problem with off-chain "provably fair" games

[ASICSRUS]

@ASICSRUS

If you are seeing a pattern and not profiting from it then you are an idiot.

Them ripping you off or fixing things is far less likely than their "random" being nothing more than a pattern - an elaborate one but a pattern nonetheless. Being random is difficult and imho a lot of the time in the current btc gambling goldrush "provably fair" is actually pushing what should be random into a straight jacket that decreases randomization rather than increases it.

Also it's fucking dice! ffs. Try a game of skill

yes my friend: a pattern of false representation!w/Displaying fake odds!  

omg is this nitwit/\ ROTFLMFAOO

[imagereply]

@ASICSRUS

If you are seeing a pattern and not profiting from it then you are an idiot.

Them ripping you off or fixing things is far less likely than their "random" being nothing more than a pattern - an elaborate one but a pattern nonetheless. Being random is difficult and imho a lot of the time in the current btc gambling goldrush "provably fair" is actually pushing what should be random into a straight jacket that decreases randomization rather than increases it.

Also it's fucking dice! ffs. Try a game of skill

yes my friend: a pattern of false representation!w/Displaying fake odds!  

You've said you've identified a pattern. In layman's terms you know ahead of time what dice will be rolled so why are you still losing?

it's called a: "seed override" type mechanism that insures user loss!!!  

http://a.wattpad.net/cover/1887436-256-k264602.jpg

[lucasjkr]

I have real issue with provably fair. I'm not a mathematician or a programmer though...

But with any of the dice games, how can you tell if the winning seed was generated before or after your bet and roll? Or how can you tell if the first seed generated (which might have been a win) wasn't discarded and regenerated until your roll would create a loss instead ?  As long as in the long term the payout matches what the house odds claim to be, how would you tell that that the long odd bets were performing as promised? If the stated odds are 1 in 1000, but after 200,000 roles, only 900 wins occurred , how would one know if that was the luck of the house, or a random number generator  or other logic wasn't subtly altered to benefit the house?

[ASICSRUS]

I have real issue with provably fair. I'm not a mathematician or a programmer though...

But with any of the dice games, how can you tell if the winning seed was generated before or after your bet and roll? Or how can you tell if the first seed generated (which might have been a win) wasn't discarded and regenerated until your roll would create a loss instead ?  As long as in the long term the payout matches what the house odds claim to be, how would you tell that that the long odd bets were performing as promised? If the stated odds are 1 in 1000, but after 200,000 roles, only 900 wins occurred , how would one know if that was the luck of the house, or a random number generator  or other logic wasn't subtly altered to benefit the house?

i can tell these games are rigged after playing many many hours!   =nobrainer

[freethink2013]

@ASICSRUS

If you are seeing a pattern and not profiting from it then you are an idiot.

Them ripping you off or fixing things is far less likely than their "random" being nothing more than a pattern - an elaborate one but a pattern nonetheless. Being random is difficult and imho a lot of the time in the current btc gambling goldrush "provably fair" is actually pushing what should be random into a straight jacket that decreases randomization rather than increases it.

Also it's fucking dice! ffs. Try a game of skill

yes my friend: a pattern of false representation!w/Displaying fake odds!  

You've said you've identified a pattern. In layman's terms you know ahead of time what dice will be rolled so why are you still losing?

it's called a: "seed override" type mechanism that insures user loss!!!  

so you are saying they run this predictable 'random' pattern except when you put a bet on. when that happens then they do whatever it takes to make sure you lose.

Not against you at all but you aren't employing joined up thinking. Maybe that's because you are so angry at being ripped off or whatever but either way all you've done is advertise the site you've been trying to take down as having some sort of exploitable flaw worth investigating. I hope you work for them as all you've done is them a favor.

[Munouhapi]

I have real issue with provably fair. I'm not a mathematician or a programmer though...

But with any of the dice games, how can you tell if the winning seed was generated before or after your bet and roll? Or how can you tell if the first seed generated (which might have been a win) wasn't discarded and regenerated until your roll would create a loss instead ?  As long as in the long term the payout matches what the house odds claim to be, how would you tell that that the long odd bets were performing as promised? If the stated odds are 1 in 1000, but after 200,000 roles, only 900 wins occurred , how would one know if that was the luck of the house, or a random number generator  or other logic wasn't subtly altered to benefit the house?

i can tell these games are rigged after playing many many hours!   =nobrainer

still trolling?

