or 21, so long as you enter the lucky phrase you'd used many times previously. Now, if you changed up your phrase or skipped entering it in favor of letting your browser make the number for you, the game would once again be unpredictable. But by entering your own seed and using the same one over and over, such a site could attempt to skew the results in their favor, no?

You are correct. And this doesn't just apply to bitzino, but all dice sites too. Like I said in my previous post, the client seed is the weakest link in a provably fair system. If a gambler uses the same client seed all the time, the operator can generate and test server seeds to be matched with the client seed that the gambler always uses and use the server seed that gives the best outcome for the operator.

This means that if you're very picky about your provable fairness, you shouldn't reuse client seeds.

In the end, it also boils down to the trustworthiness of the operator. A malicious operator can just take your deposit and run with it. All the provable fairness in the world isn't going to stop that. Of course, such a scheme has a very short lifetime, while a malicious operator skimming an extra 1% edge of the wagered amount by manipulating the bets on a site that doesn't implement provable fairness (correctly) is much harder to detect.

[ASICSRUS]

My understanding is that the server generates its secret seed, hashes it, and displays the hash. Right is far?

Correct.

Then, a seed needs to be generated for the client. I assume the clients computer doesn't generate it, otherwise someone theoretically write a JavaScript that always generates the highest possible "roll", no?

So if it's done on the server, why can't the server generate several rolls instead of one, and deliver only the losing roll to the client? I just dint get it. It would seem like the client would need its own secret to insure that the server wasn't doing anything fishy, if everything is server side, I don't see how you can "prove" anything to the client except that, in aggregate, each of the bets paid at approximately the odds that were advertised?

Can we explain in English? Knowing that while I think I have a clue, I'll get lost when you start using programmers syntax?

To generate a roll fairly, you need 3 things:
- A server seed/secret. This needs to be a secret to the gambler, so he can't predict the outcome. On the other hand, it needs to be fixed and impossible for the operator to manipulate, which is why the hash of the server secret is available in advance. (EDIT: The "hash" is a function that depends on the input, but where the outupt can't be traced back to the input. Consider a very simple example of a very long number as input and the hash being the sum of all its digits. There is no way to calculate what the input was if I only know the hash, but if the input is changed, so is the hash (in 90% of the cases). In reality, these functions are much more complex to ensure that any change in the input only has a mindbogglingly low chance of generating the same hash.)
- Something that the gambler can choose/influence. This is to ensure that the operator doesn't pick seeds that give a higher than average chance to lose for the gambler. This is called the client seed. Most websites will set a random number as the client seed, but allow the gambler to alter this seed. It is important that the hash of the server seed is shown before the client seed is altered. Otherwise the operator can check what client seed the gambler has chosen and then keep generating and testing server seeds until it finds one with a good loss-rate.
- Something that changes with every bet in a predictable way, so that both gambler and operator know what changes. This is simply to ensure that successive bets have different rolls. This value should be public. This value is also called a 'nonce'. Typically, it's just the number of bets since the last time the seeds were changed.

The triplet of server seed, client seed and nonce is used to generate the outcome of the roll. The gambler doesn't know the server seed (he can only verify afterwards that it wasn't changed by checking the hash), the operator has no influence over the client seed (so he can't generate and test server seeds until he gets a favourable one and use that for the gambler) and the nonce ensures that each next bet is different.

After betting, the gambler can request the server seed for his session. At this point the website shows the server seed and generates a new one (and shows its hash, for the next bets). The gambler knows his client seed and he knows which nonces were used (since this too is public information). He can now recreate his betting session and check that the rolls that he obtained from the website match what he obtained from the verification.

The weakness in this scheme is the client seed. In order to ensure that the operator doesn't cheat the gambler, the gambler *has to* set his own client seed. Most gambling sites give you a client seed to begin with and most gamblers are lazy enough to keep it. In this scenario, a malicious operator could test the combination of server seed and client seed and pick the combination that gives him favourable results. If the gambler changes the client seed, this is no longer possible.

you are forgetting the 4th seed!!!  where have you been!?

[ASICSRUS]

I'm apparently dumb as a doornail, because I still don't understand how you can be assured that cheating can't / won't occur.

My understanding is that the server generates its secret seed, hashes it, and displays the hash. Right is far?

Then, a seed needs to be generated for the client. I assume the clients computer doesn't generate it, otherwise someone theoretically write a JavaScript that always generates the highest possible "roll", no?

The user manually enters, i.e. types, his seed /after/ seeing the hash of the secret seed. So the secret seed is generated without any knowledge about the user seed.

