[LEAKED] Private Bitcoin Foundation Discussions On Blacklisting, more (ZIP dump)

[ffssixtynine]

I was thinking that if this rubbish is implemented, the network will become a battlegound for hacking and attacks. And with the crap that gov is likely to contribute, those attacks will likely succeed.

The foundation needs to improve the strength of the protocol and its resilience, not bend it to anyone's will

Yes it will and that's why it would be terrible to leave it to crazy money hungry coin verification companies to have discussions with those in power as that's exactly what would happen.

The foundation are not the bitcoin developers though. The protocol and resilience is down to them.

The foundation aren't there to bend to anyone's will, they are there to inform and protect. If they go to the gov and say we need to implement green addresses etc then I'd be all over it. I have seen no sign of that, only of recognition and discussion of the legal issues at hand.

[bluemeanie1]

In contrast to paper bills, btc can be converted to any altcoin at exchanges anywhere on the planet, so how could a tainted version of btc survive? Fiat exchange can be regulated because there are bank accounts involved but btc-altcoin conversion are nearly impossible to regulate.

the other alt-coins dont significantly differ from Bitcoin thus they can easily and cheaply repeat the process with them.

[corebob]

Bitcoin is like cash, and who would use a dollar bill that could be remotely seized or invalidated by someone? just because bin laden is using dollar bills?

In contrast to paper bills, btc can be converted to any altcoin at exchanges anywhere on the planet, so how could a tainted version of btc survive? Fiat exchange can be regulated because there are bank accounts involved but btc-altcoin conversion are nearly impossible to regulate.

Each of the various altcoins could replace btc instantly, only problem being that many BTC owners would lose money. Maybe it is time to get a bunch of the most common altcoins just in case?  

An altcoin could be bought with bitcoins. It doesn't need to be a problem

[ffssixtynine]

Isn't the obvious response to the bolded portion, especially from the foundation and core devs, to implement technical solutions that make it harder/impossible to redlist/blacklist/whitelist?

Aye, so how do you do that? You have a discussion on how it would be achieved technically so you can then know how to design systems to protect. You can also have a legit discussion about if there is a way to deal with clear criminality within the protocol (I don't think you can because it's all in the eye of the beholder).

However, apparently they aren't allowed to discuss it... Sarcasm!

[leopard2]

In contrast to paper bills, btc can be converted to any altcoin at exchanges anywhere on the planet, so how could a tainted version of btc survive? Fiat exchange can be regulated because there are bank accounts involved but btc-altcoin conversion are nearly impossible to regulate.

the other alt-coins dont significantly differ from Bitcoin thus they can easily and cheaply repeat the process with them.

Who is "they"? Is there a central organization that controls the code behind all existing and future altcoins? You are funny.  

[ffssixtynine]

This is why we need alternative blockchains. Bitcoin is going mainstream.

Or an alternative, true, foundation?

No, no centralization please. Existing members of the BF should consider withdrawing their membership.

To you as well, go and read properly and think for yourself rather than just replying to a topic title. The foundation have not asked for this.

[ffssixtynine]

Imagine Bin Laden is still around.

We find out his bank account. It contains 5 MUSD and we can see transactions entering it.

We then see outgoings, some of which are traced to weapons used to kill 1000s of Americans, think a major bomb or subway incident.

What do you think is going to happen? Media outrage and congressional outrage. "We must ban this worldwide!". It's exactly what will happen. The US Dollar being so public is a double-edged sword.

The bank account would be/have been confiscated. That's the entire point I was making. The media, the people, the gov will want to know why it wasn't.

In the case of bitcoin, they simply can't do it. In regular banks they can.

End result, massive backlash against bitcoin. Totally inevitable. I remember people not eating french fries because the French dared to make their own decision about the war! Comical. And you couldn't criticise the war because it was anti American and not supporting the soldiers.

So you'll get the same thing, but about bitcoin. And people will stop accepting it or using it on principle. And draconian laws will come in.

That is the real world and it sucks, but people like to run with the pack rather than engage their brain. You can see that all over this thread and reddit, it's not actually any different.

[safeminer]

This should be stopped at all costs !!!!

[Lauda]

We need CoinJoin or something similar asap.

[Voodah]

This is why we need alternative blockchains. Bitcoin is going mainstream.

Or an alternative, true, foundation?

No, no centralization please. Existing members of the BF should consider withdrawing their membership.

To you as well, go and read properly and think for yourself rather than just replying to a topic title. The foundation have not asked for this.

Please stop giving the same "go read" to everyone and treating anyone but yourself as an ignorant.

The fact is, the foundation HAS asked for this. It did so by disastrously handling this whole situation.

I agree 100% with you on the need for open healthy discussion to be had, specially regarding sensitive issues like these. Knowing how sensitive they are though, obvious care should be taken as to how it is proposed, discussed and assesed. It seems to me AFTER READING the htmls they did exactly the opposite of that.

Idk why you have such a clear agenda of blindly defending what is clearly a mistake ( not even in what's being discussed but in HOW ).

[ffssixtynine]

None of the discussion I read seemed geared towards how we could prevent such financial censorship (and yes I read all of the threads). It was all about how it could be implemented "safely".

And then countered by how it wouldn't work. Anyone looking at implementing it has to do the same thing.

Moreover, the bitcoin devs know that it may come down to them doing something less evil vs an external doing something very evil. Even to do that would be hugely difficult for them because miners will simply say no unless there is a very compelling case.