[knowitnothing]

I have real issue with provably fair. I'm not a mathematician or a programmer though...

But with any of the dice games, how can you tell if the winning seed was generated before or after your bet and roll? Or how can you tell if the first seed generated (which might have been a win) wasn't discarded and regenerated until your roll would create a loss instead ?  As long as in the long term the payout matches what the house odds claim to be, how would you tell that that the long odd bets were performing as promised? If the stated odds are 1 in 1000, but after 200,000 roles, only 900 wins occurred , how would one know if that was the luck of the house, or a random number generator  or other logic wasn't subtly altered to benefit the house?

The first thing you can do when you visit any site that is actually provably fair is check for your user seed and the hash of the secret seed. If you have this information you can be sure the seed was generated before any roll, so you can be sure the situation you describe cannot happen. You should also be able to set your own user seed AFTER the system has picked a secret seed. Please take some time to understand how it works, and remember that each site employs its own custom method.

Basically, a secret seed is generated,  then the hash of this secret seed is shown, then a user picks its own seed. If the secret seed is modified during the rolls, then when you ask to reveal it you won't be able get the same hash you received earlier. So the system cannot change this seed. If the user seed is changed during the rolls, then the results you get won't match the ones you can generate after the secret seed is released. So the system cannot change this seed either. If you modify any of them for any of the rolls, you won't be able to verify the results either. If you understand all of this, can you explain how the situation you describe is possible ?

[ASICSRUS]

@ASICSRUS

If you are seeing a pattern and not profiting from it then you are an idiot.

Them ripping you off or fixing things is far less likely than their "random" being nothing more than a pattern - an elaborate one but a pattern nonetheless. Being random is difficult and imho a lot of the time in the current btc gambling goldrush "provably fair" is actually pushing what should be random into a straight jacket that decreases randomization rather than increases it.

Also it's fucking dice! ffs. Try a game of skill

yes my friend: a pattern of false representation!w/Displaying fake odds!  

You've said you've identified a pattern. In layman's terms you know ahead of time what dice will be rolled so why are you still losing?

it's called a: "seed override" type mechanism that insures user loss!!!  

so you are saying they run this predictable 'random' pattern except when you put a bet on. when that happens then they do whatever it takes to make sure you lose.

Not against you at all but you aren't employing joined up thinking. Maybe that's because you are so angry at being ripped off or whatever but either way all you've done is advertise the site you've been trying to take down as having some sort of exploitable flaw worth investigating. I hope you work for them as all you've done is them a favor.

no there are a few on my "hit list" ~the ones that are blatant about this activity!

[ASICSRUS]

I have real issue with provably fair. I'm not a mathematician or a programmer though...

But with any of the dice games, how can you tell if the winning seed was generated before or after your bet and roll? Or how can you tell if the first seed generated (which might have been a win) wasn't discarded and regenerated until your roll would create a loss instead ?  As long as in the long term the payout matches what the house odds claim to be, how would you tell that that the long odd bets were performing as promised? If the stated odds are 1 in 1000, but after 200,000 roles, only 900 wins occurred , how would one know if that was the luck of the house, or a random number generator  or other logic wasn't subtly altered to benefit the house?

The first thing you can do when you visit any site that is actually provably fair is check for your user seed and the hash of the secret seed. If you have this information you can be sure the seed was generated before any roll, so you can be sure the situation you describe cannot happen. You should also be able to set your own user seed AFTER the system has picked a secret seed. Please take some time to understand how it works, and remember that each site employs its own custom method.

Basically, a secret seed is generated,  then the hash of this secret seed is shown, then a user picks its own seed. If the secret seed is modified during the rolls, then when you ask to reveal it you won't be able get the same hash you received earlier. So the system cannot change this seed. If the user seed is changed during the rolls, then the results you get won't match the ones you can generate after the secret seed is released. So the system cannot change this seed either. If you modify any of them for any of the rolls, you won't be able to verify the results either. If you understand all of this, can you explain how the situation you describe is possible ?

7his secret seed isn't "shown"(made public?) for 24hrs or,,, umm how long for your site?