What?~ you cant see the hash of the secret seed until after the results!!! 

you finally made it here?  omg /\\/

http://investorshub.advfn.com/Paulies-Pixel-Palace-2581/

[tonino]

You are correct. And this doesn't just apply to bitzino, but all dice sites too..............................

what does this mean? it is only dice sites related? is the provably fair option different for Roulette, Black Jack, Slots etc

[Rannasha]

You are correct. And this doesn't just apply to bitzino, but all dice sites too..............................

what does this mean? it is only dice sites related? is the provably fair option different for Roulette, Black Jack, Slots etc

In principle, it works the same on all types of gambling: The server has its secret, of which only the hash is shared, and the users have their seeds, which they can pick themselves. The final result, be it a pokerdraw or a diceroll, then depends on the server-secret, the client-seed(s) and some unique value (nonce).

If a user always uses the same client seed, a malicious operator may cherrypick server-secrets that will yield poor results for the gambler when combined with that specific client seed.

[tonino]

You are correct. And this doesn't just apply to bitzino, but all dice sites too..............................

what does this mean? it is only dice sites related? is the provably fair option different for Roulette, Black Jack, Slots etc

In principle, it works the same on all types of gambling: The server has its secret, of which only the hash is shared, and the users have their seeds, which they can pick themselves. The final result, be it a pokerdraw or a diceroll, then depends on the server-secret, the client-seed(s) and some unique value (nonce).

If a user always uses the same client seed, a malicious operator may cherrypick server-secrets that will yield poor results for the gambler when combined with that specific client seed.

thanks for clarifying. how can the casino owner pressure or force a player to change the seed? IMHO many players are just to lazy because they want the action = gambling.

[Rannasha]

You are correct. And this doesn't just apply to bitzino, but all dice sites too..............................

what does this mean? it is only dice sites related? is the provably fair option different for Roulette, Black Jack, Slots etc

In principle, it works the same on all types of gambling: The server has its secret, of which only the hash is shared, and the users have their seeds, which they can pick themselves. The final result, be it a pokerdraw or a diceroll, then depends on the server-secret, the client-seed(s) and some unique value (nonce).

If a user always uses the same client seed, a malicious operator may cherrypick server-secrets that will yield poor results for the gambler when combined with that specific client seed.

thanks for clarifying. how can the casino owner pressure or force a player to change the seed? IMHO many players are just to lazy because they want the action = gambling.

Simple. Don't set a pregenerated client seed like most websites do. Just pop up an input-box prompting for a client seed when a player starts.

The client seed can be used until the server secret for that user is changed. This is either daily, at the users request or both. At that time, prompt again for a client seed and don't accept the previously used seed.

[trout]

huge flame, but the simple observation I made is largerly missed.

There's a difference between "you know when you've been cheated" and
"when you'be been cheated, you can prove it."

Unfortunately, the off-chain "provably fair" casions provide only the first
type of guarantee, whereas the on-chain ones provide the second type.

I don't think one needs the bitcoin blockchain to solve the problem, but
the current algorithms in off-chain casions do not provide a solution.

[knowitnothing]

huge flame, but the simple observation I made is largerly missed.

There's a difference between "you know when you've been cheated" and
"when you'be been cheated, you can prove it."

Unfortunately, the off-chain "provably fair" casions provide only the first
type of guarantee, whereas the on-chain ones provide the second type.

I don't think one needs the bitcoin blockchain to solve the problem, but
the current algorithms in off-chain casions do not provide a solution.

There's no need to complicate the situation. Whenever you make a deposit at any place (this goes way beyond off the chain games), that place is able to do anything with that. The only reason such thing does not happen is because there is no interest in doing so. You can sign messages, broadcasts them, and so on, but since you made a deposit then it's just a matter of trusting the place.

[ASICSRUS]

huge flame, but the simple observation I made is largerly missed.

There's a difference between "you know when you've been cheated" and
"when you'be been cheated, you can prove it."

Unfortunately, the off-chain "provably fair" casions provide only the first
type of guarantee, whereas the on-chain ones provide the second type.

I don't think one needs the bitcoin blockchain to solve the problem, but
the current algorithms in off-chain casions do not provide a solution.

There's no need to complicate the situation. Whenever you make a deposit at any place (this goes way beyond off the chain games), that place is able to do anything with that. The only reason such thing does not happen is because there is no interest in doing so. You can sign messages, broadcasts them, and so on, but since you made a deposit then it's just a matter of trusting the place.

it seems this problem is more wide spread and across the board . don't mean to imply i'm singling out ggdice! 

[freethink2013]

No such thing as provably fair imho. It's basically a theory that's been turned into marketing thing. People put way too much trust in the claim.

I'd like to see a site prove they are "Provably Random"

[knowitnothing]

No such thing as provably fair imho. It's basically a theory that's been turned into marketing thing. People put way too much trust in the claim.

