MoonShadow
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December 19, 2013, 04:56:52 AM |
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"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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sublime5447 (OP)
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December 19, 2013, 05:15:45 AM |
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A baseball card is a medium of exchange, magic cards were designed to be exchanged are they currency? No, medium of exchange is one function of currency another is unit of account bitcoin is not a unit of account because it is not a unit.
If it is a currency it is going for the the most useless currency of all time... in other words if bitcoin is a currency it is a shit one.
You are a Ron Paul supporter right? Why advocate for something that wont work? It isnt valuable as a commodity and doesnt work as a currency.
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infinitybo
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December 19, 2013, 05:16:01 AM |
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@OP By definition , currency is usually backed, defined and produced by a government or some authority.
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sublime5447 (OP)
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December 19, 2013, 05:17:48 AM |
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@OP By definition , currency is usually backed, defined and produced by a government or some authority.
I know I wish the rest of this community realized that. |
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MoonShadow
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December 19, 2013, 05:33:47 AM |
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A baseball card is a medium of exchange, magic cards were designed to be exchanged are they currency?
Baseball cards are designed to be exchanged as a collectable, not as an actual medium-of-exchange.
No, medium of exchange is one function of currency another is unit of account bitcoin is not a unit of account because it is not a unit.
A bitcoin is as much of a unit of value as the US Dollar is, as I have noted repeatedly in this very thread. A unit does not require an external reference, as you seem to claim. All that is required that a unit exist, is that more than a few people agree upon a (preferablely not vague, but even that is not a requirement; take a look at the variance in the concept of a "cord" of firewood) standard. The bitcoin exchange markets set the 'standard' of price for a bitcoin on an ongoing basis. But in the long term, a bitcoin is a bitcoin in as much as a dollar is a dollar.
If it is a currency it is going for the the most useless currency of all time... in other words if bitcoin is a currency it is a shit one.
Okay. Your opinion is well known on this matter, but it doesn't change the fact that Bitcoin is a currency. You are a Ron Paul supporter right? Why advocate for something that wont work? It isnt valuable as a commodity and doesnt work as a currency.
Just because it may not work for you as a currency, doesn't mean it doesn't work for me. I've used it as such on numerous occasions in the past. I expect to continue to do so; but even if I'm wrong about such an expectation does not imply that Bitcoin is not presently a currency, because it provably is. A Continental was a currency once as well, but that doesnt' mean that they must be 'worth a Continental' today to have been a currency in 1778. Maybe Bitcoin will fade away like so many others here believe, and maybe it won't; but if I can buy stuff online using Bitcoin, and only Bitcoin, in trade; then Bitcoin is a currency now, regardless of how or why that is so. |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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MoonShadow
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December 19, 2013, 05:34:49 AM |
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@OP By definition , currency is usually backed, defined and produced by a government or some authority.
Usually. |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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MoonShadow
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December 19, 2013, 05:39:08 AM |
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"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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sublime5447 (OP)
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December 19, 2013, 06:39:38 AM |
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A baseball card is a medium of exchange, magic cards were designed to be exchanged are they currency?
Baseball cards are designed to be exchanged as a collectable, not as an actual medium-of-exchange.
No, medium of exchange is one function of currency another is unit of account bitcoin is not a unit of account because it is not a unit.
A bitcoin is as much of a unit of value as the US Dollar is, as I have noted repeatedly in this very thread. A unit does not require an external reference, as you seem to claim. All that is required that a unit exist, is that more than a few people agree upon a (preferablely not vague, but even that is not a requirement; take a look at the variance in the concept of a "cord" of firewood) standard. The bitcoin exchange markets set the 'standard' of price for a bitcoin on an ongoing basis. But in the long term, a bitcoin is a bitcoin in as much as a dollar is a dollar.
If it is a currency it is going for the the most useless currency of all time... in other words if bitcoin is a currency it is a shit one.
Okay. Your opinion is well known on this matter, but it doesn't change the fact that Bitcoin is a currency. You are a Ron Paul supporter right? Why advocate for something that wont work? It isnt valuable as a commodity and doesnt work as a currency.
Just because it may not work for you as a currency, doesn't mean it doesn't work for me. I've used it as such on numerous occasions in the past. I expect to continue to do so; but even if I'm wrong about such an expectation does not imply that Bitcoin is not presently a currency, because it provably is. A Continental was a currency once as well, but that doesnt' mean that they must be 'worth a Continental' today to have been a currency in 1778. Maybe Bitcoin will fade away like so many others here believe, and maybe it won't; but if I can buy stuff online using Bitcoin, and only Bitcoin, in trade; then Bitcoin is a currency now, regardless of how or why that is so. Ya I agree that is a problem. The dollar is not currency either and look at the world as a result. Look at how trade doesnt have to balance, currency wars, manipulation, massive budget deficits, the inequality of labor rates world wide, boom and bust cycles, and asset bubbles |
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sublime5447 (OP)
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December 19, 2013, 06:43:29 AM
Last edit: December 23, 2013, 12:20:04 AM by sublime5447 |
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The two examples given above meet the criteria of currency, They were a medium of exchange and a unit of account. They where both definable and where a constant.