[ffssixtynine]

This is why we need alternative blockchains. Bitcoin is going mainstream.

Yup this is why Litecoion, in case bitcoin ever gets fucked up.

Whatever they do there will be black market cryptos, but there will never be legal cryptos that don't follow the same rules that Bitcoin is made to follow.

So Litecoin has the same issue, hence if Litecoin stays 'legal' (in the US let's say)  then something else with be created.

In a sense, that's why the whole discussion is rather moot, but that never stopped the drug war and it won't stop this. It's not about being logical. The wonderfully free US seems to be anything but. (Not saying the UK is much better either - oh look, CCTV)

[BigJohn]

That is exactly what the core devs are looking at already. CoinJoin, BIP32 and Luke-Jr's test to incentivize unique address use (which comes for free with BIP32 - just need to get more wallets to implement it!!).

Can you elaborate on incentivizing unique address use? I hope you are referring to single use addresses, not re-using the same address permanently.

I think he means this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=334316.0

[btcdrak]

Their biggest problem is to have a members only forum. They should open it up to non-members, just maybe restrict commenting to members only if they wish.

[ffssixtynine]

-As for Mike Hearn, I contacted him directly about Inputs.io and the fact that it was promoted by the administrator of this site.  I suggested he make announcements somewhere else and no longer support Bitcointalk.org because it was defrauding new users with the ads.  he told me to "go away" and hire my own programmer to fork the code.

I know this is a bit of an aside, but what has the admin of this site got to do with any of us who use it?

If you don't like it, leave. God knows I've got issues with the way this place is run but it is what it is. Even so, whatever suspicions you or someone else may have (me included), there is no evidence. That's a slippery slope you're asking for and is just mob rule.

Not sure what any of this has to do with forking the code?

Agree that maybe the foundation should have read only forums for Joe Public. It's not like anything posted there is confidential because anyone can pay a few bucks to read it. I think you'll get a handful of trouble makers picking up on every little thing (like today) but at least you can't be accused of doing things behind people's backs.

Also, whenever people throw words like cheerleader around they're just name calling and insinuating rather than discussing facts. You're better than that so please don't stoop that low.

[pera]

Reading this is disappointing for a number of other reasons...

Taint tracking is precisely why we need ZeroCoin or CoinJoin or whatever. Do it now.
[...]

I don't think that the Bitcoin Foundation (as a whole) is going to encourage ZeroCoin nor CoinJoin as they are looking for the approval of the government. Although I believe some members of the Foundation (like gavin and gmaxwell) have good intentions, I'm still very sceptically of the real intentions behind it.

[wxg10]

If bitcoins become somehow confiscable because of this meassures, _the_ gold 2.0 will be dead.
Real bitcoins are like cryptonite to super-cleptocrats..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

[masterluc]

BF is absolutely useless private club. They answer regulator questions? Why to talk to govs, when they are dead in future with their monetary system?

Why they hide their conversations? Maybe they also should close the bitcoin code?

I will completely stop using official client when centralized shit will be added. I already don't like alert keys trojan. Who owns keys? Who will protect owner from external pressure of interested parties?

You will not stop the crime with centralization, but kill bitcoin while crime will grow. Crime is a standalone system out of Bitcoin.

Imagine Bin Laden is still around.

Stop spread the FUD about terrorism. Bin Laden and Al-Kaida were created by CIA. Almost every "evil dictator" US fighted with was created by CIA. They created evil and now they scare us by it. How Bitcoin is responsible for that? Fuck the binladen, fuck the US.

US invaded into Afganistan and control biggest fields of poppy. They spread drugs around the world. How Bitcoin is responsible to this? Why Bitcoin should submit its features to US authorities who fuck the world in the ass?

You know what? Governments are the real crime. Stop speak to them. Fuck them off. They will eat themselves in the end.

[lizardflix]

It seems like for a lot of people involved in bitcoin, there's a need for drama all the time.  Talking about issues and possible solutions is not a reason to freak out.  And just because people might not agree with you on something doesn't mean they're the spawn of satan. 

I'm a big believer in btc but there sure are a lot of people in this community who seems to always have something to scream about.  Chill out.

[archangel689]

Does this alert thing do what I think it does? It looks as if it sends the user a message to upgrade with a link? If this is the case and there was a hard fork wouldn't the guy with the key control the upgrade path of those who weren't paying attention to recent on goings? It would take advantage of users ignorance.

BF is absolutely useless private club. They answer regulator questions? Why to talk to govs, when they are dead in future with their monetary system?

Why they hide their conversations? Maybe they also should close the bitcoin code?

I will completely stop using official client when centralized shit will be added. I already don't like alert keys trojan. Who owns keys? Who will protect owner from external pressure of interested parties?

You will not stop the crime with centralization, but kill bitcoin while crime will grow. Crime is a standalone system out of Bitcoin.

Imagine Bin Laden is still around.

Stop spread the FUD about terrorism. Bin Laden and Al-Kaida were created by CIA. Almost every "evil dictator" US fighted with was created by CIA. They created evil and now they scare us by it. How Bitcoin is responsible for that? Fuck the binladen, fuck the US.

US invaded into Afganistan and control biggest fields of poppy. They spread drugs around the world. How Bitcoin is responsible to this? Why Bitcoin should submit its features to US authorities who fuck the world in the ass?

You know what? Governments are the real crime. Stop speak to them. Fuck them off. They will eat themselves in the end.