Bitcoin Was Perfect...............And Then Came The Utopians!

[LostDutchman]

Utopians?

Yeah, you know.

Those Mooney-eyed malcontents who think that the World can be shifted into peace and harmony if we'd only give each other a group hug, give up our possessions, wear goofy clothing, burn a lot of smelly incense and bang on little bells and triangles whle trying to convert you and collect donations.............................................

But I digress!

Ah, Bitcoin!

The PERFECT underground currency; a peer-to-peer virtual currency, free from government control and interference; free from taxation if you had worked it properly, untraceable and the ideal currency for a completely anonymous world-wide network of free marketers, buyers, sellers, investors...

..in short, a Brave New World of independence and freedom.

And then came the Utopians who desire that Bitcoin go "mainstream".

And then came MtGox which firm thorougly mishandled almost everything it touched.

Then Dwolla which said it was not doing precisely the things that it was doing, violating any number of currency laws and irritating the shit out of the US government which shut it down quite handily.

Then came the governments, which are here to help you, of course; which governments began to set up controls on cybercurrencies, establishing all manner of rules and the associated penalties for the violation thereof and just making a mess out of the beautifully simple idea of a peer-to-peer method of exchange of value.

We had it made.

They blew it.

Now we have to go through all sorts of monkey-motion to secure and keep our hard won assets thanks to these people.

Maybe next time around the Utopians will be kept out as the knuckleheads and dreamers that they are and a new currency will be established which will remain free from government influence and be true to the original intent.

Maybe.

But I doubt it.

[Gator-hex]

What blew it was the greed of people who wanted to use FPGAs and then ASICs to grab a bigger share.
This led to centralization of the network, which lead to corporate/government takeover.

See: 'Yifu now working with "famed banking family" to help government track addresses'
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=333211.0

I would not call them Utopians, but cold hearted capitalists, ready to sell their bitcoin souls for greater profit.

If you want the Utopian/communist nirvana it can be found in Litecoin network where everyone has a fair chance to gain the same equipment to mine the coin supply.

[LostDutchman]

What blew it was the greed of people of people who wanted to use FPGAs and then ASICs to grab a bigger share.
This led to centralization of the network.

I would not call them Utopians, but cold hearted capitalists, ready to sell their bitcoin souls for greater profit.

If you want the Utopian/communist nirvana it can be found in Litecoin network where everyone has a fair chance to gain the same equipment to mine the coin supply.

You don't get it do you?

Bitcoin IS a "capitalist" venture, designed to protect assests from the greedy claws of government.

Why should everyone have a "fair chance"?

Seems to me that Bitcoin was established to be used by those smart enough to take advantage of it.

Well, it was, anyway.

Financial Darwinism at its best, I think.

My $.02.

[Gator-hex]

I like capitalism, I love that the currency keeps up with inflation, and that it is an honest accounting (true capitalism).

I'm just saying everyone from the get go could see Bitcoin was going to be centralized and we would lose control of it.

Litecoin fairly keeps the printing press in the hands of the people which keeps it decentralized. Bitcoin greed lost sight of that.

[Mike Christ]

The PERFECT underground currency; a peer-to-peer virtual currency, free from government control and interference; free from taxation if you had worked it properly, untraceable and the ideal currency for a completely anonymous world-wide network of free marketers, buyers, sellers, investors...

I think the Utopians you're referring to believe this to be Utopian and themselves normal

[LostDutchman]

The PERFECT underground currency; a peer-to-peer virtual currency, free from government control and interference; free from taxation if you had worked it properly, untraceable and the ideal currency for a completely anonymous world-wide network of free marketers, buyers, sellers, investors...

I think the Utopians you're referring to believe this to be Utopian and themselves normal

You may well have a good point there but I will speculate that those who profit most will be the large investors with the Blackhatters right behind them.

Bitcoin was perfect for Blackhat and still is if its worked properly.

My $.02.

[LostDutchman]

I like capitalism, I love that the currency keeps up with inflation, and that it is an honest accounting (true capitalism).

I'm just saying everyone from the get go could see Bitcoin was going to be centralized and we would lose control of it.

Litecoin fairly keeps the printing press in the hands of the people which keeps it decentralized. Bitcoin greed lost sight of that.

Well, although I pretty much agree with you on this one, I'm not sure greed was the cause but I'll have to think about it for a while and get back to you.