I'd like to see a site prove they are "Provably Random"

That's a matter of passing randomness tests, would you actually be happy if a certain site presented that to the user ? Actually, anyone can reproduce the method used for the rolls, do the rolls themselves offline and apply randomness tests (just make sure you do it correctly). What I think will happen is that another group will come around claiming this adds nothing, it's just a marketing thing and people put way too much trust in the claim.

[freethink2013]

No such thing as provably fair imho. It's basically a theory that's been turned into marketing thing. People put way too much trust in the claim.

I'd like to see a site prove they are "Provably Random"

That's a matter of passing randomness tests, would you actually be happy if a certain site presented that to the user ? Actually, anyone can reproduce the method used for the rolls, do the rolls themselves offline and apply randomness tests (just make sure you do it correctly). What I think will happen is that another group will come around claiming this adds nothing, it's just a marketing thing and people put way too much trust in the claim.

Actually providing the best possible random results helps you more than the punters. Once you start doing major volume or big bets people will target you and figure out how you are random but predictable and then if there is enough money in it they will figure out how to take you to the cleaners.

It's happened to some major sites. Once you start doing volume you are under a much more powerful microscope.

I suppose: make hay while the sun shines

[cwil]

This thread is ridiculous.  I can understand there being questions of how the math works, but it's been explained at this point.  These casino operators could get their software checked by an ISO 17025 lab, and half of these people would think the casino and lab were working together in the shadows to scam everyone.

The math doesn't lie.  If you use the same seed or a predictable seed every time you play, then yeah, a site could probably make you lose.  We can't fix stupid, pick a random seed.  Or don't gamble, whichever.

[freethink2013]

This thread is ridiculous.  I can understand there being questions of how the math works, but it's been explained at this point.  These casino operators could get their software checked by an ISO 17025 lab, and half of these people would think the casino and lab were working together in the shadows to scam everyone.

The math doesn't lie.  If you use the same seed or a predictable seed every time you play, then yeah, a site could probably make you lose.  We can't fix stupid, pick a random seed.  Or don't gamble, whichever.

imho the annoyance is because the guy is trying to rip the site(s) off and he's frustrated plus wants to egg the operators into giving him more info on how they produce their numbers

[bee7]

and half of these people would think the casino and lab were working together in the shadows to scam everyone.

+1

[trout]

huge flame, but the simple observation I made is largerly missed.

There's a difference between "you know when you've been cheated" and
"when you'be been cheated, you can prove it."

Unfortunately, the off-chain "provably fair" casions provide only the first
type of guarantee, whereas the on-chain ones provide the second type.

I don't think one needs the bitcoin blockchain to solve the problem, but
the current algorithms in off-chain casions do not provide a solution.

There's no need to complicate the situation. Whenever you make a deposit at any place (this goes way beyond off the chain games), that place is able to do anything with that. The only reason such thing does not happen is because there is no interest in doing so. You can sign messages, broadcasts them, and so on, but since you made a deposit then it's just a matter of trusting the place.

it doesn't *have* to be this way.
for example, in satoshi dice and the rest of them on-chain gambling places, there's no need for trust

[knowitnothing]

huge flame, but the simple observation I made is largerly missed.

There's a difference between "you know when you've been cheated" and
"when you'be been cheated, you can prove it."

Unfortunately, the off-chain "provably fair" casions provide only the first
type of guarantee, whereas the on-chain ones provide the second type.

I don't think one needs the bitcoin blockchain to solve the problem, but
the current algorithms in off-chain casions do not provide a solution.

There's no need to complicate the situation. Whenever you make a deposit at any place (this goes way beyond off the chain games), that place is able to do anything with that. The only reason such thing does not happen is because there is no interest in doing so. You can sign messages, broadcasts them, and so on, but since you made a deposit then it's just a matter of trusting the place.

it doesn't *have* to be this way.
for example, in satoshi dice and the rest of them on-chain gambling places, there's no need for trust

You must be missing something then. Consider an on the chain game X, and make a deposit to place a bet. If the bet amount is above Y, then you never hear about X again. How can that not require trust ? The transaction is recorded in the blockchain, but that doesn't mean you can't be scammed.

[trout]

huge flame, but the simple observation I made is largerly missed.

There's a difference between "you know when you've been cheated" and
"when you'be been cheated, you can prove it."

Unfortunately, the off-chain "provably fair" casions provide only the first
type of guarantee, whereas the on-chain ones provide the second type.

I don't think one needs the bitcoin blockchain to solve the problem, but
the current algorithms in off-chain casions do not provide a solution.