However you wanna describe it the result is if you are betting smallish and you raise the bet without changing ANYTHING else you will indeed witness an increase number of RED!(kill switch)    hmmm what a mystery!!!
>>this is comical! 10BTC for the indepth youtube movie + i will promo your site for FREE!(=$10,000USD)

 
easyyyy

[lucasjkr]

I have real issue with provably fair. I'm not a mathematician or a programmer though...

But with any of the dice games, how can you tell if the winning seed was generated before or after your bet and roll? Or how can you tell if the first seed generated (which might have been a win) wasn't discarded and regenerated until your roll would create a loss instead ?  As long as in the long term the payout matches what the house odds claim to be, how would you tell that that the long odd bets were performing as promised? If the stated odds are 1 in 1000, but after 200,000 roles, only 900 wins occurred , how would one know if that was the luck of the house, or a random number generator  or other logic wasn't subtly altered to benefit the house?

The first thing you can do when you visit any site that is actually provably fair is check for your user seed and the hash of the secret seed. If you have this information you can be sure the seed was generated before any roll, so you can be sure the situation you describe cannot happen. You should also be able to set your own user seed AFTER the system has picked a secret seed. Please take some time to understand how it works, and remember that each site employs its own custom method.

Basically, a secret seed is generated,  then the hash of this secret seed is shown, then a user picks its own seed. If the secret seed is modified during the rolls, then when you ask to reveal it you won't be able get the same hash you received earlier. So the system cannot change this seed. If the user seed is changed during the rolls, then the results you get won't match the ones you can generate after the secret seed is released. So the system cannot change this seed either. If you modify any of them for any of the rolls, you won't be able to verify the results either. If you understand all of this, can you explain how the situation you describe is possible ?

OK.

So, the site generates its winning seed, sends it through a hash generator and shows you the hash? You then "roll" your dice, where a new number is generated. The system then shows you the original number so you can compare?

If the roll is done via javascript, the client generate 10,000 rolls, send the results through the same hash function and discard 9,999 of the non-winning results, no? So client side wouldn't seem to work.

So, if its done on the server side - you see the hash you're aiming for, the server the makes 50 dice "rolls" and then returns to you one of the losing rolls. It doesn't happen everytime. Just enough to add, say, another 1 or 2% to the house odds.

Or am I missing a piece somewhere?

[knowitnothing]

I have real issue with provably fair. I'm not a mathematician or a programmer though...

But with any of the dice games, how can you tell if the winning seed was generated before or after your bet and roll? Or how can you tell if the first seed generated (which might have been a win) wasn't discarded and regenerated until your roll would create a loss instead ?  As long as in the long term the payout matches what the house odds claim to be, how would you tell that that the long odd bets were performing as promised? If the stated odds are 1 in 1000, but after 200,000 roles, only 900 wins occurred , how would one know if that was the luck of the house, or a random number generator  or other logic wasn't subtly altered to benefit the house?

The first thing you can do when you visit any site that is actually provably fair is check for your user seed and the hash of the secret seed. If you have this information you can be sure the seed was generated before any roll, so you can be sure the situation you describe cannot happen. You should also be able to set your own user seed AFTER the system has picked a secret seed. Please take some time to understand how it works, and remember that each site employs its own custom method.

Basically, a secret seed is generated,  then the hash of this secret seed is shown, then a user picks its own seed. If the secret seed is modified during the rolls, then when you ask to reveal it you won't be able get the same hash you received earlier. So the system cannot change this seed. If the user seed is changed during the rolls, then the results you get won't match the ones you can generate after the secret seed is released. So the system cannot change this seed either. If you modify any of them for any of the rolls, you won't be able to verify the results either. If you understand all of this, can you explain how the situation you describe is possible ?

OK.

So, the site generates its winning seed, sends it through a hash generator and shows you the hash? You then "roll" your dice, where a new number is generated. The system then shows you the original number so you can compare?

If the roll is done via javascript, the client generate 10,000 rolls, send the results through the same hash function and discard 9,999 of the non-winning results, no? So client side wouldn't seem to work.

So, if its done on the server side - you see the hash you're aiming for, the server the makes 50 dice "rolls" and then returns to you one of the losing rolls. It doesn't happen everytime. Just enough to add, say, another 1 or 2% to the house odds.

Or am I missing a piece somewhere?

First of all there is no thing called "winning seed", it is just a secret seed. To describe this concretely, I will use the method employed by ggdice.

