Black Arrow R9-12 threads, DZ Miners Co-op. Plz move ?s and discussion here.

[philipma1957]

Yes I am .  here is why: he voted against the sale (his words not mine) which means he lacks faith in bob, dz and Thomas to get us a good offer.  

Also he lacks belief that r17 would be good for him once again that is questioning the brains of dzCoop.   So if you do not trust the heads of the coop why hold the shares?

So not selling and keeping your assets with DZMC suggests that you have less trust in DZMC than when you're selling the shares? Logic?
Imo, holding the shares equals to putting more trust in the DZMC, relying on the fact that bobsag3 will come up with a fix to increase the hashrate.


May I remind you btw that the volatile nature of bitcoin also poses a risk to the profitability of selling the shares vs holding them? Bitcoin could very well rally up to a point when exchanging the money from the deal into BTC will result in less BTC than gained from keeping the miners running.

I'm not saying you're wrong, you have a reasonable chance of being right. But imho you're assuming too much, too confident that selling the shares is the right thing.
Have you voted already? If not, wouldn't it be wise to atleast wait untill the 14th to see what bobsag3 has to say and see what the conversion rate is at?


To whoever is in charge of the deal, at what time will the $ be converted into BTC?

yes if the sale is made the btc to usd rate is very critical. as is the timing

  as for logic it is simple I trust dzCoop so if they make me an offer I trust the offer to be good.   they are giving me choice to take cash out and do what i want to do.  at this point to fix the shortfall then need to add about 20 btc to this weeks payout.  and they need to make the hash go to 3.3th.    they have said they can not do this or at least they have said it is too hard to do this.  the gear needs too much tweaking.    so for me it is time to move on to other dZcoop offers.    I have purchased some r17 and want some more.  I have no need to go into my pocket to do this as I will wait for the 15th of this month.  when they give some payout for r5-r6 and r9-r12 I will buy more r17.   if they buy us out here I will get 10 shares of r17 and 1 share of r20.
no buy out means only  1 share of each.

At no time have they said A) we are giving you the choice to collect 20btc to be split 400 ways and we are jumping back to 3.3th.    that has not been an offer to us.

As for being afraid of btc jumping after the payout just hold the btc.  I agree that if the deal is made and btc jumps to the moon before we get paid we are screwed. 

[dbasql]

Without more information I am leaning towards selling as well. If the hardware will not work with a certain level of stability what else it there to do? I agree with some of what was said. You could invest on another GB that has more stability if you wish.

I am not one who watches that hash rate every minute but we all know it has been a struggle. Perhaps it is time to to embrace this sale before we are all stuck with no buyer and hardware that was an alpha product.

• If we agree to the sale how long will it take to get the funds, convert to BTC and sent out? The faster this is done the more it will mitigate risk
• It would really help to get the GB leaders input. Would you guys like to see the sale go through? I know you have covered losses in the past but that can't and should not continue forever.

DBA

[davedx]

I am not one who watches that hash rate every minute but we all know it has been a struggle. Perhaps it is time to to embrace this sale before we are all stuck with no buyer and hardware that was an alpha product.

Me either. But isn't all Bitcoin mining hardware an "alpha product" by definition? Every new bit of mining kit that comes out is fresh from R&D. I'm still not convinced any other hardware will be more reliable. But the R17 hardware does seem like it has less points of failure (no need for RPIs), so maybe that is the best choice.

[dbasql]

I am not one who watches that hash rate every minute but we all know it has been a struggle. Perhaps it is time to to embrace this sale before we are all stuck with no buyer and hardware that was an alpha product.

Me either. But isn't all Bitcoin mining hardware an "alpha product" by definition? Every new bit of mining kit that comes out is fresh from R&D. I'm still not convinced any other hardware will be more reliable. But the R17 hardware does seem like it has less points of failure (no need for RPIs), so maybe that is the best choice.

Yes agreed to a point. I would say KNC gear is at least Beta. If it weren't for the consistency of the one adding hash power to our GB it would be a big loss.
I am also thinking down the road to the KNC products. The price this GB leaders has/had was very reasonable. You would not be mining tomorrow but in the end that may be the best course of action to gain BTC. I would love for them to do a small GB with 4 or 5 people splitting 3000GHS+. My only fear is the delivery timing as we all know. At the rate that these guys are going they may even end up with shares as a cloud mining service who knows.

Hopefully Bob can chime in that will be the deciding factor for me. If he can't because of the time restraints I will vote yes.

[davedx]

Getting close to the vote now, betting a lot of people have already voted, but I'd still like to hear more about whether we can realistically expect the hashrate of this GB to improve.

[jatt2007]

For those who dont want to sell...

Even if bob is able to get the hash up to 10gh/s and keep it there (unlikely) and the difficulty goes up by 25% (conservative) we will never see $290 per share

http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=908350862.43702&dcosts=0&diff_mincrease=25&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=10000&diff_mincreasedecrease=0.1&btcusd=832.64&dpowcon=0&btcusd_mincrease=0&pcost=0&calcweeks=20&dleadtime=0&action=calc

http://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/calculator

selling is the best option!

[Ridicuss]

For those who dont want to sell...