My $.02.

[Johnny Bitcoinseed]

Socialism right from the get-go is evil.  Why?  Because it can exist only by the threat of force - follow these rules, give up a percentage of your earnings...OR ELSE WE WILL COME LOOKING FOR YOU.  Resist and you go to jail.  Resist further and we will kill you.  There is an unspoken gun in the room, always present, always menacing.

You say you want socialism because of the evils of capitalism.  Yet you want socialism forced on everyone at the point of a gun.  This immediately negates any discussion.  Socialism is violent by definition because it is forced upon those who may not want it.

I'll take capitalism any day.  Capitalism is not evil.  Capitalism lets the market decide.  You do not have to force capitalism upon the people at the point of a gun.  Capitalism just happens, it is peace.  It is industry.  It is Bitcoin.

[Impaler]

BTC has been functioning as a pyramid scheme for a long time now, earlier adopters see deflationary profits when new people join.  That means their is a massive across the board incentive to expand the pyramid, everyone in BTC knows this and has known it for ages.   When that desired expansion runs up against the rules of the current financial system anyone with a brain can see that conformity to rules is more conducive to continued growth then flouting the rules.  This is why every 'high-roller' is on the side of obeying the law and ditching the under-ground nature of BTC, you silly anarchists and libertarians have served your purpose and are now just being bypassed.

This is not an accident, it is the inevitable result of the design of BTC, if your a cryto-anarchist hacktivist libertarian types your role has been to fuel the middle phase of a pyramid scheme, but like all such schemes it expands by it's own necessity.  Thus all your cherished ideals are to be crushed by the monster YOU helped create.  The only way a crypto-currency can true to any kind of ideals is if greed is not a factor and for that to happen you can't have this kind of deflationary pyramid scheme, a currency would need to EXPAND in step with it's adoption and maintain stable value, aka it would need to NOT be a pyramid scheme, as soon you people accepted deflation you had effectively SOLD OUT any ideals you might have had.

[Trade101]

BTC has been functioning as a pyramid scheme for a long time now, earlier adopters see deflationary profits when new people join.  That means their is a massive across the board incentive to expand the pyramid, everyone in BTC knows this and has known it for ages.   When that desired expansion runs up against the rules of the current financial system anyone with a brain can see that conformity to rules is more conducive to continued growth then flouting the rules.  This is why every 'high-roller' is on the side of obeying the law and ditching the under-ground nature of BTC, you silly anarchists and libertarians have served your purpose and are now just being bypassed.

This is not an accident, it is the inevitable result of the design of BTC, if your a cryto-anarchist hacktivist libertarian types your role has been to fuel the middle phase of a pyramid scheme, but like all such schemes it expands by it's own necessity.  Thus all your cherished ideals are to be crushed by the monster YOU helped create.  The only way a crypto-currency can true to any kind of ideals is if greed is not a factor and for that to happen you can't have this kind of deflationary pyramid scheme, a currency would need to EXPAND in step with it's adoption and maintain stable value, aka it would need to NOT be a pyramid scheme, as soon you people accepted deflation you had effectively SOLD OUT any ideals you might have had.

+1

if Bitcoin taught me one single thing, it´s for sure the huge advantages early adopters have (also like your pyramid scheme analogy).
This is especially apparent in the various altcoins where everyone tries to recruit new users in order to expand the pyramid.

(and of course the last ones who invest in the pyramid scheme are screwed and left with holding the bag)

[corebob]

What blew it was the greed of people of people who wanted to use FPGAs and then ASICs to grab a bigger share.
This led to centralization of the network.

I would not call them Utopians, but cold hearted capitalists, ready to sell their bitcoin souls for greater profit.

If you want the Utopian/communist nirvana it can be found in Litecoin network where everyone has a fair chance to gain the same equipment to mine the coin supply.

You don't get it do you?

Bitcoin IS a "capitalist" venture, designed to protect assests from the greedy claws of government.

Why should everyone have a "fair chance"?

Seems to me that Bitcoin was established to be used by those smart enough to take advantage of it.

Well, it was, anyway.

Financial Darwinism at its best, I think.

My $.02.

But... the whole idea is that everyone gets a fair chance. And continues to do so.

If not, we might as well stick with the crony capitalism we already have.