So let's say this secret seed is "ABC", and we will use SHA3-256. So the hash you would get would be e1629b9dda060bb30c7908346f6af189c16773fa148d3366701fbaa35d54f3c8 (you can check this using

Code:

python2.7 -c "import keccak; print(keccak.sha3_256('ABC').hexdigest())"

). Now, after you know this information, you send your seed, let's say it is "DEF". Now when you do a roll, there is also a thing called nonce which starts at 1 and is incremented after each bet.

All the client does is ask the server for a roll at a given win chance, with a certain amount, and whether you will believe the result will be greater or lower than the rolled number. The server knows the current seeds for the user as well the nonce. So for your first roll, the server concatenates the secret seed ABC, the nonce 1, and the user seed DEF. Then it performs the equivalent to

Code:

python2.7 -c "import keccak; print(int(keccak.sha3_256('ABC:1:DEF').hexdigest(), 16) % 1000000)"

. For the first roll, this results in the number 439654, displayed as "43.9654". For your second roll, the same is done using nonce 2, which gives 51395. And so on.

The roll cannot be done in the client because you do not have access to the secret seed yet. Now, when you reveal the secret (whenever you want to), you get the value 'ABC'. If you apply the same hashing function as before, you should get e1629b9dda060bb30c7908346f6af189c16773fa148d3366701fbaa35d54f3c8 that was revealed earlier to you. So now you can regenerate all the rolls, by incrementing the nonce starting from 1 with the now known secret seed. It should be clear that the system cannot skip rolls, because it wouldn't match what you can now verify. Is this clear ?

[knowitnothing]

Is this clear ?

The purpose of the nonce is not clear, it appears to be just part of the seed.  It is also not clear if the user has access to all the nonce's of all their rolls.  Maybe your explanation is just not complete but it is not proof of fairness the way you described it.  If the system is provable fair trying to explaining all this so the average user would understand is extremely difficult.  

If there was no nonce then you would be always applying the hashing function over the same input, which would always give the same output. So the nonce's purpose is to vary the rolled numbers.

The user always knows the current nonce, it is displayed in the user interface and it is just a incrementing counter. Can you please tell why do you think this is not provably fair ?

[knowitnothing]

Is this clear ?

The purpose of the nonce is not clear, it appears to be just part of the seed.  It is also not clear if the user has access to all the nonce's of all their rolls.  Maybe your explanation is just not complete but it is not proof of fairness the way you described it.  If the system is provable fair trying to explaining all this so the average user would understand is extremely difficult.  

If there is no nonce then you would be always applying the hashing function over the same input, which would always give the same output. So the nonce's purpose is to vary the rolled numbers.

The user always knows the current nonce, it is displayed in the user interface and it is just a incrementing counter. Can you please tell why do you think this is not provably fair ?

I don't understand.  If the seed changes for each roll you are not hashing the same input.  I don't see how the nonce is separate from the seed since the server controls both and just combines them.  if the server does not like the roll can't they just stall the connection and force the user to start over?  Even if the nonce was kept the same for the next roll the wouldn't the server seed be different?  Suppose the connection legitimately stalls during a roll?  Do you go back a recreate that roll?  

The seeds never change at ggdice, except when the user asks to. Each user has their own seeds.

Now supposing your connection is dropped before placing a bet, then the nonce isn't incremented. This means you can just reconnect and submit the same bet, and you will get the result that you would've got earlier if you were connected.

[knowitnothing]

Is this clear ?

The purpose of the nonce is not clear, it appears to be just part of the seed.  It is also not clear if the user has access to all the nonce's of all their rolls.  Maybe your explanation is just not complete but it is not proof of fairness the way you described it.  If the system is provable fair trying to explaining all this so the average user would understand is extremely difficult.  

If there is no nonce then you would be always applying the hashing function over the same input, which would always give the same output. So the nonce's purpose is to vary the rolled numbers.

The user always knows the current nonce, it is displayed in the user interface and it is just a incrementing counter. Can you please tell why do you think this is not provably fair ?

I don't understand.  If the seed changes for each roll you are not hashing the same input.  I don't see how the nonce is separate from the seed since the server controls both and just combines them.  if the server does not like the roll can't they just stall the connection and force the user to start over?  Even if the nonce was kept the same for the next roll the wouldn't the server seed be different?  Suppose the connection legitimately stalls during a roll?  Do you go back a recreate that roll?  