There's no need to complicate the situation. Whenever you make a deposit at any place (this goes way beyond off the chain games), that place is able to do anything with that. The only reason such thing does not happen is because there is no interest in doing so. You can sign messages, broadcasts them, and so on, but since you made a deposit then it's just a matter of trusting the place.

it doesn't *have* to be this way.
for example, in satoshi dice and the rest of them on-chain gambling places, there's no need for trust

You must be missing something then. Consider an on the chain game X, and make a deposit to place a bet. If the bet amount is above Y, then you never hear about X again. How can that not require trust ? The transaction is recorded in the blockchain, but that doesn't mean you can't be scammed.

yes, you can be scammed on-chain but everybody will know about it, not just you.
Everybody will see that there's no return transaction, so you can prove you've been cheated.
That's the main difference.

[ASICSRUS]

No such thing as provably fair imho. It's basically a theory that's been turned into marketing thing. People put way too much trust in the claim.

I'd like to see a site prove they are "Provably Random"

That's a matter of passing randomness tests, would you actually be happy if a certain site presented that to the user ? Actually, anyone can reproduce the method used for the rolls, do the rolls themselves offline and apply randomness tests (just make sure you do it correctly). What I think will happen is that another group will come around claiming this adds nothing, it's just a marketing thing and people put way too much trust in the claim.

your site FAILED my randomness test! 

[knowitnothing]

No such thing as provably fair imho. It's basically a theory that's been turned into marketing thing. People put way too much trust in the claim.

I'd like to see a site prove they are "Provably Random"

That's a matter of passing randomness tests, would you actually be happy if a certain site presented that to the user ? Actually, anyone can reproduce the method used for the rolls, do the rolls themselves offline and apply randomness tests (just make sure you do it correctly). What I think will happen is that another group will come around claiming this adds nothing, it's just a marketing thing and people put way too much trust in the claim.

I would say the way to go is to have the random numbers provided by a third party.  Either the web site or the user could interface with a service such as random.org.  If there is way to create accounts at this third party random generator site, and if it interfaced easily with the game, this third party could generate random numbers and keep track of which random numbers went with which bets so it can be reproduced later for verification.

I would prefer that you thought more about this idea. One of the easiest ways to defeat its purpose is exactly one of the situations you made up earlier: disconnects. Suppose a site claims it's receiving data from random.org, then when you make a bet it picks a number from random.org. Except in those situations where you would win big, then the site says it had connection issues and the first number it asked for was never received, so it had to ask for another one. Truly random data is not repeatable, so you cannot have a seed that would allow repicking an old value. This would actually be a very common situation given frequent DDoS. Also, if you can repick older values a lot of other situations come up..

[Dabs]

Uh, I wasn't about to involve myself in this rather silly thread. But, off-chain games can be recorded by the player as it is happening, and the results are usually also recorded by the site as the bets are happening.

In fact, some sites display a public log of wins and losses as players are betting. Any one of those players can keep that log on their own computers.

Off-chain is basically saving the blockchain from getting too large too fast. Imagine if all the dice sites are exactly like SatoshiDice? Our blockchain would be a few terabytes by now, and the games would not be as fast as they are now because the servers would be waiting for the deposits to either confirm, or to be broadcast across the entire bitcoin network (or at least from the player node to the server node.)

Yes, you could use trusted third party sites, but that makes the games exponentially slower.

There is a 100% provably fair way to play these games, and I am running a perfect example of that, except my games take 1 week between results (I could shorten it to 1 day, or even 1 block.) The fact that it is on-chain doesn't change a thing, as I can convert the game into off-chain and make everything public anyway.

Would you be willing to wait about 10 minutes to find out if your roll won or lost? It's 100% provably fair by any standard you want to throw at it, as it essentially means no one knows the random number or the secret that will be used until after the bet is in.

To everyone else, do not feed the trolls. They grow yanno. Like watering the gremlins ... ... A ___ and his money are soon parted. There is a ___ born every minute. You can fill in the blank with whatever you want, it will make sense either way.

I also do escrows ... so ...

[ASICSRUS]

it essentially means no one knows the random number or the secret that will be used until after the bet is in.

yes but the odds are programmed coded adjusted way off what is displayed, imo i think thats what makes these type sites not truthful or honest to players.  

[Dabs]

it essentially means no one knows the random number or the secret that will be used until after the bet is in.

yes but the odds are programmed coded adjusted way off what is displayed, imo i think thats what makes these type sites not truthful or honest to players. 

I meant, for example, for sites that get their results from somewhere or something after the game has ended, but before the results are known. Like if they are based on the next block hash, or the future event (real life lotto, sports, etc.)

[tonino]

I was thinking more in terms of the player using the data.  If there was an app (independent of the site) that interfaced with the game and put in random seeds and kept track for later verification the player would not need to do anything other than bet.

............................the player would not need to do anything other than bet.

yes that would be the best for both sides, the house and the players. how could this be accomplished?