If indeed you mean true capitalism, as opposed to crony capitalism, please start calling it a free market.
It think that will cause less confusion in a multinational forum

[corebob]

Socialism right from the get-go is evil.  Why?  Because it can exist only by the threat of force - follow these rules, give up a percentage of your earnings...OR ELSE WE WILL COME LOOKING FOR YOU.  Resist and you go to jail.  Resist further and we will kill you.  There is an unspoken gun in the room, always present, always menacing.

You say you want socialism because of the evils of capitalism.  Yet you want socialism forced on everyone at the point of a gun.  This immediately negates any discussion.  Socialism is violent by definition because it is forced upon those who may not want it.

I'll take capitalism any day.  Capitalism is not evil.  Capitalism lets the market decide.  You do not have to force capitalism upon the people at the point of a gun.  Capitalism just happens, it is peace.  It is industry.  It is Bitcoin.

Maybe I'm the only one here but why would you want capitalism?

A bunch of suits sitting in their chesterfields buying and selling companies they have never seen, except as a number in some excel sheet?

Fuck that. Call it a free market and I'm in

[BitcoinFX]

There's simply no pleasing some folk is there ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ku1A5Ox8U

... Everybody, Somebody, Anybody and Nobody
     
This is a story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.

There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.

Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.

Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.

Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.

It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7TuFy0fcuw

[LostDutchman]

Socialism right from the get-go is evil.  Why?  Because it can exist only by the threat of force - follow these rules, give up a percentage of your earnings...OR ELSE WE WILL COME LOOKING FOR YOU.  Resist and you go to jail.  Resist further and we will kill you.  There is an unspoken gun in the room, always present, always menacing.

You say you want socialism because of the evils of capitalism.  Yet you want socialism forced on everyone at the point of a gun.  This immediately negates any discussion.  Socialism is violent by definition because it is forced upon those who may not want it.

I'll take capitalism any day.  Capitalism is not evil.  Capitalism lets the market decide.  You do not have to force capitalism upon the people at the point of a gun.  Capitalism just happens, it is peace.  It is industry.  It is Bitcoin.

100% agreed on that point but try telling the so-called "liberals" that!

My $.02.

[bluemeanie1]

Socialism right from the get-go is evil.  Why?  Because it can exist only by the threat of force - follow these rules, give up a percentage of your earnings...OR ELSE WE WILL COME LOOKING FOR YOU.  Resist and you go to jail.  Resist further and we will kill you.  There is an unspoken gun in the room, always present, always menacing.

You say you want socialism because of the evils of capitalism.  Yet you want socialism forced on everyone at the point of a gun.  This immediately negates any discussion.  Socialism is violent by definition because it is forced upon those who may not want it.

I'll take capitalism any day.  Capitalism is not evil.  Capitalism lets the market decide.  You do not have to force capitalism upon the people at the point of a gun.  Capitalism just happens, it is peace.  It is industry.  It is Bitcoin.

100% agreed on that point but try telling the so-called "liberals" that!

My $.02.

Phoenix, Arizona checking in.

[LostDutchman]

Socialism right from the get-go is evil.  Why?  Because it can exist only by the threat of force - follow these rules, give up a percentage of your earnings...OR ELSE WE WILL COME LOOKING FOR YOU.  Resist and you go to jail.  Resist further and we will kill you.  There is an unspoken gun in the room, always present, always menacing.

You say you want socialism because of the evils of capitalism.  Yet you want socialism forced on everyone at the point of a gun.  This immediately negates any discussion.  Socialism is violent by definition because it is forced upon those who may not want it.

I'll take capitalism any day.  Capitalism is not evil.  Capitalism lets the market decide.  You do not have to force capitalism upon the people at the point of a gun.  Capitalism just happens, it is peace.  It is industry.  It is Bitcoin.

Maybe I'm the only one here but why would you want capitalism?

A bunch of suits sitting in their chesterfields buying and selling companies they have never seen, except as a number in some excel sheet?

Fuck that. Call it a free market and I'm in

You have no idea what true capitalism is.

My $.02.

[corebob]

Socialism right from the get-go is evil.  Why?  Because it can exist only by the threat of force - follow these rules, give up a percentage of your earnings...OR ELSE WE WILL COME LOOKING FOR YOU.  Resist and you go to jail.  Resist further and we will kill you.  There is an unspoken gun in the room, always present, always menacing.