Even if bob is able to get the hash up to 10gh/s and keep it there (unlikely) and the difficulty goes up by 25% (conservative) we will never see $290 per share

http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=908350862.43702&dcosts=0&diff_mincrease=25&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=10000&diff_mincreasedecrease=0.1&btcusd=832.64&dpowcon=0&btcusd_mincrease=0&pcost=0&calcweeks=20&dleadtime=0&action=calc

http://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/calculator

selling is the best option!

Agreed!  As an investor I have made the mistake of holding certain investments a little too long. I would rather this not be one of the shoulda coulda events in my life. I have learned no matter what I wanted out of my investments, a profit realized is better than waiting for more and then watching it become worth less.

To each his own vote, vote for your own reason, my vote is sell.

Regards,

[slayernine]

I feel that we need to sell this equipment as it is quickly going to be outdated.  Best to sell and re-invest in newer tech.

I want to sell while the equipment is still worth something.  Just my two bits

[bobsag3]

Havent forgot about you guys- I am starting to deploy some of my fixes now. Sorry it took so long, R15-16's jupiters kept shutting off and that took all of my attention.

[testerx]

For those who dont want to sell...

Even if bob is able to get the hash up to 10gh/s and keep it there (unlikely) and the difficulty goes up by 25% (conservative) we will never see $290 per share

http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=908350862.43702&dcosts=0&diff_mincrease=25&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=10000&diff_mincreasedecrease=0.1&btcusd=832.64&dpowcon=0&btcusd_mincrease=0&pcost=0&calcweeks=20&dleadtime=0&action=calc

http://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/calculator

selling is the best option!

This calculator is ridiculous, difficulty is not going to constantly go up by 25% every time until it hits 60 billion, it would take many times more than all the asic hardware that's coming down the pipeline to do that.  Difficulty will go up and then level off somewhere in the billions range, maybe like 8-9 billion but it's not going to 60 billion this year.

Don't get me wrong, I think the $290 offer is a good offer but let's use realistic numbers not crazy ones.  I voted to sell by the way, so I'm actually for selling but based on realistic numbers these units should recoup the 290 and then some, it'll just take some time and it might be worth it to have cash in hand to deploy on other mining projects.

[jatt2007]

For those who dont want to sell...

Even if bob is able to get the hash up to 10gh/s and keep it there (unlikely) and the difficulty goes up by 25% (conservative) we will never see $290 per share

http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=908350862.43702&dcosts=0&diff_mincrease=25&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=10000&diff_mincreasedecrease=0.1&btcusd=832.64&dpowcon=0&btcusd_mincrease=0&pcost=0&calcweeks=20&dleadtime=0&action=calc

http://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/calculator

selling is the best option!

This calculator is ridiculous, difficulty is not going to constantly go up by 25% every time until it hits 60 billion, it would take many times more than all the asic hardware that's coming down the pipeline to do that.  Difficulty will go up and then level off somewhere in the billions range, maybe like 8-9 billion but it's not going to 60 billion this year.

Don't get me wrong, I think the $290 offer is a good offer but let's use realistic numbers not crazy ones.  I voted to sell by the way, so I'm actually for selling but based on realistic numbers these units should recoup the 290 and then some, it'll just take some time and it might be worth it to have cash in hand to deploy on other mining projects.

lol fair point, i guess all im trying to say is even if these chips can mine the $290 it wont do so till well into April at best. Where if you sell now you can put that money in the r17 chips and get 5 times the hashing power which will start in february, so there is no sense in holding these chips now, as it has been mentioned by phillip and other members

[dbasql]

Havent forgot about you guys- I am starting to deploy some of my fixes now. Sorry it took so long, R15-16's jupiters kept shutting off and that took all of my attention.

Bob,
Can we please have specifics on the sale so we can make an educated decision?

Is the offer that was originally agreed (price and price to GB members per share) to still on the table as of the 14th of Dec?   
If we agree to the sale how long will it take to get the funds, convert to BTC and sent out? The faster this is done the more it will mitigate risk for GB leaders and GB members. At this point a sale on the weekend may drive the fiat exchange rate up.
It would really help to get the GB leaders input. Would you guys like to see the sale go through? I know you have covered losses in the past but that can't and should not continue forever.
Is it safe to assume the GB leaders will not be making up for lost hash rate going forward?
Will the sale happen if there is a majority vote "yes" even if all the members have not voted?

Will have to vote either way tomorrow but it would really help to hear from you guys on this matter.
Thanks
DBA

[philipma1957]

 
well we are getting near to payout time.  for r5 r6  plus  r9-r12  . hash is still low for r9-r12 about 2.2th . with the knc added.  r9-r12 is short close to 20 btc since it started since nov 1st.

  my nerves get on edge for various reasons 3000 in buy out and about 1.6 in btc should be done by monday the  nerves should calm down a bit.  hopefully . whatever is done with r9-r12 is over by monday as not knowing ties up a lot of decisions for me.