The seeds never change at ggdice, except when the user asks to. Each user has their own seeds.

Now supposing your connection is dropped before placing a bet, then the nonce isn't incremented. This means you can just reconnect and submit the same bet, and you will get the result that you would've got earlier if you were connected.

Sorry, but I still don't understand your explanation.  If the server seed never changes you can't give it to the user even after a bet because the user would have the server seed, the nonce, and their own seed so the user could determine the outcome of the next roll.

If the user chooses to reveal the secret seed, then a new one is generated for the subsequent bets. So it's ok to show the previous one used for the previous bets.

[bee7]

How it becomes difficult some times when kids are not studying math in the school

[knowitnothing]

Under this scheme each user would be required to provide a new seed for each and every roll.  If some users did not change their seed from roll to roll then the server could determine the outcome several rolls in the future (in those specific cases) and simply cut that user off, shut down the server, etc.  Any system where the server can determine future rolls in a deterministic way, even in a small fractions of the plays, is not provably fair because you cannot force the casino to keep playing.

It's getting repetitive now, we're stuck in a loop it seems.

Don't you understand that the only thing the server can determine for each bet is the rolled number ? The user decides the odds, and all the other settings. So the server cannot know whether the future rolls will win or not (so there is no reason to shutdown the server, cut that user off, etc) -- just knowing the rolls is not enough.

Please think about it for a moment. Also rethink on what you're calling provably fair.

[knowitnothing]

Under this scheme each user would be required to provide a new seed for each and every roll.  If some users did not change their seed from roll to roll then the server could determine the outcome several rolls in the future (in those specific cases) and simply cut that user off, shut down the server, etc.  Any system where the server can determine future rolls in a deterministic way, even in a small fractions of the plays, is not provably fair because you cannot force the casino to keep playing.

It's getting repetitive now, we're stuck in a loop it seems.

Don't you understand that the only thing the server can determine for each bet is the rolled number ? The user decides the odds, and all the other settings. So the server cannot know whether the future rolls will win or not (so there is no reason to shutdown the server, cut that user off, etc) -- just knowing the rolls is not enough.

Please think about it for a moment. Also rethink on what you're calling provably fair.

I think you misunderstand the term "provably fair."  The burden is on the casino to prove their entire operation is fair, not just one individual roll or one subset of rolls.  The burden to be provably fair is very high.

The scenario is this, the server looks for patterns and takes advantage of those patterns.  If 0.1% of the users leave their settings in place (odds, seed, etc.) from roll to roll then in 0.1% of cases the casino is pretty sure what the next roll will be.  For example, a users keeps their settings the same for 20 rolls so the casino is pretty sure what the parameters will be for roll 21 will be.  The user has to be forced to change their settings in some way for every roll (or it has to be changed in some way that the server cannot control and the user can verify afterwards).    

I'm sorry, but I think it's someone else that is confused here. Provably fair basically means you have enough information right now that you can later use to verify that all the rolls should have occurred exactly as they occurred (add to that what we already discussed about server seed, user seed, etc). You just want the site's operator to act in a fair way, which you obviously wouldn't believe if I simply said that I'm operating in a fair way (right ?).

The pattern situation you describe is indeed a possible situation, but that unfortunately doesn't remove the provably fair status. But the big issue with this conspiracy theory is that it takes a single user to take the entire bankroll if such thing is in place. The users would start noticing how every default seed pair are behaving, and then take advantage of that to win all the bankroll. Forcing some kind of change (please be more specific) for every roll doesn't fully eliminate that, and at the same time it makes much harder for the player to verify the provably fair status.

[dooglus]

Under this scheme each user would be required to provide a new seed for each and every roll.  If some users did not change their seed from roll to roll then the server could determine the outcome several rolls in the future (in those specific cases) and simply cut that user off, shut down the server, etc.  Any system where the server can determine future rolls in a deterministic way, even in a small fractions of the plays, is not provably fair because you cannot force the casino to keep playing.  

You can never force the casino to keep playing.  You also can't force them to actually make withdrawals when players win.  There's a limit to how far provably fair can go.

If a casino shuts down because you're about to make have a big win then something is clearly wrong.  The casino should operate within their bankroll and be able to pay out any bet they offer, so cheating the player isn't of interest to them.  It doesn't take much to get a bad reputation and with so much competition, players will just go somewhere else.