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anth0ny
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December 19, 2013, 02:27:39 PM |
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No clue about Bitcoin. Also: North has written that the "starting point for all economic analysis" lies in the fact that "God [has] cursed the earth" in Genesis 3:17–19; this "made scarcity an inescapable fact of man's existence".
Crazy person. Strawman. Strawman and crazy person! No clue about Bitcoin. Also, crazy person. The creator of this system does not seem to see that this hard limit on bitcoin supply implies that, given transaction fees, the larger the number of transactions, the more bitcoins will go to the transaction payments and the less will be available for other purposes. Doesn't understand how Bitcoin works. And the argument is a strawman. Bitcoins are not a "monetary instrument". Bitcoins, like gold rounds, are money. They are assets. This "intrinsic value" argument has been disproven sufficiently elsewhere. And yeah, taking advice about this stuff from "debaser-of-the-entirely-fiat-dollar" Alan Greenspan, is ironic. Pretty much no one prices goods and services in terms of ounces of gold either. Gold is not a currency either. A digital equivalent of gold is still a wonderful thing. No relation to that crazy guy Gary North, is there? "I don't even believe in intrinsic value." Well, glad we've got that agreed upon. "You're just building a new bank." "Absolutely."  "What problem does Bitcoin solve?" Electronic settlement (you can send it in hours or less, over the Internet). It's a digital equivalent of gold. "Those are technical questions that I don't have any basis of knowledge on." Well said. "We need to create a digital currency that emulates the way that the dollar works." WTF? No, on the contrary. I really don't understand what the point is of all of this. Also, crazy person. He's talking about "intrinsic value". But you agree above that there's no such thing as "intrinsic value". "Bitcoin might be a bubble or it might be THE FUTURE, but there's one thing it's not: a currency." Fair enough. Gold nuggets aren't currency either. |
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Erdogan
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December 20, 2013, 09:24:50 AM |
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Many libertarians are hung up on the intrinsic value delusion. It's a tragedy.
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NewLiberty
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Gresham's Lawyer
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December 20, 2013, 01:55:12 PM |
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This is interesting also because of the communal public ledger, where everyone just knows who owns which Rai, even the one at the bottom of the river. Money as memory. |
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greenlion
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December 20, 2013, 02:07:50 PM |
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First, I dont want this to be true but it is.
Currency is a unit.
It is a unit in the system of measurement of value. Just like an inch is a unit in the system of measurement for length.
Units (and there have been thousands of different ones) all have 2 things in common.
1- They are not real. They are all made up, everyone of them is just an opinion. Inch, pound, meter, cat 5, g force,currency --- not real.
the are all just an opinion that we chose to share. We all share the opinion that an inch is so long, if we all shared the opinion that an inch was a foot then it would be.
2- All units are equal to a constant and are objectively definable.
Bitcoin is not a currency because it is not a unit. It has to be definable it has to be equal to something. An inch is not real but it is definable.
* note that the USD no longer fits the definition of currency either. It is not a UNIT
23 pages later the original post is still more or less the meaningless rantings of a madman. Absolutely nothing about this post is meaningful in any way. |
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darkmule
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December 22, 2013, 12:45:44 AM |
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I dunno. I think there's a small amount of signal in the noise.
My personal translation of the message was "I'm a lunatic, ignore me." So I did.
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sublime5447 (OP)
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December 23, 2013, 12:17:10 AM |
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Madman...lunatic... genius?  |
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donjoe
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December 23, 2013, 01:39:32 AM |
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BTC-heads have an historically-disproven belief that lack of regulation produces stability–when we can see time and time again that lack of regulation produces boom-and-bust cycles of an intensity far greater than the central bank shenanigans BTC-heads loathe so much.
[...]
Many economists recognize something that appears to have been beyond the inventors and advocates of Bitcoin. Without direct regulatory structures that prevent an instrument from being used an an investment (aka “hoarding”), any instrument (even gold) will be subject to derivation, securitization, and ultimately extreme boom-and-bust cycles that it is actually the purpose of central banks to prevent.
The more Bitcoin fluctuates in value, the less functional it can be as a currency. The less impact it can have on “world governments,” whatever that is supposed to mean. The more Bitcoin “rises in value”—that is, experiences radically deflationary spirals—the more useless it is as currency. |
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ZooKeeper74
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December 23, 2013, 05:30:48 AM |
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When China EMPs the US, the only currency in the US will be food and guns. Everything else is essentially worthless.
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Xav
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December 23, 2013, 07:01:18 PM |
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Semantic discussion about "deflation" and "intrinsic value" apart, this was an interesting (th)read. I think that bitcoin is meant to be a currency, and as a means of "medium of exchange" it already functions a bit like a currency, but the amount of exchanges ( < 100,000 / day ? ) between about 3 million users shows that these BTC's don't flow like a current (yet). Maybe it will in the future, but now it covers only a marginal area in the world wide economy; i.e. a playground for speculators, early adapters (luck seekers) and miners.
BTW Economic "units", in the far future perhaps, when/if everyone uses BTC's and there are no other currencies, could be defined as:
1 BTC = 1/21 millionth part of the economy.
my two cents ...
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