I ask this if btc had jumped really crazy up to 5k. the short fall would be 100,000 usd.  frankly it is 16,000 usd right now.  this is not good. i do not want to address a huge amount like 100,000. if coins can go from 105 in sept to 1150 on thanksgiving weekend. they could jump from the current 800 or so to 5000 by  late dec. asking r9-r12 to run with a 20 btc shortfall hurts all of us.  lets do this quickly.

[trinsic]

So R17 is now closed.

[philipma1957]

oh well.  so the trigger did not get pulled here it time for an easy buy into r17.  and it did not get pulled in time for a 20k plus sale of 1 of the miners r5 +r6.    

and this one is hashing at 1.9 th as I type  instead of 3.3 th.

  so my chance  and all of those in r5 + r6  along with r9-r12 to painlessly buy into r17 is now gone.  Well at least those buys made money.

 I got me 2 shares of r17.  not the 10 I hoped for.  well this will make my next btc choice less complicated..

 hey those that wanted to keep on hashing could still be correct.  time will tell.    

[bobsag3]

I have a series of negotitations at various price points going on right now, trying to get us the best deal.

At absolute minimum, Every share will be receiving a .02BTC refund in the next payout (adding in an extra 8BTC to the payout).

I will be tearing down the entire wall of rigs tomorrow, and rebuilding it software+hardware wise (reflashing SDcards etc), in addition to after I fix my personal november KnC's, be adding them to get out hashrate at 3+ thash in the mean time.

The worst case senario is all the boards are sent back slowly to be remade into v2 (at no cost to the GB), and or replaced with other hashrate in the mean time (Either jupiters I will get, or antminers).

I hope this is enough to at least let you guys know I am working very hard to get this fixed and us back on track.


Also, we have ~2BTC worth of NMC to convert.

[davedx]

I have a series of negotitations at various price points going on right now, trying to get us the best deal.

At absolute minimum, Every share will be receiving a .02BTC refund in the next payout (adding in an extra 8BTC to the payout).

I will be tearing down the entire wall of rigs tomorrow, and rebuilding it software+hardware wise (reflashing SDcards etc), in addition to after I fix my personal november KnC's, be adding them to get out hashrate at 3+ thash in the mean time.

The worst case senario is all the boards are sent back slowly to be remade into v2 (at no cost to the GB), and or replaced with other hashrate in the mean time (Either jupiters I will get, or antminers).

I hope this is enough to at least let you guys know I am working very hard to get this fixed and us back on track.


Also, we have ~2BTC worth of NMC to convert.

Thank you very much for your hard work Bob. I want you to know it's appreciated.

[philipma1957]

I have a series of negotitations at various price points going on right now, trying to get us the best deal.

At absolute minimum, Every share will be receiving a .02BTC refund in the next payout (adding in an extra 8BTC to the payout).

I will be tearing down the entire wall of rigs tomorrow, and rebuilding it software+hardware wise (reflashing SDcards etc), in addition to after I fix my personal november KnC's, be adding them to get out hashrate at 3+ thash in the mean time.

The worst case senario is all the boards are sent back slowly to be remade into v2 (at no cost to the GB), and or replaced with other hashrate in the mean time (Either jupiters I will get, or antminers).

I hope this is enough to at least let you guys know I am working very hard to get this fixed and us back on track.


Also, we have ~2BTC worth of NMC to convert.

   thanks for update.  and extra .02 btc a share  (8btc)  would get us to about a 10-12btc shortfall.  If the shares can be hashing at 8gh-9gh with the labor you do to them  it would help.  if you can sell at higher then 287 a share it would really help.   This r9-r12 has made money in fiat terms.  I am also sure it was helpful to black arrows newer design  coming out in the r17 group buy.

 the idea of it slowly changing into better gear only works for the shareowners if we get a lot more hashrate.  if we get all v2's and end up with the same 3.3th we lose out over the buy out.  since 287 a share gets us more then 2 shares of the now dead (paused) r17 which would be more the 80gh in feb.  thanks for a hopeful update.

[Ridicuss]

I have a series of negotitations at various price points going on right now, trying to get us the best deal.

At absolute minimum, Every share will be receiving a .02BTC refund in the next payout (adding in an extra 8BTC to the payout).

I will be tearing down the entire wall of rigs tomorrow, and rebuilding it software+hardware wise (reflashing SDcards etc), in addition to after I fix my personal november KnC's, be adding them to get out hashrate at 3+ thash in the mean time.

The worst case senario is all the boards are sent back slowly to be remade into v2 (at no cost to the GB), and or replaced with other hashrate in the mean time (Either jupiters I will get, or antminers).

I hope this is enough to at least let you guys know I am working very hard to get this fixed and us back on track.


Also, we have ~2BTC worth of NMC to convert.

Thanks for the effort you put into this Bobsag3.  With your trip out of the country, trying to get other GB gear up and stable and now with what you have outlined here as your plan of action for this group buy we probably dont even see half of what is on your  plate.

I for one appreciate what you put into this.

Best Regards,

[redphlegm]

I have a feeling that a lot of people were eying r17 as their alternative after the refund. Owing to the fact that it's closed (paused?) this could change things fairly significantly for some folks and may change their votes. I would propose, since the options have changed somewhat, that we perhaps reset the votes with the current information. I waited for news from bob but didn't anticipate r17 being closed.