You say you want socialism because of the evils of capitalism.  Yet you want socialism forced on everyone at the point of a gun.  This immediately negates any discussion.  Socialism is violent by definition because it is forced upon those who may not want it.

I'll take capitalism any day.  Capitalism is not evil.  Capitalism lets the market decide.  You do not have to force capitalism upon the people at the point of a gun.  Capitalism just happens, it is peace.  It is industry.  It is Bitcoin.

Maybe I'm the only one here but why would you want capitalism?

A bunch of suits sitting in their chesterfields buying and selling companies they have never seen, except as a number in some excel sheet?

Fuck that. Call it a free market and I'm in

You have no idea what true capitalism is.

My $.02.

What did I miss?
I'm not hard to convince these days...


edit:
I should say that I did agree with your post, I just can't divorce me from the idea that capitalism as we know it is directly involved in the making of the current delusion we call democracy

[Coinseeker]

Bitcoin was doomed the moment it tried to be free from government control.  Simply because government is not and has never been the problem.  Government is a dependent tool of the broader financial system.  A victim, just like the people, of this oppressive, debt-based monetary system controlled by the capital holders.  I agree that a non-debt based currency is necessary to break this grip but this MUST include government because it is government that can prevent banks from reassuming power.   It's banks that need to be excluded and as long as political rhetoric  (Democrat, Republican, Libertarian) fuels continued separation of the people along these lines, the handlers of this system will maintain power and we will all likely suffer for it.  

[LostDutchman]

Socialism right from the get-go is evil.  Why?  Because it can exist only by the threat of force - follow these rules, give up a percentage of your earnings...OR ELSE WE WILL COME LOOKING FOR YOU.  Resist and you go to jail.  Resist further and we will kill you.  There is an unspoken gun in the room, always present, always menacing.

You say you want socialism because of the evils of capitalism.  Yet you want socialism forced on everyone at the point of a gun.  This immediately negates any discussion.  Socialism is violent by definition because it is forced upon those who may not want it.

I'll take capitalism any day.  Capitalism is not evil.  Capitalism lets the market decide.  You do not have to force capitalism upon the people at the point of a gun.  Capitalism just happens, it is peace.  It is industry.  It is Bitcoin.

Maybe I'm the only one here but why would you want capitalism?

A bunch of suits sitting in their chesterfields buying and selling companies they have never seen, except as a number in some excel sheet?

Fuck that. Call it a free market and I'm in

You have no idea what true capitalism is.

My $.02.

What did I miss?
I'm not hard to convince these days...


edit:
I should say that I did agree with your post, I just can't divorce me from the idea that capitalism as we know it is directly involved in the making of the current delusion we call democracy

I think your view of capitalism is based on the few rather than the many and the way things really work..


Here is an example of TRUE capitalism!:

http://manfrommodesto.hubpages.com/hub/Lincoln-Electric-Case-Study

My $.02.

[corebob]

Socialism right from the get-go is evil.  Why?  Because it can exist only by the threat of force - follow these rules, give up a percentage of your earnings...OR ELSE WE WILL COME LOOKING FOR YOU.  Resist and you go to jail.  Resist further and we will kill you.  There is an unspoken gun in the room, always present, always menacing.

You say you want socialism because of the evils of capitalism.  Yet you want socialism forced on everyone at the point of a gun.  This immediately negates any discussion.  Socialism is violent by definition because it is forced upon those who may not want it.

I'll take capitalism any day.  Capitalism is not evil.  Capitalism lets the market decide.  You do not have to force capitalism upon the people at the point of a gun.  Capitalism just happens, it is peace.  It is industry.  It is Bitcoin.

Maybe I'm the only one here but why would you want capitalism?

A bunch of suits sitting in their chesterfields buying and selling companies they have never seen, except as a number in some excel sheet?

Fuck that. Call it a free market and I'm in

You have no idea what true capitalism is.

My $.02.

What did I miss?
I'm not hard to convince these days...


edit:
I should say that I did agree with your post, I just can't divorce me from the idea that capitalism as we know it is directly involved in the making of the current delusion we call democracy

I think your view of capitalism is based on the few rather than the many and the way things really work..


Here is an example of TRUE capitalism!:

http://manfrommodesto.hubpages.com/hub/Lincoln-Electric-Case-Study

My $.02.

Fair enough, even though it sounds a bit like communism.
If I wan't to work 14 hours a day when everyone else is working 8, I will do so. And I won't ask for permission