Provable fairness generally simply means that there's no way the house can influence the outcome of the player's bets.  It's usually implemented as:

1) server picks server seed
2) server displays hash of server seed
3) user picks client seed
4) play happens
5) server reveals server seed
6) player verifies that play happened according to server and client seed

1 happening before 3 makes sure the server can't influence the outcome, because the client seed changes everything
2 makes sure the server can't change its seed after picking it

Step 4 can be a single roll, like at primedice, or multiple rolls, like at coinroll, just-dice, ggdice, and probably many more.  If it's multiple rolls, then a nonce is used which changes for each roll in a predictable way, so that we can have multiple unpredictable outcomes for a single seed pair.

The fact that the server knows the player's next thousand outcomes doesn't change anything unless the server does something obvious like blocking the player's account before he's about to have a big win.


My attention was drawn to this thread after a pleasing discussion of the merits of provable fairness on the Just-Dice trollbox:

20:17:13 (194226) <mistymountain> you fuck me this round doog what did you just switch it?
20:17:52 (194226) <mistymountain> bullshit odds went up or something
20:18:18 (194226) <mistymountain> gmre changes uncresd reds i'm not dumb
20:18:38 (194226) <mistymountain> so fucked
20:19:21 (194226) <mistymountain> cherry pick times when its better hmmm~semon seed time lol]
20:19:28 (143789) <dammmmit> lol misty sounds so hard like ASICSRUS
20:19:51 (194226) <mistymountain> don't start w.the provably fair nonsense omg
20:20:34 (194226) <mistymountain> i'll move this to the tgread its cool
20:20:49 (194226) <mistymountain> nitcoin talk
20:21:14 (194226) <mistymountain> 91 percent not
20:21:31 (1) <dooglus> misty: if you calm down a little I'm sure we can get to the bottom of this
20:21:51 (194226) <mistymountain> im at bottom here
20:22:24 (143789) <dammmmit> MISTY I NEED TO KNOW, ARE YOU ASICSRUS ON BITCOINTALK?
20:22:51 (194226) <mistymountain> ok i had a bad feeling should have stopped
20:23:10 (194226) <mistymountain> Big Baller ihub
20:23:28 (2) <Deb> sup misty?
20:24:15 (194226) <mistymountain> it's cool i guess it appears something chaned monkeys behind the curtain?lol
20:25:20 (2) <Deb> misty you can check that the rolls were fair
20:26:00 (194226) <mistymountain> not even i'll post it on the board you turkey
20:26:17 (2) <Deb> who is a turkey misty?
20:26:48 (194226) <mistymountain> you all are turkeys in my book gooble gooble
20:27:15 (2) <Deb> really misty
20:27:36 (194226) <mistymountain> doog is the turkey=)
20:28:04 (194226) <mistymountain> it seemed egit but yeah all in bitches
20:28:05 (2) <Deb> well, at times i might agree misty, but never about math or fairness he'll always win there
20:28:11 (143789) <dammmmit> hey misty want a 0.02 donation?
20:28:35 (194226) <mistymountain> ok oll burn it lol
20:28:35 (193176) <chester> hi mistyASICS
20:28:49 (194226) <mistymountain> Baller to you
20:28:54 (1532) <satoshi> misty why do you even gamble
20:29:28 (194226) <mistymountain> [1ERmwC46]<dammmmit>turkey
20:30:33 (194226) <mistymountain> wjat are you smoking fool
20:31:33 (194226) <mistymountain> goog you nigged me!!!
20:33:19 (194226) <mistymountain> Deb fucking cunt gtfo no bitches up in here y0

He stopped talking at that point.  I think maybe Deb muted him.  Not sure which of his last two lines pushed her over the edge.

[b!z]

How it becomes difficult some times when kids are not studying math in the school

I find it very peculiar that they don't understand it is nearly impossible for the casino to rig the results.

[tonino]

I find it very peculiar that they don't understand it is nearly impossible for the casino to rig the results.

the "nearly" would tell me that it is not provably fair and the casino has a chance to rig the results.
to be frank I am not an expert of the provably fair thingy. but I fully understand what knowitnothing is saying and it makes a lot of sense to me. what I mean is, that if there is a 100% provably fair option why not implement it? because it is to complicated? or there is no need to implement it because the players are not asking for it? IMHO the house/casino should implement the 100% provably fair option if it exists.